Robert Guffey の "Chameleo" 発言(2018-03-18 2of2) の整理

May 17, 2025 · 158 min read

AI 要約 : カメレオン現象の核心

提供されたテキストは、「Where Did The Road Go?」というポッドキャストのエピソードの一部であり、「謎多きカメレオン現象」と題されています。このエピソードでは、ホストのSoraya氏がRobert Guffey氏と、彼の著書「Camellia（カメレオ）」の後半について対談しています。対談では、薬物依存症でありながら謎の集団ストーキングと不可視技術による監視に苦しむDamien氏の経験や、その関連性が示唆されるUFO現象、メン・イン・ブラック、そして政府の関与の可能性などが語られています。また、Robert Guffey氏自身の奇妙な体験や、自身の著作活動とこれらの現象との関連性についても触れられています。

前置き

以下は本日の別記事、

Robert Guffey の "Chameleo" 発言(2018-03-10 1of2) の整理

の続編に相当（今回は情報源動画の 2of2 が対象）。

Youtube 動画(1:25:40)

Robert Guffey on Chameleo - Part 2 of 2 - March 17, 2018

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsSXg_THbz0

要約

要約書：「謎多きカメレオン現象」より

このブリーフィングドキュメントは、「謎多きカメレオン現象」と題された音声ソースの抜粋に基づいています。主にデイミアンという人物が経験した奇妙な出来事と、その語り手（以下、「話し手」）自身が関連して経験した現象に焦点を当てています。このソースは、監視、ハラスメント、異常なテクノロジー、そして政府機関によるこれらの現象の悪用を示唆する重要なテーマを提示しています。

主要テーマ：

監視とハラスメント: デイミアンの経験の中核は、継続的な監視と嫌がらせです。これは、物理的な追跡、見慣れない人物による接触、および小型飛行物体の出現という形で現れます。「それはバンをどこでも追いかけているだけだ。」 (00:02:47)
異常なテクノロジー: このソースは、2004年という時代において、まだ一般的でなかったドローンや小型飛行物体といった高度な技術の使用に言及しています。「しかし、2004年には誰もドローンについて話していませんでした。」 (00:02:17) また、不可視化技術や「障害物迷彩技術」についても議論されています。
心理的作戦と現実の改変: デイミアンや他の被害者が経験した出来事は、彼らの精神状態を疑問視させるように設計されているように見えます。「それが彼らの狙いです。彼らはあなたの正気を疑わせたいのです。」 (01:29:39) フレイトの「不気味」の概念が、これらの心理的効果を生み出すための戦略として言及されています。「フレイトがこの感情を読者に植え付けるために、フィクション作家が何をすべきかを説明しているうちに、これがデイミアンに対して使用されたすべてのものだと気づきました。」 (00:39:25)
政府機関の関与とフォークロアの利用: CIAのような政府機関が、人々の恐怖や既存の神話（メン・イン・ブラック、超常現象）を利用して、その作戦の効果を高めている可能性が示唆されています。「政府はこれらの神話、民話、実際に起こっている本当の超常現象に非常に精通しており、それを有利に利用していると思います。」 (01:02:07) CIAの初期の職員が文学背景を持っていたという事実は、心理的作戦における物語と象徴の使用に関連付けられています。
超常現象とテクノロジーの重複: 一部の経験は技術的なもの（ノイズキャンセリングなど）である可能性がある一方で、話し手は超常現象と技術的なものの間に重複があり、「両方が同時に起こっている」可能性があると示唆しています。(00:45:08)
軍事誘拐 (MILAB) の可能性: ベティとバーニー・ヒルを含むいくつかの事例は、エイリアン誘拐と軍事誘拐の側面を併せ持っており、軍事誘拐の方がよりトラウマ的であると説明されています。(01:08:36)

最も重要なアイデア/事実：

デイミアンの健康悪化と逃走: デイミアンは経験によって急速に健康状態が悪化しており、ハラスメントから逃れるために移動を開始します。「彼はその時点で急速に悪化していて、去ることを決心しました。」 (00:01:23)
見慣れない人物からの直接的な発言: ミネソタのレストルームで、見慣れない男性がデイミアンに接近し、「物を返せば、すべてがなくなる」と懇願するようなトーンで話しかけました。これは、彼らがデイミアンを追跡していることを認める数少ない直接的なやり取りの一つでした。「『もし物を返してくれれば、これが全部なくなるんだ』と言いました。」 (00:03:56) その後、別の人物が現れて最初の人物を引きずり出します。
サウピ・セールスの息子との出会い: デイミアンがテキサスを旅している途中で、ドラッグ経験のあるサウピ・セールスの息子に遭遇し、その経験について話そうとしますが、リハビリ施設に行くことを勧められます。(00:02:57)
話し手自身の経験: 話し手自身も、「妨害的な出来事」（obstructive incidents）を経験しており、これはデイミアンのギャングストーキングほどではないものの、奇妙な同期性や監視されている感覚を含んでいます。「私がちょうど説明したような、妨害的な出来事としてしか説明できません。」 (00:27:12) 例として、ゴミ箱を漁る男や、不審な行動をとる車の少年たちが挙げられています。(00:21:47)
不可視化技術と夜間視力ゴーグル: リチャード・シュンガードの「カメリア・プロジェクト」は、不可視化技術の研究に焦点を当てていました。夜間視力ゴーグルがこの不可視化を破る可能性があるという推測がなされており、スキニーウォーカー牧場でのリモートビューアーの証言と関連付けられています。「そして、それはおそらくリチャード・シュンガードと私とデイミアンが到達した結論でした。」 (00:57:52)
フォークロアの悪用: メン・イン・ブラックの事例は、政府機関が既存のフォークロア（1960年代のジョン・キール著書）を意図的に利用して恐怖心を煽っていることを示唆しています。「彼らは明らかにこの服装をした人間でしたが、彼らは明らかに民俗学を理解しており、何らかの方法で威嚇することを意図していました。」 (00:49:53) フィリピンでの吸血鬼に関する軍事作戦も例として挙げられています。(00:50:24)
フィクションの役割: 話し手は、自身の小説（「Spies and Saucers」）や他の作品（ワシントン・アーヴィングの「リップ・ヴァン・ウィンクル」など）が、証明できない真実やタブーについて議論するための媒体として機能していると説明しています。「彼らはこれらの物語を聞きます。彼らはそれが現実であることを証明できません。それで彼らはフィクションを作成し、これらのフィクションを通して私たちに伝わってきます。」 (01:10:56)
エイリアン誘拐の神話の創造: 話し手は、ある政府機関が、エイリアン誘拐現象の神話を創造するために脚本家を雇ったというフィクションの可能性について述べています。「彼は、彼に起こっていることだと思わせるために使用されているすべてのものを自分が作り上げていることに気づき、非常に罪悪感を感じるようになります。」 (01:04:50)
デイミアンの記憶の不安定さ: デイミアン自身は、自分が経験した出来事のすべてを完全に記憶しているわけではなく、話し手が記録した内容と記憶が異なることがあると述べられています。「デイミアンはこれらすべてを覚えていないようです。」 (01:13:03)

結論として、このソースは、個人に対する高度な監視とハラスメント、異常なテクノロジーの存在、そして政府機関がこれらの現象に関与している可能性、特に心理的作戦や既存の超常現象のフォークロアを利用して恐怖を煽っている可能性を強く示唆しています。また、超常現象と技術的なものの間の境界線が曖昧であること、およびフィクションがこれらの理解し難い経験を表現する上で重要な役割を果たしていることを示唆しています。ソース全体を通して、被害者が経験する心理的混乱と、経験の現実性を疑問視させる意図が強調されています。

対話

Me:

添付ソースは動画の文字起こしです。事実なのか捏造なのかが定かではない物語になっています。この文字起こしを元に、内容を詳しく整理して。検索利便性のために、人名や地名などの固有名詞は英語表記のままとして。「話者が事実と主張している事柄」と、「話者の主観や想像」は区別して。

提供された文字起こしは、ポッドキャスト「Where Did The Road Go?」のエピソード「謎多きカメレオン現象」の一部であり、主にRobert Guffey氏へのインタビューの内容が記録されています。この内容は、Robert Guffey氏の著書『Cameleo』や、彼自身およびその知人が体験したとされる出来事について語られており、話者たちはこれらの出来事を事実として主張していますが、客観的な真偽はソースだけでは判断できません。この文字起こしは、一連の不可解な出来事や主張、それに対する話者の考察や推測からなる「物語」として整理することができます。

以下に、文字起こしの内容を「話者が事実と主張している事柄」と「話者の主観や想像」に区別して整理します。人名や地名などの固有名詞は英語表記のまま記載します。

文字起こし内容の整理

1. Damien氏の体験談（Robert Guffey氏が聞いた話として主張する事柄）

Robert Guffey氏の友人であるDamien氏が体験したとされる一連の出来事が語られています。Robert Guffey氏は、これらの体験談は『Cameleo』の中心的な内容であると述べています。

話者が事実と主張する事柄:
- 2004年初頭、San DiegoでDamien氏の体調が急速に悪化していた。彼は血尿が出て、体重が減り、まるで強制収容所の犠牲者のようだった。
- Damien氏はバンに荷物を積んでSan Diegoを出発した。
- 移動中、小さな円盤のような物体がバンを追跡していると、Damien氏からRobert Guffey氏に電話があった。それはマンホールの蓋より少し小さいくらいのサイズだった。
- Damien氏はSan DiegoからTexas、Minnesotaへと移動した。
- TexasでSoupy Sales' sonに出会った。Soupy Sales' sonはDamien氏にリハビリに行くように助言した。
- Minnesotaで立ち寄ったトイレで、見知らぬ男がDamien氏の隣で手を洗いながら「ものを返してくれれば、この全ては終わる」と懇願するようなトーンで話しかけてきた。
- その直後、二人目の男がトイレに入ってきて、一人目の男の襟首を掴んで引きずり出した。
- バンが故障した際に、親切な二人組（"good old boys"）に助けられ、彼らの家へ連れて行かれた。Damien氏はこの二人組に自身の体験の全てを話したが、彼らは非常に懐疑的だった。
- Robert Guffey氏はその夜10時頃にその二人組の一人から電話を受け、Damien氏の車の故障と彼の話の真偽について尋ねられた。Robert Guffey氏はその話が真実であると答えた。
- Robert Guffey氏が電話で話している間、彼らの家の外に小さな飛行物体がホバリングしていると、その二人組が描写した。
- その二人組は当初、Damien氏に悪魔が憑依していると考え、「Protocols of the Elders of Zion」や「Behold the Pale Horse」といった本を所有していた。
- Robert Guffey氏はその二人組を説得し、Damien氏にガソリンを入れて旅を続けさせることに成功した。
- その後、Damien氏はWinona, Kansasに到着し、しばらくは追跡がなくなったように見えた。Robert Guffey氏は、もしDamien氏がPacific Beachを離れれば終わるだろうと考えていた。
- しかし、San Franciscoに引っ越した後、Damien氏は主要な抗議活動（Occupy Wall Streetなど）がある日は再び集中的な追跡を受けるようになった。これは他の人々も経験している現象（静寂と再発の繰り返し）と類似している。
- Damien氏は電話でランダムな数字の羅列を聞くことがあった。これはJohn Keelの「Mothman Prophecies」にも記述されている現象（会話への第三者の介入と数字の読み上げ）と類似しており、声が頭の中で聞こえるという報告もある。
- Damien氏は見慣れない奇妙なエンティティが部屋に現れるのを見たことがあり、宇宙人と dealしているのではないかと思ったことがある。
- Damien氏は過去の出来事について、正確に思い出せないことが多かった。Robert Guffey氏が記録した内容とDamien氏の記憶が食い違うこともあった。
話者の主観や想像:
- （トイレでの見知らぬ男について）「まるで、ものを返してくれれば、もう君を追いかけたくない、というようなトーンだった」
- （二人組について）「彼らはDamien氏に自家製のエクソシズム（悪魔払い）を施そうとしていたのではないか？」
- （追跡について）「Damien氏がPacific Beachを離れれば終わるだろう」とRobert Guffey氏は思っていた。
- （Richard Schoengerdとの出会いについて）「これはDamien氏の心を落ち着かせ、彼が狂っているわけではないと理解させるのに役立つだろう」と考えたが、実際はさらに動揺させた。
- （Damien氏の記憶について）「外傷やその他の原因によるものか、常にそうだったのかは分からない」

2. Robert Guffey氏自身の体験と関連する出来事

Robert Guffey氏は、Damien氏の体験を調査し書籍を執筆する中で、自身や他の体験者にも同様の不可解な出来事が起こったと述べています。

話者が事実と主張する事柄:
- 『Camellia』出版後、Minnesotaの成功した弁護士がオフィスを訪ねてきた。彼はgang stalkingを経験しており、Robert Guffey氏のインタビューを聞いて、自身の体験を説明できるのは彼だけだと感じた。この弁護士は事業を辞め、カリフォルニアのビーチで暮らしていたが、嫌がらせは止まらなかった。
- この弁護士は、経験が始まった直前に、警察署を相手取ったハラスメント訴訟でアフリカ系アメリカ人のイスラム教徒の女性の弁護を担当し、勝訴していた。
- この弁護士は、自宅でパーティー中に、ユニフォームのようなものを着た人物の奇妙な輪郭を見たことがあり、Robert Guffey氏が語ったDamien氏の体験と類似していた。
- Palm Desertに住む女優も、Damien氏と同様に嫌がらせや監視を受けていた。砂漠の道で追跡された後、車を降りて岩陰に隠れたところ、存在を感じ、股間を掴まれた。
- Southern Californiaの別の女性も監視ハラスメントを経験しており、なぜ始まったかは不明だった。彼女はベッドで友人と横になっていた際に、太ももを撫でられるのを感じ、それが部屋から走り去るのを見た。
- Robert Guffey氏は、Damien氏がRichard Schoengerdについて教えてくれたことで、彼にインタビューを行い、Schoengerd氏がDamien氏の話を驚くほど裏付けた。Schoengerd氏はSAICとNavyに言及し、海軍は10年前に彼に話を聞きに来ていたと述べた。
- Robert Guffey氏は、Damien氏との関わりの中で、自身も監視されているような感覚や奇妙な電話を受けるなど、John Keelの「Mothman Prophecies」に記述されているような現象を経験した。
- Robert Guffey氏が住んでいたLong BeachのアパートにDamien氏が泊まりに来た後、Damien氏はRobert Guffey氏に「注意して、新しい人が人生に入ってきたら警戒して」と言った。
- その翌日、かつての教え子で友人のSharon氏と会う約束をしていた。彼女はバスでLong Beachに来て、Robert Guffey氏のアパート近くで降りる予定だった。
- Sharon氏がバスを降りると、彼女はバスで出会ったという見知らぬ男と一緒にいた。その男は自分をdock workerだと紹介し、Robert Guffey氏とSharon氏を高級レストラン「555」でのランチに誘った。
- レストランの順番待ちの間、Sharon氏が電話のために席を外した隙に、その男はRobert Guffey氏にMilton William Cooperの「Behold the Pale Horse」という本について尋ね、「陰謀論についてどう思うか」「ブッシュ大統領についてどう思うか、誰かが彼を排除すべきだと思うか」などと質問した。Robert Guffey氏は疑わしい質問を避け、ブッシュ大統領を支持していると答えた。
- その男はMilton William Cooperを「Milton William Cooper」とフルネームで呼んだが、これは普通知っている人がする呼び方ではないと感じた。
- Sharon氏が戻ってきてからも、その男はIlluminatiについて話し、Milton William Cooperの「Protocols of the Elders of Zion」に関する見解（ユダヤ人をIlluminatiに置き換えれば全て真実になるという主張）をSharon氏に話した。Sharon氏はそれを反ユダヤ主義的なデタラメだと批判した。
- Robert Guffey氏は状況を不快にさせ、Sharon氏とともにその場を去った。彼はSharon氏に、その男は政府のエージェントだと話したが、彼女はRobert Guffey氏が「狂った人々とつきあいすぎている」と述べた。その男の手はdock workerとしては考えられないほど柔らかかった。
- 『Camellia』出版後も、Robert Guffey氏の自宅周辺には常に誰かが車の中に座っており、数日ごとに人物と車両が変わった。
- ゴミを捨てに行った際、車にいた男がRobert Guffey氏が捨てたゴミ袋から紙くずを取り出して調べていた。
- 19歳か20歳くらいの若い男たちが、彼の窓の真向かいのバンに常にいた。Robert Guffey氏が娘と歩いている際、そのうちの一人が娘の前で木に向かって放尿した。30分後に戻っても同じことをしていた。
- ある時、二人の若い男がバンを離れてスケートボードを持って出かけたので、Robert Guffey氏はバンにメモを残した。メモはランダムな文字と数字、そして「the management」とだけ書かれたものだった。
- 男たちが戻ってきてメモを見た際、一人がもう一人に向かって「誰に話したんだ？」と怒鳴り、スケートボードで相手を殴り始めた。彼らは殴り合いになり、その後一人がバンの下で何かを探したが見つからず、二人とも奇妙な表情で何か（空から現れるヴァルキリーや空飛ぶサル）を待っているかのような様子を見せた後、メモを持って車で立ち去り、二度と見なかった。
- Robert Guffey氏は、Damien氏や他の人々が経験したほどではないが、自身も「妨害的な出来事」を経験していると述べている。
- 2008年頃、Robert Guffey氏がLong Beachに住んでいた際、彼のアパートの共有ガレージが荒らされた。隣人の高価な電子機器は盗まれたが、Robert Guffey氏の自転車は盗まれなかった。Robert Guffey氏は、Damien氏に「保管場所にあるあなたの書き物を見つけた」というメールを送った直後の出来事であり、犯人がオフサイトの保管場所ではなくこのガレージを間違えたのではないかと考えた。
- 『Camellia』の原稿が完成し、まだ出版社に送る前に、Robert Guffey氏はターゲットにされている知人のエンターテイメント弁護士（Melanie氏）に原稿を読んでもらった。彼女はLabor Dayの週末にサンタモニカのビーチ近くのレストランで原稿を読み、その後車に戻って後部座席に原稿とコメントを書き込んだジャーナルを置いた。彼女が犬とビーチを散歩して30分後に戻ると、原稿とジャーナルがなくなっていたが、車が破られた形跡はなかった。彼女がレストランに戻って確認したが、置き忘れではなかった。
- Seattleでは、Damien氏の元ガールフレンドMelanie氏（元ヘロイン中毒者、元ストリッパー）に会う予定だった。Robert Guffey氏は、この本の執筆中にMelanie氏が理解してくれるだろうと考えながら書いていた。
- しかし、Melanie氏は本が出版される前に亡くなった。Robert Guffey氏が彼女の母親に連絡したところ、母親は詳しい状況を話したがらなかったため、Robert Guffey氏は自殺か薬物の過剰摂取ではないかと疑っている。
- Robert Guffey氏は「The opposite of foolproof」という小説を執筆したが、まだ出版されていない。これは「Camellia」のシアトルの章のような、クレイジーでゴンゾーのようなトーンの小説であり、Damien氏に起こった政治的な含みを持つ出来事には意図的に触れていない。
- Robert Guffey氏は、自身の体験した「見えない泡」のような現象について語った。それは「クークー」というような電子的な音の後に現れ、約19歳か20歳くらいの大きな鳥くらいのサイズで、Robert Guffey氏とショップの間を直線的に移動し、歪み場のように見え、最終的に木の後ろに消えた。それはBruce McAbeeの妻が森で見たエンティティの描写と類似していた。
- Robert Guffey氏は、他の著書「Until last dog dies」や「Spies and saucers」などはAmazonで入手可能だが、『Cameleo』はOR BOOKSからのみ購入可能だと述べた。また、自身のブログはcryptoscatology.comであると述べた。
話者の主観や想像:
- （ゴミ漁りの男について）「何を意図していたのか分からない」
- （若者たちの殴り合いについて）「あれをどう説明できるのか分からない。もし彼らがホームレスで、私の向かいに偶然駐車しただけなら、なぜメモを見て殴り合いになったのか全く分からない」
- （自身の体験について）「Damien氏や他の人々ほどgang stalkされているわけではないが、妨害的な出来事はある」
- （友人の考えについて）「gang stalkされていることに気づかず、単に世界の住人がアホだと思っている人もたくさんいる」という友人の考えは「あり得る」。
- （ガレージの荒らしについて）「なぜガレージに押し入って高価な電子機器をそのままにして、何も盗まなかったのか不思議だ」
- （原稿消失について）「なぜそこまでする必要があったのか分からない。私のコンピューターを読めばよかったのに」「何らかの脅迫行為だったのか、あるいは彼女自身に向けられたものだったのかは分からない」
- （ユーモアについて）「このような奇妙でトラウマ的なことが起こった場合、それに対処する唯一の方法はユーモアのセンスを持つことだ」「Camelliaを書きながら、その暗いユーモアを理解してくれるのはMelanie氏だけだと思って書いていた」
- （Invisible bubbleについて）「それは技術的なものだったのか、それとも新しい種類のドローンだったのか」「音がその泡から出ていたかは分からない」
- （Curt Siadomakについて）「彼が彼らのために何をしていたのか、なぜ彼が働いていたのか、不思議に思った」

3. UFO/パラノーマル現象、テクノロジー、政府/軍との関連性に関する考察

インタビューでは、Damien氏や他の人々の体験が、UFOやパラノーマル現象、そして政府や軍の技術や活動とどのように関連するのかについて、Robert Guffey氏の見解や推測が多く語られています。

話者が事実と主張する事柄:
- 2004年当時、ドローンはまだ一般的ではなかったが、最近ではSeal Beachなどで小さなドローンを見るのは普通になっている。Damien氏が見た小さな円盤のような物体は、当時ドローンとは呼ばれていなかった。
- Richard Schoengerd氏は、Project Camelliaが光学迷彩技術の研究開発であり、それがNavyとSAICに関連していると述べた。
- Richard Schoengerd氏は、映画「Predator」に出てくる光学迷彩の描写が非常に正確であり、コンサルタントが非常に優秀だったと述べた。彼は個人的な経験からそれを知っていた。
- Bruce McAbeeの妻が森で見たピクセル化された存在は、光学迷彩のように見え、その直前に静寂（Oz effect）が訪れた。これはDamien氏も経験したノイズキャンセリング技術と類似している。
- Richard Schoengerd氏は、Nexus誌のインタビューで、Project Camelliaを始めるインスピレーションの一つがUFOへの関心であり、特にUFOが持つ「クローキング装置」（cloaking device）に注目したと述べた。
- Richard Schoengerd氏は1950年代からRosha CrucianとFreemasonであり、軍にいたGuamでRosha Crucianに加入した。Rosha Crucianの中には、自分自身を不可視にできる「高次のマスター」がいると主張する者がいた。
- Richard Schoengerd氏は、UFOのクローキング技術と、Rosha Crucianが主張する不可視化能力を結びつけ、「現在の技術でどうすればそれが可能か」と考え始めた。Project Camelliaは、UFOが示すものの「カーゴカルト版」（cargo cult version）と見なすこともできる。
- Jenny Randall'sは、静寂と奇妙な感覚が何か高ストレンジネスなことが起こる前に現れる現象を「Oz effect」と名付けた。
- 政府は「Men in Black」の伝承に非常に精通しており、それを利用している。
- 1997年にDave Emeryの講演に行った際、駐車場に黒服を着た男たちが光沢のある黒いCadillacの周りにいて、ナンバープレートを撮影していた。彼らはまるでコスチュームを着ているかのようだった。これはJohn Keelの1960年代の本から出てきたかのようだった。彼らの行動は意図的に威圧的だった。
- Richard Hoaglandのプレゼンテーション（1997年9月11日）でも、黒服の男が現れ、講演者に奇妙な質問をしたり、威圧的な態度をとったりした。
- Jacques Valleeは「Messengers of deception」で、牛の切断の一部が政府の実験による可能性に言及している。CIAはフィリピンで、吸血鬼を信じる現地の迷信を利用し、人を殺害して吸血鬼の仕業に見せかけた作戦を行ったことがある。
- 国防総省には「Office of the Occult」という部署があり、その目的はオカルト的なものを研究し、必要に応じて利用することだと述べた。
- Richard Schoengerd、Robert Guffey氏、Damien氏は、夜間視力ゴーグルが不可視技術を着ている人物を見るために使えるかもしれない、という結論に至った。これは純粋な推測だったが、Richard Schoengerd氏も妥当な結論だと同意した。
- Christopher Bledsoeの息子は森で二体の不可視の存在を見たが、彼らは奇妙なゴーグルをかけ、目は赤く光っていた。これはUFOロジーにおける赤い目のモンスターの報告と関連がある。
- Skinwalker Ranchに招かれたリモートビューアーは、海軍の船の上にゴーグルをかけた人々を見た。彼らはそれが牧場で起こっている現象と関連があると考えたが、説明できなかった。Robert Guffey氏は、これはその場所が元々幽霊が出ると評判だったため、実験場所として選ばれた可能性を示唆していると考えた。
- Robert Guffey氏はUFO MagazineにRichard Schoengerd氏のインタビューを掲載し、読者に自身の体験を技術の結果ではないかと再考させるきっかけにしたいと考えた。
- Robert Guffey氏は、フィクション（「Spies and saucers」）を通じて、宇宙人誘拐現象の神話全体が政府の作戦で人々を騙すために創作され、現実の作戦で利用された可能性について語った。ある脚本家が共産主義者ブラックリストの影響で仕事がない中、政府と思われる組織に雇われ、宇宙人誘拐の物語の要素を脚本に盛り込むよう指示され、自分が作り出したフィクションが現実の作戦に使われていることに罪悪感を感じる、というストーリーを描いた。
- 宇宙人誘拐のシナリオは、古い妖精の誘拐の物語と関連がある。Jacques Valleeの「Passport to Magonia」は、妖精の伝説と現代の誘拐の歴史的な類似性を分析している。Washington Irvingの「Rip Van Winkle」も、小人に連れ去られ、液体を飲まされ、時間の喪失を経験する物語であり、これは現代の誘拐体験と類似している。
- Military abduction (MILAB) という現象があり、宇宙人誘拐の後に軍が再び拉致し、宇宙船の技術などについて尋問することがある。Melinda Leslie氏もこのような体験（宇宙人誘拐の後に軍による再拉致）をしており、MILABの方が宇宙人によるものよりはるかにトラウマ的だったと述べている。Betty and Barney HillもMILABの経験があったと述べている。
- Albert K Benderの「Flying saucers and the three men」（1962年）は、オカルト、黒魔術、パラノーマル、UFOを融合させた内容であり、発表当時は奇妙な本と見なされたが、今日では非常に先見の明があるように見える。彼のMen in Blackとの遭遇は、魔法的な儀式によって生み出されたとも言われている。
- Robert Guffey氏が見た「見えない泡」は、Bruce McAbeeの妻が森で見たエンティティの描写と類似していた。
- Christopher Bledsoeの息子が見た不可視の存在は、目がデジタルに見えたと述べた。Flatwoods monsterのような存在も、ロボットであり宇宙人であり、テクノロジーと生物の奇妙なハイブリッドのように見える。
- Curt Siadomak（「Earth versus the flying saucers」の脚本家）は、自身の著書「Donovan's brain」出版後にOSSに接近され、WWII中およびその後数年間彼らのために働いたと主張している。彼の映画には、遠隔操作される殺人者（Donovan's brain）や、蘇らせた死体をマインドコントロールされた暗殺者として使う物語（Creature with the Atom Brain）などが登場し、Jose Delgado（CIAに採用されたマインドコントロール技術の先駆者）への言及もある。Jose DelgadoはRobert Guffey氏がDamien氏の体験を調査していた時期にSan Diegoに住み、2011年に亡くなった。
話者の主観や想像:
- （ダム氏の体験と技術について）「その事例では文脈から判断して技術、何らかのノイズキャンセリング技術だったと推測できる」「しかし、技術なのかそれとも何か別のものなのかという他のケースもある」「どちらも同時に起こっている、つまり重複がある」。
- 「政府が本当にパラノーマルなものをどの程度模倣しているのか？」「政府はこれらの神話、伝承、実際に起こっている真のパラノーマル現象を非常によく認識しており、それを彼らの利点として利用していると思う」。
- （Men in Blackについて）「超常的なMen in Black現象だと主張しているわけではない」「彼らは明らかにこの服装をしたい人間だったが、彼らは明らかに伝承を知っており、何らかの形で威圧的であることを意図していた」。
- （政府による神話/伝承の利用について）「これは推測だが、私はこれを証明できない」。
- （Robert Guffey氏の小説「Spies and saucers」について）「これは、私がこれがまさにこのように起こったと思う何かについて語るためにフィクションを使用する例だ。だが、それがその通りであると証明する方法はない」。
- （宇宙人 abductionについて）「すべてのUFO体験がこの技術の結果であるとは言わない」「しかし、二つのMen in Blackの話で述べたように、彼らは神話、伝承、真のパラノーマル現象に非常に精通しており、それを彼らの利点として利用していると思う」。
- （Robert Guffey氏の個人的な感情）「少なくとも現時点での私の個人的な感情は、古典的な意味での宇宙人ではなく、私たちを変革しようとしている何かと dealしているということだ」。
- （Christopher Bledsoe氏の回復について）「彼がクローン病から回復したことは、軍によるものではないという考えを補強する」。
- （文学と伝承について）「作家はこれらの話を聞くが、それが現実であることを証明できない。だからフィクションを作り、これらのフィクションを通じて私たちに伝わってくる」。
- （Ultra terrestrial theoryについて）「それが最も妥当な説明に思える」。
- （Betty and Barney Hillについて）「なぜ宇宙人がそれを着ているのか？」「彼らについて多くの疑問がある」。
- （見えない泡について）「それはドローンに似ているように聞こえる」。
- （テクノロジーと生命体の境界について）「彼らには何か、彼らは生きているように見えると同時に、まるで創造された電子的な存在のようにも見えるという奇妙な要素がある」。

この文字起こしは、Robert Guffey氏が体験した不可解な出来事や、友人Damien氏の主張する壮絶な体験、そして彼らがその背後にあると疑う政府や軍の秘密裏の活動、さらにはUFOやパラノーマル現象との関連性について語るものです。Robert Guffey氏は自身の調査や他の体験者との出会いを交えながら、これらの出来事が現実と非現実、技術と超常現象の境界を曖昧にするものであると示唆しており、文学やポップカルチャーとの関連性も指摘しています。話者は、これらの出来事の多くを実際に起こったこととして語っていますが、一部には自身の推測や可能性に関する見解も含まれています。

Me:

話者の語った主な出来事を時系列で整理して。

提供されたソースに基づいて、話者のRobert Guffey氏が語った主な出来事を時系列に沿って以下に整理します。

2003-2004年頃：
- Robert氏の友人であるDamien氏にハラスメントが始まり、サンディエゴで奇妙な体験をします。Damien氏は急速に体調が悪化し、「強制収容所の犠牲者」のように見えたと表現されています。
- Damien氏は、不可視技術が関わる現象（例えば夜間視ゴーグルでしか見えない人物）や、小さな円形の物体に追跡される体験をしました。当時はまだドローンが一般的ではなかった時代です。
2004年初頭：
- Damien氏はサンディエゴを離れ、バンで旅に出ます。
- 移動中、テキサスでSoupy Sales氏の息子と遭遇し、彼からリハビリを勧められます。
- ミネソタの休憩所の洗面所で、見知らぬ男に「物を返せばすべて終わる」と懇願されます。その直後、別の男が現れて最初の男を引きずり出し、これが「彼らが彼を追跡している」と認めた唯一の他の機会だったとRobert氏は語っています。
- Damien氏のバンがミネソタで故障し、親切な男たちに助けられます。Damien氏は彼らに自分の体験を話しますが、彼らは懐疑的です。
- 男たちはRobert氏に電話し、Damien氏の話の真偽を尋ねます。Robert氏が真実だと話している最中、男たちは家の外に小さな飛行装置がホバリングしているのを目撃し、ひどく動揺します。
- Robert氏の説得により、男たちはDamien氏にガソリンを補給して旅を続けさせます。男たちは当初、Damien氏が悪魔に取り憑かれていると考え、自家製のエクソシズムを行おうとしていたとのことです。
- Damien氏はウィノナ、カンザスに到着し、しばらくハラスメントは収まります。
Richard Schoengerdのインタビュー前（時期は不明、Damien氏の旅の後と思われる）：
- Robert氏自身も奇妙な出来事を体験し、被害妄想になりかけたと語っています。
- Damien氏がRobert氏のアパートに滞在した後、「気をつけて」と言い残して去ります。
- 翌日、Robert氏の元学生である友人が訪ねてきます。彼女とRobert氏が待ち合わせ場所にいると、バスで彼女と会ったという見知らぬ男が現れ、彼らを高級レストランでのランチに誘います。
- レストランで友人が席を離れた隙に、男はRobert氏に陰謀論や挑発的な政治的見解について質問します。Robert氏は彼が政府の工作員ではないかと疑い、警戒します。男の言動は、彼が「Behold the Pale Horse」などの陰謀論関連の資料を急に渡されたかのようだったとRobert氏は感じています。
- Robert氏は状況を不快にし、食べ物や飲み物に触れませんでした。最終的に友人とRobert氏はその場を離れます。友人にはRobert氏が敵対的すぎると言われますが、Robert氏は男が工作員だと確信しています。
Camellia出版後すぐ：
- ミネソタの高名な弁護士が、Robert氏のラジオインタビューを聞いて自身の体験（ガンストーキング）がRobert氏の描写と一致することを知り、Robert氏を訪ねてきます。
- この弁護士は、軍または警察に対する訴訟で勝訴した後にハラスメントが始まったことを示唆します。彼はカリフォルニアに引っ越してもハラスメントが止まらなかったと語ります。
- 彼は、かつて体験した「奇妙な輪郭の人物」の目撃談が、Damien氏が見たものと非常に似ていると述べます。Robert氏は、ターゲットは薬物中毒者や逸脱者だけでなく、誰でもなり得ると指摘しています。
時期不明（Camellia出版後以降）：
- Robert氏のアパートの外に、同じ人物が数日おきに交代しながら車で常駐するようになります。
- Robert氏がゴミを捨てに行くと、常駐者がゴミ袋の中の紙くずを漁っているのを目撃します。
- アパートの向かいに駐車しているバンに常駐する若い男たちの一人が、Robert氏と娘の前でペニスを出して放尿する奇妙な行動を目撃します。
- Robert氏が彼らのバンのワイパーに意味不明な文字のメモを残すと、男たちは戻ってきてメモを見て、互いに激しく殴り合いを始めます。彼らはバンを調べ、何かが出現するかのような奇妙な表情を見せた後、その場を立ち去り、二度と現れませんでした。Robert氏はこの行動の理由が全く分からないと語っています。
Damien氏がRobert氏にRichard Schoengerdについて教える：
- Damien氏は、Richard Schoengerd氏という人物について知り、Robert氏に伝えます。
Robert Guffey氏がRichard Schoengerd氏をインタビューする：
- Robert氏はRichard氏に「Camelliaプロジェクト」について広範なインタビューを行います。
- Richard氏は、SAICや海軍との関連、不可視技術（光学迷彩）の開発について説明し、Damien氏の証言を「不気味なほど」裏付けます。
- Richard氏は、彼のプロジェクトのインスピレーションの一部が、UFOに見られるクローキング技術や、不可視化できると主張するローゼンクロイツ団員やフリーメイソンへの関心だったと語っています。
Richard氏のインタビュー後：
- Damien氏は、自分が狂っているわけではなく、実際にこれらの現象が起きていることを知りますが、かえってそれが彼をさらに精神的に追い詰める結果となります。Robert氏は、治療法がある狂気の方が、現実の解決不可能な問題よりも対処しやすいと指摘しています。
- Robert氏はDamien氏と約1年間連絡を絶ちます。
時期不明（Robert氏が連絡を絶った後）：
- Damien氏はサンフランシスコに移り住みます。そこで、大規模な抗議デモがあるような日に外に出ると、ハラスメントが再び激しくなるというパターンに気づきます。他のターゲットも同様の「静けさと再開」の波を経験していると述べられています。
2008年頃：
- Robert氏は再びDamien氏と連絡を取ります。Robert氏はロングビーチのアパートに住んでおり、オフサイトの貸倉庫と共有ガレージを持っていました。
- Robert氏が貸倉庫でDamien氏の原稿を見つけ、メールでその旨を伝えます。
- その週末、Robert氏が深夜に執筆中に、アパートの共有ガレージ付近で物音が聞こえ、人が逃げるのを目撃します。
- 翌朝、ガレージが荒らされているのが見つかります。高価な電子機器が盗まれていますが、Robert氏の物、特にDamien氏の原稿が入っていると誤解された可能性のある箱は荒らされたものの盗まれていませんでした。Robert氏は、Damien氏の原稿を見つけたというメールとこのガレージ荒らしが関連しているのではないかと推測しています。
Camellia執筆中：
- Robert氏は、自身もターゲットにされており、幼少期からマインドコントロールプログラムに関与させられたというエンターテイメント弁護士の友人（Melanie）に、Camelliaの原稿を読んでもらいます。
- 友人がロサンゼルスのレストランで原稿とジャーナルを読んだ後、車内に置いたままビーチへ行きます。戻ると、車が壊された形跡がないにもかかわらず、原稿とジャーナルがなくなっていました。Robert氏はこれが脅迫行為か、友人への嫌がらせだったのではないかと推測しています。
- Camellia出版前に友人のMelanie氏は亡くなりました。Robert氏は彼女が本を見る前に亡くなったことを知り、残念に思っています。
議論の中で触れられたその他の関連する出来事・考察：
- 夜間視ゴーグルが不可視技術を打ち破る可能性について推測されています。これは、クリストファー・ブレッドソー氏の体験（不可視存在の光る目）や、スキンウォーカー牧場でのリモートビューイング（ゴーグルをつけた海軍関係者）との類似点が指摘されています。
- ホストであるSoraya氏自身の体験として、電子音の後に透明で歪んだ「バブル」のような物体を目撃した話が語られます。これはブルース・マカビー氏の妻の体験に似ているとRobert氏は指摘し、これが技術的なドローンだった可能性にも言及しています。
- UFO現象と政府技術、民間伝承の模倣（メン・イン・ブラック、CIAの作戦など）の関連性が議論されます。ベティ・バーニー・ヒル事件なども、軍事誘拐（Milabs）の可能性が指摘されています。また、Melinda Leslie氏の体験として、エイリアン誘拐の直後に軍に再誘拐され尋問されるケースが語られています。
- フィクション（Washington Irving、Curt Siodmakの作品）が現実の現象を反映したり、あるいは政府によって神話創造のために利用されたりする可能性についても触れられています。

これらの出来事は、Damien氏が経験したハラスメントを中心に、Robert氏自身の体験や他のターゲットの事例、そしてそれらが政府の関与や不可視技術、さらには既存の超常現象の民間伝承とどのように重なり合うのかというRobert氏の考察を交えながら語られています。

timeline と登場人物

以下は、提供された情報源に基づいたタイムラインと登場人物リストです。

タイムライン

1950年代: リチャード・シェーンガードがロザクルチアンに加入し、フリーメイソンとなる。彼はグアムでの軍務中にロザクルチアンのイニシエーションを受けた。
1960年代後半: リチャード・シェーンガードがUFOへの関心を抱き始め、その技術、特にクローキング装置に着目する。
1962年: アルバート・K・ベンダーの著書『空飛ぶ円盤と三人の男』が出版され、初期のメン・イン・ブラック現象について論じられる。
1990年代: リチャード・シェーンガードがプロジェト・カメリア（カメレオン）を始める。
1997年:政治研究家デイブ・エメリーがアルタデナで講演を行う。講演会場の駐車場で、話し手と友人は黒服の男たちが車を写真撮影しているのを目撃する。
9月11日、リチャード・ホーグランドがパサデナのエバーグリーン・ホテルでプレゼンテーションを行う。彼はメン・イン・ブラックのような男から怪しげな質問を受けたと述べる。
2000年: クリストファー・シアドマクの自伝が出版され、彼がOSSのために働き、超常現象や軍事技術に関するフィクションを執筆していたことを主張する。
2001年/2002年頃: ナレーター（教授）がエンターテイメント弁護士と出会う。彼女は幼い頃から標的にされており、父親によってマインドコントロール・プログラムに関与させられたと主張する。
2003年/2004年初頭: ダミアンの体調が悪化し始める（血尿、体重減少など）。
2004年初頭: ダミアンはサンディエゴからバンで旅に出る。
- 道中、彼は空中に浮かぶ小さな円形の物体に追跡されているとナレーターに電話で伝える。
- テキサス州で、彼はスーピー・セールスの息子と出会い、彼の経験について話すが、リハビリ施設に行くよう勧められる。
- ミネソタ州の休憩所で、彼は見知らぬ男から「もしそれを返してくれれば、すべてがなくなるだろう」と言われる。直後に別の男が最初の男を連れ出す。
- バンの故障後、南部の男たちに助けられ、ナレーターが彼らの家に電話をかける。南部の男たちはダミアンの奇妙な話を聞き、話している間に小さな飛行物体が彼らの家の上にホバリングしているのを目撃する。
- この出来事のすぐ後: ダミアンは事業を辞め、荷物をまとめて飛行機で去る。彼はサンタモニカのビーチで生活を始めるが、嫌がらせは止まらない。
- この出来事のすぐ後（弁護士への嫌がらせ開始）: ナレーターが話を聞いた弁護士は、警察署に対する嫌がらせ訴訟でアフリカ系アメリカ人のイスラム教徒の女性を成功裏に弁護した後、奇妙な出来事を経験し始める。彼は自宅の地下室でコカインパーティー中に奇妙な人影を見たことを思い出す。
時期不明（パームデザートの女優）: パームデザートに住む女優が、ダミアンと同様の嫌がらせと監視を経験する。彼女は砂漠の道路で追跡され、「私から離れて！怖い！」と叫ぶ。
時期不明（南カリフォルニアの女性）: 南カリフォルニアに住む別の女性が監視による嫌がらせを経験する。彼女はなぜ始まったか分からないが、奇妙な人影を見たり、寝ている間に足に触られたりする。
ダミアンの事件後まもなく: ダミアンはリチャード・シェーンガードについて知り、ナレーターに知らせる。彼らはシェーンガードと広範なインタビューを行い、シェーンガードはダミアンの話の多くを裏付ける。シェーンガードはSAICと海軍にも言及する。
時期不明（ダミアンがシアトルに移動）: ナレーターがシアトルに引っ越した後、ダミアンも彼に合流することを決める。
- ナレーターの自宅での出来事:ゴミ袋を外のゴミ箱に捨てた後、男がゴミ箱を漁っているのを目撃する。
- 近くに停まっているバンの中にいる大学生くらいの若い男たちから嫌がらせを受ける。彼らは娘の前で排尿したりする。
- ナレーターがバンに紙を挟んだ後、男たちが互いに暴力を振るい合う。
時期不明（ナレーターのガレージへの侵入）: ナレーターのガレージが侵入される。高価な電子機器はそのままだったが、本や原稿が入った箱が持ち去られる。彼はこれがダミアンに送ったメール（「あなたの荷物を倉庫に保管している」）に関連しているのではないかと考える。
時期不明（ナレーターの友人の車のボンネットに原稿が置かれる）: ナレーターの友人が車に戻ると、閉めたはずの車のボンネットが開いており、ナレーターが執筆中の本の原稿が置かれているのを発見する。
時期不明（ナレーターの友人シャロンとの遭遇）: ナレーターは友人のシャロンを迎えに行く際、バスで会ったと主張する男に遭遇する。その男は彼らを高級レストランに誘い、陰謀論（ウィリアム・クーパーの『蒼ざめた馬を見よ』や『シオン賢者の議定書』）について奇妙な質問をする。ナレーターは敵意を示し、彼らが食事や水に何かを混入させたのではないかと疑う。最終的にシャロンは不快感を感じて立ち去る。
時期不明（ナレーターの家のガレージ侵入）: ナレーターのガレージが侵入され、高価なものは盗まれていないにもかかわらず、本や原稿が入った箱が持ち去られる。
時期不明（ナイトビジョンゴーグルとスキナー・ランチ）: ナレーターは、スキナー・ランチでの超常現象を調査していたリモートビューアーが、海軍の船とゴーグルを着用した人々を見たというジョージ・ナップの話を聞く。これはダミアンの事件とナイトビジョンゴーグルが関連している可能性を示唆する。
時期不明（電話の異常）: ダミアンは電話中にランダムな数字の羅列を聞くなどの異常を経験する。これはジョン・キールが『モスマンの予言』で言及した現象と同様である。
時期不明（クリストファー・ブレッドソーの息子による目撃）: クリストファー・ブレッドソーの息子が森の中で2体の透明な存在を目撃する。彼らはゴーグルのようなものを着用しており、目がデジタルに見えたという。
時期不明（ナレーターの「クックー」の音と泡の経験）: ナレーターは自宅のコンピュータ修理店の近くで電子的な「クックー」という音を聞き、その後、目に見えない泡が地面を移動しているのを目撃する。
2011年: マインドコントロール技術の専門家であるホセ・デルガドがサンディエゴで死去する。

登場人物

ダミアン (Damien): 主要な対象者。病状が悪化し、空中に浮かぶ小さな物体や追跡者から嫌がらせを受ける。過去には薬物使用の経験がある。記憶があやふやなことがある。
ナレーター (Professor Guffey?): 教授であり、ダミアンの友人であり、この出来事の語り手。ダミアンの話を検証し、自身の奇妙な経験もする。書籍『カメリア』の著者。
リチャード・シェーンガード (Richard Schoengerd): プロジェト・カメリアを開発した人物。ダミアンの経験の多くを裏付ける。UFOと秘密結社（ロザクルチアン、フリーメイソン）に興味を持つ。
スーピー・セールスの息子 (Soupy Sales' son): テキサスでダミアンと出会うミュージシャン。かつてデヴィッド・ボウイのバンド、ティン・マシーンに参加していた。薬物使用の経験があり、ダミアンにリハビリ施設に行くよう勧める。
休憩所の男 (Stranger in restroom): ミネソタ州の休憩所でダミアンに近づき、「それを返してくれれば、すべてがなくなる」と懇願する人物。追跡グループの一員であることが示唆される。
休憩所の二番目の男 (Second guy in restroom): 最初の男がダミアンに話しかけた後、最初の男を連れ出す人物。追跡グループの一員である可能性が高い。
南部の男たち (Good old boys): バンが故障したダミアンを助けた南部訛りの男たち。当初はダミアンの話を懐疑的に聞くが、話している間に奇妙な飛行物体を目撃し、信じるようになる。一人の名前は「ジェブ (Jeb)」かもしれない。
弁護士 (Attorney): 警察を訴えたアフリカ系アメリカ人イスラム教徒の女性を弁護した後、嫌がらせを受けるようになった人物。裕福で、自宅の地下室でコカインパーティーを開いていた。
パームデザートの女優 (Actress in Palm Desert): ダミアンと同様の監視と嫌がらせを経験した女性。
南カリフォルニアの女性 (Woman in Southern California): ランダムに監視と嫌がらせを経験した女性。奇妙な人影を見たり、触られたりする。
ナレーターの娘 (Narrator's daughter): ナレーターの9歳の娘。父親と一緒にいる時に、近くのバンにいた男が排尿するのを目撃する。
ナレーターの妻 (Narrator's wife): ナレーターの妻。近くのバンにいた男たちにいたずらするようナレーターに提案し、男たちが互いに暴力を振るうのを目撃する。
近くのバンにいた若い男たち (Young men in the van): ナレーターの自宅近くのバンにいた19歳か20歳くらいの二人組。ナレーターに嫌がらせをし、ナレーターのいたずらの後で互いに殴り合う。
エンターテイメント弁護士 (Entertainment lawyer): ナレーターの友人で、幼い頃から標的にされていると主張する女性。父親によってマインドコントロール・プログラムに関与させられたと主張する。ワーナー・ブラザーズで働いていた。
メラニー (Melanie): ダミアンの元ガールフレンド。元ヘロイン中毒者で元ストリッパー。ダミアンの心を理解していた唯一の人物であり、ナレーターは彼女を念頭に置いて本の原稿を書いていた。
シャロン (Sharon): ナレーターの友人で、イスラエル出身のユダヤ人。ナレーターとバスで出会った男との不快な昼食に巻き込まれる。
デイブ・エメリー (Dave Emery): 政治研究家でラジオ番組の司会者。1997年にナレーターが講演を聞きに行く。メイ・ブラッセルの影響を受けている。
メイ・ブラッセル (Mae Brussel): 陰謀論の「女王」。デイブ・エメリーに影響を与えた人物。
リチャード・ホーグランド (Richard Hoagland): 1997年にパサデナでプレゼンテーションを行った人物。プレゼンテーション中にメン・イン・ブラックのような男から嫌がらせを受けた。
ジャック・ヴァレー (Jacques Vallee): 超常現象研究家。彼の著書『マゴニアへのパスポート』は、妖精伝説と現代の拉致現象の類似性を分析している。
クリストファー・ブレッドソー (Christopher Bledsoe): 彼の息子が森の中で2体の透明な存在（ゴーグルを着用し、目がデジタルに見えた）を目撃した人物。
ジョージ・ナップ (George Knapp): ジャーナリスト。スキナー・ランチに関するリモートビューアーの報告（海軍の船とゴーグルを着用した人々を見た）について語る。
ワシントン・アーヴィング (Washington Irving): 最初期の偉大なアメリカの短編小説家。『リップ・ヴァン・ウィンクル』の著者。
アルバート・K・ベンダー (Albert K. Bender): 『空飛ぶ円盤と三人の男』の著者。メン・イン・ブラックと超常現象を結びつけた初期の人物。
カーティス・シアドマク (Curt Siodmak): SF作家・脚本家。『ドノヴァンの脳髄』や『地球対空飛ぶ円盤』、『原子脳を持つ怪物』などの著者。OSSのために働いていたと主張する。
WH・ドノヴァン (WH Donovan): OSS長官。シアドマクの著書『ドノヴァンの脳髄』のタイトルが彼を指していると誤解された可能性がある。
ホセ・デルガド (Jose Delgado): マインドコントロール技術の専門家。『精神の物理的制御』の著者。CIAに採用され、イェール大学で働いていた。子供を含む精神病患者を実験対象にした。事件当時サンディエゴに住んでいた。
ゲイリー・ローズ (Gary Rhodes): ナレーターが1940年代のベラ・ルゴシ映画に関するノンフィクション本を共著している人物。アイルランドのベルファスト大学の映画学部長。
ベラ・ルゴシ (Bela Lugosi): 俳優。彼の映画『吸血鬼の刻印』が、政府が民間人に吸血鬼の行為を模倣させる例として言及される。
ジェニー・ランドルズ (Jenny Randles): 超常現象研究家。「オズ効果」という言葉を作った人物。
ジョン・キール (John Keel): 超常現象研究家。『モスマンの予言』の著者。彼の作品で描かれる奇妙な電話や監視されている感覚がナレーターの経験と比較される。メン・イン・ブラックについても執筆している。
ドミニク・ウィルキンス (Dominic Wilkins): クリストファー・ブレッドソーの息子が目撃した透明な存在が着用していた「デジタルに見えた目/ゴーグル」について言及される際に名前が挙げられる。

※ナレーターの名前は、作中で「教授」と呼ばれていること、ウェブサイトが「cryptoskeletology.com」であることから、「Professor Guffey」またはそれに類する人物である可能性が高いですが、直接明記されていないため「ナレーター（教授）」と表記しました。

文字起こし

This episode of Where Did The Road Go is brought to you in part by our Patreons. If you want to become a Patron, go to wheredidtheroadgo.com. And now our show. Transmission start. Welcome to Where Did The Road Go? Join us as we wander off the path and explore lost history, consciousness, the paranormal, unexplained mysteries, alternative thought, and much more. We are present on the web at wheredidtheroadgo.com. (00:00:31) Now here is your host, Soraya. Welcome to Where Did The Road Go? And this second part of this Robert Guffey interview is pretty long, so I'm going to make this real short. There's an extra segment I'm going to be putting up for Patreons. And yeah, I guess that's really all I need to tell you right now. So enjoy the second part of my conversation with Robert Guffey about his book, Cameleo, right now. (00:00:59) All right, Robert, welcome back for part two of this conversation about your book, Cameleo. Thank you for having me on again. And there's, yeah, let's see if we can get through all this stuff here, because there's still a lot. You told the main part of the story in San Diego. And he was deteriorating pretty quickly at that point when he decided to try and leave. (00:01:23) Oh, yes. As I said, he was urinating blood, losing weight. I mean, he looked like a concentration camp victim at that point. Yeah. And so he took the van, and where'd he go from there? So he got into the van, he packed up his stuff. At that point, this is the beginning of 2004. And as I began to say earlier, at that time, no one was mentioning drones. (00:01:53) You know, there was a case recently where a drone was flying over like Dodger Stadium. Someone shot it out the sky. I was at the beach recently, Seal Beach, and a little drone, a little circular drone came flying over, you know, just, you know, you could probably have thrown a rock at it, you know. So these are things that are now common to us. (00:02:17) But in 2004, no one was talking about drones, except as sort of a theoretical thing. Damien calls me from the side of the road to tell him that there are these little circular objects flying in the sky following him. And I said, well, what do you mean? You mean like a flying saucer? And he was like, well, yeah, basically, just like a tiny flying saucer, like the size of a little smaller than a manhole cover. (00:02:47) And that it's just things like following the van everywhere. And so he drives from San Diego, he goes all the way into Texas. There's an amusing incident there where he ran into Soupy Sales' son, who you may not realize is a musician. He was in a band with David Bowie called Tin Machine, and he actually ran into Soupy Sales' son, who's had experiences with drugs himself. (00:03:14) And so Damien is trying to tell him about this entire experience. (00:03:19)

And Soupy Sales' son said, you need to go into rehab. That was his advice. So Damien gets into the van, he leaves Texas. He goes all the way into Minnesota. And at one point, he stops off at a restroom, and he goes in to wash up. And a guy comes in, he's never seen before, and is washing his hands at the sink next to him. (00:03:47) And the stranger turns to him and says, if you would just give the stuff back, all this could go away. And he wasn't saying it in a kind of threatening tone, Damien described it as more of a pleading tone, like, just please give the stuff back, because I don't want to follow you around anymore. That kind of a tone. That was the only other time where the curtain was pulled aside, other than when Lita Johnson said about the food fight, yes, that made us laugh. (00:04:17) This was the other time where someone actually broke down and actually admitted that they were following him. Immediately after saying that, a second guy comes into the bathroom, grabs the first guy by the collar, and kind of like drags him out, as if the second guy was angry at this other guy. That freaked out Damien, and he gets back into the van and drives some more. (00:04:41) And that's when the van broke down at one point on the side of the road, and these two kind of good old boys picked him up and offered to help him and take him back to their house. And so Damien tells them the entire story, everything I've just told you. And they're highly skeptical. They think he's just BS-ing them. And I get a phone call at like 10 o'clock at night, and this guy with a heavy Southern accent, I pick up the phone, and he's like, are you Professor Guffey? (00:05:16) And I go, yes. And he goes, you know a guy named Damien? And I'm thinking, what is this? What has happened now? And the guy explains to him that they found Damien's car. It was stalled on the side of the road. They pick him up. And your friend's telling us this crazy story. He's been followed around by little flying saucers and all this nonsense. (00:05:38) Is this true? And I said, yeah, it is true. And I went through the whole thing and told them this is what happened, and the night vision goggles, and et cetera. As I'm talking to him, I hear a second guy in the background yell out, Jeb, or whatever the hell his name was, come over here. And as I'm on the phone with them, they're describing that there's a little tiny flying device hovering outside their house. (00:06:02) Their minds get blown. And I managed to convince them to help Damien put gas in the van and so that he could continue his journey. And it was soon after that. They were going to give him like a homemade exorcism, weren't they? (00:06:19)

They thought that Damien was like infused with demons or something. And in fact, there was one point where they had like the protocols of the Elders of Zion on their bookshelf or Behold of Hell Horse or something like that. One of those books. I can't remember now which one it was. But he gets back in the van and soon after that, he ended up in Winona, Kansas, where they kind of left him alone for a while. (00:06:53) And I was actually kind of hoping that maybe it was it was it was all over because I generally thought that if he just left Pacific Beach, it would end. And that's a typical thing. In fact, soon after Camellia was published, a guy visited me in my office on campus. He was a lawyer, a high powered attorney in Minnesota, the same place where Damien got confronted in the bathroom. (00:07:20) And this this high powered attorney who owned his own law firm was doing very well for himself. He started getting gang stalked and he didn't know what was happening until he heard an interview with me. And he he said, I came to talk to you because you're the only person who's described what was happening to me. And they drew they drove him out of he gave up his business. (00:07:45) He just threw everything in his suitcase and he left and got on a plane and he was living somewhere on the beach in Santa Monica. And he thought that if he moved to California, the harassment would stop, but it didn't stop. And and so it's important to note that it isn't just junkies and outliers and, quote, degenerates, unquote, that they target, they can target anybody. (00:08:10) If there's anyone listening who's thinking, well, I'm not a drug addict, so I can just like settle back and not worry about it. The fact is, anyone can come into their purview if you do something to piss them off or it could be random. And in this case, I asked this this attorney, I said, what are you an attorney? Have you ever represented someone in the military or maybe represented a case against the military or against the police? (00:08:37) And he suddenly stopped. He said, oh, well, yeah, right before this happened, I represented an African-American Muslim woman who had sued the police department in a harassment lawsuit and that he had successfully he won that case for her. And I said, well, you know, maybe we could stop there. Maybe maybe that's because it was soon after that, that it started. He even told me that I mean, this guy had a lot of money and he said he would have these Coke swinger parties at his house in his basement. (00:09:09) He had this like party room in his basement and he'd have friends over. They do cocaine and and all kinds of other stuff. And he remembers seeing at the time this outline, this odd outline of a figure coming down the stairs. And and he said it almost like they were wearing some sort of uniform and he positioned himself behind this water heater in the basement and was watching everything that was going on. (00:09:41) And that and that this occurred soon after this lawsuit. (00:09:45)

And then soon after that, the harassment began. And he said, I never knew what that was. And I thought maybe I was just hallucinating it or something. And then I heard you talking about this. And when when you talked about Damien seeing the kind of weird aura outline, that was very similar to to what I had seen. And so and also I've been I've been contacted by people who this one woman who had been an actress and was living in Palm Desert and they were harassing, surveilling her just like Damien. And they were following her down this desert road, Palm Desert in the like Damien. (00:10:23) And they were following her down this desert road, Palm Desert in the middle of nowhere. And she pulls off and gets out of the car and hides behind this like outcropping. And the cars like whizzed by her as if they they've lost her. And she stays there for a long time because she doesn't want them to see her and get and get back on her tail. (00:10:41) And suddenly she feels like a presence, you know, like the hair standing up at the back of your neck kind of a phenomenon. And she suddenly feels as if someone is nearby her and she feels a hand grab her by the crotch. And she said she was so shocked by this that she didn't even she said she didn't even have time to be offended by the sexual assault. (00:11:05) It was just like, what the hell is happening? And she and she yelled out, like, get get, you know, get away from me. You know, you're frightening me or something like that. And that was another case. I got someone who lives here in Southern California who said that she would often see this kind of like weird outline walk by the the hallway. And she was she was experiencing surveillance harassment. (00:11:29) In this case, it seemed random. She didn't know why it started. And she was lying in bed with a friend and she felt a hand suddenly like caressing her thigh. And then she moved away. She got freaked out. And then the person like ran out of the room. And the way I've contextualized this is to draw an analogy from current headlines is imagine a cadre of covert Harvey Weinstein's given unlimited black budget to do whatever the hell they want with invisibility suits. (00:12:01) And you can kind of like imagine what would occur from that. So so soon after that, that that that Damien, he found out about Richard Schoengerd and and tipped me off to him. And then that's when we met Schoengerd and we had the extensive interview where Schoengerd pretty much backed up everything that Damien had said to an eerie degree to the extent of bringing up SAIC and bringing up the Navy and the Navy had come and talked to him 10 years earlier. (00:12:33) And after after the our encounter with Richard, I actually kind of thought, well, maybe this will make Damien. This will settle his mind a bit, he'll understand that he wasn't going crazy, you have to understand, I wasn't the only one questioning it. (00:12:53)

Damien was questioning himself. Is this actually maybe I am going crazy, you know, which is exactly the point of it. I mean, that's what they want. They want you to question your sanity. And and and so now now knowing and meeting Richard and realizing, no, I wasn't going crazy, actually was far more disturbing. It would have been easier, I think, on him if he could conclude that he was going crazy, because at least all you have to do is just take medication to cure that problem. (00:13:28) Right, right. This problem, you can't just take medication to make it go away. This is a major problem, you know. And so he kind of I felt like and I write about this in the book that I think he kind of spiraled down even further after that, it just it freaked him out so much. So so I actually lost contact with him for a year or so. (00:13:54) And then he he moved to San Francisco and he said that when he was in San Francisco, he he noticed that whenever there was some major protest in town, like an Occupy Wall Street protest, which happened frequently being in San Francisco, if he went outside on a day where there was a big protest going on, they'd be all over him again. In other words, everything would kind of kind of kind of slow down and go away and make you think, well, maybe they've given up. (00:14:23) And then suddenly, boom, they pull the rug out from under you and they're all over you again. And I've talked to other people who've described the same the same kind of up and down scenario where everything goes silent. You're kind of feeling like you're going to relax a bit and then, boom, they pull the rug out from under you again. And so, yeah, go on. (00:14:44) So when when all this stuff was happening to him, it was also making you a little bit paranoid, too, wasn't it? Yes, because there were things that happened which seemed beyond coincidence and beyond synchronicity. I mean, I almost did feel like John Keel describes in Mothman Prophecies where he's getting the weird phone calls and feelings that he's being watched. And I had described an incident that occurred where I was living in an apartment on Alamitos and First Street in Long Beach. (00:15:23) And Damian had come. This would have been just before the interview with Richard. And he came down, stayed with me in the apartment for a couple of days and then left. And I remember right before he left, he said to me, just be careful. Like if someone new enters your life or something, like be wary of them. And quite frankly, I thought he was being a little overly cautious. (00:15:49) And and he and he left. And then the next day, a friend of mine who had been she'd been a student of mine the very first semester I ever taught at CSU Long Beach, she had been in my class and we remained in touch. (00:16:02)

She had since moved to New York and was coming back to take some sort of test and to visit friends in Long Beach. And she calls me. She says, you want to get together and go to lunch? And I go, sure. And she says, I'm taking the bus down. I'll I'll get off on First and Alamitos and just meet me at the corner. (00:16:22) And so I go, OK, so I am waiting for her. She gets off the bus and there's a guy with her. And I was like, who's she had mentioned she was bringing a friend. I was like, who's this? And she goes, oh, I met him on the bus. He introduced me and he says he's a dock worker. And and he he invites us both to go to lunch with him. (00:16:45) And he invites us to a place called 555, which is kind of a high end restaurant, you know, just walking off the street. I mean, you kind of you would be definitely like a formal attire affair. But he says, oh, don't worry about it. My friend is the maitre d' and he can get a set up. Don't worry about it. And I'm remembering what Damien was saying. (00:17:08) And I'm thinking, don't be paranoid. Maybe it's just some guy on the bus and. And he must be just a friendly guy. And so he takes both of us to this restaurant and we're waiting in line to go inside. And my friend Sharon, she she walks away and says she has to make a phone call. She leaves me alone with this guy while we're waiting to go in. (00:17:31) Immediately the second she leaves, he turns to me and he goes, have you ever heard of a book by Milton William Cooper called Behold the Pale Horse? And I go, yeah, I've I've heard of that book. I've read that book. He goes, yeah, it's about conspiracies. What do you think about conspiracies? And I go, I don't know much about that. And then and then he goes, he goes, what do you think about what about President Bush? (00:18:01) I think he's doing a good job. I think I think someone needs to take him out. What do you think about that? And I go, I think President Bush is doing an excellent job. I voted for him twice. Yeah, I've just been avoiding anything to implicate me because it sounded like to me that he was trying to rope me into something that I didn't want to do. (00:18:26) And it was just I by the way, I thought it was weird that anyone in the conspiracy world, of course, knows Behold the Pale Horse and William Cooper. It's like asking a musician, have you ever heard of the Beatles? You know, it's just a weird question to ask. And then when he called the Milton William Cooper, which, in fact, is the name that is on the on the spine of the book is Milton William Cooper. (00:18:47) But no one calls him that. (00:18:48)

He'd be like a baseball fan calling Babe Ruth by his real name. Right. You know, Milton Cooper, who the hell is that? Oh, William Cooper. Yeah. Bill Cooper. Oh, yeah. And it was as if they had given him some sort of file the day before. These are the talking points. Mention Milton William Cooper and, you know, the Illuminati. And you'll be able to rope him in to saying something. (00:19:11) Then then Sharon comes back and we go to that. We sit down and he he keeps on. Now he's talking about the Illuminati. And are you into the Illuminati? And and Sharon is Jewish. She's she's from Israel. So she's like Illuminati. What do you mean? And he goes, well, you ever heard of a book called Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Milton Cooper says that if you take out the word Jew and replace it with the Illuminati, then then the whole book is true. (00:19:41) And Sharon's like, that sounds like some anti-Semitic BS to me. What are you talking about? And I'm not helping the situation because I keep acting like I don't know what he's talking about. And the whole thing was just surreal. And I'm becoming more and more hostile and not touching the food or the water because I'm thinking that he's put something in the food or the water. (00:20:01) And eventually I convinced I've made the situation so uncomfortable that Sharon just decides, let's just leave. So we leave. And like as we're on our way out, she turns to me. She's like, what was that all about? Like, why do you have to be so hostile to the guy? And I go, I go, can't you tell this guy? This guy's a government agent, you know. (00:20:25) And and by the by the way, he said he was a dock worker. When I shook his hands were as as soft as a baby's bottom. I mean, I don't know what kind of a dock worker he was, but apparently, you know, he didn't have to lift anything. Yeah. And then so she's like, what's the what's up with you? And I'm like, I go, listen, this is all about these night vision goggles. (00:20:47) And she's like, what are you talking about? She goes, you've been hanging around too many crazy people. And and I thought, you know, that that could be true. I mean, that is like a legitimate criticism. But nonetheless, that doesn't mean that all this isn't happening. You know, it's not mutually exclusive. Like I could be hanging around crazy people and all this could be happening at the same time. Right. (00:21:12) So and that's just like one example. I mean, that's that's one example I put in the book. There's been further things that have occurred since the book was published. And for example, outside the room where I'm currently sitting, talking to you, there is almost always someone outside in a car sitting there and it'll be the same person for about six or seven days. (00:21:37) Then they'll go away and a new person will come in a different vehicle and then they'll sit there for like seven days. (00:21:42)

And just to give you the most mundane example, first, I went outside with a bag of trash and I put it in the trash bin that's underneath my window when I came back up here. And then I realized, oh, I left one bag up here. So I grabbed the second bag and I go down. The guy was constantly in the car across the street is now digging into the trash can, into the bag that I just put in there. (00:22:05) And he's pulling out all these like crumpled up pieces of paper that are in the trash bag. He looks at me. Puts the crumpled up pieces of paper back in the bag, then just walks back to his car and sits there. And I just threw the second bag and I was like, OK, you know, whatever. Then not long after that, there was these two guys, two kids. (00:22:26) I say kids. I mean, like 19, 20, you know, college age who were just constantly in this van right across the street from my window. And I took my I was walking with my daughter, who's about nine years old at this point, down the alleyway. And one of these guys gets out and he just whips out his penis and starts taking a piss at the tree, like right next to me, like in front of my daughter. (00:22:55) And I'm thinking, wow, this is really weird, OK? Then I we leave. We come back about a half hour later. He's in front of the same tree doing the same thing. I don't know how much liquid this guy consumes, but I thought that was odd. Go upstairs. Usually there was two guys in the van and usually be one guy. The other guy would disappear. (00:23:20) Then the other guy would take his place. But in this particular occasion, there were both guys were at the van. At the same time, they both grabbed their skateboards and they left the vehicle unattended. And my wife said, you should go write some kind of nasty note on their window. And I go, well, that's not colorful enough. Let me think about it for a second. (00:23:37) So I go over to my computer and I just start typing random letters and numbers on the computer. Then at the bottom, I wrote the management, then I printed it out and I go across the street and I fold it and slip it into their windshield wiper. I come back. Now I'm looking through the blinds. About a few minutes later, they both come back with their skateboards. (00:24:00) The one guy sees the note and he pulls it out of the windshield wiper and he sees it. Immediately turns to the second guy and starts yelling at him, who have you been talking to? And he grabs a skateboard and starts beating the crap out of them, just like beating him in the face with a skateboard. And the second guy is like, I haven't told anyone anything. (00:24:22) And they start beating each other with their skateboards and their fists. (00:24:25)

And me and my wife are watching it through the blinds. And we both turn to each other and go, holy s like I didn't intend for this to happen. Right. It's like, oh, now I'm gang stalking them. Why? I didn't even intend to do that. You know, and after they start, after they've done beating each other up, the second guy gets on his hands and he gets on his hands and knees and crawls under the van as if he's looking for something under the van. (00:24:57) He doesn't find it, I guess. And then he gets out and they both look towards the right with this look on their faces, if any moment Valkyries or like a swarm of flying monkeys are going to descend from the sky and attack them, they just have this like weird look on their face, like something is about to appear. Then the guy takes the note and he like shoves into his pocket. (00:25:20) He's like, don't say anything about this. And they get in the car and they drive away and I've never seen him again. Wow. No, I don't. I can't explain that. I do. If there's just let's say there's two random kids who, let's say they're homeless and they're living in their van and they just so happen to pick the spot right across from my apartment building. Right. (00:25:41) And they find a note with random letters and numbers on it. It says the management, wouldn't you just think, huh, that's weird. And then throw it away. Yeah. Why? Why would they start beating each other up over that? I have no idea. So that's a bizarre story. So the things like that have, have occurred since all of this occurred. Sometimes I'll be doing one of these radio shows and they'll ask me, well, do you think you're being gangsta? And, and, and the fact is, you know, in terms of what Damien experienced or other people I've known have experienced, I would have to say no. And in the, in the sense that, uh, you know, I would have to say no. (00:26:20) And in the, in the sense that, uh, you know, I'm not urinating blood, you know, um, and you don't have like dozens and dozens of people obviously following you. Exactly. Right. Uh, um, I, however, I do have, uh, my friend, uh, has an interesting, uh, thought on this. He says, he thinks that there's a lot of people who are being gang stalked. They don't know it though. They just think they live in a world of a-holes, uh,They don't know it though. (00:26:46) They just think they live in a world of a-holes, uh, I thought, you know what, that's, that could be, you know, particularly if you've been chosen at random and you don't know why you've been chosen, you could just think, wow, who are all these a-holes getting in my way and just saying weird stuff. I, I, yeah, that could possibly be. So yes, no, not to the extent that, that,I, I, yeah, that could possibly be. (00:27:05) So yes, no, not to the extent that, that, that Damien with gang stalk, but I can only describe it as obstructive incidents like the ones I've just described. (00:27:12)

Wow. Um, do you also, there was one of the things you talked about in there with numbers on the phone and the phones acting weird. You already talked about trying to give him the password when the phones were cutting off. But doesn't, uh, Damien say at some point he keeps hearing numbers repeated on the phone? Oh yeah, yeah. He would hear a voice saying, uh,Oh yeah, yeah. (00:27:34) He would hear a voice saying, uh, random, uh, sequence of numbers, uh, which I have a footnote in there and, and I cite, uh, the Mothman prophecies by Johnny Hill, because he mentioned the same exact phenomenon, the same kind of a phone weirdness of people talking on the phone, like you and I are now. And then suddenly a third voice entering the conversation and just reading off random sequences of numbers. (00:27:57) And there's other people who say that they actually hear voices saying that, uh, in their head, you know, not on the, on the phone. Uh, and, um, uh, yeah. So that, that's something that he, he reported as well. And, and that, you know, that, that's, that's a long timeframe, you know, like for them to be interfering with the phones back then like that and do it still doing it today. But I guess it's something that, uh, still doing it today. (00:28:26) But I guess it's something that, uh, would freak somebody out. Oh yeah. Yeah. And, and as for the purpose of it, I, I have no idea. I, I, I really, I just, um, the, I, I, I just, it just occurred to me to, there was another incident that just occurred to me that you might be interested in hearing. Uh, it was, I had been out of contact with Damien for a long time. (00:28:51) So this would have been about 2008. Uh, and we've gotten in touch with each other again. And, uh, I was living in an apartment near a Cherry Park in Long Beach and I had a storage, uh, space apart from the apartment I lived in. And there was also a garage underneath. I was on the third floor and there was a garage that everyone in the apartment shared. I had some stuff down there. Uh, shared. (00:29:17) I had some stuff down there. Uh, but most of the stuff was in this offsite storage space. And I'd been going through there and I found a bunch of Damien's writing. Uh, and I sent him an email and I said, Hey, I, I found a bunch of your S, uh, in my, in my storage. Uh, should I send it to you? Uh, and, uh, he, he, he writes back, you know, yes, send it to me, send me the stuff. (00:29:44) It just so happened that that weekend, my wife and daughter left town and I was writing all day. It was on a Saturday and I wrote late into the night. And I remember around 2am, um, I went into my bedroom turned on the light and the light would shine into the alleyway. And when the light shined in the alleyway, I suddenly heard scurrying down below near the garage and like the garage door, like suddenly shutting and these people running off in the alley. (00:30:14) And I thought, well, you know, who knows it's probably just someone else in the apartment in, in the garage and didn't think much of it. Turned off the light, went to sleep. (00:30:23)

Next morning I woke up late, probably like 10 o'clock or something. I went downstairs and one of my neighbors was there and he goes, do you see the garage? And I go, no. Uh, and he takes me down in the garage and the whole place is a mess. Like a whirlwind went through it. He had all this, my neighbor had all this expensive electronic equipment that now that was taken. (00:30:45) I had two bicycles down there and those weren't taken. Uh, but all these boxes had been just littering the place. And I suddenly remembered the email I had sent Damien where I said, I have your stuff in storage. And I thought, did they think I meant the storage here? When in fact, I meant my story space off site. Um, I mentioned it only because it was odd that nothing was taken. I just, I mentioned it only because it was odd that nothing was taken. (00:31:15) I just, why would you break into a garage and there's all this expensive electronic equipment. You just leave that there. If it was just a bunch of junkies trying to get something to hawk, you know, and then I should also mention one other thing, which is when I was writing Camilio, uh, the manuscript was done, but I hadn't submitted it anywhere else yet. And I know, uh, but I hadn't submitted it anywhere else yet. (00:31:35) And I know, uh, I'm friends with a woman who is, um, an entertainment lawyer. She's quite a successful entertainment lawyer. Uh, and, um, she used to work for Warner brothers and she herself has been targeted for many years ever since she was a small child. And in fact, she was, um, basically sold into one of these mind control programs by her father. Um, or I don't know if sold is the right term initiated into one of these mind control programs. And I had known her for, for many years before I even knew, control programs. (00:32:08) And I had known her for, for many years before I even knew, um, I mean, before all this had started with Damien, I had met her like in, uh, 2001, 2002, something like that. And, and, uh, uh, she, her, her, her father had been a very important, um, judge in the Pacific Northwest and she has satanic ritual abuse in her background and my control stuff. (00:32:32) She remembers being trained in the forest, wearing camel fatigues, trained to shoot a gun when she was 10 years old, uh, even, even younger. And, uh, so I knew she knew about this stuff and wanted her to read the manuscript, uh, before I even sent it anywhere. And so she took the, she had the, I gave her the raw manuscript and she took it with her and it was Labor Day weekend. (00:32:54) And she took it with her to a restaurant and was reading it in the restaurant. And then she got into her car and she put the manuscript in her backseat along with a journal in which she was writing her comments in the journal about the, my manuscript. And she put those both in the back of the car and then went to the beach in San Monica and with her two dogs, she locks locks the car and takes her two dogs and goes on a walk on the beach. (00:33:17) She comes back about a half hour later, my manuscript is gone and her journal is gone. (00:33:23)

And there's actually no evidence that the car was broken into. And she thinks, did I leave it at the restaurant? Even though she knew she had, she was like, I just have to confirm that I did not leave it at the restaurant. So she drives back to the restaurant, goes back to the booth. She talks to the waiter, the waiter goes, no, you didn't, you didn't leave anything behind. Um, so, you know, you didn't leave anything behind. (00:33:45) Um, so, you know, I have no idea why anyone would need to go to that extent. You could just read my computer, what I wrote. I, you wouldn't need to grab the raw manuscript, you know? So I, I don't know if that, if, if, as I said, there was no evidence that the car had been broken into, uh, and yet, yet it was gone. (00:34:05) So I don't know if that was some sort of intimidation thing or I maybe, maybe it was more directed at her because she is, she's also targeted. So I, I don't know, but, uh, probably worth mentioning. Sounds like it's just, I want to mention that. Um, now, uh, when you, you had moved to Seattle yourself, trying to find a job, uh, and, uh, Damian decided to, to join you there. (00:34:29) Yeah. Not, not, not, not sounding like it was, it was, uh, exactly your first choice. No, it wasn't. In retrospect, it was actually a four-year-old. It was a four-year-old. It was a four-year-old. It was a four-year-old. No, it wasn't. In retrospect, it was actually a fortunate, because it's a great sequence in the book. Uh, I mean, sometimes like when you're a writer, sometimes things will happen and they may not be like the best thing that could possibly happen. In fact, it may be horrible, possibly happen. (00:35:03) In fact, it may be horrible, but there's this other voice in your head that's thinking, this'll be a great scene later on. In this, in this particular instance, I actually wasn't thinking that. I was just thinking that this is extremely annoying. Uh, but, uh, what, what, what happened was that, uh, uh, Damian had an ex-girlfriend, uh, and who was also a heroin addict and an ex-stripper. (00:35:30) And, uh, she was probably the only other person in the world who understood the way Damian's mind worked. And I have to say, when I was writing the manuscript, in the back of my head, I was kind of writing it to her. Cause I knew that she was like the only other person who would get the dark humor of this. I've, I've done interviews where sometimes people, humor of this. (00:35:51) I've, I've done interviews where sometimes people, I will see comments on YouTube or something, or this guy is like laughing about this. What's wrong with him? Uh, and it, I can only conclude that these people are just leaving, it will be leading perfect lives and where did nothing bad has ever happened to them. Uh, and, uh, don't recognize the fact that when something really weird and traumatic like this happens, the only way to deal with it is in fact, to have a sense of humor. And I mentioned in the, in the book that one of my, to have a sense of humor. (00:36:19) And I mentioned in the, in the book that one of my, I think my main purposes helping Damian through all this was just trying to kind of lighten the mood at times. I mean, that's where you get things like the invisible midget running joke from. (00:36:30)

It was just a way of kind of trying to make light of it or trying to see the humor and all this, the, the absurdity I should say. Um, because it is absurd on one level. It is absolutely. It's almost like a surreal work of surreal absurdism by Andre Paton or something. It sounds like that's very intentional. Uh, in, in, uh, intentional. You mean on their part? (00:36:55) Yes. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's almost a, um, it's, it's odd that you should mention that because, um, I was writing something entirely unrelated to conspiracies. I was writing an article about a film. Uh, I've been working, I've been working on a book called Hollywood haunts the world and the best negation, the cinema of a cult to taboos. It's an investigation into how cinema deals with, um, taboos in a way that people can wrap their minds around. In other words, taboos in a way that people can wrap their minds around. (00:37:27) In other words, if you, if you write about something that's taboo in a fictional format and a popular format, people can kind of deal with it before it becomes a factual truth. Uh, so the, the book is an analysis of various films going all the way back to the 1920s that deal with various taboo topics. I have a whole chapter that's just about films that dealt with the, the theory of evolution and Darwinism in the form of horror films in the twenties and thirties at a time where it was still illegal to talk about, uh, the theory of evolution. You know, the theory of evolution. (00:37:55) You know, you can get fired if you were a teacher and you were talking about that South. And so I have a whole chapter that's just about various horror films, particularly in the twenties and thirties that dealt with this topic in a kind of metaphorical way. Uh, same thing with UFOs, JFK assassination. Uh, I have an early chapter that's all about theosophy and a kind of nontraditional occultic religions, um, that were popular in the, in the twenties, particularly in Hollywood. (00:38:23) And, uh, so I deal with this one film called the phantom carriage, uh, but that was made 1921. And while I was researching it, I was reading, uh, Sigmund Freud's book, the uncanny, which is a classic work, uh, in analyzing works of fiction, uh, fiction that utilize what he called the uncanny, which is essentially is creating a work of fiction where, um, it seems real, uh, but there's also a dreamlike quality to it as well. (00:38:57) And as I was reading his analysis, he was breaking down, how do you make someone make the reader feel as if they're living in a dream or, or to question their sanity in a way where the story, um, uh, kind of instills in the reader, uh, almost dreamlike sense, uh, uh, disturbing quality of not knowing, is this real or is this not real? That's what he called the uncanny. Uh, is this real or is this not real? That's what he called the uncanny. (00:39:25) Uh, and as he's describing the components of what a fiction writer would do to instill this feeling in the reader, I realized that this was everything that was used in on Damien. (00:39:36)

Uh, and I wondered, is that a coincidence or, you know, I mean, a lot of the people who started the CIA, you know, were Yale literature graduates, James, Jesus Angleton, all these guys, they weren't, they didn't have military backgrounds. They were literature majors. They were poets and writers. And those were the guys who started the CIA. So, uh, I don't think it's too far out there to, to suggest that the people who, um, came up with these ideas on how to disturb someone, uh, may have been actually reading this essay by Freud, the uncanny and, and other literary works. Um, the uncanny and, and other literary works. (00:40:17) Um, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, you talk about it in the book, how they, how Hollywood and the CIA have kind of a revolving door. Oh yeah. And in fact, uh, it was, it was a surprising moment in the interview when Richard himself brought that up, uh, cause he mentioned the, the predator movie. And he said, whoever, because that he, that film came out right when he was beginning the Project Camellia. Uh, and he said, uh, whoever they're, Camellia. (00:40:43) Uh, and he said, uh, whoever they're, whoever their consultant was, was very good because even at that early stage, I think that film comes out in 86, 85, something like that. That, uh, 80s. Yeah. Somewhere in there. He said that even at that early stage, uh, the way they presented how the optical camouflage works, uh, was very accurate. Uh, and that he knew that from, was very accurate. (00:41:09) Uh, and that he knew that from, from personal experience. Uh, and, and, and, uh, we were talking off the air about David Politis and he wrote a book called Missing 411, The Hunters, which ends with a story about a bow hunter who was the wife of Bruce McAbee. Uh, you follow it just in an optical physicist himself. Uh, and she was in the forest. (00:41:30) And the interesting thing about that story is all there was a sudden silence, all the noise stopped, all the birds, she couldn't hear the birds or anything. Silence descended on her, which is exactly like Damien experienced. Uh, as I mentioned before in the last segment, the noise cancellation technology, then soon after that she saw hopping from tree to tree, this kind of pixelated, uh, being, and she said she just waited there with her bow ready, uh, and until finally the thing went away. (00:42:05) And then later on she got home and showed the photograph she had taken to her husband, Bruce McAbee, uh, who said, I, you know, I don't know, this is a really weird photo. And it's like the perfect guy to analyze it because he's not an optical physicist. And then supposedly later on, uh, sure son called her and said that that she was, I think at football practice or something like that. (00:42:26) Yeah. Something like that. And, and, and a UFO had been seen, uh, hovering in, in, in the same area, which, which, which makes me think, um, and we also mentioned off the air, there's a guy named Chris Bledsoe B-L-E-D-S-O-E who had, uh, an abduction experience in North Carolina in 2007. (00:42:44)

And his son saw two entities in the woods that went, uh, invisible. Um, and so it may, it makes me think that, uh, there's two things going on here, Richard's technology, which he said in an interview in Nexus magazine that I published last year, Richard said that one of his inspirations for starting this was his interest in UFOs. He first got interested in the subject back in the late sixties, UFOs. (00:43:10) He first got interested in the subject back in the late sixties, and he immediately, uh, keyed in on this detail that a lot of these ships seem to have a cloaking device. And that married with the fact that Richard had been a Rosha's Rosha Crucian and a Freemason since the 1950s, he'd been initiated into the Rosha Crucians when he was, uh, on Guam in the military. Uh, military. (00:43:29) Uh, he had known a lot of Rosha Crucians who claimed that there were these higher masters who could make themselves invisible. So then when, coupled with that and his interest in UFOs and the cloaking technology, that, that the craft seemed to deploy, he thought, how would you do that with our technology that we have access to now? That's what started him thinking about it. (00:43:49) So in a way you can think about project Camellia was a kind of cargo cult version of what the UFOs display. Um, yeah. Uh, yeah, but yeah. No, go ahead. Um, the, the UFO crossover here, like, like you were talking about that silence. And that's also what Jenny Randall's is, uh, coined as the Oz effect, which can also happen in altered states of consciousness. (00:44:17) Ah, that's interesting. Uh, I actually read a book by Jenny Randall's, but I didn't know. I've never heard that before. The Oz effect. It's, it's that silence and that weird feeling you get right before generally something high strangeness like will happen. And that's, and that's happened, uh, not just in that one incident in San Diego, but it's happened to Damien and other places as well. (00:44:41) So you have to ask yourself like in that, I assume in that instance, it was something that was technology. It was some sort of noise canceling technology given the context. But then there are these other cases where is it technology or is it something else? Again, I, I would say that there's, that both are happening at the same time. Um, uh, in other words, there's an overlap. (00:45:08) Uh, like, yeah. And how much is the government mimicking stuff that is genuinely paranormal? I think that happens a great deal because the government is very well aware of these, um, how should we say mythologies? Uh, uh, for example, uh, the men in black, uh, lore, um, uh, in back in 1997, a friend and I, we went to go see a lecture by Dave Emery. (00:45:39) Do you know who Dave Emery is? Not off the top of my head. He's a political researcher. He has a, um, he has a radio show that, uh, airs on WBAI, uh, which I believe is the Pacifica station in New York. Uh, and also, uh, he has a radio show that airs every, um, early in the morning on the Pacifica station here in Los Angeles, KPFK. Uh, early in the morning on the Pacifica station here in Los Angeles, KPFK. (00:46:04) Uh, he's, he was very much influenced by my May Brussel, the queen of conspiracies. And he was giving a lecture in, um, I remember correctly. (00:46:13)

It was like Altadena or someplace like that. And we drove all the way over there. He was giving a lecture about various conspiracies involving the Bush administration. This was in 97. And a week we drive all the way down there and we go, it was at a library and we go in there and Dave Emery sitting there. He's about to give this lecture. (00:46:31) Okay. And the people in the audience was a fascinating mixture of people who came to hear this conspiracy lecture. You know, there were like little ladies with blue hair and then there was like kids with leather jackets, like punk rockers, you know, and then there was like, kind of like, you know, kind of conservative people. Um, and, and, um, just across the board, you know, uh, conspiracies make strange bedfellows. Uh, conspiracies make strange bedfellows. (00:47:00) Uh, and right before the lecture was to start, my friend turns to me and says, we should go to the car and get a recorder so we can record it. And I go, Oh, that's a good idea. So we leave about like a minute before the lecture is about to begin. We leave, we got in the parking lot. There are these guys dressed in black right out of a John Keel book from 1960. I mean, and, John Keel book from 1960. (00:47:24) I mean, and, and there's a shiny black Cadillac that looks like it just came off the conveyor belt. Uh, and I mean, it was, they were like, it was as if they were wearing costumes, you know, but it wasn't Halloween and they were going around from car to car and photographing license plates. And it was, it was so blatant and ridiculous. We just turned to each other and are we seeing it was so blatant and ridiculous. (00:47:51) We just turned to each other and are we seeing this? And we actually went to a Jim's car. He, he grabbed his camera, uh, and he grabbed, um, the recorder and he came back and he actually took a picture of the car though. By that point, they'd all gotten back in the car. Uh, so it's just a picture of a car. It's like, it doesn't really mean anyway. (00:48:11) And we went back into the lecture and I was thinking, that's very strange because they did all this. They went to all this trouble, but we all should have been in the lecture. I mean, there was no, in other words, there was really no reason why we should have been out in the parking lot at that moment. We just went out on a whim to go get the recorder, moment. (00:48:32) We just went out on a whim to go get the recorder, but they got all dressed up to do this stunt of photographing the license plates. Right. And, and, and, and that same year in 97, on September 11th, 97, Richard Hoagland gave a, um, a presentation at the, uh, Evergreen hotel in Pasadena, right down from JPL. It was the night that the Mars lander had landed. (00:48:58) And Richard Hoagland did this whole thing that went on for like seven hours. And me and my, my, the same friend, we said, let's go down and check that out. (00:49:05)

So we go there and it was, it was crazy. Cause it went, it started like at eight o'clock at night and went on till like two in the morning, uh, Bridget Hoagland and various other people talking and there's a guy at one point we go out on the balcony and there's a guy just classic men in black garb. Uh, he's on his phone and he keeps like talking on the phone. (00:49:28) And at first I thought he was a security guard and I just dismissed it and really didn't think about it. Then the next night Richard Hoagland was on coast to coast talking about it. And he said, yeah, there was this men in black guy. He kept coming in and he would ask weird questions of the other people who were speaking, you know, kind of like intimidating questions and then leave and talk on the phone, go out on the balcony and then come back in and just stand there and be intimidating. So in both of these instances, intimidating. (00:49:53) So in both of these instances, if I'm not claiming any kind of supernatural men in black phenomenon, I'm saying that they were clearly human beings dressed in this garb, but they, they clearly knew and understood the folklore and intended it to be intimidating in some way. Right. And again, is it something that they made up or, or are they piggybacking on an actual phenomenon? Um, it's almost like Jacques Vallee writes about messengers of deception. Uh, it's almost like Jacques Vallee writes about messengers of deception. (00:50:24) Uh, he talks about, um, um, the connection between, he suggests that perhaps some of the cattle mutilations are the result of government, government experiments. And he mentions there was an actual program the CIA had in the Philippines where, uh, the Philippines are very invested in the supernatural. Um, and they're very superstitious and they actually believe in vampires. And in fact, there's this one creature that they believe is it, it's like this severed head that, that moves itself with its tongue using its tongue as like a pseudopod to drag it along the floor. (00:51:01) And then it crawls up into your bed and like tries to steal your soul. And these are things that are actually like, you know, people believe in them. And so, uh, there was a military operation, uh, where the CIA were killing people and making it seem like vampires had done it, which, which is weird. Uh, reminiscent of a, of a Bela Lugosi movie called Mark of the Vampire from 1930s, where the same thing happens, except it's not the CIA. It's just some, where the same thing happens, except it's not the CIA. (00:51:25) It's just some, just some one guy tries to make it seem like he kills this guy and makes it seem like a vampire did it. Um, uh, uh, and, and so there is evidence that, uh, that the government is well aware of these kind of folklores and mythologies and uses them, uh, when it's, when it's viable, there is a, there's a whole office in the Pentagon called the office of the occult and the entire purpose of it is to study those things and to use it when it's necessary. (00:51:53) Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. (00:51:56)

I think Nick Redfern actually wrote about that one as well in one of his books. Nah, that's interesting. Um, now there was a, there's a novel you wrote called the opposite of foolproof and that covers some of the stuff you don't talk about in camellia, but that's fiction. That is, that is fiction. And, uh, I, I, I really should, uh, I really should pull that out. (00:52:20) And I've, I've got, um, uh, I have like a million things going on at the same time. Uh, and like, so I, until last dog dies, just come out. I have another book coming out, a nonfiction book. Uh, speaking of Bail Legosi, it's a nonfiction book analyzing some of the films of Bail Legosi of the 1940s is kind of, um, a cultural analysis of 1940s America as seen through the films of Bail Legosi. (00:52:48) And I wrote it with a friend of mine named, uh, Gary Rhodes, who's the head of the film department in the, um, at the university of, um, uh, uh, of Belfast in Ireland. Uh, and we, we co-wrote this book about it. So it's, it's a book about film. So I've, I have a lot of interest and, uh, I've got all these projects going on. (00:53:09) And, and that particular novel, I'm actually quite fond of, and I really need to pull it out and, and start submitting it again and look over it again. Uh, has it been published at all? No, no, it's, it's, it's still in, in, in raw manuscript form. I've, I've never even submitted it anywhere. I really, I need to take it out and look it over again, but it's, it's on my to-do list. (00:53:32) In the book, he gives you the impression that you had published it already for some, maybe I misread that. Oh, I think you misread that because I, yeah, no, I haven't, I haven't published that, that particular book. Uh, I just, I think I mentioned that I wrote it. Uh, and, and, and that it w it, it kind of, the way it reads is, you know, that chapter where I'm in Seattle, uh, with Damien, like the kind of tone of that chapter, imagine that like at novel length, it's that kind of like crazy kind of almost gonzo, uh, tone to it. Oh, by the way, tone to it. (00:54:11) Oh, by the way, I realized that I went off on a tangent and didn't get back to what I was going to say about, about Seattle, which is that, that, that Damien had this ex-girlfriend, uh, who I call Melanie in the book and she was an ex-heroin addict herself and an ex-stripper. And, and I was to meet her in Seattle and that, and that I had kind of written the book with her in mind, knowing that she would understand the kind of absurdity and craziness that is the life of, of Damien. And, um, strangely, life of, of Damien. (00:54:41) And, um, strangely, she's one of the casualties, uh, of the book, uh, because, uh, she passed away before the book was published. (00:54:50)

And I actually contacted her mom as I wanted, um, to send her a copy of the book. There's a, there's a point in the book where I actually mentioned helping her move into an apartment in Seattle and her mom being there and her mom seeing me and being relieved because she thought we were going to get married or something. Like I was like the most normal person she'd ever seen her with, certainly more normal than Damien. So I think she, certainly more normal than Damien. (00:55:11) So I think she, she was hoping that we were going to get married or something. Uh, and, and uh, so I actually contacted her mother and I said, do you have her current contact information? Cause I want to send her the book and I discovered that she died and it was, it was clear to me that she didn't want to discuss what had happened. (00:55:26) So I got the feeling that it was something she was embarrassed about. Uh, I suspect it was, I don't know, either suicide or a drug overdose or something. But, uh, she, she, she's one of the people who did not live to see the book published, uh, which, uh, was unfortunate because as I said, I was, I was kind of writing it with her in mind and thinking that she would like it, uh, she would understand it and, and, and get it. Um, so yeah, uh, she would understand it and, and, and get it. (00:55:57) Um, so yeah, that's what happened to her. Hmm. Okay. Well, what, what, what is in that novel that relates to all this, that, that you haven't published? It's, it's, it's more, it doesn't really, I avoid entirely talking about any sort of conspiratorial subject except maybe in a passing reference. It's really more about, um, what was going on in my life aside from that at the time. Oh, okay. Uh, what was going on in my life aside from that at the time. (00:56:24) Oh, okay. Uh, so that's why I say it's sort of more like that chapter that is in Seattle, but like at greater length. Um, uh, I, I don't, I purposely didn't deal with any of the, um, political implications, what was going on with Damien at the time, because that was just like, you know, that would be like getting lost in the woods or something. (00:56:44) I realized that was a whole separate book, which it was. Gotcha. Um, so what are, what are the questions that came up in my brain, uh, fairly early onto this is what's so special about the night vision goggles? Um, and I mean the, the thing that immediately occurs to me is could these night vision goggles perhaps defeat the invisibility that, that is in fact what Richard Schonger and me and Damien, that was the conclusion we came to. That's pure speculation, but Richard, that was the conclusion we came to. (00:57:19) That's pure speculation, but Richard, Richard agreed with it that that was a reasonable thing to conclude because you had this invisibility technology happening. Then you had this night vision goggle thing going on at the same time. It's reasonable to conclude that there was some sort of connection between the two. And we thought that if you put the goggles on, you could actually see the people wearing the, the, the invisibility technology. (00:57:37) Um, it's interesting. There's two overlaps here with, um, ufology one is I just mentioned that Christopher Bledsoe and his experience with invisible beings in the woods. Well, he mentions, um, that when his son saw the two beings that were, that were, that went invisible, cause at first he saw them, he said, they were very small and they were wearing these weird goggles and then they went invisible. But he said, you could still see their eyes, went invisible. (00:58:08) But he said, you could still see their eyes, which were like glowing kind of red. Uh, interesting. Well, there's, there's, there's a connection there too to a lot of sightings and stuff. (00:58:15)

The whole red eyed monster thing. Oh, you have that, you know, John Keel, you know, Mothman. Yeah. Uh, and, uh, and, and also when I was on with, uh, George Knapp, we were talking about the parallels with Camellio and a hunt for the skin Walker. There was a point in the book that was fascinating because he mentioned that they had brought some remote viewers onto the ranch to remote view the ranch. (00:58:39) And they suspected, they wondered if some of the phenomena on the ranch might be some sort of government experiment. That was actually one of the theories being bandied about. And so they bought, brought these remote viewers there to remote view the area. And when a remote viewer said that they saw something that was very puzzling and they couldn't explain it, they said, all they saw was a ship, a Naval ship, people on the ship wearing these goggles. (00:59:07) And they said they thought it had something to do with what was going on at their ranch, but they couldn't explain what the connection was. And I read that, and again, kind of like me throwing in the eight man detail, not knowing what it meant. George Knapp threw that in there, not knowing what it meant, but maybe it might mean something later on. (00:59:25) And so when he, when he read Camellio, he was like, Oh, that's interesting. You get the goggles and the Navy both connected to this vision that the remote viewer saw. Um, like I said earlier, it could be that at the ranch, it's one of those cases where, well, we're going to experiment with this. Why not do it in a place where we're phenomena is already happening because that ranch is in an area that already had a reputation for being haunted, uh, going back like a hundred years or so. Um, haunted, uh, going back like a hundred years or so. (00:59:57) Um, or even longer. And so, yeah, why not, why not do it there? Uh, it's not going to draw any attention if you experiment with, with it there. Similar to what I was saying before about why was SCAC built across the street from where the Whaley house is. Right. Right. And the, uh, and the implications for this type of technology when dealing with the UFO phenomena, I mean, that's, it's something that I point out over and over that this stuff, it's like, uh, you know, someone's like, well, look at this video. This looks like it's real. (01:00:28) And it very well may be real, but there's no way to know if that is, uh, somehow paranormal, uh, or outside of what we know or just government technology. And who knows? How far ahead they have technology. Cause we'll say, well, we don't have anything that can do this, but we have no idea what the government has and what it can do. Oh, absolutely. Uh, that, that, um, in fact,Oh, absolutely. (01:00:52) Uh, that, that, um, in fact, a small segment of the interview I did with Richard originally appeared in an issue of UFO magazine, uh, around about 2007 and I originally wanted it in there for a specific reason, which is Damien said to me at one point, you know, if I didn't know any better, I would have thought I was dealing with aliens at one point in the creatures, these weird entities that were appearing in his room. (01:01:16) And he would have thought that maybe they were aliens, you know? Uh, so I kind of wanted this interview with Richard talking about his obstacle camouflage technology to be in UFO magazine so that people reading the magazine might read it and think, you know, maybe I need to stop and rethink what I think my experiences are. (01:01:34)

Okay. And, uh, and I'm not implying that every single UFO, um, experience is a result of this technology because no, obviously there were reports going back hundreds, maybe even thousands. Uh, so I'm not saying that, but I am saying that, like I said before, with the two men in black stories, I mentioned they quote, unquote are very familiar with, with the mythology, with the folklore, with the, the real paranormal phenomenon that's happening. (01:02:07) And I think they use it to their advantage. There's, and again, this is speculation. I can't prove that. And, and that's, that's the time honored purpose of fiction. Uh, uh, that's why I wrote the second book spies and saucers, which is a collection of three novellas that take place in the, um, 1950s. And the first story is called the fallen nun. And it starts out with this nun, this dead nun falling out of the sky and landing face down. (01:02:36) This guy's marijuana garden up in Malibu. And the guy has to think, Oh no, I got to call the police. But if I call the police, they're going to see the marijuana garden. I don't know what to do. Then at that moment, there's a knock at the door and there's two FBI agents and they want to search the place because they're looking for this nun. (01:02:53) Now it then ties into UFOs and smoking the skin of a dead reptilian alien, which initially, which triggers time travel, um, uh, and all kinds of other weird stuff. I quite frankly, you know, I think it's brilliant, but, but, um, this is a novel. This is a novel. This is, yeah. Or rather it's, it's a collection of three novellas that are all kind of intersect and, and they're all about spies and, and saucers. (01:03:22) And the last novella is called spies and saucers. And that, that story is about a screenwriter who's kind of down on his luck because he got caught up in the whole black communist blacklist thing. And, uh, he's known for writing kind of B science fiction, horror films, but he gets caught up in the, in the blacklist, even though he went to like a few communist meetings a few times to try to get laid, but he didn't really like care about communism at all, you know, but now it's coming back to bite him on the ass, you know? And so, uh, so he can't get any work as a screenwriter and he's his landlady is threatening to kick him out. And suddenly this guy steps in and says, well, kick him out. (01:04:07) And suddenly this guy steps in and says, well, we want to hire you to work on the screenplay. Uh, and it's this mysterious guy and it's made clear to him that this is some sort of government operation and that it's top secret and he can't talk about it. And they give him plot points that they want in the screenplay and they go, we were hiring you because we really interested in these science fiction films that you did. And we think you have a very interesting imaginative mind. Uh, that you did. (01:04:31) And we think you have a very interesting imaginative mind. Uh, and as the story unfolds, he doesn't really understand what he's working on because everything is compartmentalized. But later on, he begins to realize that he's, he's actually creating the entire mythology that will become the alien abduction phenomenon, but he's making it up and they're using it in real life operations. (01:04:50)

Uh, and he becomes, he's becomes feeling, feeling very guilty because he realizes that he's making up all the stuff that's being used to make people think this is happening to them. Uh, and then he, he sets out to try to get out of this operation without getting killed. Uh, and so that's an example of using fiction to talk about something that I think that this is exactly how it happened. Uh, think that this is exactly how it happened. (01:05:17) Uh, but I have no way of proving that that's the case. And there's actually, yeah, go on. When you look at the abduction scenario though, it ties back into like a fairy, abductions and stuff in them in the, in olden times. So, I mean, there is an archetype there that was already in place. Oh yeah. And it's, it's, it's changed. And then, then you have, it's changed. (01:05:38) And then, then you have, and one of the things I wanted to talk to you about before we run out of time is the whole military abduction angle. Um, and I I've never dug too far into this, but I guess my thing is like, I hesitate anytime someone recalls anything under hypnosis, first of all. And a lot of times when I hear about military abduction stuff, as well as a lot of production stuff, it's not that I think the stuff doesn't happen, but I want stuff that's not hypnotically achieved. (01:06:06) You know what I mean? You should talk to Melinda Leslie because, um, she has experiences. She has had a hypnoregression. However, uh, there are experiences that she remembers without that at all. In fact, one of those, those are the ones I'm more interested in. One of those is I mentioned earlier that in the last segment, I think that the mass abduction, she was involved in this mass abduction in 2010 in Arizona and her and like five other people. Well, because she was with five other people, other people. (01:06:35) Well, because she was with five other people, and after they returned them all, I think it was because there were six of them all together. They immediately started comparing notes when they woke up the next morning. And I think the fact that there was more than just one person enabled them to remember a lot of details without any regression whatsoever. Yeah. Um, even though they gave him some sort of mind wiping drug, it's just kind of liquid, this pinkish liquid that they give everyone, uh, that, um, helps obscure your memories. Uh, that, um, helps obscure your memories. (01:07:04) Uh, and, uh, but I think that if it happens to a bunch of people at once, it's somewhat less traumatic because it's something that's a shared experience. Uh, and so you should, you might want to have her on the show and talk to her because particularly ask her about that particular event, that mass abduction and in 2010, cause it's, it's extremely fascinating. The amount of details that she does remember about it. (01:07:26) Now does she, does she have like what she thinks are actual abduction experiences along with the military abductions? Yes. She, she, she, she feels she's an alien abductee and then immediately after the alien abduction, the military will come in and reabduct her and grill her about what did you see? (01:07:43)

How did the spaceship work? Uh, how does it work? If they're all, it's all technology, they're all gear heads. How does the spaceship work? Cause they want to be able to know how to back engineer that. Uh, and, and very often with these, my lab cases, they will describe the military abduction being far more traumatic than what the aliens did to them, which imagine that, you know, my, my, my personal, my personal feelings, at least at the moment because they do change is that the, that we're not dealing with aliens in the classical sense, but that we're dealing with something that, that informs more to, uh, to like a, uh, like something that's trying to actually transform us, you know, like the, the, cause you get gray aliens in DMT experiences, you get them in shamanistic journeys and things like that. And I think that's, you get them in shamanistic journeys and things like that. (01:08:37) And I think that's, that's kind of what we're dealing with is something that is beyond us that changes its face versus, you know, based on what we believe. So I wouldn't, you know, not everyone has traumatic abduction experiences. Some people have go through these experiences and come out with very positive results. Yes. Uh, in fact, uh, the fellow I mentioned earlier, Christopher Bledsoe,Yes. (01:08:58) Uh, in fact, uh, the fellow I mentioned earlier, Christopher Bledsoe, he was suffering from Crohn's disease. He, he, he owned a construction company and he had to get rid of it because he couldn't run it anymore. Then, uh, he had this abduction experience. He, he was the Crohn's disease, which if you know anything about it is very crippling. Uh, and he, he would wake up every morning, crippling. (01:09:17) Uh, and he, he would wake up every morning, praying for a good day just to get through the day after the abduction experience, it all went away. Uh, uh, so, so, and that also lends to the idea that it's probably not military at that point because, you know, unless they have cures for everything. Right. No, absolutely. I agree with you. Uh, uh, that's why I very much like Jacques fillet's book, passport to Magonia, which analyzes the, the historical, uh, um, parallels between the fairy, uh, legends, uh, and modern induction and, and how much they're, they're the same. (01:09:58) Uh, and in fact, going back to literature, which is, you know, I mean, I teach creative writing. I teach creative writing and, and literature classes, uh, go back and read Washington Irving, uh, Washington Irving, the first really great American short story writer, Washington Irving wrote, uh, Rip Van Winkle and go back and, and I, and I really, I seriously recommend that everyone go back and read that story. (01:10:24) It's a, it's about a man who's taken by little people. He falls asleep in a crop circle. It's essentially described as a crop circle, fall asleep in the circle. The little people tell him they take him underground. They give him a liquid to drink. Uh, you know, and then he comes, he has missing time and, and, and supposedly Washington Irving, you know, was told the story by people in the Appalachians, you know, which is exactly where the story takes place. So writers, you know, which is exactly where the story takes place. (01:10:53) So writers, you know, they hear these stories, they can't prove that they're real. (01:10:56)

So they create fictions and they come down to us through, through these fictions. Um, and, uh, uh, whether it's Washington Irving or like the spies and saucers books, I just told you about, um, you get evidence of this through fiction. Um, and, uh, and definitely the, the sort of ultra terrestrial theory of, uh, John Keel, Jacques Vallee has always been more where I, um, that seems the most reasonable explanation because it's over, it overlaps so many different areas at once. Um, if you recall, if you, it overlaps so many different areas at once. (01:11:34) Um, if you recall, if you, if you go back and read some of the books in the fifties about the UFO contact ease, a lot of the, um, the more mainstream view was not even to talk about what was in the, in the flying saucer. They're just nuts and bolts. They just, they're interested in UFO sightings and they didn't even want to even acknowledge that there could be something in it, you know? And then, eventually you get, um, someone like Albert K Bender who wrote flying saucers and the three men, uh, which is about early men in black stuff. It, that, uh, which is about early men in black stuff. (01:12:07) It, that, that book is so odd. Uh, it's, it's extremely peculiar. And at the time people said it was, um, just that he was utterly crazy, but it seems very prescient. He recently died in LA only, um, a couple of years ago, Albert Bender. Uh, he, in that book, if you read it now from today's perspective, there's a lot of that that seems extremely prescient. (01:12:29) He merges a cult, black magic, paranormal UFOs. And, um, every passing year, it seems more and more relevant, even though that book was considered just the goofiest book imaginable when it came out in 1962. Yeah. Well his, his whole encounter with the three men is basically, he created it through a magical ritual. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's true. Mm hmm. So, um, so I guess the last, there's a couple of things I want to slip in here real quick, but we still have a few minutes. One of the things is I noticed, but we still have a few minutes. (01:13:03) One of the things is I noticed, and I can't say I find this surprising considering his, uh, um, lifestyle, but it seems like Dion doesn't remember all this. Like when you're talking to, uh, to Richard, you know, you have to kind of tell the stories because Dion seems to not quite remember them. Right. Uh, it, it, it's funny. Um, that's always been the case. (01:13:26) I mean, so I don't know how much of it is from the trauma or, I mean, like even before all this happened, sometimes he would tell me something and he would say, Oh, you know, this happened when I was 13 and I would say, Damian, now that happened when I knew you, I met you when I was 16. I had one when you were 16. He was like, no, no, no,I had one when you were 16. (01:13:46) He was like, no, no, no, that happened when I was 13. I'm like, no. So that, you know, that's one reason why I, I'm so glad I was recording everything as it was happening, uh, because I locked down the details as it was happening. And, and, and, and in fact, uh, it was, it was one particular thing. He, he read the book, you know, obviously. And, and, and, and he was like, you know, he read the book, you know, obviously. (01:14:11) And, and, and, and he was like, you know, I think you got this one thing wrong. And, and I, and so I had to like, play it back to him. No, this is, this is what you said at the time, you know? So it's good to, it's good to take notes. I recommend everyone. Oh yeah. Yeah. (01:14:26)

No matter the circumstance, even if it's not a paranormal phenomenon, take notes. Yes. Um, so I had, I had this one experience I was going to throw to you. Um, just to see what you thought of it, because this one, uh, last summer, I think it was, yeah, it had to be last summer. Um, so I have a computer repair shop on my property and I had the doors open cause it was nice and I had walked out to get the mail and I was walking back toward the house and sort of in the direction of the shop, I heard a almost electronic sound like cuckoo and it was really loud. (01:15:04) And I went, what the hell was that? And I'm thinking did windows 10 come up with some new sound and that was one of the computers that was updating. Like what? I better go check what this is. And as I start walking toward the shop, I see what's basically an invisible bubble. Like it's this small bubble the size of like a large bird maybe. (01:15:26) And it's like moving in a straight line directly between me and the store. And it eventually disappears along the side of the store into a tree. But it, it made no noise. It was almost just like a distortion field. And like I could see through it, but everything was distorted, circularly distorted like a bubble. And then it was just gone. I couldn't figure out where it went. (01:15:50) Like I ran over to the tree and there was just nothing there. And I'm thinking, okay, was that paranormal or was that some new kind of drone that they're zipping around here? Now when you say invisible bubble, do you mean it was like transparent? Is that what you mean by obviously? Yes, it was good. I could, I, yeah, I could see it, but I could only see it because it was distorting the stuff behind. (01:16:09) I see. Like, had I not been looking right at it, I wouldn't have seen. Right. That's exactly how Bruce McAbee's wife described that entity. She saw in the woods exactly the same way. You had to be looking directly at it to see the distortion. And had I not started walking toward the shop at that very moment, after hearing that noise, it wouldn't have moved in front of it. (01:16:32) So it was kind of a weird one, two punch. I'm like, okay, that was odd. Did it literally sound like, like a cuckoo clock? Like it made like a very distinct cuckoo noise, but it sounded like it was a electronic. So it had a slight distortion to it. And so, okay. So the sound was definitely coming from the bubble. I don't know. Okay. I heard the sound. And then a few seconds later,I don't know. (01:16:56) Okay. I heard the sound. And then a few seconds later, I, you know, like, like I said, initially I thought it must've been a computer that did it in the shop, but it was really loud, you know, like for coming from inside the shop. (01:17:03)

That that's, that's, you know what, that's, um, uh, Christopher Bledsoe, when he mentioned his son seeing those two invisible entities wearing the, the goggles, uh, he says that there was something about, um, the, the, the weird, they're weird eyes, the goggles slash eyes that they, he said, they, it almost looked digital. Uh, um, and, and so there's this weird component to some of these things where people see them and they're not quite sure. (01:17:35) Are they flesh beings or are they computers or are they holograms? You know, there's something about them where they, they seem to be alive and at the same time they almost seem like created electronic beings. Yeah. Um, and then that's, that's the case, uh, you know, quoting a Bender, you know, in Gray Barker's book, um, uh, the first book he wrote, they knew too much about flying saucers, which was about Bender. (01:18:02) He talks about the Flatwoods monster and, and in there it's just sort of like, it's a robot, but it's an alien. And it's, you know, what is it? Um, this weird hybrid of technology and, and, and some kind of living being. Um, yeah, that's, that's fascinating. And that, that's, you know, that the Flatwoods monster, I think is another case of potentially the government experimenting on American citizens. Oh, sure. Uh, uh, there, there's, citizens. (01:18:36) Oh, sure. Uh, uh, there, there's, there's a lot of cases where, um, for example, uh, uh, Betty and Barney Hill, um, where they describe the people who abducted them as, um, as they even at one point, uh, he even describes them as wearing like uniforms. It almost looked like Nazi uniforms, which is suspicious, you know, why, why would, why would aliens be wearing that? Um, uh, I have a lot of questions about, about, and, and in fact, they were my labs. Um, I have a lot of questions about, about, and, and in fact, they were my labs. (01:19:09) Um, if you, if you have Melinda Leslie on each talk to her about that, cause she actually knows a little bit about that. Uh, they weren't just alien abductees. They were also my labs, Betty Barney. Interesting. Yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of sketchy stuff in there. Not, not from Betty and Barney Hill themselves, but like around that whole situation that, that makes it look very suspicious and, and ties into, uh, the military. (01:19:31) Oh yeah, definitely. Um, but with my, with my experience, that's, that's the first time I think I've had something like that happen. That was, that seemed like it could be technology. Like I've had a lot of very weird things happen into my life and you know, none of them came across to me as being anything that could be technological as whereas this, this felt like it was a drone almost that just zipped in front of me and it was like, but I couldn't see it. (01:19:59) It almost sounds like, um, do you ever seen earth versus the flying saucers? The Ray Harryhausen film at some point, there's a little, there's a little miracle drone that is almost looks like, um, like a little flying globe of light that flies around, but it's actually a flying camera and it's spying on the scientists as they're trying to create this sonic weapon to shoot the flying saucer out of the air. (01:20:24) And, uh, but, and, and now you may say, well, so what? It's a science fiction movie. (01:20:29)

But what's interesting is that the film was written by a Curt Siadomak and Curt Siadomak claimed in an autobiography that he wrote right before he died. It was published in 2000 and he died just a few months before the autobiography came out. He claimed in there that he was approached by the OSS after he published his book, Donovan's brain, which is all about Donovan's brain was a bestseller, a science fiction novel about basically creating remote control killers, uh, killing people from afar action at a distance, as they like to call it in the military. And, uh, as they like to call it in the military. (01:21:04) And, uh, the guy who recruited Siadomak read Donovan's brain and thought that the Donovan in the title was WH Donovan, the head of the OSS. He actually thought that Siadomak was writing about WH Donovan. So he recruited Curt Siadomak and he said, we'd like you to, to write and work for us, which was part of the inspiration for the story. I just told you about Spies and Saucers. Uh, cause I, cause I wondered, well,I just told you about Spies and Saucers. (01:21:28) Uh, cause I, cause I wondered, well, what was he doing for them? And why, you know, he doesn't go into detail about it. He goes into detail about the first meeting and being hired and how they thought that Donovan was a reference to WH Donovan and that he worked for them for many years in during, during World War II and afterwards. And then later on, if you see the movies that he writes Earth versus Flying Saucers and particularly a movie called Creature with the Atom Brain, which is all about reanimating the dead and using them as mind controlled assassins. Uh, controlled assassins. (01:22:04) Uh, and there's even a reference in the middle of the movie to Jose Delgado, who wrote the book, Physical Control of the Mind. And Jose Delgado was a, was a scientist at mind control scientist from Spain who was recruited by the CIA and worked for Yale. And he was the grandfather of mind control technology. He experimented on mental patients and children and writes about it in physical control of the mind. Oddly enough, weird synchronicity, control of the mind. (01:22:28) Oddly enough, weird synchronicity, Jose Delgado retired to sunny San Diego and died in 2011. And he was living in San Diego at the time. All this happened to Damien in 2003, 2004. Wow. All right. One more time. Tell people where they can get the book. Not on Amazon. Well at the moment, uh, you can't get on Amazon because you can go to Amazon if you want to pay a thousand dollars to some crazy person who's selling it for that much. Uh, thousand dollars to some crazy person who's selling it for that much. (01:22:56) Uh, but, uh, you can get it for $18 from or books, O R B O O K S or books get it for the print version for 18 bucks. The ebook is about 10 bucks. So, or books. Okay. And your blog, my blog is and your blog. It was scotology.com C R Y P T O S C A T O L O G Y. (01:23:15) I make it easy on people to find this. (01:23:18)

All right. Is there anywhere else that people can find you? Uh, well, by the way, the other books, like until last dog dies, the novel. Oh yeah. And spies and saucers. Uh, and cryptoskeletology, my first book, those you can get on Amazon for a reasonable price. Okay. It's just, it's just Camellia that you want to go and get it from or books.com. Um, yes. (01:23:41) So, and then the blog is cryptoskeletology.com. And, uh, if you want to contact me through, if you have your own, if you're being gang stalked and, or you had similar experiences and you want to contact me, you can, uh, send me, uh, an email through the cryptoskeletology site. Oh, okay. Perfect. Thank you so much for spending time with us talking about all this. It was very illuminating. (01:24:07) And a special thanks to our Patreons who are donating at the $10 or above level. Christopher Sheehan, Mark Brady, Alison Cook, Christopher Vaughn, Robert Groom, Chris Elmquist, Supa Inframan, Patricia Gaia Quinta, Lauren Melton, John Eddy, Alfred Tuttle, Kevin Shrek, and Carla Mahoney. Thank you all so very much. All right. I hope you enjoyed that. That was a really interesting interview. And again, I can't recommend his book enough if you found that interesting because it's incredibly well-written on top of being a fascinating subject. (01:24:48) So, um, yeah, we have a bunch of interesting stuff coming up, but I don't want to jinx any of it because none of it's been recorded yet. But, uh, we have some, some guests coming on that haven't been on in a while. We're going to be doing some really interesting stuff here in the next few weeks. And, uh, I'm looking forward to it. (01:25:06) I hope it comes out as well as I hope it will. And, uh, I guess that's about it for this week. You have been listening to where did the road go? This show has made possible in part from our Patreons and we thank you and everyone listening for helping us continue this exploration of the strange. You can always find everything. Where did the road go? (01:25:27) Related at www.wheredidtheroadgo.com. And thank you so much for your support. (01:25:36)

(2025-05-17)

AI 要約 : カメレオン現象の核心​

前置き​

Youtube 動画(1:25:40)​

要約​

対話​

文字起こし内容の整理​

1. Damien氏の体験談（Robert Guffey氏が聞いた話として主張する事柄）​

2. Robert Guffey氏自身の体験と関連する出来事​

3. UFO/パラノーマル現象、テクノロジー、政府/軍との関連性に関する考察​