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Miguel Conner : グノーシス思想を広範な文脈で語る

· 約66分

前置き​

グノーシス思想に関する解説動画を AI(NotebookLM plus) で整理した。

Miguel Conner が語り手。Jeffrey Mishlove が聞き手。

音声対話(by AI)​

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/159730e7-8a2d-499e-88c1-62937293f763/audio

要旨 by AI

Jeffrey MishloveとMiguel Connerの対談を収録したこの文章は、グノーシス主義に焦点を当てています。ホストのMishloveは、グノーシス主義研究の専門家であるConner氏に、その定義や起源について質問します。

Conner氏は、グノーシス主義を体験的な運動であり、古代ギリコ・ローマ世界で広まった考え方であると説明し、世界の創造者（デミウルゴス）が真の至高の存在（モナド）とは異なり、私たちは真の故郷を忘れた存在であると述べます。また、グノーシス主義がカバラやエジプトの秘儀、マニ教など、さまざまな思想と関連していること、そして近代思想家にも影響を与えていることが語られます。

彼らの会話からは、グノーシス主義が既存の権威を疑う性質を持つこと、そして自己の内なる神性への気づきが重要であるという思想が浮かび上がります。

情報源 : 動画(49:20)​

Understanding Gnosticism with Miguel Conner

コメント​

この両人の対話では言及されていないが、OBE で有名な Robert Monroe の 発想/主張 の核には典型的なグノーシス主義がある。たとえば LOOSH(*1) というアイデア。

また、Gurdjieff（グルジェフ）の名前も言及されていないが、Gurdjieff の「人間は眠っている」という 主張/教え もグノーシス主義に沿っている。

要するにグノーシス主義とは

  • 既存の宗教が抱えている 欠陥/誤謬 に敏感な人々が、
  • 超越願望（＝本源、魂の故郷、神）に焦がれて、
  • 覚醒神話（＝真の自分に目覚めることが全てのキーだ）にすがった

ために生まれた産物。

この意味で、「人間は眠っている」と宣う Gurdjieff こそ、覚醒神話というヨタ話の夢を見ている。

グノーシス主義は（既成宗教の誤謬に敏感な人が）陥りやすい妄想。超越も覚醒も妄想であり虚構でしかないゆえに。…これが私の結論。

(*1)​

LOOSH については下の過去記事で詳しく取り上げた。

Tom Campbell が「LOOSH（という概念）は戯言」だと公言 （書式変換）

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Gnosticismとその現代への示唆に関する詳細ブリーフィング文書​

出典: "グノーシス主義とその現代への示唆"からの抜粋（Miguel Conner氏とJeffrey Mishlove氏の対話）

概要:​

この文書は、Miguel Conner氏とJeffrey Mishlove氏の対談に基づき、グノーシス主義の主要なテーマ、重要な概念、および現代への示唆をまとめたものです。Conner氏は、自身の長年の研究とラジオ番組「Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio」での経験を通して、グノーシス主義を単なる古代の宗教運動ではなく、現代においても関連性の高い「形而上学的な指向」または「精神的な様式」として解説しています。

主要テーマ:​

世界の捉え方と人間の状況:​

  • グノーシス主義は、私たちが一種のシミュレーション、幻想、あるいは牢獄のような世界に閉じ込められていると捉えます。この世界は、真の至高の存在（モナド）ではなく、劣った創造者（デミウルゴス）とその配下のアルコーン（支配者）によって創造・維持されているとされます。
  • 人間は、本来の神聖な故郷や真の自己を忘れており、アルコーンによって無知な状態に留め置かれています。私たちの「神聖な火花（Divine Spark）」は、このシミュレーションを維持するための燃料として利用されています。
  • アルコーンは、聖書の神、オシリス、ゼウス、サトゥルヌスなど、様々な創造神と関連付けられることがあります。彼らは私たちを眠った状態、つまり無知に留めておこうとします。
  • この世界とそれに関連するシステム（宗教制度、政治制度など）は、私たちを支配し、眠らせておくために存在していると見なされます。

救済と覚醒:​

  • グノーシス主義における救済は、外部からの介入によるのではなく、内なる知識（グノーシス）を通して自己を覚醒させることによって達成されます。
  • 至高の存在（モナド）は、私たちを覚醒させるために、光の使徒（イエス、マグダラのマリア、ソフィア、シモン・マグスなど、時にはゾロアスターやブッダも含まれる）を派遣します。
  • 「グノーシス」は、神聖な力との直接的な体験であり、私たちを覚醒させ、意識を拡張させるための精神的な技術とされます。これは単なる知的知識ではなく、体験に基づいたものです。
  • 覚醒した存在は、アストラル投射や内なる知識を通して至高の存在と交信し、さらに覚醒し、得たエネルギーを使って他の人々を覚醒させ、最終的にシミュレーションを打ち破ることを目指します。
  • 多くのグノーシス派は、死後の世界での救済だけでなく、肉体を持ったまま覚醒し、キリストとなることができると考えました。（フィリポによる福音書における「キリストを見た者はキリストになった」という記述など）。

起源と多様性:​

  • グノーシス主義は、後期古代のギリシャ・ローマ世界で発展しましたが、その起源はエジプトの秘儀にあると考えられています。エジプト神話、特にアトゥム神話やイシス神話との類似性が指摘されます。
  • グノーシス主義は非常に多様なグループを含み、単一の宗教としてではなく、「形而上学的な指向」や「精神的な様式」、あるいは「シャーマニズム」のようなものとして捉えるべきだとConner氏は主張します。これは、特定の文化や宗教システムに付着し、その中で展開される精神的なアプローチです。
  • カバラ（ユダヤ・グノーシス主義）、マニ教、スーフィー（イスラム・グノーシス主義）、異教グノーシス主義、キリスト教グノーシス主義など、様々な形態で現れました。
  • マニ教は、光と闇の永遠の闘争を強調し、ペルシャからアジア、ヨーロッパにまで広まりましたが、激しい迫害を受けました。カタリ派は、その直接的な後継者である可能性が示唆されています。

迫害と弾圧:​

  • グノーシス主義は、その反体制的な性質から、宗教的および世俗的な権力から激しい迫害を受けました。
  • 個人の内なる力と神性、そして外部の権威への不信感という思想は、既存の権力構造にとって脅威でした。特に、世界が幻想である、あるいは悪しき力によって支配されているという考えは、当時のキリスト教教会や国家にとって受け入れがたいものでした。
  • カタリ派への弾圧は、宗教裁判（異端審問）の開始につながりました。

現代への関連性（ネオ・グノーシス主義）:​

  • グノーシス主義の思想は、歴史を通じて文学、哲学、芸術に影響を与えてきました。ウィリアム・ブレイク、ロバート・フロスト、コーマック・マッカーシー、ハーマン・メルヴィルといった作家や、カール・ユングのような思想家がその影響を受けています。
  • 特にフィリップ・K・ディックは、自身の体験とグノーシス主義を結びつけ、シミュレーションとしての世界、アルコーン、覚醒といったテーマを作品に深く取り入れました。
  • 現代においても、「ネオ・グノーシス主義」と呼べるような運動や考え方が存在します。これは、シミュレーション理論、UFOカルト（ヘヴンズ・ゲイト）、サイエントロジー、あるいは特定のニューエイジ運動などに、グノーシス主義的な要素が見られることを指します。特に、ナグ・ハマディ文書の発見は、現代のグノーシス主義復興に大きな影響を与えました。
  • 現代の私たちが直面する政治や社会の問題に対して、「なぜこんな illogical なことが起きるのか？」と疑問を抱くとき、グノーシス主義のアルコーンによる支配という考え方が響くことがあります。
  • グノーシス主義は、個人が自身の神聖な可能性に気づき、現実を疑い、絶えず問い続け、自己の道を見つけることの重要性を強調します。これは現代社会においてもパワフルなメッセージとなり得ます。

重要なアイデア・事実:​

  • 定義: グノーシス主義は、「神がいかに人間になり、私たちがその足跡を辿ることでいかに神になるか」という経験に基づいた運動。（Stephen Davis氏の言葉） または、「神がいかに狂って私たちになったか」。これはベルナルド・カストルップ氏の「分離した意識」という考え方とも関連付けられます。
  • 世界の性質: シミュレーション、幻想、牢獄（マトリックス）または宇宙のジム（学習の場）。
  • 劣った創造者: デミウルゴスとその配下のアルコーン。聖書の神、オシリス、ゼウスなどと同一視されることもある。
  • 人間の本質: 至高の存在（モナド）と本質を共有する「神聖な火花」を持つが、それを忘却し、アルコーンに捕らわれている。
  • 救済の手段: グノーシス（神聖な力との直接体験）による覚醒、意識拡張、そして自己の内なる力による解放。
  • 反体制性: アルコーンとその支配下の制度（宗教、政治、教育など）への不信感。グノーシス派は「最初の無政府主義者（アナキスト）」と呼ばれることもある（「アナキスト」は「アルコーンなし」を意味する）。
  • 多様性: 単一の宗教ではなく、文化や宗教システムに付着する「形而上学的な指向」または「精神的な様式」。ユダヤ、キリスト教、イスラム、異教など様々な形態が存在した。
  • 現代への影響: フィリップ・K・ディックなどの作家や、シミュレーション理論、UFOカルトなどにその影響が見られる。
  • 「異端（Heretic）」という言葉の起源: この言葉は、グノーシス派に対処するために、現代のような否定的な意味合いで初期教会によって作られた。
  • 現代の生き残ったグノーシス派: ヤズィーディーとマンダ教徒が、古代グノーシス主義からの unbroken な系統として可能性が指摘されている。（特にマンダ教徒は迫害され続けている）。
  • 修行方法の多様性: エンセオジェン、瞑想、セックス・マジック、内省など、様々な儀式や修行方法が存在した。
  • セピュロスとケリポト（カバラ）: カバラはユダヤ・グノーシス主義として、アルコーンに対応するケリポトやセフィロトの崩壊といった類似の概念を持つ。
  • 蛇のシンボル: グノーシス主義では、蛇は悪しき存在であると同時に、知恵の提供者（ジェネシスにおける蛇はイエスやソフィアと関連付けられることもあった）という二面性を持つ重要なシンボルである。
  • 無知（Ignorance）: グノーシス主義において、無知はあらゆる罪の根源であるとされる。覚醒し、世界の本質を理解することで、人間は自然に共感的で親切になる。

結論:​

Miguel Conner氏の解説は、グノーシス主義が単なる歴史上の異端派ではなく、世界の不完全さ、人間の潜在的な神性、そして自己覚醒による解放という普遍的なテーマを扱い、現代社会におけるシミュレーション理論への関心、既成概念への懐疑、そして個人の精神的探求といった潮流と深く共鳴する可能性があることを示唆しています。その多様性ゆえに定義が難しい運動ですが、権力への反抗、内なる探求の重要性、そして現実への絶え間ない問いかけという点は、現代の聴衆にとっても非常に示唆に富むものであると言えるでしょう。

timeline と 関連人物

グノーシス主義のタイムラインと登場人物

タイムライン​

このタイムラインは、提供されたソースで言及されている出来事や概念に基づいています。明確な年代が特定されているわけではないため、相対的な順序や重要度に基づいています。

  • 古代エジプト（推測）:エジプトの神秘主義、特にアトゥムの神話やイシスの特徴が、後のグノーシス主義の起源またはインスピレーションとなる。
  • 死後の世界の旅や危険な蛇（アペプ）の概念が存在する。
  • グレコ・ローマ世界後期（グノーシス主義の隆盛期）:グノーシス主義がグレコ・ローマ世界、特にアレクサンドリアで定着する。
  • この時期、ローマ帝国が鉄拳統治を行い、全体主義的なシステムが存在する。
  • グノーシス主義者は、宇宙を支配するアルコンやデミウルゴス（旧約聖書の神、あるいはオシリス、ゼウス、サトゥルヌスなどの創造神と関連付けられる）が存在し、人間を真の自己から遠ざけ、シミュレーション（偽りの現実）に閉じ込めていると考える。
  • この「シミュレーション」は、マトリックスのような牢獄、あるいは自己や神性について学ぶための「宇宙のジム」として捉えられる。
  • 人間は、最初の生命の木が壊れて創造物に散らばった神聖な火花であると見なされる（ユダヤ・グノーシス主義/カバラの概念）。
  • アルコンは人間の神聖な火花をシミュレーション維持の燃料として利用し、眠らせておくために宗教、教育機関、政治などのシステムを利用する。
  • 至高心（モナド、意識の根源、神を超える神）は、人間を覚醒させるために光の使徒（イエス、マグダラのマリア、ソフィア、シモン・マグス、ゾロアスター、ブッダなど）を派遣する。
  • グノーシス（神聖な力との直接体験）やシャーマニズム的な儀式が、覚醒と意識拡大の手段として用いられる。
  • グノーシス主義者は、この世の権力者や宗教・政治制度が悪に染まっていると考え、反抗的な態度をとる。
  • 「アナキスト」（アルコンなし）という言葉がグノーシス主義に関連付けられる。
  • ヘレニズム期エジプトの神秘主義、ヘルメス主義、ネオプラトニズム、ミトラス教など、他の思想や神秘主義との交流や影響が見られる。
  • ヴァレンティノスのような人物がグノーシス主義の教えを広め、教会内に潜伏することもあった。
  • 蛇は知恵をもたらす存在として肯定的に描かれることがあり、グノーシス主義の宗派によっては蛇を崇拝することもあった。
  • グノーシス主義は、ゾロアスター教やマニ教のような善悪の宇宙的な闘争という概念とも関連付けられる。
  • グノーシス主義は宗教ではなく、「形而上学的な指向」または「精神的なモダリティ（様式）」として捉えられ、様々な宗教（キリスト教、ユダヤ教、イスラム教、異教など）の中に現れる。
  • キリスト教やユダヤ教などの主流派の信条や権威と対立し、迫害の対象となる。
  • 1世紀:メソポタミアでマニ教が成立する（マニの誕生と初期の活動）。
  • 1世紀/2世紀:メンダ教徒が1世紀のエルサレムから来たと主張する（現在の学説では2世紀頃とされる）。
  • 古代から中世:マニ教がペルシャ、グレコ・ローマ世界、アジアなど広範囲に広がるが、宗教的および世俗的な権力によって弾圧される。
  • 中世ヨーロッパにおいて、カタリ派のような運動がグノーシス主義の影響を受けて出現する。
  • 12世紀/13世紀:南フランスでカタリ派が栄える（「善良なキリスト教徒」として知られる）。
  • カタリ派が教会への脅威と見なされ、異端審問の開始につながる。
  • カタリ派に対する血なまぐさい迫害が行われ、数十万人が命を落とす。
  • 1945年:エジプトの上エジプトでナグ・ハマディ写本が発見される。これはグノーシス主義の重要な一次資料となる。
  • 近代/現代:グノーシス主義の概念が、フィリップ・K・ディック、ウィリアム・ブレイク、ロバート・フロスト、コーマック・マッカーシー、ハーマン・メルヴィルなどの作家の作品に影響を与える。
  • カール・ユングがグノーシス主義に強く影響を受ける。
  • ネオ・グノーシス主義運動が出現する。これには、ヘブンズ・ゲートやサイエントロジーのようなグループ、あるいはデイヴィッド・アイクやジョン・ラム・ラッシュのような人物が含まれることがある。
  • 現代において、ユダヤ教のカバラ、イスラム教のスーフィー派、イェジディ教、メンダ教などの伝統にグノーシス主義の影響が見られる。
  • メンダ教徒は現在も迫害を受けている。
  • 現代のグノーシス主義への関心は、シミュレーション理論、UFO現象、自己啓発などと関連付けられる。

登場人物​

提供されたソースで言及されている主要な人物のリストです。

  • ミゲル・コナー (Miguel Conner):今回のインタビューの語り手であり、グノーシス主義の研究者、作家、ポッドキャスト「Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio」のホスト。

    • グノーシス主義に関する2冊のインタビュー本と4冊の小説を執筆。
    • 自身を「異端者」と称し、現代のグノーシス主義（ネオ・グノーシス主義）にも言及する。

  • ジェフリー・ミシュラブ (Jeffrey Mishlove):今回のインタビューの聞き手であり、ホスト。「New Thinking Allowed」チャンネルでインタビューを行っている。

  • スティーブン・デイヴィス (Stephen Davis):グノーシス主義の学者。グノーシス主義を「神が人間になり、我々がその手順を辿れば神になれる方法」と定義した人物として引用される。

  • ベルナルド・カストロップ (Bernardo Kastrup):ミシュラブとコナーの共通のゲストであり、哲学的な思想家。宇宙全体を巨大な心の解離した部分と見なし、この心が痛みを抱えている可能性を示唆した人物として引用される。

  • アイザック・ルリア (Isaac Luria):カバラの思想家。最初の生命の木が壊れて神聖な火花が創造物に落ちたという考えの提唱者として引用される（ユダヤ・グノーシス主義に関連して）。

  • アトゥム (Atum):古代エジプトの創造神。元の神話がグノーシス主義の起源と関連付けられる人物。

  • アペプ (Apophis):古代エジプト神話における蛇の姿をした混沌の神。死後の世界の旅の危険として言及され、グノーシス主義のデミウルゴスやアルコンと比較される。

  • ダニー・ニューマン (Danny Newman):ミシュラブが最近インタビューした人物。ネイティブアメリカンのミシシッピアン文化における魂の旅や蛇の重要性について書いた人物として言及される。

  • アシェラ (Asherah):古代ヘブライのシャマニズム的伝統における女神。グノーシス主義者がその伝統の元の継承者であると主張した人物として言及される。

  • ヤハウェ (Yahweh):聖書の神。グノーシス主義者が「偽りの神」デミウルゴスと関連付けた人物として言及される。

  • エノク (Enoch):ユダヤ教の伝統における人物。堕落した天使が世界を支配し、物事を台無しにしているという「エノク書」の記述がグノーシス主義に影響を与えたとして言及される。

  • アヌンナキ (Anunnaki):メソポタミア神話の神々。人間を農民や奴隷として利用したという神話がグノーシス主義に影響を与えたとして言及される。

  • プロメテウス (Prometheus):ギリシャ神話の人物。ゼウスが人間を奴隷として創造し、プロメテウスが人間への啓示者となった神話がグノーシス主義に影響を与えたとして言及される。

  • ゾロアスター (Zoroaster):ゾロアスター教の開祖。光の使徒の一人として、またグノーシス主義（特にマニ教）に影響を与えた善悪の闘争の概念に関連して言及される。

  • パウロ (Paul):キリスト教の使徒。彼が「この世の神」や「権力と首脳（アルコン）」について言及した記述がグノーシス主義に影響を与えたとして言及される。

  • イエス (Jesus):キリスト教の創始者。グノーシス主義において光の使徒、あるいは人間を覚醒させるための教師として捉えられ、福音書（特にトマスによる福音書やフィリポによる福音書）に描かれる姿が正統派キリスト教と異なると言及される。

  • マグダラのマリア (Mary Magdalene):キリスト教の人物。グノーシス主義において神聖な女性像や光の使徒として捉えられ、イシスとも比較される。

  • ソフィア (Sophia):グノーシス主義における神聖な女性像（英知を擬人化した存在）。光の使徒の一人として、またイシスとも比較される。

  • シモン・マグス (Simon Magus):初期キリスト教期の人物。光の使徒の一人として言及される。

  • ブッダ (Buddha):仏教の開祖。光の使徒の一人として言及される。

  • ヴァレンティノス (Valentinus):グノーシス主義の指導者。初期の体系的な哲学者の一人と見なされ、ローマで活動し、ほとんどローマ司教（教皇）になったと言及される。教会内に潜伏して活動した人物として描かれる。

  • ピタゴラス (Pythagoras):古代ギリシャの哲学者、数学者。グノーシス主義者の detractor からネオ・ピタゴラス派と呼ばれた人物。小グループ、一人のヒエロファント、儀式、菜食主義などがグノーシス主義との類似点として挙げられる。エジプトでシステムを学んだと言及される。

  • プロティノス (Plotinus):ネオプラトニズムの哲学者。アレクサンドリアで活動し、グノーシス主義者と交流があったが、彼らの世界や神々への否定的な見解、啓示への傾倒などに反対した人物として言及される。しかし、グノーシス主義者を友人とも呼んでいた。

  • ディラー・バーン (Diller-Byrne):学者。プロティノスがグノーシス主義のテキストに答えたり、そこから借りたりしながら自らの神学を構築したと述べた人物として引用される。

  • マニ (Mani):マニ教の開祖。メソポタミア出身で、アルキサイト運動の一部であったと言及される。光と闇の王国の概念、原人アダム・カドモンの神話など、マニ教の宇宙論を提唱した人物。ペルシャ帝国で迫害され、処刑された。

  • エイプリル・デ・コニック (April DeConick):学者。グノーシス主義を宗教ではなく、「形而上学的な指向」または「精神的なモダリティ（様式）」として捉えるべきだと主張した人物として引用される。

  • ゲルショム・ショーレム (Gershom Scholem):学者。カバラはユダヤ・グノーシス主義であると多くを著述した人物として引用される。

  • ディゲネス (Diogenes):古代ギリシャの哲学者。グノーシス主義者より前に存在した最初のアナキストとして言及される。

  • サダム (Saddam):イラクの政治家。メンダ教徒を迫害した人物として言及される。

  • ISIS:過激派組織。メンダ教徒を迫害した存在として言及される。

  • フィリップ・K・ディック (Philip K. Dick):SF作家。グノーシス主義に強く影響を受け、彼の作品や個人的な体験（2-3-74体験）がグノーシス主義的な解釈と関連付けられる人物。

  • ウィリアム・ブレイク (William Blake):詩人、画家。彼の宇宙論がグノーシス主義と類似しており、スウェーデンボルグの影響を受けつつもグノーシス主義に触れた人物として言及される。

  • ロバート・フロスト (Robert Frost):詩人。彼の詩「デミウルゴスの笑い」などがグノーシス主義の影響を示唆すると言及される。

  • コーマック・マッカーシー (Cormac McCarthy):作家。公然とグノーシス主義に影響を受けていると言及される。

  • ハーマン・メルヴィル (Herman Melville):作家。『白鯨』の著者。グノーシス主義に強く影響を受け、カタリ派についての詩も書いた人物。『白鯨』をグノーシス主義的な視点から見ると、白鯨はデミウルゴスとして捉えられると示唆される。

  • カール・ユング (Carl Jung):精神科医、心理学者。グノーシス主義に強く影響を受け、彼の「赤の書」のビジョンがグノーシス主義と類似していることに気づいた人物として言及される。

  • フィリップ・プルマン (Philip Pullman):作家。「ライラの冒険」シリーズ（彼の暗い物質）がグノーシス主義に強く基づいていると言及される。

  • ゼヌー (Xenu):サイエントロジーの概念。サイエントロジーのグノーシス主義的なアイデア（アストラルホームを忘れ、火山に落ちた）に関連して言及される。

  • デイヴィッド・アイク (David Icke):作家、講演者。ナグ・ハマディ写本に大きく基づくグル的な役割を担う人物として言及される（ネオ・グノーシス主義に関連して）。

  • ジョン・ラム・ラッシュ (John Lamb Lash):作家、講演者。ナグ・ハマディ写本に大きく基づくグル的な役割を担う人物として言及される（ネオ・グノーシス主義に関連して）。

このリストは、提供されたソースで直接的または間接的に言及されている人物を網羅しています。

文字起こし

(文字起こし。Miguel Conner が語り手。Jeffrey Mishlove が聞き手)

Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Our topic today is masticism. (0:01:38)

My guest, Miguel Conner, is the host of the Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio channel on YouTube and elsewhere. He is, in that capacity, the author of two books of interviews with leading scholars on the field of gnosticism. In addition, he's written four novels. On top of that, he was recently interviewed here on New Thinking Allowed about his newest book, The Occult Elvis, The Mystical and Magical Life of the King. I'm going to link to that interview. (0:02:19)

If you haven't watched it, I think you'll enjoy it very much. So, if you have a computer that can capture the link, it will be in the upper right-hand corner of your screen. Miguel lives in Illinois, near Chicago, I think. Now, I'll switch over to the internet video. Welcome, Miguel. It is a pleasure to be with you today, once again. Once again, for the sequel. (0:02:51)

Glad to be here and thanks for having me on, Jeffrey. It's a pleasure. In our previous interview, of course, we focused mostly on an American pop star icon, Elvis Presley. So, we didn't really get into your, I guess it's fair to call it your primary interest of gnosticism. I'm really looking forward to digging into that today because I have many questions about gnosticism. (0:03:23)

It's a confusing subject. So, let's start with your definition. What is gnosticism? Yes, I think I can clarify a lot of the misconceptions as I've been doing this for so long. I was confused for years. I thought I was listening to jazz like only I'll get it or, you know, yeah, it's different for everybody. (0:03:43)

But it is an experiential movement, which we must understand. But I would say gnosticism is a tradition that really took hold in the Greco-Roman world in late, late antiquity. And it posits, in short, well, let me back up. I always like what scholar Stephen Davis said. Gnosticism is how God became human and how we can become God if we retrace the steps. (0:04:09)

You see that in Gnostic Gospels like the Gospel of Thomas and so forth. It says the way of ascent is a way of descent. How we went back, and I sometimes say very in a cheeky way, it's more like how God went crazy and became us. I always think of that great South African film, The Gods Must Be Crazy, that probably only you and I in our generation knows about. (0:04:36)

But, and I always enjoyed what Bernardo Kastrup said, a mutual guest of ours. He always talked about how we're just disassociative parts of this giant mind. That's what the whole of creation is. And he always said, he always thought maybe this mind is in pain. It's trying to figure things out. That's why it spent the last 17 billion years exploring different things and finally became human to see if it can figure out or experience itself. (0:05:09)

But in short, Gnosticism posits that we live in a sort of simulation, perhaps illusion. They had different views. Some said that this was a prison a la Matrix. Others said this is more of a cosmic gym, a place where we learn about ourselves, learn about our divinity, like Bernardo said. And we are trapped and we've forgotten our original astral home. (0:05:39)

That we are, like different reasons, broke up. We can look at Jewish Gnosticism, the Kabbalah, and Isaac Lurian, his idea of the first tree of life breaking and the sparks falling into creation. And the sparks have become us and we've forgotten about that. Plus we have become trapped by these stellar overlords, which the Gnostics often call the Archons. The head of the Archons had many names, but he's often referred to as the Demiurge. And they associated him with the God of the Bible. However, some Gnostics associated him with Osiris and Zeus and Saturn and some of the other managerial creator gods. (0:06:29)

And these beings make sure that we stay asleep, ignorant of our true selves. That we share an essence with the Supreme Mind, this Monad, the Ground of Consciousness. Because they need our sparks, our divine sparks, as the Gnostics call them, to sustain this simulation, this software, this video game. And they even feed off of this. (0:06:58)

We are their fuel, their energy. If some of your listeners or viewers are thinking of the Matrix, spot-on. It's a modern Gnostic gospel, retold again with sci-fi bells and whistles. So we are asleep, and this Monad or Supreme Consciousness, God above God, as it's been referred to, will emanate these Apostles of Light to hand us down information to wake us up, plus these ecstatic rituals, shamanistic rituals, so that we can awaken and understand that we are trapped, we are worshipping the false gods, and we can rise through astral flights or inner knowledge to commune with the Supreme Being, and wake up even more, gain these energies, come down and wake others up, to eventually break down the simulation. (0:07:54)

And these Apostles of Light in Greco-Roman times were known as Jesus, Mary Magdalene, Sophia, Simon Magus, but some Gnostics would include Zoroaster and Buddha in these Apostles of Light, these people who help us wake up. And what the Gnostics used was a spiritual tech called Gnosis, which is a direct experience of divine forces, to again wake us up and expand our consciousness. (0:08:23)

So that, in essence, is a brief explanation of Gnostics. I should further say that it is, as scholars pretty much are agreeing more and more, it's an Egyptian religion, it is a descendant or a scion of the Egyptian mysteries, and it has other features, if you want to discuss Jeffrey, like belief in reincarnation, support for a divine feminine figure, and other features that the Gnostics had, if you want to talk about those, or wherever you want to go. (0:08:55)

Well, this has been already very exciting. I've learned at least two new facts from you already, that Gnosticism is derived from Egypt, and here's one I had never heard before, that it's connected with the Kabbalah. Mm-hmm. Yes, that's the great Gershom Scholem wrote a lot about how Kabbalah is Jewish Gnosticism. Very similar ideas. Instead of archons, you've got the Kelepoth, instead of God going crazy, you've got the crashing of the Sephiroth, so very... and, you know, the astral travels through the Tree of Life are similar to the Gnostic travels up into the heavens. (0:09:37)

And Egyptian, of course, remember, the Egyptians thought, we all have to travel to this, to our afterlife, but there is this snake called Apophis, and so it's a dangerous thing, right? This is a, this is not simply, I die and I'm happy. There's this giant serpent. The Gnostics sort of just replaced this evil chaos serpent with the Demiurge and the Archons. How interesting that you should mention the serpent. (0:10:05)

I recently did an interview with a fellow you probably know, Danny Newman, who has written a book about the Native American, Mississippian culture, their journey of the soul, their afterlife journey. And, for example, in the state of Ohio, there is what is called the Serpent Mound. And Danny explained to me that that serpent is considered one of the dangers that the soul faces in its journey into the afterlife to reach the Milky Way. Yeah, very true. (0:10:47)

It certainly parallels Gnosticism because, yes, they saw these evils, sometimes serpentine beings that could be dangerous, but at the other hand, they also saw the serpent as a holy figure. One of the characteristics of Gnosticism is really rewriting the book of Genesis, although they said, we have the original meaning before the cult of Yahweh kind of pushed us aside. The Gnostics said, we are also the original inheritors of the cult of Asherah, the ancient shamanistic Hebrew tradition. (0:11:19)

So they saw the serpent as actually a bringer of wisdom. And so often they associated the serpent in the garden with Jesus or Sophia. There were Gnostic sects who would have a serpent come out and they would give it offerings and kiss the serpent in the mouth. So the serpent archetype or power was, yeah, it was very important to the Gnostics. And I gather that throughout Gnosticism, including not just the Judeo-Christian tradition, but others such as Manichaeism and Zoroastrianism, the struggle between the forces of good and evil, the great cosmic battle becomes significant. (0:12:03)

Yeah, very true. Now, one thing to remember is the Gnostics were never just making stuff up. They weren't sitting in some pyramid in Egypt. Oh, we're going to create a new religion. They were very educated folks, and they saw what the other myths were telling them. And they sort of dialed it up to 11. For example, the Gnostics saw the book of Enoch, which they quote saying, you know, these fallen angels have come and they've taken over the world, and they're just botching things up. They saw the myths of the Anunnaki and these gods that are using us basically as farmers or slaves. They saw the myth of Prometheus, where Zeus creates man as a slave, and Prometheus has to be this revealer for the Gnostics. They saw Zoroastrianism, where sometimes Ahriman will rule the earth for a thousand years. (0:12:58)

They read the letters of Paul, where Paul is talking about the god of this world, and the powers and principalities. Paul uses the word rulers, which is Greek for archons, but he's talking about these spiritual beings, you know, that spiritual wickedness in high places. So the Gnostics were seeing all these myths and saying, yes, we are really trapped. (0:13:25)

These beings that pretend to rule us don't have our best interest, and their slaves are our religions, our educational institutions, our political places. This whole place exists to keep us asleep, and we must find these even higher forces, this supreme intelligence to awaken and understand how to break free. It's really quite a scenario that's being presented to the Gnostics, or to their flocks. (0:14:01)

But one can well imagine, since they seem to be saying that the powers that be, in terms of earthly politics, and you know, the religious and political institutions are imbued with a kind of evil. For sure. Remember, when they really matured, this was a time when the Romans were ruling with an iron fist. (0:14:23)

And yes, the Romans gave us roads and all that, but it was a totalitarian system. And before that, you had other empires who were ultimately oppressed, and they thought, as above, so below. These are the heavens, and it's simply reflected down here on earth. And the word anarchist simply means no archons, and the Gnostics were known to be perhaps history's first anarchists. (0:14:51)

Well, Diogenes before probably was the first anarchist, I'll be honest with that. But they were, yeah, they certainly were about rebellion, and about removing the old systems for something either older, more primordial and perennial, or something higher. As a result of that rebellious attitude, I'm under the impression that throughout the world, in different cultures, the Gnostics were repressed. (0:15:17)

Very much so, Amy. And we're talking both religious and secular powers. Like you said, the Manichaeans went all the way to Asia. They were crushed. They were crushed in Persia. They were crushed in the Greco-Roman times. They were crushed by the rising Christian church throughout history. We see that with the Cathars. The Sufis, as a sort of Gnostic Islam movement, we see it everywhere. (0:15:47)

Because for, again, the idea that you are individual, you are superior than God, the solution resides within you. Beliefs and all these things don't work. You have to find your own. You have to find and awaken your own divine spark, find the rituals that work for you. The Gnostics were always very fragmented and logist, trying different rituals for these ecstatic states of mind. (0:16:10)

So they were surprised. Also the idea of a simulation, Jeffrey. In the East, it's no problem, right? Thousands of years, an illusion, Maya simulation. But in the West, that was never a popular concept for the most part. It's like, no, this is the world. This is fine. Everything is harmonious and everything, and everything is real. (0:16:37)

So the idea of a simulation really only came accepted in the West in what, the last hundred years? Because of science and math and all that. So the Gnostics were radical for daring to say that this was an illusion, a simulation. And for that, they were certainly punished and for all their other beliefs as well. Gnostics, though, were a very diverse group. (0:17:03)

You're already citing many different traditions, all the way from Kabbalah to the Manichaeans. And the Sufis. I never knew that the Sufis were thought to be Gnostics. Yeah, that confused me for years. And thank God for the work of scholars like April De Connick. We're seeing things the wrong way with the Gnostics. We think of them as a religion and that's not what they are. (0:17:33)

As April De Connick said, it's more of a metaphysical orientation. Or as others said, it's a spiritual modality, like shamanism. The Gnostics have often been accused of being parasitical, especially by right-wingers and evangelicals and others, because they are, but they're not. It's a metaphysical orientation. Going back to shamanism, shamanism exists in every culture, Mongolian, Peruvian, Dao, everything. It's a spiritual modality that offers certain solutions to certain people in a culture, like the Gnostics, traveling to the spirit world, healing, awakening. (0:18:16)

In fact, Gnosticism is probably a sort of Egyptian shamanism, if I would say. So therefore, it can attach itself to different religions and still be Gnostic. Again, you won't drive around and find a church of the shamanism, because it can't exist. Shamanism, by definition, has to be part of a wider culture and religious system. Some have said the same thing with Buddhism, Jeffrey. They say, no, Buddhism is not a religion, it's a metaphysical orientation. (0:18:48)

That's why it exists in China and India and other places. It kind of appears within the culture and religious matrix of a people. So when you see Gnosticism that way, it makes sense how there can be an Islamic Gnostic, a Jewish Gnostic, a pagan, a Christian Gnosticism. It makes a lot more sense and solves a lot of problems, but the goal is still the same. (0:19:14)

Using that religion's exercises and spiritual tools to get that Gnosis, that spiritual liberation, that altered state of mind, that ecstatic feeling, and using them. That's why the Gnostic seems to have all these varied practices, from entheogens to meditation, to some did sex magic in Egypt, because that was what was around, to contemplation. (0:19:35)

So that's why, again, you see Gnostics having such a varied system of rituals and how they can appear in different religions. I understand, too, that there are modern thinkers not identified with a particular religion, like the science fiction writer Philip Dick, who were thought to be Gnostics. Very much so. (0:20:04)

I mean, Gnosticism was essential to Philip K. Dick, and a lot of it was his studying, but he had his famous 2374 experience when the veil lifted, the simulation lifted, and he realized we were still living in Roman times, the Romans were working for the Archons, there was these secret Christians, and he was Thomas, the hero of the Gnostic saga, and we could awaken through the revelations of Vallas and its pink beams to break down the empire, get out of the black iron prison. (0:20:40)

So Philip K. Dick was hugely influential, and there are other authors that most people don't know were very influenced by Gnosticism. William Blake, when you see his cosmology and his idea of Urizen and Novo Daddy and the Zoas, you go, well, this is very Gnostic. He was influenced by Swedenborg, but somehow he tapped into Gnosticism. Robert Frost, Robert Frost has a poem called The Demiurge's Laughter, and his ideas of the two roads and others, you go, he is definitely influenced with Gnosticism. Cormac McCarthy, openly influenced by Gnosticism. And then, God, who wrote, oh my God, I'm drawing a blank, Moby Dick, Herman Melville, very influenced by Gnosticism, and he wrote a poem about the Cathars, and when you look at Moby Dick through a Gnostic lens, you see Moby Dick is the Demiurge, and we're, you know, part of his, you know, it's our fight against this force of nature that rules the oceans. (0:21:40)

Would you say that there was conflicts within different Gnostic sects? Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, one thing about the Gnostics is they did not mince words. You see it in their writings. They're slamming Christians, Jews, pagans, and other Gnostics. It was kind of part of their culture. You know, you debated, you challenged other people's ideas, and they definitely disagreed, but because they were a small group and they broke off into lodges, it wasn't a problem. (0:22:18)

As, again, April DeConnick said, you didn't like what your lodge said in Egypt, you went down the street, or you went to Rome, and you found something that worked for you. So, yeah, there were certainly always conflicts and speculations on how evil the world was, how bad the demiurge was, you know, the exact map of the cosmos and the astral realms to get to the God. Yeah, plenty of that with the Gnostics. Well, there are certain texts which are considered to be primary sources of Gnosticism. Now, maybe that's just relative to certain scholars who emphasize those texts, but, for example, the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas or Clement of Alexandria are considered primary. Would that be the case in your view? (0:23:07)

Yeah, I mean, the Gnostics came, operated mainly out of Alexandria, so they were overlapping and rubbing shoulders with the Neoplatonists, with some of the Egyptian Christians like Clement. So, there's a big overlap in ideas, like Gnosis is not exclusive to the Gnostics. Christians use the term, pagans use the term, it was fine. So, a lot of these ideas, I think Eric Davis calls them spiritual off-worlders. There was this group in Alexandria, and you could probably include the Merkabah Jews and others, Mithraism, this idea of leaving your body and traveling the stars and looking for star portals and going through those star portals. (0:23:55)

So, there was certainly an overlap, and some of the texts, again, vary. I think the Gospel of Thomas comes more from the Syrian movement, the Thomasine mystical literature of there. Some have questioned if it's even Gnostic, but again, the Jesus of the Gospel of Thomas is very different from the Orthodox Jesus. This Jesus doesn't come to save you by his salvific death or to ransom the sins and all that. (0:24:32)

The Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas and the Gnostic text is there to awaken you, give you these teachings. That's what Jesus says in the Gospel of Thomas. If you can interpret these sayings, you will not taste death, meaning, you know, ignorance, materiality, and all that. And you will be part of the living Father. You will be me. The Gnostics always thought, we're not going to wait until the end of the world to be resurrected. (0:24:54)

We can be resurrected while we are in the flesh. The Gospel of Philip, another Gnostic text, said, you saw Christ, you became Christ. By emulating Jesus, we can become living Christ while we're still alive. (0:25:07)

So, I presume, and correct me if I'm wrong, that some of the authors of these Gnostic texts were actually officials rather highly placed within the church. Some were, like Valentinus. He's considered perhaps one of history's first systemic philosophers. He operated in Rome, and he was, he knew all, he was, he almost became pope. I think he lost the bishop of Rome vote. He came in second place, but he was certainly embedded. (0:25:40)

Again, the Gnostics had no problem embedding themselves into the church. He still believed in the Sophia and the Demiurge and becoming Christ and the world as a simulation, but he was certainly part of the church. And he used to infuriate the church fathers because they would go to his group and they'd say, are you a Christian? And they would simply nod their heads and say, yeah, and go into church. (0:26:07)

But then later during the week, they would meet secretly to do their sort of astral flight ritual. So again, the Gnostics had no, because again, it's a metaphysical orientation, they had no problem embedding themselves into the culture, into the church, into the neighborhoods that were around them. The fact that you use the term lodges to describe the meetings of Gnostics, it's sort of, to me, reminiscent of the Masons. And I wonder if there's a connection between the Masonic movement and Gnosticism. I think that it would, I would, Scott, that's a good question. (0:26:49)

I would say no, because the, the Masons believe in the grand architect and the Gnostics believe that the architecture of the universe was terrible and needed some work and needed a little, a little better help from other sources. But there's certainly a lot of the rituals, the Masonic ritual of dying and all that, that are similar to the Gnostics. The Gnostics, when you look at the rituals, and in fact, the church father said they were eerily similar to the mystery religions of those times, that tradition of dying to yourself and going down to Hades and then going up as a transformed being. (0:27:25)

So, there is an overlap with the Freemasons and the Gnostics. I think more accurate would be Pythagoras. The Gnostics were called Neo-Pythagorans by their detractors, and part of it with Pythagoras is you got a small group, and this group had one hierophant, and this person would teach this group and show them all these rituals. And obviously in Egypt, that became very popular because Pythagoras did go to Egypt and learn these systems where, again, small groups, small people, very personal. (0:28:01)

Gnostics were usually vegetarian and all that, and that's, I think, that's more of the model which people have emulated throughout history, even today. Well, you mentioned that Neo-Platonists were in Alexandria, right alongside the Gnostics. I gather that there were conflicts between them, that they didn't agree with each other. No, Plotinus didn't have kind things to say about them. (0:28:29)

However, he did call them his friends. They were part of the universities. The Gnostics were very, again, logical, highly educated people, besides being mystics. And Plotinus, in a lot of his work, seems to be answering the Gnostics, as Scholar Diller-Byrne said. He's countering a lot of these Gnostic texts while creating his theology. Some say he actually borrowed some of the Gnostic texts, which is normal. (0:28:53)

I mean, in those days, in real life, you kind of borrow, you adjust other people's ideas. (0:28:58)

But he did say that he didn't like the Gnostics slamming the world of the gods, even though Plotinus said, you know, the body was evil. He didn't like the fact that the Gnostics thought that revelation or apocalypse was a viable form of a mystic experience. Plotinus thought living the life of a philosopher, contemplation, ethics, was the way you could have a mystic experience. (0:29:27)

He thought the Gnostics were borrowing too much from Zoroaster and oriental traditions. He didn't like that. So, he certainly had a lot of disagreements with the Gnostics, but he certainly had no problem teaching them and hanging out with them at his university. Let's talk about Manichaeism, because that spread, I think, throughout much of the world, but it originated within Persia, in my understanding, and attracted, at first, the support of the Persian Empire, and then the enmity of the Persian Empire. Very much so. (0:30:11)

Yeah, Mani, I believe, was born in Mesopotamia, under the rule of the Persians at the time. And he was a part of an Alkicite movement, which is, again, pseudo-Gnostic, mystic-Jewish kind of group. And he had certain visions as a young man, and he began to preach this sort of very Gnostic tradition, although he seemed to have leaned a little bit more on Zoroastrianism. In Mani's cosmology, there was a kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness forever coexisting. (0:30:46)

And the kingdom of darkness attacks the kingdom of light. The kingdom of light sends this sacrificial Adam-Kadmon, or prime man. The kingdom of darkness devours him, and there's an explosion, and again, we have the sparks fall into darkness. So, the kingdom of light has to send these people, these apostles of light, because the sparks are us, and to awaken us. And that's, again, the Gnostics were never inventing stuff, they leaned on Zoroastrianism. Remember, there is a myth in the Orphic systems, why some people think the Gnostics came from the Orphic systems, where you've got baby Dionysus, and the Titans attack him to devour him. (0:31:25)

And Zeus throws a bolt of lightning and kills the Titans, but Dionysus is there, so it falls into the world, and the universe is both Titan and Dionysus essence, and Zeus is like, we gotta separate these. So, Mani was from that tradition, and he was very successful. Again, like you said, the emperor of the Persian Empire thought this was going to be our new religion, because it is peaceful, very eco-friendly, the Manichaeans were all about nature worship, and vegetarianism, and non-violence, but they're also sophisticated in philosophy, they were mystics. (0:32:06)

So, this emperor thought this would be a perfect idea as my empire grows, but he passed, his successor was in the control of the Orthodox Zoroastrian priests, so Mani was sentenced to death and brutally executed. But the movement continued all the way to Asia, and almost all the way to Spain, and it thrived in different places for about a thousand years. (0:32:35)

Again, small lodges spreading them out, the Manichaeans, like the Buddhists, believe you don't convert people, you plant the seeds, the juju seeds, as the Buddhist says, and you plant the seeds, and you walk away. Those who want to come to you can follow you through towns, and kingdoms, and all that. And as some said, it's possible, probably probable, that the Manichaeans then met a lot of the Catholics in the medieval times, and they converted to the Bogomils, and then later to the Cathars, the famous Cathars of southern France. But then eventually the Manichaeans, yeah, as always, the persecution, and the suppression, and the censoring was too much, and eventually just died out. (0:33:18)

We're talking about very bloody persecutions, particularly the Cathars. It was indeed. I mean, the Cathars lived in a wonderful place in southern France in the 13th century, 12th, 13th century, and they were known as the good Christians. That's one thing. The Gnostics, despite having this sort of Lovecraftian view of the world, and the simulation, and goth, they were always beloved, and you know, Plotinus enjoyed them. (0:33:43)

They were always seen as moral, upstanding citizens, whether the Manichaeans, the Cathars were seen as just wonderful people to be around. The church, the Catholics around them really embraced them. It was a time when you also had Troubadours, Kabbalists. It was an amazing place, but it was also a threat to the church. It was also a place with a lot of land, and resources, and money, a place because of the Cathars and the Troubadours where women could become leaders, and hold land, you know, all the stuff that we can't have because we can't have independent thinking, and everybody have agency, God forbid. (0:34:26)

So, the church came down upon it. Most people don't know that the Inquisition started with the Cathars. It was created to destroy the Cathars, so it worked. Hundreds of thousands of people lost their lives, and then the Inquisition was like, you know, you create a monster, a monster needs victims, so let's move on to Jews and witches, and the Inquisition just kept going. (0:34:53)

Let's talk about what you have called Neo-Gnosticism. I recall in our last interview, you referred to yourself as a Neo-Gnostic. More or less. I usually just call myself a heretic. (0:34:59)

That's the term heretic was invented in the context that we know today to deal with the Gnostics. It used to mean a school of thought, or a speciality, but the early church was like, heretics are bad and these are the Gnostics. I think it works better. Plus, there is one, maybe two, unbroken chains of Gnosticism from Greco-Roman times. (0:35:28)

One could be the Yesidi, and the other one is the Mendean. Scholars are pushing back their creation. The Mendean said we came from 1st century Jerusalem. Scholars think maybe 2nd century now, and they are the only unbroken line of these classical Gnostics. And Mendean means Gnostic. Mendeanism means Gnosticism. So, out of respect for these poor people that are still being persecuted, even today. (0:35:56)

I mean, we have seen what Saddam and ISIS did to them in Iraq and other places, and just peaceful, loving mystics. Out of respect, I don't want to call myself a Gnostic because I feel that we still have living Gnostics today, as guarded as they are. Would you say there is a neo-Gnostic movement? For example, I don't know if it's still being published, but there was the Gnostic magazine. (0:36:26)

Great magazine. There is, and it has appeared throughout history, even after the Cathars were wiped out. It's appeared in literature, through the writers I've shown you, even Philip Pullman and his Dark Materials, very based on Gnosticism. Philip K. Carl Jung, extremely influenced by Gnosticism, his Red Book Visions. He had studied the Gnostic, but after his Red Book Visions, he realized this is just like Gnosticism, and he went to explore. (0:36:55)

And there are sects, I think, are neo-Gnostic. Some are good, some aren't very good, Jeffrey, and your mileage may vary, but Heaven's Gate, I have to admit, Heaven's Gate was a neo-Gnostic movement. We're going to leave the flesh, and go to this comet, and ascend to a higher place, and this place is an evil simulation. (0:37:20)

Scientology certainly has a lot of Gnostic ideas, that Xenu, and we fell into the volcano and forgot our astral home, and all this good stuff. And I think, again, as many have said, the Gnostics are almost like an ancient UFO cult, because they didn't just believe that we're going to travel the Zodiac, like Mithras and Neoplaton, they thought, we're going through these astral, these portals, like Virgo or Draco, and we're going to go to the final frontier. (0:37:51)

So a lot of these UFO cults and sci-fi cults definitely have a lot of Gnostic features. And you look at the work of David Icke, John Lamb Lash, and others who have kind of taken this guru role, and it's very Gnostic. In fact, they base themselves a lot on the Nag Hammadi Library, that treasure trove of Gnostic texts that was found in 1945 in Upper Egypt. So there are sects that appear today that I would call Neo-Gnostic, and they are directly mainlining Gnostic tradition, but giving it a more modern sci-fi UFO flavor, if you would. (0:38:25)

When we talk about Gnosis or direct revelation without the mediation of a community or a priesthood, that in itself would be threatening to various religious authorities. But then when you add the idea that the secular rulers are actually under the influence of evil archons, it creates, I would call it a revolutionary mentality amongst the Gnostics. Yeah, and it's very mental. (0:39:04)

I mean, the Gnostics were always pacifists, but ideas are the most threatening thing to the powers that be. And again, they were looking at the Romans, they were looking at the Catholic Church and saying, there's something wrong with this place. They were looking at Jesus in the Bible when Satan says, I rule every kingdom in this world. And again, Paul, this idea that these powers and principalities were running the show. (0:39:26)

And I mean, we look today and we see politicians and we scratch our head and we go, why are you doing this? There's no logic. Sometimes there's no logical reason, Jeffrey. And you go, there has to be something pulling the strings because this is making humanity worse. (0:39:43)

This is making our children less safe. And we go, and the Gnostics were saying this for centuries. It's like, what's going on? At some point we got to bring in some supernatural reasons, right? The counterpoint to that argument is that the challenges that we face in life, the hardships and the suffering that is imposed on us is ultimately for our own benefit. Some Gnostics would agree with that, like the Hermeticists, Valentinians. Others said, no, we got to break the system. (0:40:16)

We got to rage against the machine, as the saying says. But I think ultimately it was all about waking up in ignorance. The Gospel of Philip, I think, nails the Gnostic idea. It says the mother of all sin is ignorance. That's what the Gnostics hated. They thought that the opposite of good was ignorance. Any human being who becomes awakened, who becomes conscious, who realizes what the universe is about, that there are higher powers and the best parts of humanity, by default, will become empathetic, will become kind, because it's kind of self-serving, right? We humans, when we work together and we care for each other, we are the best. (0:41:04)

When we take care of nature, things work out. So the Gnostics were always, don't be ignorant, awaken, expand your conscience, see the world for what it is, and then lean into it. With regard to the idea that Gnosticism originated in Egypt, are there particular Egyptian sects that it goes back to? The myth of Atum, the original myth of Atum, probably would be likely. (0:41:36)

This idea that there was just, you know, watery energy. The Gnostics are always using watery imagery when they're describing the heavenly realms, and this giant snake shifts into consciousness. Again, the Gnostics were obsessed with serpents and serpent motifs, whether they were bad serpents or good serpents. And then Atum comes and he's lonely, and he inseminates his own mouth, and the gods come out. (0:42:02)

And in the myth, he becomes sad about existence, and he starts crying, and we humans are the tears of Atum. We're the sadness of God, which kind of makes sense, and so forth. So I think that the myth of Atum and all that really coincides with what the Gnostics were doing, or what part of the Egyptian matrix they were doing. (0:42:21)

I mean, Isis certainly has a lot of characteristics with their goddess Sophia and Mary Magdalene. There's a lot of parallels to that. So yeah, definitely. But it was always the mysteries, right? The inner work, the hidden parts of the Egyptian culture, the mystic part, which was dying out in the Greco-Roman world. And some scholars said it simply got repackaged as the Hermeticists, the Gnostics, and maybe the Neoplatonists. In a way, all of these different traditions kind of became interpenetrating with each other. (0:43:00)

We talk about Hermeticism, or the perennial philosophy, or the Western esoteric tradition. It's kind of a mixture of Neoplatonism, and Gnosticism, and Kabbalah, and alchemy, and astrology, sort of all lumped together. (0:43:13)

Pete Yeah, well, I mean, think of Alexandria. That was the seat of knowledge, the library, the culture. The Buddhists were in Alexandria. So, you have this wonderful stew in those days. So, of course, they're talking in the town squares and universities, and they're borrowing alchemical texts and all that. So, of course, there was a later on, yeah, Alexandria Falls, but then you have places like Baghdad and Florence. And again, these ideas are coming together, Gnosticism, alchemy, Hermeticism, and it continues through these places of knowledge, and art, and mysticism. (0:43:59)

So, I don't know what it is today, Jeffrey. The internet, I don't know. Jeffrey Miguel, what drew you to become such a, I would have to say, a scholar of Gnosticism? Jeffrey Well, I was always a spiritual hitchhiker, as I like to say. I was raised Roman Catholic, but my mom was very ecumenical. My dad was a classic atheist. (0:44:24)

He was open to the idea of the world, but he just didn't care. He's like, don't talk to me until I die. So, I was allowed, even as a young person, to explore. And I studied Hinduism, I went to ashrams, Buddhism. I tried different things, looking for the bigger answers in life, and also how to, things that would work with my trauma. (0:44:42)

Gnosticism is about healing, it's shamanistic, and they talk about these exercises will heal your personal trauma, your cosmic trauma. What did Buddha say? As soon as the baby comes out, he cries because he's wise. Birth is a trauma, and the cosmic trauma of the universe falling apart. So, these ideas really, I was looking for healing, I was looking for the answers of evil, what happens when we die, the usual stuff, and also what I felt was left out of Christianity. Again, the idea that the serpent was a good guy, that there was a divine feminine, that Jesus was not, was more, there was a cosmic Christ, that reincarnation worked with Christianity. So, all these questions I worked out for, personally for me, to each his own. (0:45:34)

I don't judge anybody's journey, it's your journey, but it worked for me. And I know it has holes in it, but every system has holes in it. And I like the idea that Gnosticism stresses, it has to be experiential. You can have all this knowledge, but at the end of the day, you have to find a way to alter your state of mind and leave your egoic self. (0:45:56)

So, all these things works for me with Gnosticism. Well, you've been hosting the Aeon Byte radio program and interviewing people, I think, for about a decade. What do you think Gnosticism offers to modern people, to your listeners and viewers and readers? Well, I hope they find their own path, that's what I always say. And I hope that they find that they do have a purpose, that the divine does reside within them, that they have so much potential that they can't even believe it. They can change the world, we can all change the world. (0:46:33)

And that they should ask questions because the reality that has been given to us is not the true reality. Question everything, like people did in the 60s and 70s. Question your religions, question your political systems. Don't accept, don't get comfortable. Keep questioning, breaking down reality and eventually the veils will lift and you will find a better reality that is more experiential. (0:47:07)

And again, find your purpose in this world. Become your own Christ, as the Gnostic Jesus says. (0:47:08)

Well, Miguel Conner, this has been refreshing and enlightening. I've certainly learned quite a bit about Gnosticism. I didn't know, even though I've been curious about it for, well, for decades, actually. So, thank you so much for being with me once again on New Thinking Allowed. Oh, always enjoy it, Jeffrey. Thanks for having me on.

(2025-05-27)