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Michael Grosso : 空中浮遊の実例

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概要​

AI

超常現象と意識の探求

本ソースは、‌‌心と意識に関する哲学者兼研究者であるマイケル・グロッソ博士‌‌のインタビューを詳述しています。彼は、幼少期のESP体験やUFOとの遭遇から始まり、‌‌自身のパラノーマルな経験について語り、人生を通してその現象を探求するきっかけとなった出来事‌‌を説明しています。

また、彼は‌‌聖ヨセフ・クペルティーノ‌‌という人物を取り上げた自身の著書や、‌‌心霊現象、臨死体験、超常現象の暗い側面‌‌といった様々な研究分野についても語っています。

全体として、グロッソ博士は、‌‌科学と芸術の融合、人間の意識の進化、そして既成概念的な世界観に疑問を呈することの重要性‌‌を強調しています。

目次​

  1. 概要
  2. 詳細
    1. 1. グロッソ氏の背景と研究動機
    2. 2. グロッソ氏自身の超常体験の事例
    3. 3. マクロPK（大規模念力）の事例
    4. 4. クーペルティーノの聖ヨゼフと浮揚現象
    5. 5. 暗黒のサイキ（Dark Psyche）と超常現象の負の側面
    6. 6. 死後の生
    7. 7. UFO現象
    8. 8. まとめとメッセージ
  3. Saint Joseph of Cupertino（クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフ）の空中浮遊
    1. クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフに関する詳細
    2. 意識と超常現象の探求における聖ヨゼフの意義
  4. Reagan 大統領暗殺未遂の予知（3回）
  5. 恍惚状態
    1. 恍惚状態の定義と役割
    2. 超常現象、特に空中浮揚との関連性
    3. 恍惚状態による超常現象の理論的説明
    4. 恍惚状態と憑依（Possession）
    5. より大きな文脈における意義
  6. 不死身の体
    1. 不死身の体に関する詳細
    2. グロッソ博士の理論的解釈
    3. より大きな文脈における不死身の体の意義
  7. Teresa Neumann テレサ・ノイマン : 長期間の絶食
    1. 長期間の絶食現象に関する詳細
    2. グロッソ博士の理論的解釈と意義
  8. 「Super Psi による幻覚の可能性」への反論
    1. 超PSI（Super Psi）による幻覚の可能性
    2. グロッソ博士の反論：動機と目的の欠如
    3. より大きな文脈における意義
  9. 時系列
  10. 主要関係者
  11. 情報源
  12. 文字起こし

詳細​

AI

要約ブリーフィング資料：「超常現象と意識の探求」

本ブリーフィング資料は、Dr. Michael Grosso氏へのインタビュー動画「Psychic Phenomena: The Mystery of Levitation, the ‘Dark Psyche’, UFOs, & more w/ Michael Grosso, PhD」から、主要なテーマ、重要なアイデア、および事実をレビューし、適切に元のソースから引用を含めて作成された。

1. グロッソ氏の背景と研究動機​

  • 学術的背景: コロンビア大学で哲学の博士号を取得。古典ギリシャ語に精通し、長年画家としても活動している。これは彼の「想像力」と関連している。
  • 非唯物論的世界観への批判: グロッソ氏は、主流の唯物論的世界観に批判的な学者・思想家グループの一員である。
  • 研究への動機:
    • ESP体験: 大学院時代にESP（超感覚的知覚）体験について友人に話した際、「それは不可能だ、二元論を意味するだろう」と言われたことに対し、「それで結構。私はその体験をしたし、心の実在を完全に信じている」と回答。この出来事が、超常現象への関心を深めるきっかけとなった。
    • UFO目撃: 博士号取得の5日前に、ガールフレンドと屋上にいた男性とともにUFOを目撃。「私に大きな印象を与え、ある考えを残した。どうしてこんなことが起こったのかは分からない。それは完全な謎だ。今もそうだ。しかし、私は宇宙からメッセージを受け取ったような印象を受けた。『お前は医者になり、賢くなるだろう。これを解き明かせ、相棒。』というメッセージをほとんど受け取った」。このUFOはJohn Coltraneの音楽に合わせて動いていた。
    • パラノーマル現象の進化論的側面: グロッソ氏は、パラノーマル現象が「人類の潜在的な未来の進化的な側面を表している」と信じている。これらの現象は「意識の拡大、共感の度合いの増加」をもたらし、人類に大きな利益をもたらす可能性があると語る。
  • 芸術と科学の融合: 抽象的な哲学だけでは未来を切り開けないと考えており、「芸術がより意識的で人間的になるための方法」であると述べる。科学に反対しているわけではなく、自身の学びと芸術を結合させたいと考えている。

2. グロッソ氏自身の超常体験の事例​

  • 幼少期の予知夢（ESP）: 8歳頃、引っ越したばかりの家で、まだ遊んだことのないジョニーという少年がボールを弾きながら「壁打ちしようか？」と誘ってくる夢を鮮明に見た。目覚めて家を出ると、まさにジョニーがボールを持って現れ、同じ言葉を言った。
  • 直感による危機回避: ある朝、ベッドを整えていると「手が掴まれたような」感覚に襲われ、シーツを洗濯するために階下へ行くよう強く促された。普段は後回しにする洗濯を促されるままに行うと、地下室のシンクの水が溢れそうになっているのを発見し、洪水から家を守った。
  • レーガン大統領暗殺未遂の予知夢: 1981年、レーガン大統領の暗殺未遂の数週間前に、3つの予知夢を見た。最後の夢では、上半身裸のレーガン大統領が元気に回復する様子を見ており、実際に彼は迅速に回復した。
  • 学生による体外離脱（OBE）とPK（念力）: ある学生が体外離脱経験があると語った後、数日後、自宅の音楽スタンドが普段置いている場所からリビングルームの中央に移動していた。直後にその学生から電話があり、体外離脱してグロッソ氏の家を訪れ、音楽スタンドを動かしたことを告げられた。「20、30マイル離れたところから体外離脱した人間が来て私を訪ね、私の家具を操作したという現実から逃れる方法はない」。

3. マクロPK（大規模念力）の事例​

  • 聖イレーヌ教会の涙を流す像: ニューヨークのセント・イレーヌ教会で、聖母マリアの像（または写真）が涙を流している現象を目撃。これはグロッソ氏が目撃した「説明不可能な物理現象」であった。
  • 学生の集団による浮揚現象: 超心理学の授業で、学生が子供の頃に遊んでいたという「ライズ」というゲームを試みた。体重の重い元海兵隊員を椅子に座らせ、4人の華奢な女子学生に肘と膝の下に指を触れさせ、持ち上げるように指示したところ、男性は5フィート（約1.5メートル）宙に浮いた。そしてゆっくりと降下した。「物理的な効果が私の心を吹き飛ばした」。
  • スプーン曲げ: グロッソ氏自身も一度スプーン曲げを経験し、それを芸術作品にして自宅に飾っている。

4. クーペルティーノの聖ヨゼフと浮揚現象​

  • 聖ヨゼフの人物像: 1603年イタリア・クーペルティーノ生まれ。幼少期は病弱で精神遅滞と見られていたが、熱心な祈りの中で意識を失うことが多かった。フランシスコ会に入会後、マドンナの肖像画の前で初めて浮揚した。
  • 浮揚現象の頻度と記録: 聖ヨゼフは聖職者としてミサ中にしばしば法悦状態で宙に浮いたため、公務を果たすことが困難になった。思考読心術の能力もあり、同僚の僧侶たちの内面を見抜くことができた。時には他の人々を抱きかかえて一緒に浮揚することもあった。浮揚は数時間に及ぶこともあったという。
  • 確実な証拠: グロッソ氏は「彼が浮揚したことに関する少なくとも150の宣誓供述書」が存在すると述べており、外科医、芸術家、教皇、修道女、枢機卿、スペイン大使など、様々な立場の人々が目撃している。35年間にわたり、彼がどこに行っても現象が起きており、「数千人の人々が彼を目撃したに違いない」。
  • 教会の対応: 聖ヨゼフの人気と彼が引き起こす騒動のため、教会は彼を人々の目から遠ざけ、より孤立した修道院に移送した。
  • グロッソ氏の著書と出版問題: グロッソ氏は聖ヨゼフに関する著書『The Man Who Could Fly』を執筆したが、オックスフォード大学出版局は聖ヨゼフが実際に浮揚したとは明示的に結論付けないよう要求したため、グロッソ氏は出版を取りやめた。彼は「最も重要な発見を隠蔽するよう圧力をかけられる」ことに抵抗した。最終的に別の出版社から出版され、グロッソ氏は「データを通じて、彼が本物であったと確信している」と述べている。
  • 浮揚と「エクスタシー」の関係: 聖ヨゼフだけでなく、他の多くの聖人やシャーマンの浮揚報告において、「エクスタシーの状態が、超常現象全般、特に浮揚にとって好都合な変性意識状態である」とグロッソ氏は指摘する。「彼らは常にエクスタシーの状態にある」。
  • 浮揚の物理的理論（バーナード・カー提唱の「ハイパースペース」理論に基づき）: グロッソ氏は、物理学者バーナード・カーの理論を引用し、エクスタシー状態にあるとき、夢空間と物理空間が融合する可能性を提唱している。夢空間では重力の作用がないため、その状態では一時的に重力の力に免疫を持つことができると考える。「夢は、覚醒世界と完全な無意識の世界の間の仲介者のようなものだ」。

5. 暗黒のサイキ（Dark Psyche）と超常現象の負の側面​

  • 予言殺人の可能性: ある学生の夫が14歳の時、占い師に「35歳で死ぬ」と予言され、実際に35歳の誕生日に理由なく突然死した事例を紹介。「無責任で愚かな霊能者によって彼の心に植え付けられたアイデアが彼を殺した」。
  • 呪術（Sorcery）:
    • メキシコでの事例: メキシコで出会った男性が、裸でシャワーを浴びていた魔女の女性を覗き見したところ、夜中に虫やコウモリが襲ってくるような悪夢に苦しめられた話を紹介。魔女は言葉ではなく「精神的に彼と接触した」とされる。
    • 歴史的魔女狩り: 16世紀から17世紀のヨーロッパにおける魔女狩りを例に挙げ、いかに「精神の闇の側面」が「少数の人々だけでなく、歴史全体を支配できる」かを示す。何千人もの無実の人々が拷問され、処刑された。
    • 名前の力: 「誰かを魔女と呼び始める」行為が、その人物にとっての「習慣」を作り出す力を持つと指摘。これは現代の政治における「悪質な名前をでっち上げて人々を破壊する」行為にも通じると論じる。
    • 邪悪な存在の否定: グロッソ氏は、本質的に害を与えることを目的とした「邪悪な実体」の存在は信じていないが、「悪魔的な性向を持つ人々」はいると考える。「嘘をつくこと」も「悪魔的な憑依の一形態」であると指摘。
  • 憑依（Possession）: グロッソ氏は憑依の現実を信じており、特に「エクスタシーが可能ならば、憑依も可能である」と述べる。エクスタシーが「自己を空にし、美しく神聖なものを受け入れる」ことならば、それはまた「無意識の暗い側面があなたを支配する」手段にもなり得ると考える。

6. 死後の生​

  • 生存の証拠: グロッソ氏は「哲学的な議論」と「経験的なデータ」の両方が、我々が「生き残る」ことを強く示唆していると主張する。

    • 心身二元論: 身体と心が異なるものであるという哲学的な議論を提示。心が身体の死後も存続することは「衝撃的ではない」と述べる。
    • 臨死体験（NDE）: 「今日、私たちは臨死体験について多くの情報を得ている」と述べ、多くの体験が非常に似ているが、細部は異なると指摘。これにより人々が完全に変容していることに感銘を受けている。
    • 死者の出現（Apparitions of the Dead）: グロッソ氏自身の経験として、亡くなった祖母と、見たことのない別の女性の出現を目撃した話を紹介。その女性は後で、見たことのない写真で確認された祖母の姉妹であった。これは生存の「非常に示唆に富む」証拠であると考える。
    • 太古の社会の信仰: 「原始社会は例外なく、疑いなく死後の生を完全に信じていた」。

  • 「スーパー・サイ（Super Psi）」の反論とグロッソ氏の見解: 死後の生を示唆する全ての超常現象が、自然や我々の潜在意識によって投影された「幻想」であるという「スーパー・サイ」の反論があることを認める。しかし、「自然が、あなたが死ぬであろうときに、これらの幻想を作り出すことで、私たちにどんな良いことをしているのだろうか？」と問いかけ、その動機を疑問視している。

  • 「あらゆる可能性」: 超常現象（サイ）の現実を受け入れる限り、「あらゆる種類のことが可能になる」。文化、状況、気分、個性に依存するが、「私の感覚では、ますます何でも可能になる」。

7. UFO現象​

  • 実在性への確信: グロッソ氏は自身の目撃体験に基づいて、UFOやそれに付随する「実体」が「現実」であり、「この惑星からのものではない」と確信している。
    • UFO目撃体験の詳細: 前述の通り、John Coltraneの音楽に合わせて動く光の塊を目撃。その光は教会のドームに移動して彼らを「照らし」、再び音楽に合わせて踊った後、瞬時にエンパイアステートビルディングの上を通過し「消え去った」。「これは地球上のものではない」。
    • パイロットの証言: 一流の戦闘機パイロットの証言からも、UFOが「技術的に私たちを完全に超えている」ことを確信している。
  • 出現の理由と「核兵器」: 1947年以降、UFOの出現が顕著になったのは、人類が核兵器という「大量破壊兵器」を発明し、地球上の生命を終わらせる可能性を持ったためであると考えている。
  • UFOと宗教の関連性:
    • ファティマの聖母: 1917年のファティマにおける「太陽の奇跡」は、「UFOの現象論」が「聖母マリアが3人の子供たちに現れた現象論」と混ざり合っている例であると指摘。「太陽は踊らなかった。太陽が踊っていたら、私たちは終わりだった。それは不合理だ。しかし、純朴なカトリック教徒はまだ太陽が踊ったと信じている」。これはUFOが「錯覚」を作り出したものであったと考える。
  • 意識との関連性: 多くのUFOにおける「実体とのコミュニケーションはテレパシーで行われる」とされており、超常現象との関連性がある。
  • 起源の推測: 「複数の種類の（宇宙人が）私たちを訪れている」と考える。彼らは「別の次元」から来ている可能性を推測しており、そうであれば「距離の問題を解決する」と述べる。
  • 未来への展望と懸念: 科学の進化により宇宙と心の計り知れない広大さが明らかになっていることに希望を見出す一方で、「気候変動のカタストロフィ」や「核戦争の脅威」に直面している現状への懸念を表明。軍部の一部のキリスト教原理主義者たちがUFOを「悪魔的」とみなし、科学的探求を妨げていることに言及する。

8. まとめとメッセージ​

  • 「探求せよ（Explore）」: グロッソ氏は視聴者に対し、「心とその潜在性について学ぶことを恐れないでほしい」とメッセージを送る。「私たちは並外れたもの、異質なものに没頭している。探求せよ」。
  • 人類の進化: 人類は未来に向けて進化し、学び、生き残る大きな機会を持っていると信じている。

Saint Joseph of Cupertino（クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフ）の空中浮遊​

AI

マイケル・グロッソ博士にとって、クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフの事例は、彼の意識と超常現象の探求というより大きな文脈において、‌‌物質主義的な世界観に異議を唱え、人類の潜在的な進化を探るための最も強力な証拠の一つ‌‌として位置づけられています。

以下に、これらの情報源がクペルティーノの聖ヨゼフについて述べていることと、それがグロッソ博士のより大きな探求にどのように関連しているかを議論します。

クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフに関する詳細​

  • ‌‌「空飛ぶ男」としての聖ヨゼフ‌‌: グロッソ博士は、聖ヨゼフ・オブ・クペルティーノを扱った‌‌『空飛ぶ男』（The Man Who Could Fly）‌‌という本を執筆しています。
  • ‌‌波乱に満ちた生い立ち‌‌: ヨゼフは1603年にイタリア南部で生まれ、最初の5年間はひどい病気で、精神的に遅れているように見えました。貧しい家庭の出身で、その始まりは「最悪の可能性のあるもの」と評されています。彼は瞑想に没頭することで知られ、口を開けたままにする癖から「ボカ・ペルタ」（開いた口）というあだ名がつけられました。
  • ‌‌奇跡の始まりと Franciscan Group‌‌: 病気が治った後、彼は修道会に入ろうとしますが、不器用さから断られます。しかし、最終的にフランシスコ会の団体に入ることができ、ここから彼の「奇跡の男」としての経歴が始まりました。
  • ‌‌空中浮揚の目撃証言‌‌: 彼はマドンナの肖像画の前で初めて空中浮揚し、その後、ミサを執り行う際にも、法悦に浸ると静かに地面から浮上するようになりました。ヨゼフは‌‌空中浮揚だけでなく、驚くべき読心術（ESP）の能力も持っていました‌‌。彼の出現する場所では常に騒動が起き、人々を癒したり、時には自分と一緒に空中へと連れて行ったりもしました。
  • ‌‌前例のない証拠の量‌‌: グロッソ博士が引用する学者たちは、ヨゼフがその現象の「純粋な多様性と数的な偉大さ」において「比類ない」と述べています。彼の空中浮揚については、外科医、芸術家、教皇、修道女、枢機卿、スペイン大使など、あらゆる種類の人物から‌‌少なくとも150の宣誓供述書‌‌が存在し、これらは35年間にわたる数千人の目撃者の一部に過ぎません。
  • ‌‌教会の対応‌‌: 教会は彼の能力を疑い、異端審問にかけましたが、彼の敬虔さを見て「本物」と認め、彼が群衆に圧迫されるのを防ぐために、彼をより僻地の修道院へと移送しました。
  • ‌‌生涯続いた現象‌‌: ヨゼフは死の床でも空中浮揚し、死を迎えようとしていることに至福を感じていました。

意識と超常現象の探求における聖ヨゼフの意義​

グロッソ博士は、聖ヨゼフのケースを自身の研究の「強力な例」として挙げています。

  1. ‌‌物質主義的世界観への挑戦‌‌: グロッソ博士は、現代の「主流の物質主義的な世界観」に批判的であり、ヨゼフの事例のような「衝撃的で奇妙な現象」は、科学的還元主義に異議を唱える最も強力な手段であると考えています。彼は、オックスフォード大学出版局がヨゼフの空中浮揚の事実を削除しなければ出版しないという要求を拒否し、別の出版社から「本物の」結論を掲載して出版したことからも、この信念の強さが伺えます。
  2. ‌‌意識と「法悦状態」の役割‌‌: グロッソ博士は、‌‌法悦状態（ecstasy）が超常現象、特に空中浮揚にとって「絶対的に重要な変数」である‌‌と強調しています。聖ヨゼフの空中浮揚が常に法悦状態と関連していたように、他の聖人、霊媒、シャーマンの空中浮揚の報告でも、彼らは常に法悦状態にあったと述べています。
  3. ‌‌空中浮揚の理論‌‌: グロッソ博士は、空中浮揚の物理的な理論も提唱しています。それは、‌‌法悦状態にあるとき、通常の自己から離れ、「夢空間」と融合することで、一時的に重力の影響を受けなくなる‌‌というものです。これは、通常の状態では不可能であることを可能にする、意識の深い層との接触を意味します。
  4. ‌‌人類の進化の可能性‌‌: 彼は、このような超常現象が‌‌「私たちの潜在的な未来の進化の側面」‌‌を表しており、‌‌「意識の拡大と共感の増大」‌‌につながると信じています。ヨゼフの事例は、このような潜在能力が人類に実在することを示すものです。
  5. ‌‌個人的な超常現象体験との関連‌‌: グロッソ博士自身の超常現象体験（ESP、UFO目撃、自宅での物理的現象、預言的な夢など） は、彼がヨゼフのような現象を真剣に探求する動機となっています。彼は、個人的な経験と、ヨゼフの事例のような歴史的な確かな証拠を組み合わせて、超常現象の実在を主張しています。
  6. ‌‌科学と創造性の融合‌‌: 彼は哲学者であり画家でもあるため、科学的な探求と芸術的な創造性を融合させたいと願っており、ヨゼフの事例もまた、現実の謎めいた側面を探求する彼の姿勢に合致しています。

このように、クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフは、グロッソ博士が長年探求してきた意識、超心理学、そして人類の秘められた可能性を理解するための、‌‌極めて説得力のある、そして科学の限界を問い直す強力な事例‌‌として、彼の研究の中心に位置づけられています。

Reagan 大統領暗殺未遂の予知（3回）​

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提供された情報に基づき、マイケル・グロッソ博士のレーガン大統領暗殺未遂に関する夢は、彼の個人的な超常現象体験の大きな文脈において重要な事例として議論されています。

グロッソ博士は、自身の研究と信念の根源として、人生で遭遇した数々の超常現象を挙げており、レーガン大統領暗殺未遂に関する3回の夢もその一つです。

‌‌レーガン大統領暗殺未遂の夢に関する詳細‌‌:

  • この夢は、‌‌1981年にレーガン大統領が暗殺されそうになる約2週間前‌‌に、‌‌3回にわたって‌‌彼が哲学を教えている最中に見ています。
  • それぞれの夢は、暗殺未遂に関する‌‌具体的な詳細‌‌を彼に与えました。
  • 3回目の夢では、‌‌レーガンが上半身裸で非常に健康そうな姿‌‌で現れ、グロッソ博士はこれが大統領が迅速に回復する兆候だと解釈しました。そして、実際にその通りに彼は年齢や被弾した事実にもかかわらず、すぐに回復しました。
  • グロッソ博士は、3回目の夢を見た後、この内容を学生たちに話しており、数日後には彼の学生の一人が息を切らしながら彼に電話をかけ、「博士、あなたは超能力者だ！大統領が暗殺されそうになった！」と伝えています。この出来事は、彼の超能力（サイキック）であることを裏付けるものとなりました。

‌‌個人的な超常現象体験のより大きな文脈‌‌: このレーガン大統領の夢は、グロッソ博士が経験してきた多くのサイキックな出来事の一つに過ぎません。彼は幼少期から、以下のような体験をしてきました。

  • ‌‌幼少期のESP体験‌‌: 約8歳の時、彼は一度も遊んだことのないジョニーという少年がボールで「壁打ち」をしようと誘う夢を見ました。その日目が覚めて外に出ると、夢と全く同じ状況でジョニーがボールを持って現れ、「ボール遊びしない？」と声をかけてきたのです。彼はこれを「‌‌予知‌‌」と捉え、幼心に「奇妙だ」と感じたと言います。
  • ‌‌実用的な直観‌‌: ある朝、彼は普段しないにもかかわらず、シーツを洗濯するために階下に行かなければならないという強い衝動に駆られました。その結果、彼は地下室の巨大なシンクがまさに溢れそうになっているのを発見し、大洪水になるのを防ぐことができました。彼はこれを「‌‌憑依されたような感覚‌‌」と表現しています。
  • ‌‌学生による家具の移動‌‌: ある学生が体外離脱経験があると話した際、グロッソ博士は冗談で「いつか訪ねてきては」と言いました。数日後、普段動かすことのない彼の楽譜立てがリビングの真ん中に移動していました。その直後に学生から電話があり、彼女が体外離脱中にグロッソ博士の家を訪れ、彼の楽譜立てを動かしたことを確認しました。博士はこれを「‌‌現実から逃れることはできない‌‌」証拠だと述べています。

これらの個人的な体験は、グロッソ博士が‌‌物質主義的な世界観に批判的‌‌になり、意識と超心理学、そして超常現象の研究に深く関わる動機付けとなっています。彼は、これらの現象が‌‌人類の潜在的な未来の進化の側面‌‌を示していると考えており、‌‌意識の拡大や共感の増大‌‌につながると信じています。彼はこれらの現象を単に「促進する」だけでなく、それらが私たちの未来と深く関連していると見ています。

グロッソ博士は、これらの現象が「まれに」起こるものであり、常に頼れるものではないと述べていますが、彼の人生全体を通じて断続的に発生し、彼自身の潜在意識や、あるいは外部の何らかの力からの「指示」であると感じていると語っています。彼は、芸術もまた、より意識的で人間的になるための一つの方法であると考えており、科学と創造性を融合させたいという願望を持っています。

このように、レーガン大統領暗殺未遂に関する予知夢は、グロッソ博士自身の‌‌超常現象の実在に対する深い確信を形成した数々の個人的な経験‌‌の一つとして位置づけられています。彼は、これらの「衝撃的で奇妙な現象」を「強力な例」として用いることで、科学的還元主義の世界観に異議を唱えようとしています。

恍惚状態​

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マイケル・グロッソ博士は、意識と超常現象の探求において、‌‌恍惚状態（Ecstasy）‌‌を、超常現象の出現を可能にする‌‌極めて重要な変数‌‌であり、‌‌物質主義的な世界観に挑戦し、人類の意識の進化を理解するための鍵‌‌であると考えています。

彼の超常現象の説明理論において、恍惚状態は以下の点で議論されています。

恍惚状態の定義と役割​

  • グロッソ博士は、「恍惚（ecstasis）」という言葉が「‌‌外に立つ、自分自身の外に立つ‌‌」という意味を持つと説明しています。これは、通常の意識状態からの逸脱を指します。
  • 彼は、臨死体験が一種の恍惚状態であると述べ、死の瀬戸際にあることは、一種の「恍惚状態」であると指摘しています。

超常現象、特に空中浮揚との関連性​

  • グロッソ博士は、クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフの事例を挙げ、彼の空中浮揚が常に‌‌法悦状態と深く関連していた‌‌ことを強調しています。聖ヨゼフはミサを執り行う際に「法悦状態に深く没頭する」と静かに地面から浮上したとされています。
  • 彼は、「恍惚状態は、一般的に超常現象、特に空中浮揚にとって‌‌絶対的に重要な変数‌‌である」と述べています。
  • 聖人、霊媒、シャーマンなど、空中浮揚の報告がある人々は「常に恍惚状態にあった」と指摘しており、近年のスペインでの修道女の空中浮揚の目撃例も、彼女が祈りの中で恍惚状態にあったことを示唆しています。

恍惚状態による超常現象の理論的説明​

グロッソ博士は、恍惚状態が超常現象を可能にするメカニズムについて、自身の物理的理論を提唱しています。

  1. ‌‌通常の心の状態からの解放‌‌: 恍惚状態にあるとき、人は「通常の心の状態」にはありません。この状態では、「エゴの感覚、自己へのとらわれ、恐怖、感情といった通常の意識の流れを乱すものがすべて消し去られる」と説明しています。
  2. ‌‌「創造的無意識」または「広大な心」との接触‌‌: この心の空虚な状態は、「創造的無意識」またはオルダス・ハクスリーの言葉を借りて「‌‌広大な心（mind at large）‌‌」との接触を可能にすると考えられています。
    • ヨガが心を空にすることであり、「空（void）」が悟りの偉大な象徴であるように、心から雑念や恐れ、怒りなどを取り除くことで、意識のより深い層との接触や、それらが全面的な意識に浮上する可能性が高まるとしています。
  3. ‌‌「夢空間」との融合‌‌: 恍惚状態にあり「通常の自己から離れている」とき、人は肉体的に覚醒しながらも、「‌‌夢空間（dream space）‌‌」と融合することができるという理論です。
    • 夢空間では、物理空間では不可能なことが可能になります（例：空を飛ぶ夢）。
    • グロッソ博士は、恍惚状態にある聖人やシャーマンは、自身が深い集中状態にあることで、「彼らのサイキックな装置が、いわば夢空間と絡み合う余地を作る」と考えています。
    • この状態では、「一時的に重力の力に対して免疫を持つ」ようになり、夢空間で重力が体に作用しないのと同様に、空中浮揚が可能になる、と説明しています。

恍惚状態と憑依（Possession）​

  • グロッソ博士は、憑依も一種の恍惚状態であると見なしています。
  • 「もし恍惚状態が、自分自身を空にして美しく神聖なものが自分の中に入ることを可能にするのであれば、それはまた、無意識のより‌‌暗い側面が自分を憑依する‌‌手段にもなり得る」と彼は示唆しています。
  • この考えは、「もし恍惚状態が可能なら、憑依も可能である」という彼の結論につながっています。

より大きな文脈における意義​

グロッソ博士の恍惚状態に関する探求は、彼の以下の広範な信念と研究の一部です。

  • ‌‌物質主義的世界観への批判‌‌: 彼は主流の物質主義的視点に批判的であり、恍惚状態が引き起こす超常現象は、科学的還元主義に対する強力な反証となると考えています。
  • ‌‌人類の進化‌‌: 彼は、これらの現象が「‌‌人類の潜在的な未来の進化の側面‌‌」を表しており、「意識の拡大と共感の増大」を伴うと信じています。恍惚状態がこれらの現象を促進するならば、それはこの進化の一端を担うものと言えます。

要するに、グロッソ博士にとって恍惚状態は、単なる心理状態ではなく、超常現象が現実世界に現れるための主要な触媒であり、人間の意識が持つ計り知れない可能性、さらには人類の未来の進化の方向性を示す重要な手がかりなのです。

不死身の体​

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マイケル・グロッソ博士にとって、「不死身の体（Incorruptible Body）」の現象は、彼の超常現象の説明理論のより大きな文脈において、‌‌物質主義的な世界観に異議を唱え、意識と物理的な現実の間の謎めいたつながりを探るための、もう一つの手ごわい証拠‌‌として位置づけられています。

以下に、ソースがこの現象について何を語っているか、そしてそれがグロッソ博士の理論にどのように組み込まれているかを議論します。

不死身の体に関する詳細​

  • ‌‌現象の認識と謎‌‌: グロッソ博士は、「不死身の体」という現象を「‌‌本当に厄介な問題（real puzzler）‌‌」であり、自身もその存在を認識していると述べています。彼は、これが聖人の「偉大さ」とは無関係であり、多くの「取るに足らない聖人たち」にもこの現象が見られると指摘しています。
  • ‌‌具体的な事例と多様性‌‌:
    • ‌‌キリスト教の伝統‌‌: キリスト教の伝統における不死身の体は、死後も肉体が腐敗しない現象を指します。グロッソ博士は、一部の事例が「本当に、本当に奇妙で、ほとんど滑稽なほど奇妙」であり、死体が起き上がって人を指差すといった話もあると述べています。
    • ‌‌非キリスト教の事例‌‌: キリスト教徒や宗教的な人物に限らず、この現象は発生するとされており、彼はチベット仏教の事例を挙げています。あるチベットの神秘主義者の死後、その体は毎日縮んでいき、約9日後には完全に消滅したと報告されており、カトリックの司祭を含む複数の観察者がこれを証言しています。グロッソ博士は、これはキリスト教の「不死身」とは異なるものの、死体に起きる現象としては類似していると見なしています。

グロッソ博士の理論的解釈​

グロッソ博士は、不死身の体を、自身の提唱する超常現象の分類の一つである「‌‌レトロPK（retro PK）‌‌」の一種であると見ています。

  • ‌‌レトロPKとしての分類‌‌: 彼は、不死身の体が死体に対して作用する一種の「レトロPK」であると示唆しています。PK（サイコキネシス）は精神が物質に影響を与える現象ですが、「レトロPK」は過去の出来事や死後の現象に精神が影響を与える可能性を示唆していると考えられます。
  • ‌‌期待と信念の役割‌‌: グロッソ博士は、現象の具体的な現れ方（不死身性か、体が縮むか）は、「‌‌期待（expectation）‌‌」やその伝統における「霊的な体」に関する信念に依存すると推測しています。キリスト教の伝統では「霊的な体」の保持が期待されるため、不死身の体が現れ、一方チベット仏教では「空（void）」を究極の象徴と見なすため、体が消滅するという形を取る可能性があると説明しています。
  • ‌‌メカニズムは不明‌‌: 彼はこの現象を分類し、その関連性を考察しているものの、その具体的なメカニズム、つまり「‌‌どのようにそれが機能するのか、全く分からない‌‌」と率直に認めています。この「理解したいが、神秘的で捉えどころがなく、混乱させる」という彼のフラストレーションが示されています。

より大きな文脈における不死身の体の意義​

不死身の体は、グロッソ博士の意識と超常現象に関する広範な研究テーマにおいて、以下の点で重要です。

  • ‌‌物質主義的世界観への挑戦‌‌: 聖ヨゼフの空中浮揚 や、ドイツの神秘主義者テレサ・ノイマンが長期間食物なしで生存した例 と同様に、不死身の体は、科学的還元主義の枠組みでは説明できない「‌‌衝撃的で奇妙な現象‌‌」として、支配的な物質主義的世界観に異議を唱える強力な事例となります。
  • ‌‌人類の潜在的な能力‌‌: グロッソ博士は、これらの現象を「‌‌人類の潜在的な未来の進化の側面‌‌」と見なしており、人間が持つ「確実に存在する潜在能力」の一部であると信じています。不死身の体は、この潜在能力が肉体的なレベルにまで及ぶ可能性を示唆していると言えます。
  • ‌‌意識の深層への探求‌‌: 彼が恍惚状態（Ecstasy）を「広大な心（mind at large）」や「創造的無意識」との接触を可能にするものと見なすように、不死身の体のようなPK現象もまた、意識の深い層が物理的現実に影響を与える可能性を示唆しています。

このように、不死身の体は、グロッソ博士が探求する、‌‌意識が物理的な世界とどのように相互作用し、我々が考える現実の限界を超えた現象を生み出すのか‌‌という問いを深めるための、重要な事例の一つとなっています。

Teresa Neumann テレサ・ノイマン : 長期間の絶食​

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マイケル・グロッソ博士の超常現象の説明理論のより大きな文脈において、‌‌長期間の絶食（例：テレサ・ノイマンの事例）‌‌は、‌‌物質主義的な世界観に異議を唱え、人間の潜在能力と意識の未知なる側面を探求するための、極めて強力な、そして不可解な証拠‌‌として提示されています。

以下に、ソースがこの現象について何を語っているか、そしてそれがグロッソ博士の理論にどのように組み込まれているかを議論します。

長期間の絶食現象に関する詳細​

  • ‌‌具体的な事例‌‌: グロッソ博士は、キリスト教および東洋の伝統における、数ヶ月から数年にわたる絶食のよく文書化された事例を挙げ、特に20世紀のドイツの神秘主義者、‌‌テレサ・ノイマン‌‌の事例を詳細に紹介しています。
  • ‌‌テレサ・ノイマンの事例‌‌:
    • 彼女は‌‌人生の最後の35年間、何も食べず、何も排泄しなかった‌‌とされています。
    • 彼女は痩せ細ることもなく、「太っているとは言わないが、ふっくらとした人」であったと形容されています。
    • 公衆の面前で活動し、会議にも参加していました。
    • ナチスの時代でさえ、彼女があまりにも有名だったため、食事配給券の支給を止められたと述べられています。
    • 彼女は「聖体（Eucharistic host）の4分の1」を摂取したと語っていますが、これはごく小さな薄いウェハースであり、通常の栄養摂取とはかけ離れています。
    • ‌‌2週間にわたる監視下でのテスト‌‌も行われ、日夜監視された結果、彼女が何も食べず、排泄もしていないことが確認されました。
  • ‌‌「超人的な機能」としての認識‌‌: グロッソ博士は、この現象を「‌‌我々が現実の証拠を持つ、超人的な機能の別の領域‌‌」と呼んでいます。

グロッソ博士の理論的解釈と意義​

グロッソ博士は、この現象のメカニズムは不明であると認めつつも、その存在が彼の超常現象理論において持つ重要性を強調しています。

  • ‌‌説明不能性への正直な認識‌‌: 彼は「‌‌どのように機能するのか、私には分からない‌‌」と率直に述べており、その謎めいた性質を認めています。
  • ‌‌物質主義的世界観への挑戦‌‌: 聖ヨゼフの空中浮揚や不死身の体と同様に、長期間の絶食は、科学的還元主義では説明できない‌‌「衝撃的で奇妙な現象」‌‌として、主流の物質主義的視点への強力な反証となります。彼は、最も強力な事例を用いることで、この世界観に「一撃を加える」ことを目指しています。
  • ‌‌人類の潜在的な未来の進化‌‌: グロッソ博士は、これらの現象が「‌‌人類の潜在的な未来の進化の側面‌‌」を表しており、人間が持つ「確実に存在する潜在能力」の一部であると信じています。長期間の絶食の能力は、肉体的な限界を超えた人間の潜在能力を示すものとして位置づけられています。
  • ‌‌「天才」や「世代的な現象」との類似‌‌: 彼は、このような超常現象の出現を「天才が現れるように、常に起こるわけではない」としながらも、「‌‌一部の人々に起こる‌‌」ものと見ており、スポーツにおける「世代的な」才能に例えています。
  • ‌‌意識の深層との関連‌‌: 直接的な説明はありませんが、恍惚状態（Ecstasy）が「創造的無意識」や「広大な心（mind at large）」との接触を可能にするのと同様に、長期間の絶食のような肉体的な限界を超える現象も、意識の深い層が物理的現実に影響を与える可能性を示唆しています。

要するに、テレサ・ノイマンの長期間の絶食は、グロッソ博士が探求する、‌‌意識が物質とどのように相互作用し、通常の科学的理解の範囲を超える現象を生み出すのか‌‌という、より大きな問いにおける重要なパズルのピースであり、人類の未開拓の能力と進化の可能性を強く示唆する事例なのです。

「Super Psi による幻覚の可能性」への反論​

AI

マイケル・グロッソ博士は、死後の生存の証拠に関する議論において、‌‌超PSI（Super Psi）による幻覚の可能性‌‌を、‌‌妥当な反論として認識しつつも、それに対する独自の反論を展開しています‌‌。彼の議論は、意識の性質と現象の目的という、より大きな文脈に位置づけられています。

以下に、ソースがこの点について何を語っているかを議論します。

超PSI（Super Psi）による幻覚の可能性​

  • ‌‌「スーパーPSI」の認識‌‌: グロッソ博士は、死後の生存を示唆する現象（臨死体験、幽霊、憑依など）に対する‌‌「スーパーPSI」という反論‌‌が存在することを認識しています。これは「PSIのほぼ無限の能力が、まるで何でもできるかのように作用する」という考えに基づいています。
  • ‌‌理論的可能性の容認‌‌: 彼は、スーパーPSIの仮説が「遠隔的にではあるが、私には考えられる」と述べており、PSIが極めて広範な能力を持つと仮定すれば、死後の生存の証拠とされるものがPSIによる幻覚であるという可能性は「もっともらしい（plausible）」と捉えています。さらに、もしスーパーPSIが事実であるならば、それは「魂、精神的人格の独立した存在を信じるのがもっともらしい領域にすでにいる」ことを示唆するとも述べています。

グロッソ博士の反論：動機と目的の欠如​

グロッソ博士は、スーパーPSIが死後の生存の証拠を説明するという考えに対し、‌‌「動機（motivation）」と「目的（point）」の欠如‌‌を主要な反論として提示しています。

  • ‌‌「なぜ？」という問い‌‌: 彼は、「もし死後の生命を示唆するすべての超常現象が、自然や私たちの潜在意識によって投影された幻覚だとしたら、‌‌その動機は何なのか？何の意味があるのか？‌‌」と問いかけます。
  • ‌‌自然の目的との矛盾‌‌: 彼は、進化の観点からすれば、自然は通常、生存を促すために「死への恐怖」を私たちに植え付けるはずだと指摘しています。しかし、臨死体験（NDE）のような現象は、死への恐怖を軽減し、人々を根本的に変容させる肯定的な経験であることが多いです。もしこれらの体験が単なる幻覚であるならば、「自然が、私たちが死ぬことを前提として、このような幻覚を生み出す手助けをすることに、何の利益があるのだろうか？」と疑問を呈します。
  • ‌‌経験の説得力‌‌: 彼は、臨死体験の報告が「非常に雄弁」であり、「人々を完全に変容させている」ことから、それらが真実であるという感覚に抵抗するのは難しいと述べています。このような強力で変容的な幻覚を、意味もなく自然が生み出すという考えは、彼には信じがたいのです。

より大きな文脈における意義​

グロッソ博士は、この議論を通じて、彼の超常現象の説明理論の中心にあるメッセージを強化しています。

  • ‌‌物質主義的世界観への挑戦‌‌: 臨死体験やその他の死後の生存を示唆する現象は、物質主義的な世界観では説明できない「衝撃的で奇妙な現象」であり、その存在は‌‌主流の科学的還元主義に対する強力な反証‌‌となります。スーパーPSIの議論は、この反証を弱めようとする試みですが、グロッソ博士は、その試み自体が非論理的であると反論しています。
  • ‌‌人類の潜在能力と進化‌‌: 彼の最終的な結論は、これらの現象が‌‌「人類の潜在的な未来の進化の側面」‌‌を表しており、「確実に存在する潜在能力」の一部であるというものです。死後の生存の証拠は、意識が肉体の死後も存続しうるという、人間の能力の究極的な拡張を示唆していると彼は考えています。

要するに、グロッソ博士は、超PSIが理論的な可能性としてはあり得ると認めつつも、その背後にある‌‌動機と目的の欠如‌‌を指摘することで、死後の生存の証拠が単なる幻覚ではないという彼の信念を強化しているのです。彼は、数々の「非常に示唆に富む」証拠の積み重ねが、最終的には生存の現実を示していると考えています。

時系列​

AI

‌‌幼少期 (約8歳)‌‌:

  • ESP体験: グロッソ博士が約8歳の頃、引っ越し先の近所の子供であるジョニーと遊ぶ夢を見る。翌朝、家の外に出るとジョニーがボールを持って現れ、夢で見た通りの「一緒に遊ばない？」という言葉をかける。この経験が彼の初のサイ現象との具体的な接触となる。

‌‌コロンビア大学大学院時代‌‌:

  • ESP体験への批判: グロッソ博士がESP体験について友人に話した際、「それは不可能だ、二元論を意味する」と反論される。この出来事が、彼が精神の現実を信じ、主流の考えに反対する現象に注意を払うきっかけとなる。

‌‌博士号取得直前 (1970年代後半〜1980年代初頭)‌‌:

  • UFO目撃: 博士号取得の5日前に、ガールフレンドと屋上の男性と共にUFOを目撃。UFOはジョン・コルトレーンの音楽に合わせて動いていた。この出来事は彼に大きな印象を与え、「宇宙からのメッセージ」として意識とパラノーマル現象への関心を深める。

‌‌1981年‌‌:

  • レーガン大統領暗殺未遂に関する予知夢: グロッソ博士がレーガン大統領の暗殺未遂について3つの詳細な夢を見る。数日後、実際に暗殺未遂が発生し、彼の学生から「あなたは超能力者だ」と電話がかかってくる。

‌‌時期不明 (博士号取得後、大学での教員時代)‌‌:

  • 生徒のエリザベス・セブンによる幽体離脱と家具移動: グロッソ博士の学生であるエリザベス・セブンが幽体離脱を経験し、約20〜30マイル離れた博士の自宅を訪れ、彼のミュージックスタンドを移動させる。博士はそれを目撃し、後にエリザベス本人からの電話で確認する。
  • 自身のPK体験 (スプーン曲げ): 一人でスプーンを曲げる現象を経験し、それをアート作品にする。
  • セント・アイリーン教会の聖像の涙の目撃: ニューヨークのクイーンズにあるセント・アイリーン教会の聖像が涙を流す現象を友人と共に目撃。
  • 教室での集団レヴィテーション体験: パラサイコロジーの授業中に、学生の提案で元海兵隊員の学生を4人の女子学生が触れて「浮上しろ」と唱えると、実際に学生が約5フィート浮上する。これは彼にとって予想外の物理現象の目撃となる。
  • 自宅地下室の洪水予知: ベッドメイキング中に突然、手を掴まれたような感覚に襲われ、洗濯のためにシーツを地下室に持っていく必要があると感じる。地下室で水が溢れそうになっているのを発見し、洪水から家を守る。

‌‌1603年 - 1663年‌‌:

  • クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフの生涯: グロッソ博士が著書『飛べる男、クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフ、そして浮遊の神秘』で詳しく扱った、17世紀イタリアの聖ヨゼフの生涯と数々のレヴィテーション、読心術、癒しの奇跡に関する記述。彼の生涯の後半は、奇跡が起こりすぎるために僻地の修道院に隠遁させられる。

‌‌16世紀 - 17世紀‌‌:

  • 魔女狩りの時代: 聖ヨゼフの生きた時代は、ヨーロッパで魔女狩りがピークを迎えていた時期であり、何千人もの無実の人々が魔女とされ、拷問され処刑された。これはグロッソ博士の「ダーク・サイキ」研究における歴史的背景として語られる。

‌‌20世紀 (ドイツ)‌‌:

  • テレサ・ノイマンの不食現象: 20世紀ドイツの神秘家テレサ・ノイマンが、人生の最後の35年間、聖餐のウェハース以外は何も食べずに生き、健康を保ったことが語られる。

‌‌約25年前 (オアハカ、メキシコ)‌‌:

  • 呪術による夢の体験: グロッソ博士がメキシコで出会ったアメリカ人男性の体験談。この男性がシャワーを浴びる呪術師の女性を覗き見した後、虫やコウモリが襲ってくる悪夢に悩まされる。

‌‌1917年 (ファティマ、ポルトガル)‌‌:

  • ファティマの奇跡とUFO現象の関連: グロッソ博士がジャック・ヴァレの研究を引用し、ファティマの奇跡（太陽の舞踏）がUFO現象と関連している可能性について言及。

‌‌1947年以降‌‌:

  • UFO現象の増加: 原子爆弾の発明以降、UFOの目撃がより頻繁になり、特に核戦争の脅威に対する地球外知性の関心を示唆しているとグロッソ博士は推測する。

‌‌1952年‌‌:

  • ワシントンD.C.上空のUFO目撃: ワシントンD.C.上空でUFOが目撃された事例に言及。

‌‌最近の活動‌‌:

  • 「ダーク・サイキ」に関する論文執筆: 超常現象の暗い側面を扱った論文を執筆中。これは将来的に書籍化される可能性がある。
  • 臨死体験 (NDE) の研究: YouTubeなどで臨死体験の報告を多数視聴しており、その共通性から生後の意識の存続に強い示唆を受けている。
  • UFO現象への継続的な関心: UFO現象を現実のものと確信し、その起源や目的、意識との関連性について考察を続けている。 超常現象と人類の進化の関係性についての探求: これらの現象が人類の潜在的な未来、意識の拡張、共感力の向上といった進化の側面を表していると考えている。

主要関係者​

AI

‌‌マイケル・グロッソ (Michael Grosso, PhD)‌‌ -経歴と専門: コロンビア大学で哲学の博士号を取得した哲学者。長年、人文科学の教員を務め、哲学や文化史を教えてきた。意識とパラサイコロジー（超心理学）に関する数々の書籍を執筆している。画家としての側面も持つ。

  • 主な研究領域: 超常現象、意識の探求、宏大精神運動（macropsychokinesis）、幽体離脱、レヴィテーション、UFO現象、臨死体験、超能力の暗い側面（「ダーク・サイキ」）。
  • 哲学・思想: 支配的な唯物論的世界観に批判的であり、超常現象を人類の進化の可能性と見なしている。抽象的な哲学だけでなく、芸術を通じて意識を高めることにも関心がある。

‌‌クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフ (Saint Joseph of Cupertino)‌‌

  • 生没年: 1603年生まれ、1663年没（60歳）。
  • 人物像: イタリア南部クペルティーノ出身のカトリックの聖人。幼少期は病弱で知的に遅れているように見えたが、実は瞑想に没頭していた。非常に不器用で、修道院に入ろうとするも幾度も拒否されるが、最終的にフランシスコ会に入る。
  • 超常能力: 35年間にもわたり、数々のレヴィテーション（浮遊）を目撃され、他にも読心術や癒しの能力を持っていた。その奇跡の多さと信憑性の高さから、グロッソ博士が彼の伝記『飛べる男、クペルティーノの聖ヨゼフ、そして浮遊の神秘』を執筆するに至った。彼のレヴィテーションは常に「忘我の境地（ecstasy）」にあるときに起こったとされる。

‌‌エリザベス・セブン (Elizabeth Seven)‌‌

  • グロッソ博士の学生: 博士が教えていた頃の学生。人類学を専攻し、聡明でユーモアのセンスがあった。
  • 超常能力: 幽体離脱の経験者であり、実際に幽体離脱中にグロッソ博士の家を訪れ、ミュージックスタンドを移動させるという物理的影響を与えた。また、自宅が幽霊に憑かれていると博士に相談していた。

‌‌ジョニー (Johnny)‌‌

  • グロッソ博士の幼少期の友人: 博士が8歳の頃の近所の子供。博士の最初のESP体験の対象となった人物。

‌‌ジョン・コルトレーン (John Coltrane)‌‌

  • アメリカのジャズ音楽家: グロッソ博士がUFOを目撃した際に聴いていたジャズ曲「The Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost」の作曲者。コルトレーンは音楽のスピリチュアルな側面に深い関心を持っていたと博士は述べている。

‌‌ロナルド・レーガン (Ronald Reagan)‌‌

  • 元アメリカ合衆国大統領: グロッソ博士が1981年の暗殺未遂について予知夢を見た対象。

‌‌バーナード・カー (Bernard Carr)‌‌

  • イギリスの物理学者: グロッソ博士が提唱する「夢空間との融合」によるレヴィテーションの物理的理論を「もっともらしい」と評した人物。専門はハイパースペース。

‌‌テレサ・ノイマン (Teresa Neumann)‌‌

  • 20世紀ドイツの神秘家: 人生の最後の35年間、聖餐のウェハース以外は何も食べずに生き、健康を保ったとされる不食の聖女。

‌‌ジャック・ヴァレ (Jacques Vallée)‌‌

  • UFO研究者、科学者: グロッソ博士がファティマの奇跡とUFO現象の関連性について言及する際に引用した分析の著者。

‌‌グレゴリー・シューシャン (Gregory Shushan)‌‌

  • 研究者: 臨死体験（NDE）の広範な文化・歴史的側面に関する研究で知られる人物。グロッソ博士も彼の研究を高く評価している。

‌‌グロッソ博士の祖母 (Grandmother)‌‌

  • グロッソ博士が自身のベッドで休んでいた際に、幽霊として現れた人物。博士が幼少期にわずかに会ったか、まったく会ったことがない可能性がある。

‌‌グロッソ博士の大叔母 (Great Aunt) または祖母の姉妹‌‌

  • グロッソ博士の祖母と共に幽霊として現れた女性。博士は写真で初めてその姿を認識した。博士が生まれた時に、その女性が彼を見に訪れたが、彼の母親は壊れたベビーベッドを恥じて面会を断ったという。

‌‌オアハカの呪術師の女性‌‌

  • メキシコのオアハカで、グロッソ博士が会った男性を呪ったとされる女性呪術師。男性が彼女の裸を覗き見したことで、悪夢によって彼を苦しめた。

‌‌キリスト教の伝道師 (American Preacher in Oaxaca)‌‌

  • メキシコのオアハカで、呪術師の呪いから男性を救ったとされるキリスト教の伝道師。

‌‌匿名の哲学者 (Unnamed Philosopher)‌‌

  • オックスフォード大学出版局がグロッソ博士の『飛べる男』の出版契約を撤回しようとした際、聖ヨゼフが実際にレヴィテーションしたと結論付けないように要求したとされる人物。

‌‌パドレ・ピオ (Padre Pio)‌‌

  • グロッソ博士がエリザベスに、幽霊を怖がらせるために写真を飾るように勧められた霊的に強力な人物。

情報源​

動画(1:36:59)

Psychic Phenomena： The Mystery of Levitation, the ‘Dark Psyche’, UFOs, & more w⧸ Michael Grosso, PhD

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGC9HeUqoNA

文字起こし​

展開

（以下は Dr. Michael Grosso のインタビュー動画。動画タイトルは "Psychic Phenomena： The Mystery of Levitation, the ‘Dark Psyche’, UFOs, & more w⧸ Michael Grosso, PhD" というもの。

Michael Grosso is part of an ever-growing group of scholars and thinkers who are critical of the prevailing materialistic view of the world. He's taught philosophy and humanities and has written a number of books related to consciousness and parapsychology. We discussed macropsychokinesis, the darker side of psychical research, and the UFO phenomenon, and talked in-depth about the research that went into his book. The Man Who Could Fly, Saint Joseph of Capetino, and the Mystery of Levitation. The timestamps are in the description and we hope you enjoy the episode. (0:00:27)

So Michael, to start us off, can you please talk a little bit about your background and about your main areas of research interest? Well, I am a framed philosopher at Columbia University. I got my degree. And before I got that degree, I was into classical Greek and also throughout my life, I've basically been a painter, but I've not made it a career, but it relates to my imagination. (0:01:06)

At any rate, in the course of my getting a PhD, I had conversations with fellow students, and I remember one day I mentioned the fact that I had an ESP experience. And he looked at me, my buddy, and he said, but that's impossible, it would imply dualism. In short, it would imply the reality of the mind. So I said, well, so much the better, because I had the experience and I have full belief in the mind. So already in graduate school, I was turned on to becoming more alert to phenomena that I knew many of my fellow students and teachers were, for some historical reasons, opposed to. (0:01:53)

So when I got my degree, oddly enough, five days before I got my actually full degree, I had one of the strangest experiences of my life, in which I was with my girlfriend, and we both, plus a guy on the roof, witnessed a UFO out there dancing in unison with the music that we were listening to, namely John Coltrane's The Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. I don't know if you know John Coltrane, but a wild jazz player. (0:02:35)

And so, I won't recount the story, but it made quite an impression on me, and it left me with an idea. How this happened, I don't know. It's a complete mystery. It still is. But I got the impression I was getting a message from the universe. You're about to become a doctor and wise. (0:02:59)

Figure this one out, buddy. That was the message I almost got. But there was also a connection with music. Because, you know, Coltrane is not a priest, but he was interested in the spiritual dimension of music. So that was, again, a powerful reminder of this whole area, because not only was the paranormal forbidden, in those days, don't talk about UFOs, unless you want to be accused of being a nut or a clown or something. (0:03:26)

And of course, now, since 2017, things are quite different. Now the government is saying, come on and tell us your stories. So I would say this is the beginnings of my interest in the nature of mind. And I spent many years teaching humanities, where I taught courses in philosophy and also in the history of culture. (0:03:54)

So I was always thinking about the big picture of the origins of humanity and the future of humanity. And my research into the paranormal has led me to the belief that these phenomena represent evolutionary aspects of our potential future. And how that full realization will ultimately take place. If it does take place, I can't say. (0:04:34)

But that's how I view it. And in a sense, my interest is in not merely promoting the ideas, the extraordinary ideas that mainstream culture backs away from. (0:04:39)

But I want to say there's these phenomena have something to do with our future. So let's pay attention, because the creative implications of a fully evolved, psychically evolved human being would be a great benefit for the human race. Because it involves an expansion of consciousness, greater degrees of empathy, which would have implications for how we relate to each other. So that's my background and sort of where I'm at today. (0:05:12)

And I should say this, that my sense of the future, what we need, I don't think abstract philosophy is going to do it. But I'm interested in the arts as ways of becoming more conscious and more human. Not that I'm opposed to science, obviously not. But I'll just add that concluding point about my... where I've always been, where I continue to go, to somehow combine all that I've learned with the art, the arts, you see. So I'm into music, I'm into painting, and so forth. (0:05:52)

Yeah, so it's kind of the merging of creativity and science and that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, I would say something like that. Fascinating though, there's so many different areas, different directions I could go to unpack in the things you've just told me. I think the first one is, you said that you had an ESP experience, and you spoke to your colleague, your friend about that, university, your classmate, whatever. (0:06:20)

Can you talk about that experience? When was your first kind of interaction with anything? I can. It's a minor thing, but I still remember it. Decades, decades. I had moved around the block to a new home where we were living in Astoria, and I hardly knew many of the kids. I was about maybe eight years old at that time. (0:06:45)

And I had one morning, Saturday morning, an enormously vivid dream that a kid named Johnny, whom I had... I knew he existed, but I never played with him. I dreamt of this kid, and he's bouncing a ball, and he says, want to play off the wall? As we used to do, we used to hit the side of the wall and go out in the street and catch. (0:07:12)

So that was a dream, and it was vivid. And I woke up, and I forgot about the dream, you know. It was a vivid dream, but I wasn't monitoring my dreams. Had breakfast, went out, stepped out of the house. First thing I see is Johnny. He's got a ball in his hand, and he says, you want to play ball? It's a minor little thing, right? But it definitely precognized, anticipated, enabled me to see what was coming. (0:07:41)

And even at that age, it struck me as strange, although I had no words to describe it. So I still remember it. So that was just the first experience. And then throughout my life, I have periodic encounters. One of the more recent I'll mention, very practical, almost Socratic in its practicality. I woke up one morning, and I started to make the bed, as I normally do. (0:08:11)

And suddenly, it was almost as though something grabbed my hands, and I grabbed the sheets, and I felt I had to go downstairs and put the sheets in the laundry and clean them. I never, ever did anything like that. I always think of cleaning later in the day. So I go downstairs, and I noticed that something happened with the water. (0:08:40)

I had a giant sink, and the water was right to the very edge, about to overflow onto the basement. Normally, I don't go down there. If I had not gone down there, my basement would have been completely flooded. Again, this is a helpful illustration. And so I immediately plunged my hand, and I did something, and I loosened the water, drained out, and walked back upstairs and had breakfast. (0:09:06)

So, I mean, that was a kind of, you know, slightly different. It wasn't a... I didn't dream it, but I was almost... I felt possessed. Not in an unpleasant way, but I just had to go down and do that, and I found something that was dangerous to me, and resolved it. (0:09:26)

And again, these are mine. I have lots, really. I had perhaps one of the most memorable. In 1981, when President Reagan was nearly assassinated, I was teaching philosophy. (0:09:35)

Before he was assassinated, I had three dreams of the attempts to assassinate him. Each dream giving me some details. And I remember on the third dream, I reported to my students. I said, you know, I had these dreams, and I didn't expect anything to happen. A couple of days later, one of my students calls me up. (0:10:03)

It's Dr. Grosso. He was breathless. You're a psychic. The president has almost been assassinated. So, again, three dreams, about two weeks in advance, very specific images. And the last image, I see Reagan naked from the waist up, looking very good. So, I thought to myself, well, that means he's going to recover quickly. And he did, for a guy his age, and the fact that he was shot. (0:10:27)

So, stuff like that, and I can go on and on with stories. And I've also witnessed and met people with strange abilities. I had a student of mine who said she had out-of-body experiences. And I said, great, why don't you come and visit me someday, as a joke. (0:10:48)

A couple of nights later, I get up in the morning, I should say a couple of mornings later, I get up, and I notice my music stand, which I held in a certain part of the living room, always, never moved it, was right in the middle. And I'm thinking, what the heck's going on? I'm living by myself at that time. (0:11:07)

And while I'm thinking this, the phone rings, and my student says, how do you like the new furniture rearrangement? And then she told me that the previous night, I was in the kitchen, she got out of her body, and she said, I'm going to go visit Dr. Grosso. And lo and behold, she finds herself in my house. She's floating along, she sees me where I was in the kitchen, working with my head, you know, in a cup of coffee or something. She tried to get my attention, and it angered her that she couldn't do it. (0:11:36)

And then she floats around, and she notices the music stands, I'm going to try and move this. And she succeeded. And I had the proof. There's nobody in that house. There's no way that I can explain this other than a, a human being got out of her body about 20, 30 miles away from where I was living, came and visited me and manipulated my furniture, which I observed correctly, which is exactly what she told me that she did. (0:12:11)

There's no way I can escape the reality of that. I mean, lots of these experiences are, you know, iffy, not that. So anyway, I'll stop. These are some of the examples that have come into this area. Yeah, again, there's so many different roads I could take here. Everything you say is really grabbing me right now. But I mean, just in a kind of one or two word answer, like how frequently do you have experiences yourself that you notice that you, you know, remark and say, okay, that I think was Psy or ESP. I was, it's not that regular. (0:12:44)

It's once in a while. But I'm expecting something to happen soon because I haven't had any striking events. And also it depends on who I'm hanging out with and what I'm doing. But it's not a constant thing and not something I can rely upon. It just hits me from time to time. And I get the feeling why. I get the feeling I'm being instructed from my own subconscious or maybe something outside of myself. Who knows? Yeah. Do you think it depends on, sorry, I was just going to say, do you think it depends at all upon your state of mind or, you know, we have, you know, for six months, we might be in a more positive state of mind. (0:13:29)

And then for a few months, we might, you know, something might go wrong and we're feeling a bit negative. Do you, have you ever noticed any kind of correlation with that kind of thing? Actually, no. No, it's totally unexpected. And I mean, the night I went to sleep where I was awakened about the flood in my basement, it was a perfectly normal night. (0:13:51)

There was nothing special about it. Of course, I was in an altered state. I was dreaming. Wait, no, no, no. That was not the dream. That was not what I just told you. No, there was nothing there. The event was triggered by my trying to make the bed. (0:14:02)

And so, there are different ways that these events take place. And sometimes, you know, they're through the agency of another person, as with my student. And she proved to me that she could do it. And incidentally, there's more to tell about her, about ghosts. You said something about wanting to talk about it. When we get to that, I'll tell you a story. Yeah, absolutely. We'll circle back to that. I'll write down your student's ghost story. (0:14:30)

What I was going to say is, did you talk to her, I suppose you did, in a bit of detail afterwards, after that experience? And, you know, did you ask her, what is it? What did it feel like? What was that experience like for you? Did she give you much information in terms of that? Subjective. You're talking about when she moved my furniture, my music stand. (0:14:51)

Yeah, Elizabeth Seven, I still remember her name. I don't really recall. She was very bright. She was into anthropology. And she was clever. And she was married. And she had a great sense of humor. But no, I don't recall us discussing. It just happened, you know. And wow. Yeah. And that stuck with you for a long time. (0:15:19)

What about MacroPK? What was your first introduction to, you know, something physical, witnessing something? Well, let me see. Off the top of my head, I'm trying to think. I can't, right now I'm not getting any. I'm sure I've had some physical events that I can talk to you about. But right now my mind's blank on that. If it comes back, it comes to me. (0:15:50)

Yeah, that's fine. Well, I guess I'll kind of rephrase it. When did that first kind of enter your awareness? And when did you first sort of take that seriously? You know, the idea of us being able to manipulate our environment in various ways? I mean, the example I just gave is an illustration of the physical effect, right? Sure, sure. That's true, actually. Yeah, moving the thing. That's a good point. (0:16:14)

And I witnessed, there was in New York City, I don't know, a decade or so ago, reports of a church which had a St. Irene's in Astoria, Queens. And I happened to live in Astoria when I was a kid. And I heard the news where I was living in a village at that time in New York. And about this saint whose body or a cross or something that belonged to her was shedding tears. A photograph, actually, or a small statue, now that I remember. (0:16:55)

That and so I had known about this phenomenon of paintings of Christ bleeding, portraits of the Virgin Mary somehow coming to life and stuff. So I and a buddy of mine, as a writer, went to Astoria. We drove, and we both got online and got a chance to observe this statue with these tears. (0:17:28)

I could see there was coming right around the eyes, and then it would drop. I didn't see it drop, but I did see the tears formed on the eye. (0:17:36)

And I had a chat with some of the priests there, and they confirmed, you know, people came from all over the place to witness this thing. So that was a physical, inexplicable physical event that I witnessed. And I'm trying to think, oh, okay, here's something physical. One of my students one day said, told me about a game that she played when she was a kid that the other kids would put their, they would touch her and say, rise, and she would levitate. (0:18:15)

So I thought I was teaching a course on parapsychology, and that's why it came up. So I said to me, well, let's try it right now. So I picked the heaviest guy, an ex-marine, massive dude, right, about 200 pounds, smart guy, by the way. And I said, sit down in a chair, and I picked four of the frailest young women in the class, and I had them put their fingers like this, and not in a position to drag or pull, but just to touch underneath the knees and underneath the elbows. And I said, by the way, I expected nothing to happen, but I said, why not? We're into this. (0:19:02)

Yeah. So I chanted something, and to make a long story short, and I said, lift, and up in the air, he went, I will never forget the astonished look on this guy's face. He's like this. The young women were not tall, but as far as they could reach up, they had him up in the air. And then you would think if they let go, it would have been serious, because it was at least five feet in the air. (0:19:38)

And then very gently, they lowered their hands, and he came down. Physical effect, that blew my mind. Meanwhile, of course, I've been reading about levitation and knowing that these things are... but I didn't expect it to happen in the context of a class. So that's another bit of my experience that contributed to my impulse to pursue this. But now my main idea, again, just to wrap it up about my work and research, I'm trying to think of how all of this promises points toward the evolution of human beings. (0:20:19)

I mean, why else do we have these things, these powers? They're latent, and they emerge under special circumstances. What science needs to do to learn how to get in there and control the process and gradually learn to evolve systematically. But we're a long way from even beginning that as an idea. But I do see a new form of humanity, I hope, and see in my imagination a new form of humanity emerging from these definitely real potentials that people seem to possess. (0:20:56)

Yeah, absolutely. Imagine the kind of research that could be done if it was widely accepted and everything. Exactly, exactly. And it's a challenge. Yeah, indeed. Have you ever bent a spoon, Michael? Bent what? Bent a spoon yourself. Oh, bent a spoon. Oh, yes. Yes. As a matter of fact, I, yes, I do. (0:21:29)

In fact, and I used it, I have half of it that I glued onto a wooden plate. And I made a portrait of an impish looking guy. And I glued the the paranormally created spoon into his into the place of his ear. And I have it hanging somewhere I can take a break later. I'll look for it. I'll show it to you. (0:21:51)

It's the only time it happened to me once. I've had a lot of one time encounters. And yes, I did do that. And I made an art object out of it. Were you alone when you did it? Or were you with a group? Not the painting, the bending. The bending. Let me see. I think I was alone. Yeah, I was alone. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. (0:22:23)

Cool. And sorry. No, no, I was definitely alone. When I'm alone, I try things. Yeah, yeah. I've tried the spoon so many times. I haven't had any luck with it yet. You mean even after? It's never happened. Yeah. I'll be happy if I can get my once like you. I'll take it. Right. So you mentioned levitation a minute ago when we were talking about your students in the classroom. (0:22:44)

That brings us perfectly on to talk about the Joseph of Cupertino, who you wrote a book about. You wrote The Man Who Could Fly. So I'd love it if you could spend a few minutes talking a bit of detail, if that's okay, and tell us about Joseph, who he was, about your book and about Joseph himself and why he's so interesting to us right now in this conversation. (0:23:08)

And again, just bear in mind that probably most or at least some, a good number of the people watching this and listening to this probably have no idea who he was. Right, right. So yeah, kind of the beginners. Joseph of Cupertino was born in 1603 in Cupertino, southern Italy. And he died 60 years later. He was the first five years of his life, horribly ill. (0:23:39)

So ill that he was, in a sense, seemed mentally retarded. His family were impoverished, and he was living with his mother and some, and I think a sister at least, in a very poor circumstance. And so he's been known to be a saint that began under the worst possible beginnings, because he started out sick, and he would often open his mouth as though he was looking like a complete idiot. (0:24:17)

But actually, he wasn't because he got very early on into the mood of praying. So he would pray. And he called, they would call him Boca Perta, open mouth. That was his nickname. And they thought that was a sign of his idiocy, as it were. But actually, that's not true. He was getting lost in his meditations. (0:24:47)

So when he finally heals, and you know, many details here I'm leaving out, he got better. The first thing he wanted, he realized he was hopeless. He couldn't do anything. He just had no ability to do anything. So he tried to get into several different church organizations, monasteries, and whatnot. And each time, one time he got invited in for several months, and all he could do was take care of a mule. (0:25:15)

And when he brought food, he would, it was clumsy, he would drop things and break things. So they fired him, as it were. And that was the end. Finally, he kept persisting, and he finally got himself a position in a Franciscan group. Francis was, of course, he was one of his models and heroes. (0:25:32)

And that was the beginning of his career as a miracle man, because during that period, as far as I know, the first time he levitated, he was standing in front of a portrait of the Madonna. She was his greatest invitation. His own mother was very unpleasant and mean-spirited. And so one day, he was in front of that painting, and up he went. (0:26:12)

And before long, when he finally got to the point where he was a full-fledged priest, he was unable to perform as a priest, because when he would say Mass, he would get so ecstatically engrossed in what he was doing, that he would quietly start to rise off the ground. (0:26:31)

And there's a bunch of people in the church, you can imagine it, right? And they're listening, you know, probably semi-bored, the usual stuff. And there's the priest up in the air. So they went crazy. Before you know it, he became increasingly famous, not only for his levitations, but he had an incredible ability to read your mind, to such a degree, what he would do, he would hang out with his fellow priests and monks and whatnot. (0:27:01)

And he'd say, you're not thinking of what you're supposed to be thinking right now. You're thinking of having dinner, when you're supposed to be saying prayers. And he got so annoying that he caught people straying inwardly, that the superior said, Giuseppe, how about being a little more discreet with your... he didn't use the term ESP, but that's what he meant, you see. (0:27:26)

Leave us alone, stop bothering us all the time for trivial things. So basically, whenever he appeared on a scene for a holiday, a mass, things would go crazy, because something would happen. He would heal somebody on the spot. He would just go up in the air. He would sometimes take people up with him. A wonderful story of a local person who was a little crazy, you know, that was supposed to be whatever his problem was, I don't know. (0:28:05)

And Joseph grabs him, hugs him, and the two of them, in front of other people, go up into the air. And by the way, the report said he would stay levitated for hours sometimes. I don't know about the data supporting that, but a long time, not just a second, 15 minutes, half an hour, almost an hour. (0:28:37)

And by the time this guy came down, they hugged each other, and he walked away completely okay, mentally. So stories like that. And Joseph is probably, scholars that I've quoted in my book, make it clear that he's peerless for the sheer variety and numerical greatness of the phenomena. We have at least 150 sworn depositions about his levitations from all kinds of people, surgeons, artists, a pope. Pope's not going to make up stories. (0:29:19)

Nuns, cardinals, ambassadors from Spain. But the fact of the matter is, that 150 is just a fragment of people who, for 35 years, nonstop, wherever he went, things happened. Thousands of people must have witnessed him. And got to the point where, wherever he was, created such a ruckus that the church figured to save him from being oppressed by people who wanted to grab him and use him, one way or another, right? And the women were all over him, and that drove him nuts. (0:30:01)

They basically sent him step by step to more remote monasteries, where there were fewer and fewer people, and eventually said, you can hang out by yourself, and don't have to become, you know, do anything public. But by that time, everybody knew about him. So he lived the latter part of his life trying to be just by himself, because the moment people interacted with him, he would do things and upset the entire order, as it were, of the day. (0:30:37)

So these are some of the things that I read about that led me to investigate, to write the book. And my approach was, I'm interested in the really shocking, bizarre phenomena, as long as there's good evidence for them. Because if I'm going to make a point, if I want to kick the scientific, reductionistic worldview in the behind, I'm going to do it with the most powerful examples at my disposal. (0:31:08)

So I have my own experience, phenomena I've noticed, and of course, I've read, not only about Joseph, but all kinds of phenomena, for years I've been doing it, and I'm still doing it. Right now, nowadays, I'm finding marvelous reports of near-death experiences online, and also UFO experiences. That's another area, which only recently has begun opening up to the public. (0:31:36)

But we have yet to get the mainstream culture to admit the reality of the paranormal. Many of them do, secretly, but they're afraid they're going to lose their jobs. I mean, the book on St. Joseph was originally published by Oxford University Press. They gave me a contract, I wrote the book, everybody loved the book, and then one day, before the book came out, I got a letter from an unnamed philosopher, and he said, you can't publish this book unless you have to not explicitly conclude that Joseph ever levitated. (0:32:18)

So, I quit on the spot. That's the reason I wrote the book. And I was not going to be bullied into concealing the most important finding, because they're worried about the appearance of publishing something that's just a little too weird for Oxford University Press. Now, Oxford University Press, soon after, published several books on levitation, one about women who levitate. (0:32:50)

But guess what? There's no discussion of the real thing. It's just, you know, they kind of had dreamy ideas about floating away in the world. So, I had a touch of that experience. And there's a whole history of scholarship being crapped on by mainstream culture and so-called intellectuals, because they've touched on this forbidden area. By the way, I found a new publisher in one day. (0:33:28)

Not the greatest, but they did a good job producing the book. They didn't promote it. Yeah. And so, you were able to put your real conclusion at the end. Oh, yeah. Which was that you fully believe you are convinced via the data that he was genuine. For sure. And of course, I don't just talk about Joseph's paranormal. I make parallels. (0:33:55)

If I recall correctly, at least 150 saints who have been documented in cases of levitation. The Catholic Church is not into promoting phony stuff. Quite the opposite. They are harsh and highly critical, because they have their reputation at stake. I also have thousands of years, a couple of thousand years of experience, and I know there's a lot of phony stuff mixed up. (0:34:28)

But on the other hand, it provides a background for a lot of really striking phenomena. St. Therese of Avila, for example, was a great levitator and a great intellect. But she prayed for the levitations to cease, and they did. Joseph did the same thing, but they didn't. On his deathbed, he levitated. That's another interesting story. (0:34:56)

On his deathbed, he was up in the air and absolutely ecstatic that he was about to die. He had no doubt where he was going. Because that was the thing about Joseph, wasn't it? He was always ecstatic when he would have these things. I don't know about always, but that was normally the catalyst. Excuse me. Yeah, yeah, no problem. Yeah, I was just mentioning how Joseph always seems to be in ecstasy when he levitates. (0:35:19)

He seems to be having such a great time and this blissful experience. Absolutely critical variable, and not only for Joseph. The ecstatic state seems to be the key altered state of consciousness that is conducive to paranormal phenomena in general, and in particular, levitation. All the great saints, and you read about them, or mediums or shamans, where there are reports of levitation, they're always in ecstasy. (0:36:00)

I had one woman that I put her story in my book that was in Spain fairly recently, you know, before I wrote the book. And she witnessed a nun in an obscure, isolated, and empty church, in prayer, levitate right in front of her. And she was with another person, and they wrote down their observations, shared it with me, and I stuck them in my book to show that it's still happening. (0:36:34)

Yeah, but there's no one like Joseph around, not that I know of. (0:36:39)

What do you make of the, you know, because back then when Joseph was active, and with all these priests levitating and everything like that, I suppose by then the explanatory framework would have been, God, it's God, it's Jesus doing this, or the devil, right? The church had this idea that the diabolic dimension was also a source of phenomena, so that had to be cleared. (0:37:12)

And Joseph was dragged in front of the Inquisition at least two or three times, because they were suspicious of him. But every time he passed with, you know, he was so pious and naively direct that they finally realized that this guy is the real McCoy, and that's when they tried to help him by hiding him. Because wherever he was, it was, you know, a riot of attention, which would be distracting to whatever they were doing at the time. Yeah. And what do you make of it in terms of any explanatory framework? I know, obviously, we can't give a full, comprehensive, definite answer to that. (0:37:53)

But what are your thoughts? Why do you think as well that it does seem to be more prevalent in religious circles, or people that follow a specific religion? Is it more common in those people? And yeah, what do you make? Well, it's quite a mystery, but it does occur out of the other context. When I first published the book, I got stories from people that were interesting. (0:38:22)

I'll give one example. A guy was on a boat with his buddies, and he fell off the boat. And as he was falling, the other people on the boat were watching him. And he described to me, he suddenly slowed up long enough for them to reach out and grab him and save him. And it blew everybody's mind. (0:38:49)

So, there was a kind of temporary levitation that saved him from being maybe caught right underneath that boat and distressed. So, I mean, these stories... and why would that happen? Being on the threshold of death is a kind of ecstasy. Ecstasis means out, stasis, standing out, standing outside of yourself. Now, why? You asked about theory. One simple thing I can say is this. (0:39:21)

If you're in a state of ecstasy, you're not in your normal state of mind. So, all the normal stuff, the ego sense, self-preoccupations, fears, emotions that clutter the normal stream of your awareness are wiped out, see? And that happens in a near-death experience. The consciousness, it doesn't cease. It gets thrown away from the body. You're dying, right? And that's when people have these amazing experiences, near-death experiences, which I'm sure you know all about. (0:40:11)

So, I think that ecstasy is the key altered state that enables us to make contact with what I call the creative unconscious. In my judgment, everybody is in tune at a very deep level with what I call mind at large. It's not my phrase. It goes back to Aldous Huxley. The great mind, you know, what the Upanishads knew thousands of years ago. (0:40:40)

What is yoga all about? It's about emptying your mind. The void is one of the great symbols for enlightenment. What does that mean? (0:40:45)

What it means is void, empty your mind of all the distractions, the fears, the anger. It all works, you see. And somehow, that allows, increases the possibility of making a contact or the rise into your full awareness of these deeper layers of consciousness. So, that's one approach. And actually, I have written up another physical theory of how levitation is possible. And I ran it past some friends of mine who are physicists, and one of them who specializes in hyperspace. And I'll give you my take. (0:41:37)

And when I wrote it up and sent it to him, and Carr is his last name, an English physicist. Bernard Carr. Bernard Carr, exactly. And he accepted it as plausible, which I was pleased. And it's simple, I can explain it. Have you ever dreamt that you were flying yourself? Once, I think, only once. Me too, once, right. So, you can do things in dream space that you can't do in physical space. (0:42:06)

Now, Bernard Carr, in one of his writings, describes how different kinds of space can be, under special circumstances, compacted into one space. So that in that one space, both properties or features of each separate space are active. So, my theory is this. If you're ecstatic, and you're out of your normal self, it may be that you are able then to merge, even though you're physically awake, but to merge with your dream space. (0:42:43)

And while in the dream space, you would then be able to levitate. So, my feeling is that Joseph, or the saints or the shamans, when they're so deeply absorbed in something outside of themselves, they make room for their psychic apparatus to be, so to speak, enmeshed with dream space. The dream is like an intermediary between waking world and total unconscious world. And in that state, one temporarily becomes immune to the force of gravity, as it happens in dream space, where there's no evidence of any gravity operating on the body. (0:43:29)

So, you're able to have these experiences. But anyway, I haven't thought of ways to test this, and I'm not much of a scientist, but that's my take. It has some merit, because a number of my colleagues have said, yeah, maybe, but they left it at that. Yeah, maybe in the future, we'll have more science in this area, and there'll be more research essentially looking into it. (0:43:57)

Right. If science could get serious in this stuff, it would be a different thing. Yeah, absolutely. A different world we'd be living in right now. I wanted to ask you just quickly, before we move on to a different topic, I'm conscious of the time, and there's a few things I really want to get stuck into with you as well. (0:44:16)

But just one last quick question in this area is, you must have come across this incorruptible body phenomenon. Oh, yeah. I don't know if that's the right wording. I don't know if that happened to Joseph, I'm assuming it did happen to at least some of the saints that you looked at. (0:44:32)

But what do you make of that? I think it's another real puzzler. It has nothing to do with the greatness of the saints, by the way. Lots of minor saints have that effect. Others, very famous, you might expect. But I have no idea how that would work, you see. (0:44:49)

You ever heard of a case that wasn't... Sorry, sorry to interrupt you, Michael. I was just going to say, have you ever heard of a case that wasn't like a Catholic or religious person? Well, yes, there's a Buddhist case, a Tibetan Buddhist case, written by actually and studied by a Catholic priest. One of those cool open guys, you know. And he writes at length about the one famous case, I've forgotten the name of the mystic, Tibetan mystic. (0:45:32)

But what happens, since the Tibetan mystic thinks that the void is the ultimate symbol and doesn't worry about the spiritual body as the Catholics do, this particular individual, after he died, within about nine days, each day, his body got smaller. And there were observers, including this priest, who knew this was happening. The body got smaller and smaller until it shrank into nothing and it disappeared. (0:45:59)

So that's not quite the same as... but it's something that happens to a corpse. It's a kind of retro PK, right, that we could say is operating on the Catholic mystic or the Tibetan mystic. And what the expectation is, if the expectation is the spiritual body, as in the Christian tradition, you get cases of incorruptible, incorruptibility. (0:46:31)

And by the way, some of those cases are really, really weird, almost comically weird. Like the story of one story that the corpse would sit up and start pointing to people. I mean, really weird stuff that taxes even my wide open sensibility. But it's strange stuff. What can I say? But that was the best I can say in terms of your question. (0:47:02)

Thank you. I mean, it's fascinating. I feel like you have the same kind of frustration as me. It's like we want to understand more about that. We want to know more about that. But it's such a mysterious, elusive and confusing. And what about the ability to go, not for a couple of days, but for months and years without eating anything? There are cases, well-documented cases in the Christian and in the Eastern traditions that I've looked at. (0:47:28)

And these are not people who are, you know, struggling, turning into skeletons. Teresa Neumann in the 20th century was a German mystic. According to everything I've read, the last 35 years of her life, she ate nothing and eliminated nothing. And she was very public. And she was, I would not say fat, but kind of, you know, a nice little plumpish sort of person. (0:47:59)

Never seen, I mean, and she would do things in public with people and go to meetings and everything. This is during the reign of the Nazis, by the way. And the Nazis, they stopped giving her food stamps because she was so well-known that she doesn't eat. That's interesting, right? That's really cool. And she was, yeah, as I say, it started day by day and then eventually, for 35 years, in the last 35 years of her life, she ate nothing. And she was perfectly healthy. (0:48:42)

And she never went into a bathroom. I mean, people were watching. Oh, and they also did a two-week test where they watched her for 14 days, day and night. They had people observing her to make sure she didn't go to the potty. And then she didn't sneak, you know, a hot dog somewhere. (0:49:06)

Nothing for two solid weeks. And anyway, so that's another area of superhuman functioning that we have real evidence for. How does it work? I don't know. She said she was fed, nourished by the host. Oh, I forgot. She did eat something. She would eat a quarter of a Eucharistic host wafer. You know what that is, right? It's just a little white wafer thin. (0:49:48)

Yeah, like communion or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a big thing. And there are just dozens of weird Eucharistic miracles. There's some taking place right now that I've been following in the United States. So these things are happening, but they don't happen all the time. But neither do geniuses appear every time. I mean, there are some people that are just... it happens. (0:50:14)

Yeah, we have the word generational for certain things like in sports and stuff like that. Sometimes you can go generation without somebody coming out that has a certain level of skill or mentality for a sport. And I suppose it's exactly the same thing here. Right. To continue on your journey into these phenomena that are elusive, evasive, confusing, like riddles almost, but so compelling and fascinating. (0:50:37)

You wrote a paper, I don't know how long ago, called Dark Psyche, that hopefully one day you may turn into a book. Could you talk about that paper, about the research that went into it, and about the darker side of psychical research? Well, I didn't look at it until just recently, and I don't remember everything. (0:51:06)

But what prompted me to write this paper, I had a student of mine, again, who told me about her husband who... when he was about 14, 15 years old, he went to Coney Island, and he was with young kids. And he went into a fortune teller, or she kind of beckoned him, and he went in and he paid her maybe some peanuts, whatever it was. (0:51:38)

And she looks at his palm, and she says, oh, I can see you're going to have a beautiful life, you're going to have a beautiful wife. And then she did a couple of very nice things, paused, and then said, and you're going to die when you're 35 years old. And, okay, you're guessing now what happened. The nurse told me this, and that her husband, on his 35th birthday, just keeled over and died for no reason at all. (0:52:17)

When they, when the doctors did an autopsy and all that, nothing, absolutely nothing. So, the idea planted in his mind by a totally irresponsible, imbecile psychic killed him. Somehow, that's all you can say, right? Those are the facts. So, that's how I begin my story about that. And I go into sorcery, where bad-intentioned people can just mentally do things. I'll tell you a very quick story. (0:52:54)

Want to hear a quick story to illustrate it? Absolutely, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a guy I met in Oaxaca, Mexico, about 25 years ago. And this guy was, I was with a buddy of mine or a girlfriend, honestly forget, but what I remember this experience. So, I see this guy, he's an American, he's a tall, slender guy, pale. (0:53:24)

He comes up to me and shakes my hand, and his hand is ice cold in a hot summer day in Mexico. And he starts to tell me a story. He was out looking for ayahuasca, and he passed by a house, a little house, and there was a woman inside an outside shower, bathing, naked. (0:53:50)

So, as any guy might want, he liked the sight of it. And he let her know that he was watching. And what he didn't know that she was a known sorceress. And he found out, when he went home that night, this is a story he told me. Sure, he could have made it up, but I don't think so. (0:54:10)

That's why I'm telling you, I believed him. When he went home and went to sleep, he started to have the most horrible nightmares of bugs and worms crawling all over him, bats attacking him, couldn't sleep. And this went on for a while, until he met some American preacher in the town where he was, and said that, you know, knew that about this particular woman. (0:54:47)

And the Christian preacher did his own magic spiritual practice with this gentleman, and got him to the point where he was fairly functional. And so, that's just a kind of example of a sorcerer. Again, very compelling story in my judgment. Just to jump in on it really quickly. She didn't, she didn't like tell him she was, you know, I'm going to use the word cursing. (0:55:06)

No, she just made contact with him mentally. So, we can't put it down to his own belief, you know, bringing as per your... Oh, right, right, right. Oh, no, no. I don't think anyone could, you'd have to be suicidal to dream stuff like that against yourself. No, but I mean, that's just one case. But anyway, so there are many, many ways in which I try to describe the dark side of the paranormal. (0:55:36)

And one, you know, one historical period was the great witch craze of the 16th and 17th century in Europe, where, in fact, the century that Joseph lived, the 17th century, was at the peak of witchcraft. (0:55:56)

And in this case, there was a period of Western history, which was really nightmarishly horrible. Anyone could accuse anybody of being in league with the devil. And the moment you were accused, you were critiqued or even arrested and tortured. It was routine to torture. And of course, the theologians of that day dreamed up this ideas, you know, they had all their experts on the devil, right? And at any rate, well, I forget exactly how long that period, but at least 100 years of the high point of the witch craze, where hundreds, thousands of innocent people were put to death, maybe not hundreds, but certainly many thousands. (0:56:52)

And mostly women. All you had to do was accuse somebody. There was no trial. The accusation was sufficient. And when they accused you, if you didn't admit that you were doing this or that, they took it upon themselves to torture you, until you did admit it. So that's an ugly, ugly period of history, but also an illustration of how the dark side of the psyche can take possession of not just a few people, but a whole epoch of history. And, you know, lots of marvelous books written on the subject. (0:57:30)

And in my essay there, I quote a lengthy part of one of the classic studies of demonology, which these men, they're all men, make general assessments of women as the female gender. And it would be hilarious if it wasn't horrifying. The official theological, in quotes, claims about women being naturally evil, naturally more lusty than men. Bullshit. Sorry, I shouldn't say that. But it was a bunch of lies. (0:58:25)

And for well over 100 years, it was awful. I mean, so anyway, I go into that in some detail. And I would develop that section, because there are aspects of it not quite the same. But fundamentalism today is still an operative force of unpleasant consequences in many ways. But I don't want to go into that. So, anyway, I also have a discussion in this chapter, which I'm going to expand, obviously, of how a part of sorcery is name-calling, because the power of the name. (0:59:06)

If you start calling somebody a witch, and you're in an atmosphere or an environment where people believe in witchcraft and are disposed for fearful reasons to believe in it, you're already creating habit for that person. And we see the same thing today in politics. And I won't mention the name of a particular politician who is talented at destroying people with nasty names he dreams up for them, which is not my idea of reason or rational politics, and I'm sure it's not yours. (0:59:42)

So, I get into that. What I try to do in this chapter is the classic forms of the dark side and the historical manifestations, but I want to make it very clear it's happening today in different ways, subtle ways. So, that's pretty much the main thrust of that. (1:00:08)

But I am going to work on this, and I'm pretty sure I can get it published easily. Because it's not just about the paranormal, it's the dark side. So, publishers like that, you see. Yeah, for sure. I don't think you'll have any problem. And you think people will be queuing up to read it. (1:00:27)

I, for one, will want to read it. It's too curious. Do you cover... I'm sorry? Sorry, go on. No, no, no. I just... you've got a copy. I mean, and any comments... I mean, remember, it's incomplete. It's just raw beginnings. (1:00:35)

Any thoughts you have when you do read it, let me know. Yeah, absolutely. I will. Yeah, yeah. What was I going to say? I just... oh, I almost lost it there. Okay. Possessions. Did you cover possessions in it as well, did you? Because this is something I started to think about. And, you know, there are some types of possessions that seem very different to others, let's say. (1:00:56)

I think I briefly spoke to Ed Kelly about this. And that's where he kind of got inspired to connect us. But he mentioned, I think it was you, he said, that had looked into this phenomenon in great detail. And I think maybe out of thousands of cases, or at least hundreds, you did come across maybe two or something that were seemingly like this diabolical possession, where, you know, like the things that are horror movies, where kids are speaking in Latin and walking up walls or what have you. I don't know the details, but the kind of the really scary stuff. (1:01:32)

Are you familiar with that? I am, but I'm not enough to speak even with any names or references. But there's no question about the fact that about this business of enhanced telepathic contact and speaking in, you know, languages that you've never learned. But, you know, in a sense, we're all partially possessed by anything that fascinates us, you know, in witchcraft, the word fascinate was a key word. (1:02:07)

When we say, oh, he's a fascinating talker or something, that's one thing. But fascination in witchcraft means a hypnotic possession of a person. And so, it entails a form of possession where you lose your autonomy and are sucked into a whirlpool, as it were, of mental activity that's not your own or is totally irregular for your personality. (1:02:38)

But there's lots of material out there. But I don't really have any specific examples off the top of my head that I can share with you right now. But what I have read convinces me of the reality. I mean, it's a type of ecstasy, right? Possession. So, if ecstasy is emptying yourself and then letting the beautiful and the divine enter you, it could also be a means through which the darker aspects of the subconscious mind could take possession of you. (1:03:16)

So, it seems to me that if ecstasy is possible, so is possession. Do you think there is like things such as good and evil, or do you think that's too simplistic a way of looking at what is ultimately kind of naturalistic? I do not believe in entities in the universe or in life that are essentially dedicated to harm or produce evil effects on people. (1:03:53)

But we can, you know, there are reasonable definitions of good and bad, or good and evil. I prefer the word bad than evil, because it does have that connotation of something divinely sinister. And there are things that lead you to believe that there might be something like that, but I myself don't believe it. I don't believe in the devil, but I do believe that there are people of diabolic disposition, so to speak. (1:04:20)

I think lying is a form of diabolic possession. I mean, there are people that can't tell the truth, and what could be more destructive? If you have a malignant liar in your midst, in your party, in your world. And at what point does it become abnormal, paranormal? It's difficult to say. It's difficult, you know. And one wants to be careful about the language. (1:04:54)

In a nutshell, have you speculated in your own mind what might be behind, you know, like I say, these cases of children that have like a diabolical possession, where they're doing things that are really, you know, disturbing their family, or whatever. They're speaking in the same things that they've never said, and they're acting like, you know, totally different and out of character. (1:05:25)

Have you allowed yourself to speculate on that and think what could cause that? Because obviously it's easy to think, oh yeah, evil or bad, or like, you know, some kind of force coming through that's, yeah, the opposite of good, that's bad, evil. But short of that simplistic way of looking at it, what else do you think could be behind that? What could explain that? (1:05:43)

It's possible that some highly receptive people, under the influence of hypnotists, for example, or some kind of a psychic, might be able to control them by suggestion. The history of hypnosis and mesmerism early in the 18th century, more interesting than it is today, are full of examples of this sort of thing. And so, the source of the evil would be the suggestions in a person's education. (1:06:25)

I mean, look, there are things that one finds in one's own experience, perverse actions that we may have. I don't know, or let's say sometimes I'm annoyed by somebody, and I have a momentary impulse to say something very cruel that I know is not justified. And then I do it, you see. (1:06:52)

It's a kind of possession. So, there are degrees here of influence, just as there are degrees, incredible varieties and different degrees of paranormal phenomena. I mean, like PK can be shockingly powerful in its effects, but it can be very subtle, just causing one to have an anxious mood, a rise in maybe a feeling of a stomachache or something, rather than a complete shattering effect. But as long as we have, as long as we accept the reality of psi, right, the telepathic, the clairvoyant, the mental and the physical dimension of the paranormal, all kinds of things become possible and depends on the culture, the context, the moods, and the personalities involved. (1:07:53)

So, increasingly, my sense is that anything is possible. But again, I want evidence, I want to be sure. But I'm open, but I have to take it case by case. In general, I say one thing, but specifically, I zero in on the real case. That's the right way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. Just in a kind of, in a nutshell, well, let's move on a little bit from what we were talking about. (1:08:34)

Let's move on from the dark side for now. Maybe we'll get back to it in a future conversation, I hope. But for now, let's just talk briefly, maybe five minutes or so, about what happens after we die. So, I'm sure you're with me in that the body of evidence suggests we survive in some capacity. (1:08:52)

I guess the nutshell answer I'm looking for you is what are your thoughts and speculations and feelings on in what capacity we survive and how that would look? Well, there are two things. There are some philosophical arguments that I think are important. And, for example, I'll just say this briefly. There are philosophical and empirical data that clearly suggest, sometimes very strongly, that we do survive. (1:09:28)

What happens when we do survive? That's another question. But that we do survive. And the philosophical argument is simply the fact that our minds and our bodies are two different things. And we are constantly, we cannot escape our minds. At this moment, I'm embodying here, I had an operation on my hand recently, but it's healing. Physical, it's out there. (1:10:11)

My thoughts that are directing what I'm saying, you can't see, I can't see, they're invisible and tangible. And I can never get out of my mind as long as I'm alive. I'm always in my mind somehow. So, it is something separate but intimately related to my body. So, the question then is, if two things are intimately related, and something can happen, well, death, that would simply separate them. (1:10:40)

Okay? So, I'm not shocked by the idea that the mind would survive the death of the body. But, I don't believe it unless I have evidence. So, the next step is the empirical. Now, nowadays, we're getting a lot of information about the near-death experience. A lot of people don't know that's only one form of evidence that points suggestively toward life after death. (1:11:12)

There's reincarnation stuff. But there's also apparitions of the dead. Okay, here's one very brief experience that I had. (1:11:19)

It was a night, it was a very hot night. I was living in New Jersey at that time. And I got out of my bed and went into the living room, where it was cooler. And I lay down, and I'm awake. And I suddenly look up, and there's my dead grandmother, right in front of me. And with her is a woman. I don't know who the heck she is. (1:11:46)

And I'm staring, and they're sort of looking at me and through me at the same time. And then they vanished. But I got a very vivid picture. So, I called up my mom, told her, I'm coming to visit you. I've got a question. She lived in a storehouse in Manhattan. And I told her what happened. (1:12:15)

She took out a photograph of, on her mother's side, the grandmother that I saw, family. I had never seen this photograph. I immediately picked out the woman, who actually looked a little bit like my mother. She was a very beautiful woman, by the way, who was next to my, some of my grandmothers. They were cutie pies, both of them. And so, I recognized immediately. (1:12:49)

So, I don't consider that proof of survival, but it's certainly highly suggestive. How was I able to dream, well, not in dream, have an apparition of a person I recognized that I've never seen before. My mother told me something that may have explained the visitation from my great aunt or something, my grandmother's sister. This woman, when I was born, wanted, came to visit my mother, to see me. (1:13:19)

My mother had me in a little crib. She was embarrassed about the crib. It was a broken down crib. And she said, he's sleeping, don't leave him alone. And so, she and her sister, who was my grandmother, chatted and then left. So, my speculation is that maybe in the afterlife, my great grandmother's, rather my grandmother's sister and grandmother got together one day, let's go visit Mike, see if we can catch him. (1:13:51)

And that's the only thing, connection that I can make. But they were all, to answer your question, there were all kinds of evidence pointing towards survival. And some of them are so compelling that it's very hard to, you know, to stop saying this is suggestive. It has to be, it's an inference that we're making here. And I, all kinds of stuff, and it's been throughout history, there's evidence for these things. And so... If we broke up the big body of evidence, because we're both on the same page, the body of evidence, the reason it's so compelling is because there's so much of it. (1:14:36)

But if we broke all of that up into separate elements, like Endes, like you say, reincarnation, apparitions, mediumship, whatever, these different areas, which area would you say is the most compelling as a standalone? I think that you have to see them together. In other words, the combination... Just going to avoid my question. No, I don't have an answer for it. I wouldn't... Right now, I've been watching a lot of NDEs on YouTube. And it astonishes me, night after night, they're all very similar, but all very different. (1:15:18)

And it blows my mind. And these are just ordinary people. They're so eloquent. And it's transformed them completely. It's hard to resist the feeling that they're telling the truth. Yeah, definitely. And it's so widespread. It's so, you know, there's so many universal elements to it. I don't know if you're familiar with the work of Gregory Shushan. Oh, yeah. I know him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's done some brilliant work into this. (1:15:49)

And it really is cross-cultural through history. And yeah, really fascinating phenomenon. Let's talk briefly. I know I haven't got you for too much longer. Let's talk briefly about UFOs, the UFO phenomenon. We've kind of mentioned it a couple of times in passing. Oh, and I did. I don't know how long your story is about Elizabeth, your old student, and the apparition. (1:16:08)

Before we move on, I don't know if you wanted to quickly drop that anecdote that you mentioned. Oh, that was the anecdote about her visiting a student? The ghost. I think you said there was another one. (1:16:19)

Oh, right, right, right. Okay, I'll begin with that. Let's see. During the time that I knew Liz, Elizabeth, she kept telling me that her house was haunted. And I tried, you know, I listened, but she had taken a class of mine. And I would see her often, and she kept me, updated me. So one day, let's see. She, oh, yes, I wanted to just say a few more things. (1:17:03)

I thought this ghost was, I call it the dirty old ghost, because she had two daughters. And this apparition would appear and gape at the girls when they're taking showers. Another story about taking a shower. But so he sounded like an unsavory sort of a character. And I kept telling them to, when you see him, just curse him out. Tell him to scram, you brother. (1:17:32)

Don't feel any fear. And then I actually brought a photograph of Padre Pio. And I said, you know, he's a spiritually powerful guy. Just put this up somewhere, and that'll scare him away. What happened that very night, where she put it inside a glass cabinet, no one could get near it. Disappeared. Just vanished. Yeah. Well, a while later, I'm trying to remember the setting. (1:18:05)

I know what happened. Oh, okay. I went to her house to spend the night. Because she kept telling him about this ghost. She showed me the part of the house where she lived, where it appeared often enough. So I parked myself on a couch, and sort of facing this area, hot area, where he supposedly appeared. And everybody went to sleep, and I climbed onto my couch and started reading. (1:18:42)

And I'm in a small room. And suddenly, about two o'clock in the morning, I'm still awake, I hear a gong rings. And I look up on the wall of the room I'm sitting, and there's a gong with a stick. But there's no one in the room but me. (1:19:05)

So to be sure that sound is related to what I'm seeing, I stand up and I take it off the wall, and I hit it. It's the exact same sound. So I said to myself, I'll be darned, he's here. The ghost let me know that he's here. And then I felt jubilant. And after hitting these gongs, Liz comes downstairs and says, what's going on? And I said, well, I think your pal is trying to say hello to me. (1:19:33)

And she says, oh, yeah, he does stuff like that. And then she goes back up to sleep. And I figured that was it. And I'm feeling triumphant that I got a definite reaction. I didn't expect anything to happen. So I go back and I start writing this little thing up. (1:19:52)

And then I look up into the corner that she had indicated was where the dirty-minded ghost like to appear. And there he was. And what I see was maybe 20 feet away from me in the corner of the room. I'm lying back on the couch. (1:20:09)

And what I see is a fluttering, transparent form that is clearly human. And I look at it. And the instant I look at it, it comes straight at me. And it fucking wraps itself right around my face and paralyzes me. And I'm trying to cry out, he's here. (1:20:38)

I can't. I can't talk. He's right in front of me. And I'm both totally terrified and totally joyful that I'm being attacked by a ghost. You could still breathe, right? Yeah. But it lasted very, it was very brief. And then gone. He was gone. And I waited until the morning to tell Liz about this. (1:21:01)

And I've never forgotten. I mean, that was a ghost. Anyone who doubts ghosts, they're real. Okay. And so, again, that was a very striking personal experience. Yeah, I imagine. But again, it's the one form. It involved, it was a physical effect. It was visual. And the intent, I think he was, he knew who I was and was trying to scare me out of something. (1:21:29)

Because I was telling them, and maybe he didn't. But that's the impression I got. Like, he's going to let me know that he's for real and try to terrify me into silence. That's an incredible experience. Yeah, it was a striking experience. So I've had, trying to think, I've had so many psychic, I can't remember them all. (1:21:55)

And they come back. Sometimes I write them up or use them in something I'm writing. But as far as the general point about life after death, there are several different kinds of evidence. And they are all highly suggested. There is one counter argument that is valid, that may be valid. And that is the so-called super psi. You've probably heard of that. (1:22:29)

And I think if you assume an almost infinite capacity of psi to do almost anything like that, you're already in a realm where it's plausible to believe in the separate existence of a psyche, psyche personality. But it is remotely conceivable to me. In fact, I recently wrote a post about this. I said, suppose all of the psychic phenomena of suggesting life after death are illusions projected by nature or our subconscious. (1:23:02)

What's the motivation? What's the point of it? It's very difficult to imagine that this is... What does nature... Because if anything, you'd expect us to need a fear of death, right? And nature would want us to have a fear of death to survive... Exactly. And when you're having, for example, a near-death experience, what good is nature doing us by helping to conjure up these illusions, which then you're going to die. (1:23:38)

And it's not going to have any benefit, you see. So, again, I can't swear that we're going to survive, but I won't be surprised, that's how I'll put it, if I find myself still conscious. There's a huge amount of evidence, different kinds, and prolonged from the beginning of history. I mean, Fraser wrote a bunch of books about primitive societies, and he found that they had total belief in life after death. (1:24:12)

Well, partly because they didn't have science to contradict what they were experiencing. (1:24:17)

But it is interesting that the primitive societies, without fail, are absolutely convinced, without any doubt. Now, I know what the critic will say, who wants to say, well, they're ignorant, they don't know about delusions, projection, and all the rest. But I find that a little incredible. Absolutely, I'm with you. So, yeah, if it's okay with you, just a couple of minutes, your thoughts on UFOs, just, I guess, to kind of make it easier for you to put it in a nutshell. (1:24:55)

I guess I'm looking for things like your thoughts on potential origins, or what's behind the phenomenon. If there's an agenda there, is it, you know, a non-human intelligence? Is it something more closer to home? Is it, you know, is it something that, is there relation to consciousness there? There's so much we could talk about. We could have this conversation for two hours, and maybe we will in the future go a deep dive on this. (1:25:14)

But for now, just your, yeah, your really brief thoughts. First of all, I am convinced on the basis of my own experience, that these entities are real, and that they're not from this planet. And my own experience involved a religious theme, because I was listening to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost, jazz piece. (1:25:45)

And then, after that, then that had the entity, which was just a cluster of lights. It shot over onto the dome of Our Lady of Pompeii, Catholic Church, and beamed at us. And then came back to where it was, to let us know for sure, it was the same entity, danced around a little bit while the music is going. And then, when in a fraction of a second, I was able to go to the window and watch, it went zip, zip, zip, vanished over the Empire State Building in a fraction of a second. (1:26:17)

So, that's nothing terrestrial there. And tons of other evidence. I mean, the top-notch pilots of the leading aircraft, you know, fighter jets, I've watched them and read their experiences, that these entities, whatever they are, they are technologically beyond us, completely beyond us. So, it's not just my experience. Where they come from, I get the sense that there are a multiplicity of types that are visiting us. (1:27:00)

Yeah. Not all of them are nice. There are some nasty... I have upstairs two or three shelves of books just on UFOs that I've been collecting for the past half century. And they are around in all shapes and forms. But I do think that some of the main reasons they're around right now, especially since 1947, is the fact that we have invented weapons of mass destruction in which it is now possible for one man to press a button and launch a process that will bring life on Earth to an end, an atomic war. (1:27:46)

And I think that's why they're here, are more explicit. And I think that they seem to support religion perhaps as a source of morality, inspiration for morality, not that they are themselves. But it is puzzling. (1:28:07)

Yeah. Visions of Mary, for example, in 1917, Fatterman, Jacques Vallée, wrote a beautiful analysis of what happened. The miracle of the sun. And there's no doubt that the phenomenology of UFOs was mixed with the phenomenology of the Virgin appearing to these three children. And then what happened with the sun, the dance of the sun, the sun didn't dance. If the sun danced, we'd be toast, the end of life on Earth. That's absurd. (1:28:41)

But naive Catholics still believe the sun danced, you see. It didn't dance. What happened was a UFO created the illusion. And it scared the crap out of everybody. You know, the ground had just been raining violently. And after that game that the entities played with the sun, everything dried up. We're seeing 30 miles away, people were healed. (1:29:15)

It's one of the most amazing paranormal phenomena in the whole of history. And it's closely related to UFOs. So, it's very mysterious, the UFO phenomenon. Again, morally speaking, there are two dimensions, I think. One positive and constructive, and the other rather distressingly dangerous, I think. But the phenomena are real. (1:29:54)

I mean, there is no question about it. And, you know, 1952 was right over Washington DC. I mean, I wasn't watching it or anything like that. But anyway, yeah, I don't know what else I can say. It's a big mystery, but it's absolutely real. And incredibly fascinating. I'm amazed that more people, mainstream folks are not talking about it. I know, especially, you know, scientists and people that are supposed to be intrigued on the cutting edge and looking at new things. (1:30:30)

I do think maybe it's about to catch the public's attention on a larger scale. I don't know if you've been keeping up with David Grush and the latest whistleblowers and all the news. So, I do think it's going to unfold. And what you were saying about how bizarre it is, I think there seems to be that kind of trickster element that seems to show up a lot in the areas of Psy and even looking into survival after death. (1:30:53)

There's always this consistent theme of, oh, you think you're getting a handle on this? No, you're not. Because you're just throwing a spanner in the works, like curveballs. You said you think, yeah, so not human. Would you speculate as to whether you think it's something... you did kind of mention multiple dimensions. (1:31:13)

So, would you be more on the side of, yeah, interdimensional than extraplanetary? Yeah, I have my doubts about one or two things. Either science is so evolved, perhaps thousands of years, that they can just zap around the universe. The other is, I'm not even sure what the difference would be in making this point, but we often hear of many people talking about another dimension. (1:31:41)

And see, that would, in a sense, solve the problem of distance. Surely, it's hard to believe that something traveled, you know, thousands of lightyears to come to Greenwich Village and dance with me and John Coltrane's music. But if they are... oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention, whatever it was, had to know what we were doing. We didn't have a sign out on the roof. (1:32:08)

We're listening to John Coltrane, right? We were listening to John Coltrane, with that religious title. But yeah, it's a complete mystery, the UFO phenomenon. And there's an overlap with the paranormal, because it's lots of stories of levitation. And all the communications with these entities is said to occur telepathically. So we already have a connection there between the two. (1:32:41)

You know, our scientific evolution is just very primitive compared to what is possible. Imagine a scientific culture that's a thousand years old, unlike our couple of hundred years old. Who knows? Who knows? That's exciting. (1:32:56)

You just... it's, you know, I love thinking like this, that how many civilizations are out there that are, as you say, a thousand or ten thousand or, you know, 250,000 or a million years older than us. Yeah, the possibilities of, you know, we probably don't even have the imagination necessarily to be able to think. Exactly. You know, one of the things, Thornton, I'd like to share. (1:33:30)

Just as science evolves, we're getting to understand the unbelievable, unthinkable vastness of the universe. Same thing is happening with the mind. The more we learn about the mind, the more complex, the richer, the more far out it becomes. So, you know, happy evolution, humanity. We've gotten a lot to learn. But in the meantime, we are facing a climate catastrophe, and the threat of nuclear war is now heightened. (1:34:01)

And we have people, even in the United States, that are, I think, crazy, completely crazy people out of touch with reality. And I recently came across some UFO story, but I didn't know that the military is filled with Christian fundamentalists, and they don't want to talk about UFOs. And I didn't know that until recently. Because I think they think they're demonic, right? Exactly. And that's in the way of science, of progress, of understanding. (1:34:45)

So, yeah, it's what a strange time to be alive. It is, isn't it? You couldn't write this stuff. It's kind of thrilling just to be alive in the 21st century, because day in and day out, things are happening. I have a little notebook where I have facts that are so bizarre, you know. And I've forgotten, I write them down, and there's so many strange things that I've never thought of or heard of every day, you know. Some of them are just funny and weird. (1:35:15)

Others have implications that are dizzying. So, what can we say? I'd like to read that notepad at some point. No. No, look, this has been so fascinating. You've been so generous with your time, Michael. I could talk to you for hours. This has been brilliant. Just before I let you go, are there any last words you want to share with people that have watched and listened? (1:35:41)

Any kind of message you want to send to them? Well, I think learning about the mind and its potentialities, and not to be afraid, and don't think that you're... don't be intimidated by people who want to make short shrift of your interest in the extraordinary and the unusual. Because we are immersed in the extraordinary and the unusual. Explore. We have great opportunities for the future to evolve and learn and hopefully survive as it speaks. That's a valuable lesson. (1:36:22)

Explore. I love it. It's valuable. Explore. Thank you again, Michael, so much. I really appreciate this and I wish you all my best. I look forward to doing it again. All right. Take care. I enjoyed it myself. Thank you to Michael Grosso for talking with me. Thank you for listening. And thank you to our for helping to make it possible. Please see the description for links to Michael's books and more. (1:36:44)

If you enjoyed the interview, please consider subscribing to continue unravelling the universe with us. If you'd like to help us keep making content, you can contribute monthly via Patreon. Thank you. (1:36:54)

(2025-08-06)