Robert Guffey の "Chameleo" 発言(2021-02-12) の整理

May 17, 2025 · 189 min read

前置き

Robert Guffey が最近、また新たな捏造話を引っ提げて再登場している。

そこで、過去記事でも取り上げた Robert Guffey の出演した過去の podcast 動画を AI(NotebookLM) で整理した。3時間弱の podcast なので AI の整理結果は役に立つ。

以下の内容の大半は Guffey が出演した他の Podcast の内容とも被るが、繰り返し証言することは作り話の矛盾や綻びが浮かび出やすくなる（犯人尋問のテクニック）。

AI生成の解説（音声対話）

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/ad51e08f-f677-44c5-ad76-07d48fb78655/audio

Youtube 動画(2:43:21)

Robert Guffey on Chameleo - REDUX Feb 12, 2021

www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23-7S32XzY

9,000 views 2021/02/13

対話

添付ソースは長い podcast 動画の文字起こしファイルで、長いために 3分割しています。それぞれ、

英文文字起こし 1of3.text
英文文字起こし 2of3.text
英文文字起こし 3of3.text

で 1 が podcast の冒頭, 2 が中間部分, 3 が末尾に相当しています。

この 3つのテキストの内容は、捏造された物語の可能性が高いです。

この文字起こしを元に、内容を詳しく整理して。検索利便性のために、人名や地名などの固有名詞は英語表記のままとして。「話者が事実と主張している事柄」と、「話者の主観や想像」は区別して。ソースが長いので整理した結果が長くなるのは構いません。ソースで語られている主要な事件は漏らさず、網羅してください。

ご提示いただいたWhere Did The Road Go?のポッドキャスト文字起こしに基づき、内容を整理します。このエピソードでは、作家のRobert Guffey氏が、ご自身のノンフィクション書籍**"Cameo, A Strange But True Story of Invisible Spies, Heroin Addiction, and Homeland Security"**について、ホストのSoraya氏との対話を通して語っています。整理にあたっては、話者が事実として主張している事柄と、話者の主観や想像、推測、他者の主張などを区別します。

Robert Guffey氏の紹介と執筆活動

Robert Guffey氏は、ノンフィクションとフィクションの両方を執筆する作家です。
ノンフィクションの著書には、**"Cameo"と"Cryptoscatology"**があります。
フィクションの著書には、**"Until the Last Dog Dies"と短編集"Spies and Saucers"**があります。
**"Cameo"は2015年に出版されました。Robert Guffey氏は、この本は「絶対にノンフィクション」**であると主張しています。
"Cameo"とフィクションの書き方は非常に異なると感じていると述べています。特に"Cameo"は、現実離れしているがゆえに、友人との会話や科学者へのインタビューの長い文字起こしを含めることで、そのオーセンティシティ（信憑性）を示す意図があったと説明しています。
**"Until the Last Dog Dies"は、脳のユーモア中枢のみに影響を与えるパンデミックウイルスを描いたフィクションで、"Cameo"**での体験からメタファーとして着想を得たものだと述べています。
**"Spies and Saucers"**は、1950年代のコンタクティー文化を舞台にした3つのノベラ集です。特に最後のノベラ「Spies and Saucers」では、政府のためにエイリアン拉致現象の神話全体を作り出す脚本家の設定を描き、政府が既存の神話や民間伝承を利用して作戦を実行しているという示唆をフィクションとして表現しています。
Robert Guffey氏は、作家として、現実では証明できない事柄をフィクションを通じて表現することもあると述べています。

Robert Guffey氏と陰謀文化、Damienとの関係

Robert Guffey氏は、Walter Boart氏との友人関係を通じて陰謀文化に関心を持つようになりました。
Walter Boart氏の著書**"Operation Mind Control"** (1977年出版) は、MKUltraを含むマインドコントロール作戦に関する初期の詳細な書籍で、単なる実験ではなく「作戦的」に行われていたことを指摘しています。Walter Boart氏がこの主題を調査するきっかけは、ベトナムから「段ボールの記憶」（感覚的な詳細を伴わないイメージのみの記憶）を持って帰還した従兄弟の体験でした。
Robert Guffey氏は、**"Operation Mind Control"や、Candy Jones氏（催眠プログラムされたエージェントだと主張）に関する"The Control of Candy Jones"**などの書籍を通じて、マインドコントロールとその周辺領域に精通していました。
Kathy O'Brien氏の著書**"The Transformation of America"**も読んでおり、友人であるDamien氏に共有したことがあり、Damien氏はその内容（Hillary Clinton氏との性的遭遇の主張など）を「右翼のためのポルノのようだ」と批判し、奇抜すぎる陰謀論には懐疑的でした。しかし皮肉なことに、Damien氏自身が後に今回の事件の中心人物となります。
Robert Guffey氏とDamien氏は、高校時代からの友人です。
Damien氏は薬物依存、特にヘロイン中毒の問題を抱えていました。Robert Guffey氏は、これがDamien氏の話が信じられない理由の一つになった可能性があると述べています。ただし、ヘロインは一般的に激しい幻覚を引き起こす薬物ではないとも指摘しています。

Damien氏に起こった主要な事件（「話者が事実と主張している事柄」）

Robert Guffey氏は、友人Damien氏に2003年夏から始まった一連の奇妙な出来事を事実として主張しています。

事件の発端（2003年夏、San Diego, Pacific Beach）:
- Damien氏の家に**Lee（本名Doyleだと後に判明）**という知人の紹介で滞在していた人物がいました。
- ある夜、Leeがラップトップを開くとDoD（国防総省）のシンボルが画面にフラッシュしました。これを見たDamien氏はLeeに家を出るよう求めました。Leeは「追跡できない」と主張しましたが、数分後に女性捜査官が訪ねてきました。
- **NCISの特別捜査官Lita Johnson氏（偽名、本名と連絡先は知っていると主張）**と他の2名が現れ、アパートの捜索を要求しました。
- 元麻薬取締官の息子であるDamien氏は、令状の提示を求め、捜索を拒否しました。Lita Johnson氏は「すぐに令状を取って戻る」と述べ、Damien氏はドアを閉めました。
- Damien氏はアパートにいた他の人々に裏口から出るように指示しました。
- 数分後、NCISとSan Diego Police Department（SDPD）が戻ってきました。話者によると、彼らは連携していないように見えたとDamien氏は述べています。
- Damien氏は、Leeが軍事装備品（夜間暗視ゴーグル）をAl-Qaedaに売却するのにDamien氏が関与していると疑われたと主張しています。Damien氏は彼を知らないと弁明しましたが、彼らは信じませんでした。話者はこの状況を**「Kafkaesque（カフカ的）」**と表現しています。
初期のハラスメント:
- 拘留後、Damien氏は解放されましたが、執拗なハラスメントが始まりました。
- アパートの外に車が駐車され、ヘッドライトを窓に向けて照らしたり、深夜3時半に大音量でカーラジオを鳴らしたりしました。
- Damien氏が車のナンバープレートを記録してSDPDに照会したところ、公式には存在しない車両でした。話者は、これが Damine氏が被害妄想ではない最初の兆候だったと述べています。話者は、公式に存在しないのはそれが政府車両だった場合のみ可能だと主張しています。
- このハラスメントはGang Stalkingまたは当時Street Theaterと呼ばれていました。これは、例えば通行人がDamien氏について話すなど、まるでパフォーマンスのように行われたと説明されています。
SAICとATCの近接性:
- Damien氏のアパートは、Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC)とAmerican Technology Corporation (ATC)という、エキゾチックな兵器や「非殺傷性兵器」、ノイズキャンセリング兵器などを専門とする企業から徒歩圏内にありました。SAICは当時、最も幽霊が出るとされる場所として有名なWhaley Houseの向かいに位置していました。話者は、実験場所として既に「曰く付き」の場所を選ぶのは、奇妙な出来事が起きても説明がつくため理にかなっていると推測しています。SAICは後に本社をVirginiaに移転し、LeidosとSAICの2社に分かれたと述べられています。
ハラスメントのエスカレーションと奇妙な現象:
- ハラスメントはさらに奇妙なものへとエスカレートしました。
- ベッドに寝ていると、壁に銃を持った手のシルエットが現れ、銃口がDamien氏の頭を指すのが見えました。
- 黒いエネルギーの塊がカーペットを這い、革ジャンに入り込み、革ジャンが動くのを目撃しました。話者は、これはエイリアンアブダクティーとされる多くの人が報告している現象と類似していると述べています。
- 見えない人間が家の中にいて、Damien氏に話しかけたり、押したりしました。話者は、これは統合失調症の古典的な症状のように聞こえると述べています。
- 洗面所の鏡を開けた際、動いている鏡の中に一瞬、小さな人間の輪郭が見えました。話者は、これは光学迷彩技術が不完全な場合に起こる現象であり、Richard Schonger氏が確認した最も重要な詳細の一つだったと述べています。
- Damien氏は、アパートが**「大きくなったり小さくなったりしている」（fake space phenomenon）と報告しました。これはDamien氏の友人たちも気づいた現象であり、これもまた光学迷彩技術で実現可能**なことだと述べています。
- 電話で話している際に、背景のノイズ（車の音など）が突然止まったことがありました。これはノイズキャンセリング技術の使用を示唆していると述べています。
- 部屋の中で物が飛ぶなど、ポルターガイストのような現象が起こりました。
- Damien氏は、窓の外にBoris Vallejoの絵画のような幻影を見たことがあり、これも光学迷彩技術で可能だと述べています。
- Lita Johnson氏は断続的にDamien氏に電話し、「協力する気になったか」「どこに夜間暗視ゴーグルがあるのか」と尋ねました。協力を断るとハラスメントが再開されました。
フードファイト事件:
- Damien氏がキッチンで料理中、窓の外にいた2人の男（jarheads）がDamien氏について話しているのを聞き、食べ物を混ぜた奇妙な混合物を作り、それをフェンス越しに彼らに投げつけました。男たちは混合物まみれになり、現場から逃走しました。
- 後に、Damien氏がLita Johnson氏に会食を提案した際、彼女はこの事件に言及し、自分たちが見ていたことを事実上認めました。
Damien氏の体調悪化と逃走:
- 2003年夏から2004年初頭にかけて、Damien氏は体重が減少し、血尿が出るなど、体調が著しく悪化しました。話者は、まるで「強制収容所の犠牲者」のようだったと述べています。
- Robert Guffey氏はDamien氏に送金し、逃走を助けました。送金の際、電話が何度も切断される妨害がありました。話者は、オペレーターを介したコレクトコールを利用し、オペレーターが相手に料金負担の意思を確認している短い時間を利用してパスワードのヒントを叫び、Damien氏に伝えることができたと主張しています。
- Damien氏はバンに荷物を積み込み、San Diegoを出発しました。
逃走中の追跡:
- 2004年初頭の時点で**「ドローン」という言葉は一般的ではなかったにもかかわらず、Damien氏はバンで移動中、「マンホールの蓋くらいの大きさの小さな円盤型の飛行物体」**に追跡されたと報告しました。
- San DiegoからTexas、そしてMinnesotaへと移動しました。
- Minnesotaの公衆トイレで、見知らぬ男から**「頼むからその物を返してくれ」**と懇願されました。これは、彼らが追跡していることを認めた唯一の瞬間でした。直後に別の男が現れ、懇願した男を引きずり出しました。
- バンの故障後、Damien氏を助けた通りすがりの2人の男たちは、Damien氏の話を聞いて懐疑的でしたが、話者が電話でその内容が真実であると伝えている最中に、彼らの家の外に小さな飛行物体がホバリングしているのを目撃し、考えを改めました。彼らはDamien氏を「悪魔憑き」だと思い、自家製のエクソシズムを行おうとしましたが、最終的にバンにガソリンを入れてDamien氏の旅立ちを助けました。
Winona, Kansasでのハラスメント一時停止:
- Damien氏は最終的にWinona, Kansasという小さな町にたどり着きました。そこでハラスメントは一時的に（約3ヶ月）停止しました。話者は、小さな町では目立ちすぎるためか、あるいは住民が銃を所有していることが理由かもしれないと推測しています。

Robert Guffey氏が信じるに至った経緯

Robert Guffey氏は、当初、Damien氏の話を聞いて**「薬物による被害妄想ではないか」**と疑っていました。
公式に存在しない車両のナンバープレートリストを見たことが、彼がDamien氏の話を信じ始める最初の兆候でした。
しかし、話が不可視の人間や部屋が大きくなるなどの奇妙な現象に進むにつれて、再び懐疑的になりました。
決定的なのは、Winona, Kansasでハラスメントが停止した期間に、Damien氏がRichard Schonger氏のウェブサイトを見つけ、そこに記載されていた光学迷彩技術が自身が目撃した現象と一致していることに気づいたことでした。
Robert Guffey氏は、Richard Schonger氏がSan DiegoのScottish Rite Freemasonryの同じロッジのメンバーであることを知り、彼に連絡を取りました。
Robert Guffey氏、Damien氏、Richard Schonger氏の3人で面会した際に、Damien氏がRichard氏に自身の体験を語り、特に鏡の中に小さな人間の輪郭を見たことや、技術が不完全な場合に小さな点の輪郭が見えるという話をしたところ、Richard氏はそれが自身の技術が不完全な状態と一致すると認めたことが、Robert Guffey氏がDamien氏の話が真実であると確信した決定的な瞬間でした。Richard氏は、Damien氏が物理学者でも光学迷彩技術の専門家でもないのに、そのような詳細を知っているはずがないと考えました。

Richard Schonger氏とProject Cameleo

Richard Schonger氏は光学迷彩技術であるProject Cameleoの開発者です。
彼は最近まで最高機密のプロジェクトに関わっていたが、Project Cameleoは軍の資金援助を受けていない個人のサイドプロジェクトだと述べています。
Richard氏は、SAICの従業員が10年前に彼の技術を見学に来たことに言及しています。また、海軍も彼の研究室を訪れたと述べています。
Project Cameleoの技術は、人をカモフラージュするだけでなく、部屋を実際よりも大きく見せたり小さく見せたり、窓の外に画像を投影したりすることが可能です。
Richard氏によると、この技術は心理戦目的で、人を狂わせるために使用することも可能であり、木の姿を人間や恐竜、巨大なクモなど、想像できるあらゆるものに見せかけることができると述べています。彼はこれを米国の敵対国に対して使用することを想定しており、民間人に対して使用されるとは考えていませんでした。
Richard氏がProject Cameleoを着想したきっかけは、**FreemasonryとRosicrucianism（薔薇十字団）**への関心（1950年代にGuamで軍務中に始まりました）と、UFO現象への関心（1960年代後半に始まりました）が融合したことだと述べています。Rosicrucianの伝説には、自身を不可視にできるマスターの話があり、UFOにはクローキング技術があるように見えたため、現代の技術でそれをどう実現できるかを考え始めたのが技術開発の始まりだと語っています。
話者は、Richard氏の技術は、UFOが示す現象を**「模倣した」（cargo cult version）**ものだと示唆しています。

Gang Stalkingと標的

Robert Guffey氏は、Gang StalkingやStreet Theaterは、黒い予算（black budget）の膨張と、テロリストを「作り出す」必要性から生まれた現象だと推測しています。
SAICのような企業だけでなく、InfraGard、Macy Group、DSAC、Whitney, Bradley, and Brownなど、多くの民営化された企業がこれに関与しており、彼らは**「surveillance role players」または「government-funded vigilantes」**と呼ばれていると述べています。
Robert Guffey氏は、標的となるのは**薬物中毒者や社会から外れた人々だけでなく、「誰でも標的になりうる」**と強調しています。
Minnesotaの弁護士の事例が挙げられています。この弁護士は成功した人物でしたが、Damien氏と同様のGang Stalkingを経験し、事業を捨てて逃走しました。話者は、彼がこれを経験したきっかけは、警察に対するハラスメント訴訟でアフリカ系アメリカ人イスラム教徒の女性を代理して勝利したことかもしれないと推測しています。
別の事例として、ランダムに標的になったと思われる女性が挙げられており、彼女はベッドで寝ている際に**「見えない手」**に触られたと主張しています。
話者は、ハラスメントは被害者を精神的に追い詰め、被害妄想的な状態にする意図があると示唆しています。これは、ジークムント・フロイトの**「不気味なもの（the uncanny）」**に関するエッセイで描かれる、読者に現実と夢の区別を曖昧にさせ、精神的な不安定さを引き起こす手法と類似していると論じています。話者は、CIAの設立者の中に文学出身者が多かったことから、彼らがこのような文学理論を応用した可能性があると推測しています。

Robert Guffey氏自身の体験

Robert Guffey氏自身も、Damien氏の事件に関わって以降、**「妨害的な出来事（obstructive incidents）」**を経験していると述べています。

レストランでの遭遇:
- 友人との約束のためLong Beachでバスを待っていた際、見知らぬ男がDamien氏が言っていたこと（彼を尾行している人がいるなど）を彷彿とさせる行動を取りました。
- その男は、Milton William Cooper氏の"Behold the Pale Horse"やIlluminati、Protocols of the Elders of Zionといった陰謀論の話題をRobert Guffey氏とその友人に不自然に振りました。話者は、その質問の仕方がマニュアル通りであるかのように感じたことや、肉体労働者だと主張する割に手が柔らかかったことなどから、その男が政府機関のエージェントである可能性が高いと疑いました。話者は、食事や水を口にせず、警戒しました。
ゴミ箱の出来事:
- 自宅アパートの窓の下にあるゴミ箱にゴミを捨てに行った際、以前からアパートの向かいの車に座っていた男が、Robert Guffey氏が捨てたゴミ袋の中から紙を取り出して確認しているのを目撃しました。
バンに乗った若者の出来事:
- アパートの向かいに常に駐車していたバンにいた2人の若者がいました。
- ある時、Robert Guffey氏が娘さんと散歩中に、一人の若者が彼らのすぐ近くの木で公然わいせつ行為を行いました。
- 後日、若者たちがバンを離れた隙に、Robert Guffey氏はバンに**「ここには住めません。管理より」**と書かれたメモをワイパーに挟みました。
- 戻ってきた若者たちはメモを見つけ、「誰に話したんだ！」とお互いを殴り合い始めました。
- 喧嘩の後、一人の若者はバンの中に何かを探すようにかがみ込み、その後、空からヴァルキリーか空飛ぶ猿のようなものが降りてくるかのように、奇妙な表情で一方をじっと見つめていたと描写しています。
- 話者は、ランダムなメモを見つけただけでなぜ殴り合うのか、説明がつかない非常に奇妙な出来事だったと述べています。
電子的な音と空気の歪み:
- 自宅で仕事中、敷地内のコンピュータ修理店の方向から**「電子的なカッコウ時計のような音」**が非常に大きく聞こえました。
- その直後、修理店のドアの前に**「歪んだ空気の泡」**のようなものが見え、それが動くと、そこを通して見える壁が歪んでいるのが見えました。
- 話者は、これはBruce McAbee氏の妻が森で見たエンティティの描写と全く同じであり、Christopher Bledsoe氏の息子が**「デジタル」に見えるゴーグル/目**を持つ見えない存在を見たという記述とも類似していると指摘しています。話者は、これらの存在が「生きている」と同時に「作られた電子的存在」のように見える、技術と生命体のハイブリッドである可能性を示唆しています。

その他の関連する主張や情報

電話での奇妙な現象: Damien氏は電話中にランダムな数字の羅列を聞くことがあったと報告しており、話者はこれはJohn A. Keel氏の"Mothman Prophecies"にも同様の現象が記載されていると述べています。
ガレージの荒らし（2008年）: Damien氏がRobert Guffey氏に送付を依頼したDamien氏の著作物が保管されているオフサイトのストレージについて言及したメールの後、Robert Guffey氏のアパートの共有ガレージが荒らされました。高価な電子機器などは盗まれず、何も盗まれていなかったため、これは単なる窃盗ではなく、Damien氏の著作物を探していた関係者による行為である可能性が高いと推測しています。
原稿とジャーナルの盗難: Robert Guffey氏が"Cameo"の原稿を友人（エンターテイメント弁護士で、自身も長年標的にされている人物）に見せた際、友人の車から原稿と、原稿に関するコメントが書かれた彼女のジャーナルが盗まれました。車には侵入の痕跡がありませんでした。話者は、これも嫌がらせか、友人を標的としたものかもしれないと推測しています。
UFO現象との関連性:
- Robert Guffey氏は、Project Cameleoのような政府技術と真の超常現象が同時に起きている、あるいは政府が超常現象を模倣している可能性があると考えています。
- **突然の静寂（Oz Effect）**や、ピクセル化した存在の目撃など、UFO関連の報告やMyLab体験と今回の事件で報告された現象の間に類似性があると指摘しています。
- Men in Blackの現象についても、政府が意図的に神話や民間伝承を利用している例として挙げています。自身もDave Emery氏の講演会やRichard Hoagland氏の講演会で、古典的なMen in Blackに扮した人物（ナンバープレートを撮影する、電話で話しているだけのように見えるなど）を目撃したと主張しています。
- Military Abduction (MyLab)にも触れ、特にMelinda Leslie氏の複数人でのMass Abduction体験は、催眠回帰なしでも多くの詳細が思い出されているため重要だと述べています。Betty and Barney HillのケースもMyLabであった可能性を示唆しています。
- Kurt Siadomac（小説"Donovan's Brain"の著者）がOSS/CIAのために働き、リモートコントロールによる暗殺者などをテーマにした作品に関わっていたという主張に言及し、彼の映画**"Creature with the Atom Brain"がマインドコントロール暗殺者を扱っており、その中にJose Delgado氏**（マインドコントロール技術の先駆者、CIAに関与）への言及があることを指摘しています。Jose Delgado氏が事件当時San Diegoに住んでいたという同期性にも触れています。
- 文学作品（Washington Irvingの"Rip Van Winkle"など）が、小さな人々に連れ去られる、失われた時間といった超常現象や民話の要素を描いており、それが現在にも引き継がれていると論じています。
Damien氏の記憶: Robert Guffey氏は、Damien氏が事件の詳細を正確に覚えていないことが多いと述べています。これはトラウマや薬物の影響もあるが、元々記憶が曖昧な傾向があったとしています。Robert Guffey氏は、自身が取った詳細なメモや録音が、出来事の事実関係を確認する上で非常に重要だったと強調しています。

書籍やブログへの情報

"Cameo"はAmazonでは高値で転売されており、出版社ORBOOKS.comから18ドル（ペーパーバック版）、10ドル（Eブック版）で購入可能であると案内しています。
その他の著書**"Until Last Dog Dies"**, "Spies and Saucers", **"Cryptoscatology"**はAmazonでも適切な価格で購入できると述べています。
Robert Guffey氏のブログはcryptoscatology.comです。自身もGang Stalkingや類似の体験をしている人からの連絡を受け付けています。

この整理は、提供された文字起こしの中で話されている内容に基づいています。

話者の語った主な出来事を時系列で整理して。

システムは回答できませんでした。

ソースの一つ、「英文文字起こし 1of3.txt」だけを対象にして（他のソースはとりあえず無視して）、主な出来事を時系列に整理して。

はい、承知いたしました。提供されたソース「英文文字起こし 1of3.txt」のみに基づき、主な出来事を時系列で整理します。

以下は、Robert Guffey氏が語る出来事の主要な流れです。

高校時代 Robert Guffey氏が16歳の誕生日にDamien氏（書籍ではDionという仮名を使用）と出会います。
1990年代後半 Robert Guffey氏がWalter Boart氏と出会い、彼の著書『Operation Mind Control』を読み、マインドコントロールとその周辺分野について詳しくなります。
1997年 Robert Guffey氏がマインドコントロールに関する記事「Honey, did you leave your brain back at Langley again?」を『Paranoia Magazine』に寄稿します。これは彼の最初のノンフィクション本『Cryptoscatology』にも収録されています。
2003年夏 Damien氏の身に奇妙な出来事が始まります。San DiegoのPacific Beachにある彼の家（出入り自由なパーティーハウス）に、友人を介してLee（後に本名がDoyleと判明）という若者が泊まり始めます。
ある夜、パーティー中にLeeがノートPCを取り出すと、画面にDoD（国防総省）のシンボルが表示されます。Damien氏はこれが盗品だと気づき、Leeにすぐに出て行くように言います。
Leeが去った数分後、NCISの特別捜査官Lita Johnson（仮名）と他の2名がDamien氏の家を訪れ、家宅捜索を求めます。Damien氏は令状がないことを理由に捜索を拒否し、彼らを追い返します。
すぐにNCISとSan Diego市警が戻ってきますが、互いに連携しているようには見えません。彼らはLee（本名Doyle、Camp PendletonからAWOLした兵士であり、ノートPC、銃、暗視ゴーグルなどを盗んでいた）とDamien氏が共謀して軍事装備品をアルカイダに売ろうとしていると疑います。Damien氏はLeeを知らないと訴えますが、聞き入れられません。
当局によるDamien氏へのハラスメントが始まります。最初は比較的些細なもの（アパートの外に車を停めてヘッドライトを窓に照射する、深夜に大音量でカーラジオを流すなど）です。
Damien氏がストーカー行為を受けているとRobert Guffey氏に相談します。Robert氏は彼に尾行している車の写真を撮るように勧めます。
Damien氏が送ってきたナンバープレートのリストをRobert氏が友人に調べてもらうと、すべて「非実在」として返ってきます。Robert氏はこのことから、これらの車両が政府のものであり、Damien氏が被害妄想に陥っているのではないことを確信します。
ハラスメントは悪化し、肉眼では見えない「アウラ」や「ドット」のようなものが空間に見えたり、アパートの部屋が広くなったり狭くなったりする「偽の空間現象」が起きたりします。この現象はDamien氏の友人にも目撃されています。
電話中に背景音が突然消えるという「騒音キャンセル」現象も発生します。
アパート内で「ポルターガイスト」のような現象（物が飛び回る、装飾品が割れる）も起きます。Robert氏は電話越しにこの音を聞いており、普段は物怖じしないDamien氏がひどく怖がっている様子だったと述べます。
窓の外の景色が超常的な風景（3つの月があるような「Boris Vallejoの絵のような」光景）に変化するという体験もします。これらの奇妙な現象の一部は、光学迷彩技術や騒音キャンセル技術で説明できる可能性があると示唆されます。
ハラスメント期間中、NCISのLita Johnsonは何度も現れてDamien氏に協力を求めます。Robert Guffey氏もLita Johnsonに電話をかけ、Damien氏の状況について尋ねますが、彼女は監視を認めつつも協力しないDamien氏を非難し、会話はうまくいきません。
ある時、Damien氏は家の外で自分について話しているハラスメント担当者に対して、台所で作った食べ物（スパゲッティ、ジェロ、ピーナッツバターなどを混ぜたもの）を投げつけるという「フードファイト」を起こします。
後にDamien氏がLita Johnsonと会った際、彼女はこの「フードファイト」について言及し、「皆で笑った」と述べ、これがDamien氏が監視・ハラスメントを受けていることを彼女が認めた唯一の瞬間となります。
Damien氏の健康状態が悪化し、血尿が出たり、口の中に金属のような味がしたりするようになります。Robert氏はこれが電磁波被曝の兆候だと考えます。
Robert Guffey氏は、Damien氏がSan Diegoを離れればハラスメントが止まるかもしれないと考え、彼がバンを購入できるよう、Western Unionを通じて内緒で送金します。Damien氏は盗聴を警戒し、電話ではパスワードを聞き取らず、Robert氏が公衆電話からヒントを叫ぶことでパスワードを伝えます。
Damien氏が資金を受け取り、バンを購入してSan Diegoを出発します。
Robert Guffey氏は、出来事の記録として、Damien氏やRichard Schoengerd氏との会話をテープ録音したり、Joan DeArcとの電話を録音したり、大量のノートを取ったりします。Damien氏も写真で記録を試みますが、後にPCが破壊され多くの記録が失われます。
2005年末から2006年初頭 Robert Guffey氏が、この出来事を基にしたフィクション小説を執筆します。この時点ではまだRichard Schonger氏に会っておらず、出来事が現実なのか、幻覚なのかという疑念が残る中で書かれています。
2006年 Robert Guffey氏がRichard Schonger氏にインタビューを行います。

これらの出来事は、Robert Guffey氏の著書『Cameo』にまとめられ、2015年に出版されます。

Me:

ソースの一つ、「英文文字起こし 2of3.txt」だけを対象にして（他のソースはとりあえず無視して）、主な出来事を時系列に整理して。

はい、承知いたしました。ソースの一つである「英文文字起こし 2of3.txt」のみを対象として、主な出来事を時系列に整理します。

Robert Guffey氏が語る、主にDamien氏に関連する出来事の主要な流れは以下の通りです。

2003年夏 Robert Guffey氏の友人であるDamien氏（書籍ではDion）の身に奇妙な出来事が始まります。
この頃、Damien氏は健康状態が悪化し、血尿が出たり、口の中に金属のような味がしたりしていました。Robert氏はこれを電磁波被曝の兆候だと考えます。彼はサンディエゴを出ればハラスメントが止まるかもしれないと考えます。
Damien氏がバンを購入するための資金をRobert Guffey氏が送金することを決めます。Robert氏はWestern Unionを通じて内緒で送金します。
Damien氏は盗聴を警戒し、電話でパスワードを聞き取ろうとしません。Robert氏は公衆電話からヒントを叫ぶことでパスワードを伝えます。
Damien氏は資金を受け取り、バンを購入します。
Damien氏はバンの荷物をまとめ、サンディエゴを出発します。
Damien氏は道中、小型の円盤状の物体（ドローン）に追跡されているとRobert Guffey氏に電話で報告します。これは2004年当時、まだドローンがあまり知られていなかった時期のことです。
Damien氏はサンディエゴからテキサスへ向かいます。
テキサスでDamien氏は息子と会います。息子はDamien氏にリハビリ施設に行くよう勧めます。
Damien氏はテキサスを離れます。
Damien氏はミネソタまで運転し、ある休憩所のトイレに立ち寄ります。
トイレで、見知らぬ男がDamien氏に懇願するような口調で「例のものを返してください」と話しかけます。これが、Damien氏が監視・追跡を受けていることを担当者が認めた数少ない瞬間のうちの一つとなります。
すぐに別の男が現れ、最初の男を引きずり出します。
Damien氏は再びバンに乗り、さらに運転します。
バンが道の脇で故障します。
地元の二人の男性（「いい人たち」と表現される）がDamien氏を拾い、自宅に泊めることを申し出ます。
Damien氏は彼らにこれまでの出来事の全てを話します。彼らは最初は非常に懐疑的でした。
彼らはRobert Guffey氏に電話をかけ、Damien氏の話が真実か尋ねます。Robert氏はDamien氏の話が真実であることを彼らに説明します。
電話中、彼らは小型の飛行物体が彼らの家の外にホバリングしているのを目撃し、衝撃を受けます。
Robert Guffey氏は彼らを説得し、Damien氏のバンにガソリンを入れて旅を続けられるよう助けてもらいます。彼らは最初はDamien氏に悪魔が憑依していると考え、お祓いをしようとしました。
バンに再び乗った後、間もなくDamien氏はカンザス州ウィノナという人口約100人の小さな町にたどり着きます。
Damien氏がウィノナに滞在している間、約3ヶ月間ハラスメントが止まります。Robert Guffey氏はこれを期待していました。
Damien氏はこの期間に気力を取り戻し、インターネットで自身が見た不可視化技術のようなものを探し始めます。
Damien氏は**Richard Schonger氏のウェブサイト「cameleo.net」**を発見します。ウェブサイトの内容が自身が経験した出来事と似ていると感じ、Robert Guffey氏に知らせます。
Robert Guffey氏はRichard Schonger氏にメールを送ります。
Robert Guffey氏はRichard Schonger氏と会う約束を取り付けます。
Robert Guffey氏はDamien氏にサンディエゴから来るように伝えます。
Damien氏はRichard Schonger氏との面会のために駆けつけます（おそらくロングビーチへ）。
Robert Guffey氏とDamien氏はRichard Schonger氏を迎えに行きます。
彼らはRichard Schonger氏を連れて昼食をとり、その後Robert Guffey氏の大学のオフィスへ行きます。
Richard Schonger氏は自身の極秘プロジェクト（Project Camellia）と、その技術（不可視化、偽の空間現象、心理戦への応用など）について詳しく語ります。彼は過去にSAICや海軍の職員が彼の研究所を訪れたことに言及します。
Damien氏はRichard Schonger氏に自身の経験を語ります。
Richard Schonger氏は、Damien氏が語った特定の奇妙な現象（動いている鏡の中に見えた不可視の人物の姿、空間に見える「アウラ」や「ドット」）が自身の技術が不完全な状態で見られるものと一致することを認めます。これにより、Robert Guffey氏はDamien氏の経験が現実であったことを確信します。

これらの出来事が、Robert Guffey氏がDamien氏の身に起こったことの現実性を確信するまでの主要な流れを構成しています。

Me:

ソースの一つ、「英文文字起こし 3of3.txt」だけを対象にして（他のソースはとりあえず無視して）、主な出来事を時系列に整理して。

承知いたしました。ソースの一つである「英文文字起こし 3of3.txt」のみを対象として、主な出来事を時系列に整理します。

以下は、Robert Guffey氏が語る内容に基づいた、「英文文字起こし 3of3.txt」で言及されている主な出来事の時系列整理です。

Damien氏がカンザス州ウィノナ（Winona）に到着。
- 人口約100人のこの小さな町で、約3ヶ月間ハラスメントが止まります。Robert Guffey氏はこの停止を期待していました。
- この期間に、Damien氏は気力を取り戻し、インターネットで自身が見た不可視化技術のようなものを探し始めます。
Damien氏がRichard Schonger氏のウェブサイト「cameleo.net」を発見します。ウェブサイトの内容が自身が経験した出来事と似ていると感じ、Robert Guffey氏に知らせます。
Robert Guffey氏はRichard Schonger氏にメールを送り、面会する約束を取り付けます。
Robert Guffey氏はDamien氏に、Richard Schonger氏との面会のためにサンディエゴから来るように伝えます。
Robert Guffey氏、Damien氏、Richard Schonger氏が面会します（場所はおそらくロングビーチ）。
- Richard Schonger氏は自身の極秘プロジェクト（Project Camellia）と、その技術（不可視化、偽の空間現象、心理戦への応用など）について詳しく語ります。彼は過去にSAICや海軍の職員が彼の研究所を訪れたことに言及します。
- Damien氏はRichard Schonger氏に自身の経験を語ります。
- Richard Schonger氏は、Damien氏が語った特定の奇妙な現象（動いている鏡の中に見えた不可視の人物の姿、空間に見える「アウラ」や「ドット」）が自身の技術が不完全な状態で見られるものと一致することを認めます。これにより、Robert Guffey氏はDamien氏の経験が現実であったことを確信します。
（時期不明 - Damien氏の経験の後、Robert Guffey氏のロングビーチの自宅での出来事として語られています） Robert Guffey氏が、自身の窓の向かいに駐車しているバンに乗った2人の若者（監視していると思われる）に対し、「The management」と書いたメモをバンのワイパーに挟みます。
- 若者たちはメモを見つけて、互いに殴り合いを始めます。
- 彼らはその後バンに乗って立ち去り、二度と見かけられなくなります。
（時期不明 - Damien氏の経験の後、Robert Guffey氏のロングビーチの自宅での出来事として語られています） Robert Guffey氏が、ゴミ箱を漁る人物や、自宅前で立ち小便を繰り返す若者を目撃します。Robert Guffey氏はこれらを自身への「妨害的な出来事（obstructive incidents）」と認識しています。
（時期不明 - Damien氏の経験の後、Robert Guffey氏のロングビーチにいた頃） Robert Guffey氏が、友人Sharonとその連れの男性と一緒に奇妙な昼食を経験します。男性はRobert Guffey氏に陰謀論的な話題（『Behold the Pale Horse』、イルミナティ、シオン賢者の議定書）について繰り返し質問し、Robert Guffey氏はこの男性を政府のエージェントだと疑います。
（約2008年頃） Robert Guffey氏がDamien氏にストレージにある彼の物についてメールで知らせた後、Robert氏のアパート下の共有ガレージが荒らされます。高価な電子機器や自転車は盗まれず、Damien氏の物が狙われた可能性が示唆されます。侵入者がRobert氏のメールの「ストレージ」をこのガレージだと誤解したのではないかとRobert氏は推測しています。
（書籍『Cameo』出版前、おそらく2015年より前） Robert Guffey氏が書籍『Cameo』の完成した原稿を友人に預けたところ、友人の車内から原稿と友人のジャーナルが盗まれます。車に侵入された形跡はありませんでした。
（書籍『Cameo』出版前、おそらく2015年より前） Robert Guffey氏の友人Melanieが死去します。Robert Guffey氏は、彼女が書籍『Cameo』を読むことを期待していました。
（インタビューが行われた「last summer」） Robert Guffey氏が自宅敷地内で、電子的なカッコウの音を聞き、その後、見えない歪んだ泡状の物体を目撃します。

上記は、「英文文字起こし 3of3.txt」内で語られている主要な出来事を、可能な限り時系列に沿って整理したものです。Robert Guffey氏自身の体験や、彼が間接的に関わった出来事が中心となっています。

英文文字起こし

And this month's Where Did The Road Go? is sponsored by Super Inframan, Alison Cook, and Eric Irvin. Thank you all so very much for your incredible support. Transmission start. Welcome to Where Did The Road Go? Join us as we wander off the path and explore lost history, consciousness, the paranormal, unexplained mysteries, alternative thought, and much more. We are present on the web at wheredidtheroadgo.com. Now, here is your host, Soraya. So, on the show I uploaded earlier this week, we talked about Robert Guffey and the Cameo stuff. (0:00:45)

And so I went back a couple of years to when I had that interview up, which was March of 2018. So, three years ago. Two-part interview with Robert Guffey. I've put it together here. So, if anyone wants to know the whole story there, this is it. I also highly recommend the book. It's a very, very interesting read. So, here you go. My interview from a few years back with Robert Guffey. All right, Robert, welcome to the show, finally. (0:01:14)

Thank you for having me on. And your book is Cameo, A Strange But True Story of Invisible Spies, Heroin Addiction, and Homeland Security. And when did this come out? The book was published in 2015. So, it's a couple years old at this point. Okay. And this is non-fiction? Absolutely non-fiction, though there are people who will try to tell you otherwise. Well, you know, you're a fiction writer. (0:01:50)

This is the thing. I'm looking at your bio, and you're a fiction writer, and you're into conspiracy culture. Yes, well, that's true. The book I just published this past November is called Until the Last Dog Dies, which is fiction, which is about a humor virus. It's a virus, a pandemic virus that affects the entire world, that affects only the humor centers of the brain. (0:02:14)

It doesn't kill you, but it sends the humor away. Oh, man. And it's told from the point of view of a stand-up comedian in L.A. And eventually, he comes down with the virus, and it starts affecting him as well. So, it has this speculative science-fictional element at the core of it. But it also emerges out of the cameo experiences as well, at least on a metaphorical level, about taking someone's imagination away, their sense of humor, their spirit, their soul away. (0:02:43)

And that's where the idea came from for Until the Last Dog Dies. But I think if you read that, which is a novel, and compare it to the way Cameo is written, I think that a reasonable person could tell that they're written very differently, and that the way I write fiction is different from the way that I wrote Cameo. Or my first book, Cryptoscatology, that's also nonfiction, and is very much different from my second book, which is called Spies and Saucers, which is a collection of novellas that all take place in the 1950s amidst the contactee culture at that time period. (0:03:22)

So, I have two books of nonfiction, two of fiction, and I think that they're written in very different styles. (0:03:31)

The approach is different. The stuff in Cameo, I don't think that anyone could come up with it. It's so peculiar that, in fact, that's one reason why I included long transcripts, conversations between me and my friend, who I call Dion in the book, but his real name is Damien. I include long conversations with him, and also a very long interview with Richard Schonger, a scientist, because I think you can read that and see that this is not dialogue that anyone would make up if you were writing a stage play or a screenplay. (0:04:09)

If I tried to edit it down as little as possible, that authenticity would be obvious to the reader. And I will say, this is actually a very hard book to put down. It kind of shows that you have that fictional writing ability, because there's a lot of books I'll read on this type of stuff that are very dry. And they're good books, but I could stop at the end of any chapter and be like, okay, I'll read the rest of that tomorrow. (0:04:37)

With this one, I'm going, I'll just read one more chapter. It's like reading a fiction book. I want to see what comes next. Well, that's a huge compliment, because one of the main things I wanted to accomplish with the book was to make it entertaining, because so often books are about conspiratorial subjects such as this. It can sort of seem like the eccentric guy on the park bench with the bullhorn yelling at you about the coming new world order. (0:05:07)

And it's easy to just walk right on past that guy. And so people don't like being preached at. They don't like being lectured at either. So my intent was, I'm going to tell this like a story. And the thing is, I spent many years trying not to think about any of this. Because of course, it all began in 2003 and spilled over into 2004 and even past that. (0:05:36)

I think we interviewed Richard Schonger, which we'll get to later, in 2006. So theoretically, I could have written the book back in 2006 or 2007, but I was really just trying not to think about it. And I really didn't know how to approach the story anyway, because it seemed so complicated and bizarre. I didn't even really know where to begin. But I mentioned at the end of the book that I was teaching a literature science fiction class at CSU Long Beach. And it just so happened that after class one day, a student came up to me and said, Can you think of an idea, a science fictional idea that people think of as science fiction, but it really isn't? (0:06:18)

And immediately I thought of invisibility, which plays a role in this story. And I began telling him the story just extemporaneously. And I stood there in the hallway telling him the story. It took about 40 minutes or something. (0:06:33)

And his jaw was hanging. And he said, Professor, please, our next class period, tell that story again to the entire class. I said, OK. And so the next class period, he asked me to tell the story, and I did. And oddly enough, it just so happened that there was a student in my class who was part of the ROTC. He would come to class every day in full military uniform. He was always very polite. (0:07:00)

He called me, sir, at the beginning of each sentence. And everyone in the class, I told them the story. And everyone in the class was just sitting there thinking, they looked like they had blank stares on their faces. And then this guy in the ROTC, he raises his hand. He says, Sir, everything that you've just said overlaps with things that I've heard in my training. I can't say exactly what that is, of course, because we were sworn to secrecy. (0:07:23)

But the things that you said correlate very precisely with what I heard. And then everyone sort of became less skeptical at that point. But right after that class period, I left the classroom, and I crouched down the hallway, and I pulled a notebook out of my bag. And bullet points wrote down everything I had said and the order I said it in as a kind of outline. (0:07:45)

And it took up like two full sides of two pages, and that became the outline for the book. Somehow, talking it out made me realize, oh, that's how to tell the story. Just take it from the top, chronologically, and barrel right through it. And fortunately, I had a lot of notes from that time period. I just, that's the kind of person I am. (0:08:05)

I take a lot of notes. So I had a lot of notes. I had tape recordings of me talking to Damien, talking to Richard Schoengerd, me telling the story to other people on the phone. I had gone out of my way to record some of my own telephone conversations, just to have all the facts down. Because, of course, as time goes on, you forget certain things. (0:08:28)

And I'm very glad I did that, because I had that stuff to draw upon in order to write the book. Nice. How did you... and you actually did write a fictional version of this story, too, that you tried to get published. Oh, yes. In fact, it's kind of interesting. I haven't looked at that in a long time. But it probably would be interesting to read it now, after having written Camellio. Because that book, that novel, was written in, I think, 2006. Right before. (0:09:11)

It was 2005, beginning of 2006. Right before I met Richard Schoengerd. Who is the figure who confirms everything that Damien had been telling me up to that point. And so, since it was written before I met Richard, there was still a kind of doubt in my mind. (0:09:24)

Whether or not... was this all real? Was this a product of hallucination? You don't really want to believe that this could be happening. So I tried to go out of my way to believe that it wasn't, that there was a slight possibility that it wasn't true. And so I actually wrote that novel right before meeting Richard. So if you read that book, which is not published, and I haven't even really looked at it in a long time, it's written in such a way where what's happening to the characters, the characters themselves are not sure if this is really happening or not. (0:10:03)

So it would be kind of interesting as an artifact to read that, because that's kind of where my head was at before I sat down with Damien and spoke to Richard at great length about his technology. Which was stolen and used against my friend Damien. How did you get interested in conspiracy culture to begin with? That's interesting because I suspect that a lot of people who are targeted, a lot of them have a problem with even maintaining relationships with the people they used to know before all this began. (0:10:41)

Because family members abandoned them, spouses abandoned them, children, friends. Because they think that they've gone crazy, they've gone nuts. In this particular instance, the reason I was able to write the book is because I already had somewhat of a background in this kind of material. Because I was friends with Walter Boart. Walter Boart wrote the book Operation Mind Control back, which was published in 1977. That was the first book about the mind control operations, the MKUltra. That was the first book that really went into detail about how invasive these experiments had been. (0:11:28)

And not only that, Walter went out of his way to point out that these weren't just experiments. Hence the title of the book, Operation Mind Control. It was operational. It wasn't just experiments. We tested LSD on some of our own people and it got out of control and Frank Olson jumped out of a window and accidentally killed himself. It went beyond that to say, no, this is operational. (0:11:54)

It was operational in Vietnam. In fact, that's how Walter started investigating it himself. He had a cousin who had gone to Vietnam and he came back with what Walter described as, quote, cardboard memories, unquote. Meaning that they had taken his cousin and they had taken out his memories, turned him into a programmed assassin, just like the Manchurian candidate. He'd killed a bunch of people, a remote control killer, and then sent them back home. (0:12:23)

And the only way to put his memories back in were by showing him photographs of what his childhood had been like. But he had no, there was no sensory details connected to those images. So, hence Walter Boer described it as cardboard memories. He could see still images in his mind of what he looked like as a child or what the house looked like that he grew up in. (0:12:45)

But he couldn't remember anything beyond that. (0:12:47)

So he was really like a brain-dead case. And Walter was so haunted by this that he began investigating it, discovering it had happened to many, many other people. And out of that grew Operation Mind Control. And then I met Walter in the late 90s and read his book. And so I was very familiar with mind control and that whole milieu. And I had read The Control of Candy Jones, which Candy Jones claimed that she was also a hypnoprogrammed agent for the U.S. military. (0:13:30)

And also books like The Transformation of America by Kathy O'Brien, which oddly enough I remember sharing with Damien. And Damien critiquing it, thinking it was a little too way out there. I remember Damien saying, this reads like porn for right-wingers. It was so detailed in Kathy O'Brien's alleged sexual encounters with Hillary Clinton, etc., that he said it reads like pornography for right-wingers. That right-wingers can read this and be disgusted at it and get turned on at the same time. (0:14:06)

That was Damien's critique of it, which there might be some validity to that. So he was actually quite skeptical of any conspiracy theory that was a little too outlandish. In retrospect, if you go back and read Kathy O'Brien's book, it's like, well, a lot of things that seemed outlandish actually turned out to be true later on. So I don't know. And so maybe we can get into that a little bit later. (0:14:33)

So it's kind of ironic that Damien was a little bit skeptical about certain conspiracy theories and then ended up being in the middle of one. But as a result of my background with Walter Bohart, I was kind of willing to accept the initial premise of what he was telling me. So even though I knew about mind control, I was not at all familiar with this whole gang-stalking phenomenon. (0:14:55)

That was something that was totally new to me. I'd never heard anything about that. Well, let's start at the beginning with Damien and how that all started out. And you've known him since high school. Yes, yes. We met on my 16th birthday. Oh, and he does have a bit of a problem with drugs, it seems. Yes, definitely. And again, that's another reason why someone like Damien wouldn't be believed. (0:15:27)

Because if you're a drug addict, immediately you would just assume, oh, well, they're just hallucinating. People who aren't experienced with drugs tend to think that all drugs are exactly the same. Damien was a heroin addict. That was his main thing, which generally doesn't cause wild-ish psychoactive hallucinations. So in Damien's case, he was living in the Pacific Beach area of San Diego around this time, 2003. It was the summer of 2003, and his house was kind of a party house, people coming in and out all the time. (0:16:08)

And he, through a friend, met this kid who needed a place to stay. And so Damien was like, what the hell? Sure, you can crash on my couch or whatever. (0:16:19)

And the guy's name was Lee, or at least that's what he said his name was. And one night, Damien's having this party. There's people doing all sorts of drugs. And Lee pulls out this laptop computer and turns it on, and a DoD symbol flashes on the screen. And at that moment, Damien said, OK, wait a minute. Hold on here. Pack up your stuff and just get the hell out. (0:16:48)

Because he immediately recognized that this was stolen property, which in fact it was. It turned out that Lee had gone AWOL from Camp Pendleton and had taken with him a DoD laptop computer, a 9mm Iraqi gun that was taken off the body of a dead Iraqi general, 23 pairs of high-tech night-vision goggles, and apparently an entire truck. And some people will criticize the story and say that's impossible. (0:17:18)

There's no way that a kid could have gone AWOL from Camp Pendleton and taken all that stuff. I don't know what to tell you, man. That's what he did, and he took all that stuff. But also, if you go back on YouTube, just punch in, like, tank and San Diego, you'll see that about a few years before all of this, a guy living in the same exact area that Damien was living in, Pacific Beach, went, quote, crazy, unquote, stole a tank from an armory and drove it right down the middle of San Diego and ended up getting stuck on the freeway. (0:17:53)

The cops broke through the top of the tank and just shot him where he was sitting. And apparently the guy wanted to go to City Hall to make a statement about something. And as I say in the book, I suspect that he also was being tortured with this technology. So that guy managed to steal a whole tank. I'm not that skeptical that the guy could steal night vision goggles. (0:18:15)

So he turns on the laptop computer, the DOD symbol flashes on, Damien tells him to get the hell out. The kid says, oh, don't worry about this. They can't track this stuff. Then within minutes, there's a knock at the door. Damien opens it and there's a woman standing there. She identifies herself, a special agent, Lita Johnson of the NCIS. That's a made up name. (0:18:42)

I have her real name and contact information. She's there with two other goons and they say they want to search the apartment. And Damien grew up in the house of a narcotics cop, which is ironic since he later became a heroin addict. So he was very familiar with his rights as a U.S. citizen. And he said, well, do you have a warrant? She said, no, but I can come back with one very quickly. He said, well, come back when you have a warrant. (0:19:11)

And he slams the door in her face, tells everyone who's busy doing drugs right there in front of him, pick up your stuff and go out the back door. And they all immediately throw their stuff onto the floor and go out the back door. (0:19:25)

Of course. When they saw that there was heat in the area. And within minutes, a very short period of time, the NCIS comes back, as does the San Diego Police Department. They show up too on the scene, though, according to Damien, it seemed like they weren't working together. They're really like bumping into each other. Keystone cop style. Didn't seem to be working with each other. (0:19:48)

And even though there's drugs all over the place, they didn't seem to care about that at all. What this particular NCIS agent wanted were these night vision goggles. That was of the utmost importance. And they arrest this kid, Lee, and they arrest Damien. They take both of them down to the San Diego jail and proceed to give Damien the Abu Ghraib treatment for about a week. (0:20:13)

Damien, they tell him that this kid Lee, that his name is not Lee, his name is Doyle. They think that Damien is somehow involved in the sale of this military equipment, as if Damien and this kid were in league with each other to sell this equipment to Al-Qaeda. And Damien's trying to tell them, I don't even know the guy. (0:20:41)

I didn't know his name was Doyle. And he was just sleeping on my couch. But they couldn't accept that. I mean, there's huge Kafka-esque qualities to this story. And Damien's trying to convince them, no, he's just a friend of a friend. I don't know anything about this. They wanted him to cooperate, and Damien's not the most cooperative person on the planet in the first place. (0:21:06)

So I could see how that probably went south very quickly. He's been in and out of prison his entire life, and it's ingrained in him not to snitch. That's the worst possible thing you can do. So there was nothing he was going to say. Even if he did know anything about it, he wouldn't have cooperated. Eventually, though, after about a week, they let Damien go. (0:21:32)

Now, around this time, I was trying to call him. When the day that he was arrested, I had tried to call him, and no one answered the phone. I left a message, and he didn't call back the next day or the next day. And after a few days, I began to wonder what had happened, because he usually called me back. And so after seven days, he finally calls back, and he tells me this insane story that he'd been arrested and all of this. (0:21:56)

We both assume that that's the end of the story. They realize Damien didn't have anything to do with it, and they just let him go, and that's the end of it. A couple days later, he calls me back to tell me that there are just hordes of jarheads, military-looking dudes, following him around the city. And the way he described it at first was that there was like a dozen of these guys following him around, and being very obvious about it. (0:22:23)

A parade of people who would follow him into 7-Eleven, then follow him out again. (0:22:27)

He'd go to the Mexican restaurant down the street. They would sit at all the tables around him and stare at him. And then he'd go home, and they'd park in the parking lot outside the apartment building and just shine their headlights through his window. They'd blare the car radio at 3.30am right outside his apartment. And it started with really sort of, quote, mundane, unquote, harassment like that. (0:22:54)

When he first started telling me about it, I wondered myself, is this some sort of myth-induced paranoia? Which is certainly possible. People who take myth have paranoia, and they think that people are following them. So I wondered if maybe, even though he'd never exhibited any signs like that before this moment, maybe this is the breaking point. So I asked him, I said, why don't you take photographs of the people who are following you? (0:23:23)

And you say there are these cars following you around, they're parked outside your apartment. Take photographs and send them to me. So he did that. And I wrote all the license plate numbers down and sent the list to a friend of mine up in Seattle who worked for the DMV. He ran all the numbers through the system, and all of them came back as non-existent. Which didn't make any sense to me because I knew they existed. (0:23:48)

And if Damien was being paranoid, they would come up as real vehicles. People living in San Diego. Sure, yeah. But they didn't come up at all. They were officially non-existent. And the only way that could be is if they were government vehicles. So that was like the first indication that that list of license plate numbers is in the book. That was the first indication to me that, okay, no, he's not being paranoid. (0:24:15)

Then, as the thing progresses, he starts telling me about how their harassment is getting worse and worse. And what would happen is, this would be a continuous thing. And this woman, this NCIS woman, Lita Johnson, all the people who are parked outside his house and harass him, they would suddenly pull away. And then Lita Johnson comes up, goes up to the door, knocks on the door, and says, Have you changed your mind? Are you willing to cooperate now and tell us where these night vision goggles are? (0:24:53)

And Damien would say, I can't do that because I don't know where they are. And then she would say, well, if you change your mind, call my number. And she gives him her card. She and her two goons get back in the car and drive away. Then all the cars come back and they start turning on the car radio again, shining the lights through the window, and all the harassment starts up all over again. (0:25:15)

And it was very complicated. I mean, this was what they call, at the time, the term gang stalking didn't even exist. In 2003, people were calling it, quote, street theater because of the way that it's almost a performance. (0:25:32)

Two people will be walking behind you, talking about you, saying private details about your life as if you're not there. Then you'll get on the bus and there's two people on the bus and they continue the conversation or repeat the words that you heard an hour before. And so, he's telling me all this. By the way, I should point out that in this area, in Pacific Beach, his apartment is right next to a corporation. (0:25:59)

At that time, it's since moved. At that time, it was a corporation called Science Applications International Corporation, SAIC, that was within pretty much walking distance of his apartment on Garnett Avenue. There was another corporation called ATC, American Technology Corporation. Both of these corporations specialize in creating exotic weaponry, noise cancellation weaponry, quote, non-lethal weapons. So, Damien, the harassment gets more and more bizarre to the point where he'll be lying in bed and a silhouette of a hand holding a gun would appear on the wall above his head and then tilt downward so that the silhouette of the gun was pointing at his head. (0:26:49)

He saw this amorphous mass of black energy crawl across the carpet, crawled into his leather jacket that was laying on the carpet, and then the leather jacket started moving. Oddly enough, I've spoken to a lot of people who were supposedly alien abductees who've reported similar phenomenon, that crawling black energy thing. Then he tells me that there's people in the house who he cannot see who are interacting with him, pushing him over, talking to him. (0:27:32)

This, again, sounds like classic schizophrenia. At one point, he opened the bathroom mirror in the medicine cabinet, and as the mirror was in motion, he could see briefly the outline of a person behind him, a little person. Occasionally, the technology would break down and he would see an outline of a very small person. Kind of like auras. Some people who suffer from migraine headaches report seeing these auras in the air. (0:28:07)

That's kind of like what they look like, but like the outline of a small person. Dots in the air. Then, Lita Johnson would call again. Have you changed your mind? Oh, no, you haven't changed your mind yet? Then it would start all over again. At one point, I asked Damien, I said, why don't you give me her phone number? She had given it to him. She said, call me when you've changed your mind. (0:28:35)

I said, give me the phone number. Half because I just wanted to make sure that she was real. I called her. She answered the phone. She identified herself. I told her who I was. She seemed really put off that I was calling her and asking. She seemed really surprised that anyone was calling her to talk about this. And I said, well, my friend claims that he's being followed. (0:29:04)

And I got a series of CYA answers, like listening to Hillary Clinton speak. Just a lot of legalese, going out of your way, verbal acrobatics to avoid actually answering the question. (0:29:22)

So, for example, when I said, is my friend being followed? She goes, no one in my agency is currently following your friend. I'm sure that that's a true statement. And then she would say, I said, well, then is it okay for Damien to leave town? Because I don't want him to do anything illegal. And then she said, I wouldn't advise that. And I go, well, if you're not interested in him, and there's no case against him, why would you advise that he not leave town? (0:30:02)

She goes, well, it just might make things difficult later on. And she was very annoyed that I called. She implied that Damien was crazy. The conversation didn't end well. The whole transcript of that conversation is also in the book. Then there was the case of the food fight, where Damien was in his kitchen making lunch. And there's two jarheads right outside his window talking to each other about Damien. So Damien starts putting in like spaghetti and pasta. (0:30:39)

And then he just starts throwing in like baking soda and Jell-O and peanut butter. And he's mixing it all together, pudding. He mixes it all together in this weird sticky goo. And then runs outside and throws the pot of goo over the fence. And it hits both of these jarhead guys on the head. And they're covered in this weird goo. And they just go running off into the parking lot of the Vons that was next door. (0:31:02)

Which later on actually led to the only moment where Leta Johnson actually admitted that they were watching him. Because Damien got it into his head that it would be a really good idea to contact Leta. And ask her if they could meet for lunch. Because he wanted to... he said to me, I'm going to offer my services. That I can maybe help track down the goggles. (0:31:28)

And then they'll stop harassing me. And I said, that's insane. They're just going to think that you've had them all along. And you've been holding out on them this whole time. No, no, no, no, this will be good. It will show them my good faith. So he does meet with them. And that meeting didn't go well at all. Leta Johnson was there at a bagel shop on Granite Avenue with her superior. (0:31:53)

That's how he showed you how serious they took this. And Damien at one point just said, listen, I just want to stop having food fights with the feds. I don't want that to happen anymore. And Leta Johnson smiles in spite of herself and said, yes, that made us all laugh. That was the only time where the curtain was pulled aside. And she actually admitted that he was being stalked, harassed, and surveilled. (0:32:23)

There's also an interesting aspect to that conversation that there's a kind of Candide-like quality to Damien, where sometimes he's not aware. There's a kind of oddly innocent quality about him, even though he's been in and out of jail. (0:32:39)

And so there's a kind of sometimes a bit of an unawareness. And so there's one point where Leta Johnson is telling him how great an area of Pacific Beach was when she was a little girl. And that it really needs to be cleaned up. And the scumbags, you know, we need to do something about all these scumbags in San Diego, in our town. (0:33:02)

And Damien is not getting that she's talking about him. And he's agreeing with her. It's like, oh, yeah, I know what you mean. They annoy me so much. I can just imagine her blood pressure rising as she's not getting that she's insulting him. Right. And so that conversation didn't go well at all. In fact, it ended with her superior just turning red and like yelling at Damien for not thanking him for buying him the orange juice and the bagel, which I guess was, you know, that was a work expense for that day. (0:33:39)

So eventually it got so bad that this extended from summer of 2003 all the way into about January, February 2004. By the beginning of 2004, Damien's lost weight. He's urinating blood. He has a metallic taste in his mouth, which I knew from Walter, from Walter Boart, that that was a sign of electromagnetic radiation poisoning. So I and around this time, Damien runs into this beachcomber who is selling a van for like seven hundred dollars or five hundred dollars, something like that. (0:34:19)

I can't remember. And and he Damien said that he wanted to buy it, but that someone stole his wallet and like all his money was gone. And so I, without even telling him, decide to wire him some money so that he can buy the van and get out, because I naively thought that if he just left town, it would all stop. Right. Which a lot of people think that. (0:34:44)

And so I don't know if you've ever sent someone money through Western Union, but you have to give a password that the other person, the receiver, will give to the clerk. And then that proves that they're the one who is supposed to receive the money. So the password I made up is pornographic in nature, so I can't say what it is. But I knew that it would serve an in-joke between me and Damien. Right. So I call Damien to give him the password and tell him I just wired him this money. (0:35:18)

So I do that, and Damien's surprised and grateful. And I say, well, let me give you the password. He goes, no, no, no, don't give me the password right now, because he's concerned that if I say it over the phone, because obviously they're listening to the phone calls, that someone will go and take the money in his place before he can get there. (0:35:36)

So he goes, let me pack everything up first. And then in a couple of hours, I'll call you back and you give me the password. (0:35:43)

Okay. So like two hours later, he calls back and I say, okay, the password is the phone goes dead. I call him back. The password is the phone goes dead. That happened like six, seven, eight times, you know. And then suddenly I realized something that was unique for when you're placing a clerk phone call. If you've ever placed a clerk phone call with someone, there's a moment where the operator is talking to the other person saying, will you accept the phone call, where you can both hear each other. (0:36:14)

And so I placed a clerk phone call to Damien. He picked up the phone. And while she was saying, will you accept the charges, I yelled out a hint as to what the password was. And I heard Damien laugh for half a second. So I knew he understood it. And then the phone went dead. So he was able to go over to the Western Union and pick up the money and get the van and he packed everything into the van and he takes off. (0:36:44)

Now, keep in mind, it's 2004. No one's talking about drones. There's no one shooting drones out of the sky over Dodger Stadium. Before we get to him leaving, let's go over some of the things, a couple of things I noticed when he was there. First of all, the people in his apartment he called invisible midgets. Yes, that was the charming phrase that he came up with, invisible midgets. (0:37:10)

And that became a kind of humorous running joke the entire time. We would talk about the invisible midgets who were following him. You made a good point, though, that if you're trying to keep someone invisible, having someone who's small and agile and stuff and get in and out of things easier would make more sense than a bigger person. Well, as we discover later on, since we know that this technology is actually being used by the military. (0:37:39)

Yes, if you want to get in and out of tight spaces really quick, this technology does not make you bulletproof. So it's good to have someone who's agile, who's small, who could get in and out of tight places really fast. And so it actually makes perfect sense that you would hire very small, athletic, agile people to wear this technology. There was also a thing about his apartment feeling bigger or smaller, and other people noticed this as well. (0:38:09)

Oh, yes, the fake space phenomenon. Damien would come home and he would notice that the apartment seemed to get bigger. He calls me one day, he says, my apartment is growing. If you've ever seen Doctor Who, you'll know that Doctor Who has a TARDIS, which is a spacecraft that's also a time machine. And when you go inside the TARDIS, it's much bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. (0:38:38)

It's exactly the same principle. And he would go inside and the room was either smaller or bigger. (0:38:45)

And it wasn't just him who would notice this. His friends would come over and say, is the room getting bigger? Later on, we'll discover that, in fact, the optical camouflage technology can, in fact, make that happen. Also, noise cancellation. I mentioned before that ATC, American Technology Corporation, which was based in that same area, was specializing in stuff like noise cancellation technology. One time I was on the phone with Damien. And as I was talking to him, you know, when you're talking on the phone with someone, there's some ambient noise you can hear in the background. (0:39:16)

You know, like cars going by or the TV in the background, the radio is on, whatever. All that just stopped all of a sudden. And then Damien says, all the noise is gone. And then very often things would happen that if you didn't know any better, you would think the house is haunted or that there were poltergeists in the house. Things start just flying around in the room. (0:39:43)

And as I said, Damien's been in jail. He's been homeless in D.C. He shared a prison. He was on the same cell block as Mike Tyson. So he's been around the block. He's not easily scared. He was crouched on the floor. You know, he sounded like an eight-year-old girl as these things were flying around the room and tchotchkes shattering on the shelf. And I heard that myself. I was on the phone with him when that happened. (0:40:12)

And he was scared, S-less. And so there was a whole panoply of odd phenomenon that was going on. Yeah, the other interesting one was his window, or one of his windows looked like it was a window to somewhere else, almost like a portal. Yeah, he opened the curtains and he looked out the window and instead of seeing the scene that he'd always seen, suddenly it was this sort of surreal science fictional landscape, like three moons in the sky. (0:40:45)

It looked like a Boris Vallejo painting. But then he opened the door and it just looked like the normal scene that he would always see. Again, this is also something that's possible with optical camouflage technology. Yeah, I mean, that one doesn't seem that hard to believe. Yeah. Now, one of the things, how did he relate this stuff to you? Did you take notes while you were talking to him? (0:41:12)

Yes, I took voluminous notes. And again, I recorded a lot of the conversations. And at the time I was in contact with Joan DeArc, who was the editor of Paranoia Magazine. And I had written a lot of articles for Paranoia Magazine, mostly involving mind control. Again, because of the connection with Walter. I wrote an article called, Honey, did you leave your brain back at Langley again? (0:41:40)

Which appeared in Paranoia in 1997. And that is, in fact, in my first book, Cryptoscatology. And I called Joan to tell her the whole story. And I didn't have the technology actually to record both ends of the phone conversation. (0:41:59)

So I just recorded me talking to her. And I'm so glad I did that, because I kept that recording. And so later on, when I decided that I should write a book about this, I went back to that recording and a lot of the details that I otherwise may have forgotten, like specific dates, specific times, specific names, little details like that, were there on the recording, which I made simultaneous with it happening. (0:42:29)

So yes, I tried to document it in many ways. And in fact, Damien was documenting it the entire time too. He was photographing a lot of things. And a couple of those photographs appear at the beginning of the book. Unfortunately, I was just speaking to Damien the other day on the phone. And I've known other people who have described when something takes over their body and makes them do something that they don't want to do. (0:43:05)

I have two friends who claim to be abductees and my lab experiencers. And they've had experiences where they're driving down the street. And this one particular woman I know, her foot just started going on the gas, going through a red light. And she didn't want to do that. And I know another friend who you may know of, Melinda Leslie, she had an experience where she woke up, she was getting ready in the morning, she grabbed her hairdryer, turned on the faucet and held the... plugged it into the wall and held the hairdryer under the running faucet. (0:43:44)

And she didn't want to be doing this. Obviously, you don't want to do that. And so, these things have happened to other people. Recently, Damien had an experience where he had a glass of milk. And he took it and poured it into the back of his computer. And he said that it's the strangest thing where your hand is doing something and your mind is telling you not to do it, but your hand is doing it anyway. (0:44:12)

And it destroyed everything in the computer that he had. Everything that he'd been photographing since 2003. So, the harassment is in fact ongoing. So, do those pictures not exist anywhere else? Not that I know of. Some of them. I have some of them, but a very small amount. Now, initially, they seemed to be referring to you as Mr. Big. But wouldn't it have been pretty easy for them to figure out who you were? (0:44:52)

That's not a direct quote. That was me imagining what they're thinking. Because they think that Damien's trying to sell this stuff, but the only person he's talking to is me. So, I meant that somewhat sarcastically, because obviously I'm not Mr. Big. And Damien's not talking to anyone else. So, who else is it that he's supposedly selling this equipment to? He's obviously not in contact with foreign-sounding gentlemen in the Middle East. So, who is it that they think he's selling this stuff to? (0:45:29)

I really think that at a certain point it began with the night vision goggles and then wanting to get those goggles back. (0:45:37)

But I think eventually what it became was, and it can be as simple as this, that Damien just pissed somebody off. During that week's time when he was in the jail, and he was interacting with them, and I can easily see this happening, of him pissing them off because he wasn't cooperating. And I already quoted you, quoted Lita Johnson, talking about how she wanted to, quote, clean up the neighborhood in Pacific Beach. And they just decided, this is the perfect guy. (0:46:11)

First of all, he's not cooperating, so we think he's an SOB. B, he's a drug addict and a degenerate. And C, we need someone to test this stuff out on. I remember talking to someone at the time, and she said, she was a fellow professor at CSU Long Beach, she said to me, if they had equipment like this and they wanted to test it out, why can't they just test it out on Camp Pendleton? (0:46:34)

Why would they have to pick a civilian to test it out on? And I immediately said, well, because you need to test this out in an environment that is unpredictable, on someone who doesn't expect any of this, so you can see where the weaknesses are. Because you want to be able to pinpoint the weaknesses of this technology before you utilize it in a real-life battle situation. (0:46:57)

You know, better for Damien to notice you in the bathroom mirror than for some guy, for the enemy with a gun, to notice you in the bathroom mirror. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And the U.S. has a history of doing things like that anyway. I mean, it's not unheard of. Oh, certainly not. No, and then Walter does an excellent job of documenting all that in Operation Mind Control. Yeah. There was also some... you talk about sonic weapons that were probably being used on him as well. (0:47:28)

Yeah, well, you know, what John Alexander likes to call non-lethal weapons. SAIC, which is based in Pacific Beach, in fact, it was located right across the street from the Whaley House, W-H-A-L-E-Y, Whaley House, which is notorious amongst paranormal investigators for being the most haunted place in California. Yep, yep. It's in the Old Town district of San Diego, and SAIC at that point was located just right across the street, which I find interesting. (0:48:07)

I'm not suggesting that SAIC was creating paranormal phenomenon back in 1899, when supposedly hauntings started, but it is interesting. One wonders if these people don't pick certain geographical locations because perhaps they're a nexus for this kind of odd phenomenon. When I was on Coast to Coast with George Knapp, I mentioned, because I read The Hunt for the Skinwalker, George Knapp's book about the ranch, that big old thing. (0:48:40)

And there were a lot of parallels between his book and community. If you read them back to back, you'll see the parallels. And I suggested to him that it makes perfect sense that if you're going to experiment with technology like this, why not pick an area that already has a reputation for being, quote, haunted, unquote. (0:49:02)

Yeah. So, if something odd happens, or someone sees something odd, you just say, oh, that's the Skinwalker Ranch. It's been haunted for a hundred years. Oh, that's the Whaley House. Yeah, everyone knows that place is weird. So, in other words, there can be two things going on at the same time. So SAIC was located in that location at that time, not far from where Damien was living. (0:49:24)

It has since moved, and SAIC has split into two different corporations, one called Leidos, L-E-I-D-O-S, and the other has maintained the name SAIC. The main bulk of the corporation moved to Virginia, which is a good place for it, right next to the Central Intelligence Agency. Right. And that's the current status of SAIC. By the way, just a footnote about SAIC. They had an office on Camp Pendleton, which I mentioned in the book. (0:49:55)

But also, when I was talking to Melinda Leslie about all this, I mentioned before she claims to be an apathy, and is a MyLab experiencer, meaning she's been abducted by military people after having her alien abductions. When I was having lunch with her and telling her this whole story, everything I'm telling you, before I said, I go, there was a corporation in San Diego. That's as far as I got. (0:50:21)

And Melinda interrupts me and says, Oh, SAIC? That's not something that most people know. SAIC is not floating at the top of most people's consciousness on a daily basis. And she just busts out with, Oh, SAIC. And I said, How did you know that? And she said, Oh, well, in the investigations I've done, she's spoken to dozens and dozens and dozens of MyLab experiencers, and a lot of them have some sort of odd connection to SAIC. So that's food for thought and grounds for further research. (0:50:59)

Yeah, yeah. What do you think, just because it's related and it keeps popping up with this thing in Cuba that seems like it could have been a sonic attack. Any thoughts on that? Oh, yeah, yeah. In fact, I have a blog, cryptoeschatology.com, and I keep posting updates on that. Yes, I mean, that seems like a replay of situations that occurred back in the 1980s, where that technology was used on various people. (0:51:31)

It certainly seems like a reoccurrence. It seems like the same sort of technology that was being used on Damien. Who was using it and what was the purpose of it? I have no idea, but it certainly sounds like it's the same technology. And that was going to be my next question. What would be the motivation behind something like that in Cuba? Who knows? (0:51:57)

It could be something as simple as what I've just said. If you're not cooperating, and you have access to this technology, there's a lot of evil people out there. If they have access to this technology... The way I describe it in the book, to try to get it down on a mundane level, that people can wrap their minds around it, is imagine you've just cut off Special Agent Lita Johnson on the freeway, and instead of going into road rage, she writes your license plate number down, and suddenly you're on, quote, the list. (0:52:32)

Now that sounds like a paranoid, the list, what do you mean? (0:52:35)

That sounds pretty paranoid. But actually, it's not really paranoid, because when you take into account the black budget, the ballooning black budget, that occurred right after 9-11, you have a situation where all these intelligence agencies have been given all this money to prevent another 9-11. And so, now you need to spend this money. And the way I bring this down to a prosaic level in the book is I explain that my first teaching job was I was an English tutor at El Camino Community College in Torrance. I had a tutoring job. (0:53:15)

And on the first day, I went into the room where I was supposed to teach or tutor, whoever came in, and there were these math tutors sitting there. And they weren't doing anything. They were just playing games, flipping through their notebook, whatever. And after about a half hour, I turned to them and I said, what are we supposed to be doing? We're not doing anything. (0:53:37)

And they just laughed and said, oh, no, you don't understand. Every year, the English department here gets a certain amount of money and they have to spend it by the end of the year. And if they don't spend it, then they have to send the money back. Well, they don't want to do that, so they have to figure out a way to spend the money. (0:53:50)

So they hired you as an English tutor to have something to do with the money. Meanwhile, even though there were plenty of people there who could have used an English tutor, they didn't tell anyone that there was a tutor there. So I would just sit there and do my homework. Now, take that on to a vast, bigger level. And now you've got this black budget. (0:54:13)

You need to spend it on something. There's no one to watch because, in fact, the problem isn't really terrorism. So now we have to make up terrorists. So now everyone's a terrorist. So this guy in San Diego is not doing anything. He's pretty much just minding his own business. If he's abusing anyone, it's himself. So now we're going to say he's a terrorist and we'll follow him around and we'll create our little crypto Wikipedia page on him and keep adding information about him into it. (0:54:46)

And then we can say that we're doing something. Meanwhile, the real terrorists are walking in across the border of San Diego with a thermonuclear bomb strapped to their shoulders and no one notices that. That's why I really question the latest school shooter who... there were multiple... 18 tips about this guy. People calling into the FBI saying, this guy's about ready to explode. You should do something about it. (0:55:14)

Them claiming they don't have enough manpower to do anything about it, which, in fact, is probably true. And I think that that's exactly how this situation started. You get someone like SAIC or Leidos, they approach the FBI and they say, you know, you don't have enough manpower to watch all these potential terrorists. (0:55:35)

We do. Just contract it out to us. You can use the black budget money that you have, share it with us, and then we'll... you'll contract it out to us and then we'll surveil these people and harass them, etc. And the FBI says, excellent idea. Here's the check. Then, so now SAIC's doing this. The business is burgeoning, right? So then you got another, like, who knows, InfraGard, InfraGard, which is another one of these corporations. (0:56:02)

They approach Leidos and say, you know what, you don't have enough manpower to watch all these people, all these terrorists are wandering out here. You should contract it out to us. And then Leidos goes, that's a good idea. And then they sign the check over to InfraGard, and now they're doing it too. And then some other corporation, the Macy Group, M-A-S-Y, they come along and they say to InfraGard, you don't have enough manpower to watch all these terrorists. (0:56:29)

And they contract it out to them. There's just endless kinds of these, the DSAC, the Domestic Security Alliance Council, Whitney, Bradley, and Brown, InfraGard, ITA International, Prescient Edge, EKS Group, it just goes on and on. These privatized industrial corporations who are doing this kind of thing. They're surveillance role players. That used to be what they're called. They've probably changed the name now. But essentially it's government-funded vigilantes, which sounds like a paradox. (0:57:04)

How can you be government-funded and be a vigilante? But that's a pretty good way of describing it. Now, there were also some experiences that Damien had on the beach. Oh, yes. I think you're the first person who mentioned it. Because they're really weird experiences. I think you're the first interviewer, anyone who's ever brought this up. But he was on the beach, and there was a vehicle following him, and he could actually see the tracks in the beach following him. (0:57:40)

But there was no vehicle visible. And then, on top of that, he had another experience. You're talking about the leapfrogging robots? Yes. So he was on the beach, and he described them as these robots that moved in this kind of weird, jerky fashion, almost like a Ray Harryhausen stop-motion figure from Jason the Argonauts from the 1960s. You know how that claymation is kind of jerky and doesn't move in a smooth, human way? (0:58:13)

He called them leapfrogging robots. They were these odd, mechanical creatures that were leapfrogging on the beach, right there in Pacific Beach. And I included that detail because I took to heart something I read once in an interview with John A. Keel, who wrote a book called The Mothman Prophecies, which was later made into a film. And I read an interview with him once. (0:58:41)

And by the way, he had a similar kind of time lag. His experiences in Point Pleasant, West Virginia occurred in the late 60s, but he didn't write the book until 75. And I read an interview with him where he said it was so disturbing, he didn't want to think about it. (0:58:54)

And it took that long, about eight years, to write it. And that's the same time period that it took for me to process it and begin writing this book. What Keel said was that very often, UFO researchers will leave out the most important detail, the case, because it sounds silly or irrelevant or ridiculous. And that Keel discovered that usually those were the most important details. (0:59:24)

And so he always made sure... The highest, strangest details were the most important. So he always went out of his way to include them. Which is why I didn't leave out the leapfrogging robots, which by the way, they just had a spa war conference where they show off their new technology. And I was watching it, and sure enough, there are these robots that are moving in this weird, jerky fashion, and they're leapfrogging. (0:59:53)

And so when they show you something, that means they've had it for many, many years. Oh yeah, decades, probably. Yeah, and so the other weird detail that I insisted on including in the book, even though it might make the whole thing sound ridiculous, but I guess some people would say the whole thing does sound ridiculous, that one of Damon's friends, who was also being harassed, his name was Adam, he talked about how he went into Santee, S-A-N-T-E, Santee, California, which is right near San Diego, into this desert area. (1:00:28)

And there were these ape men. At first, they just saw these figures, dark figures, off in the distance in the desert, firing machine guns. That's ominous just by itself, but there's a bunch of desert rats who go out there and just shoot. So it may not be that odd. The machine gun thing might be a little worrisome. As they got closer, they saw that the figures turned towards them, and they saw that they were hairy, humanoid ape things, on their feet, walking on their feet, firing these guns. (1:01:04)

And they saw they were pretty close to them. And they could see their eyes. So they just turned around and got out of there real quick. And the reason I included that is because later on, I was talking to Melinda, Melinda Leslie, and she had an experience where she and a bunch of people were all abducted at the same time in 2010 from Arizona. She was staying at a friend's house, and the military guys came in, and they took Melinda, they took Melinda's friend, they took Melinda's friend's daughter, teenage or college-age daughter, and her friend's husband, and someone else. (1:01:45)

There was about five or six people they took all at the same time. And they took them to this underground base in the desert there in Arizona. And the college-age daughter, at one point, she went off into another area of this facility, and she described a laboratory kind of setting where there were all these weird creatures that she described as like hybrids, like human-slash-animal things, which I thought was interesting when she told me that, because I immediately thought of this story about the ape men. (1:02:23)

And then, you may recall, because I know you've interviewed David Paulides many times, Paulides tells that story about the kids that were lost in the woods, and then the people came and found the kids hiding behind the bush, and then they asked the kids, what are you doing? (1:02:40)

Didn't you hear us calling you? We've been calling you for like 12 hours. Why are you hiding here? And then the kids said, well, we didn't want the ape men to come back. We thought you might be the ape men. So, I decided to include that detail just because I thought it would be a mistake to leave it out. Sure. And also, by the way, just briefly mentioning John Keel, there's an interesting connection. (1:03:06)

There's a website called John Keel, not an authority on anything. John Keel used to have a business card, and on the business card it would say not an authority on anything. Yeah, I always love that. If you go to the March 5th, 2014 post, it's called Organized Harassment of Individuals. And they list his notes. And it's just notes on and on about people being harassed back in the 60s. So, I think, you know, even though this thing ballooned after 9-11, 2001, I think it was going on even back then. (1:03:43)

And in fact, the first person who interviewed me about this book was Tessa Dick, the widow of Phil K. Dick. She has a radio show called Ancient of Days, and she interviewed me. And she told me that everything, that she really liked the book because she could identify with it. Because when she was living with Phil K. Dick in Orange County in the 1970s, she said all the same stuff happened to Phil. And that specific incidents, like I describe in the book, how when Damien was living in that apartment on Garnet Avenue, all his neighbors moved out one by one by one over the course of many months, and were all replaced with new neighbors. (1:04:29)

And all those neighbors were completely hostile to him. And Tessa Dick said the same thing happened to Phil Dick. And in fact, these new neighbors would move in and they brought in this weird technology with antennas and stuff like that into the apartment. And then the radio started talking to Phil. But not just Phil, Tessa Dick heard it too. And the radio is not even plugged into the wall. (1:04:54)

And there's a voice coming through insulting Phil Dick, you know, personally. And so Tessa Dick heard this too, so it wasn't just like Phil was hallucinating. So again, that's in the 70s. So, yeah. Wow. I did not know that. That's interesting. The invisible vehicle on the beach. And later, you do get confirmation that this technology was, you know, available. You would think they would cover up the tracks though. (1:05:31)

Unless they wanted him to see the tracks. You know what I mean? That could have been it. I mean, it could have been part of the harassment, you know. It could have been a ploy to just freak him out. Yeah. And I mean, obviously showing him the robots again would be something just to freak him out and make him think he's losing his mind. (1:05:50)

Sure. Sure. Yeah, you know, it often reminds me of the, not the movies of Mission Impossible, which I haven't seen. (1:05:59)

But back in the 70s, the Mission Impossible show and the heroes were these intelligence agents who often, like, their job was to make someone go nuts. Yeah. And by the way, Phil Dick really loved the Mission Impossible TV series. But the whole, there was one particular episode where their job was to make some sort of dictator, you know, like Fidel Castro, think he was going crazy. (1:06:23)

So the guy who was an expert in disguises would make everyone up to look like they were skulls or something. And he would see a bunch of these people pass by and he thought he was going crazy. And I asked later on, you wonder, you know, sometimes these TV shows, where they're getting their ideas from. I asked Richard Schonger later on, when me and Damien met him, I asked him, I said, in this, with this technology, could you use this to make someone appear as if they're, if they were going crazy? (1:06:56)

And he said, oh yes, I included that in the patent. I included that as one of the uses of the technology that not only could you use it to camouflage people, but you could also use it to make a tree look like it's a man or a dinosaur or a giant spider, whatever you can imagine, and that you could drive someone crazy for psychological warfare purposes. (1:07:17)

And of course, he was thinking of it as being used against enemies of the United States. He didn't think that they were going to use it against civilians. Well, yeah, but it always is going to be. Of course. And there's always going to be a scientist who's naive enough not to understand that. Sure, because they're not thinking that way. Yeah, of course. And the government looks at everything as how can we use this as a weapon. Yes. But, what was the other thing I was going to ask you about that? (1:07:51)

How much do you think, like, obviously being a drug addict on top of everything else, Damien was probably prone to paranoia to begin with. How much of the things that happened to him do you think were their, you know, like, stuff they did then influencing his own paranoia? You mean, in other words, taking advantage of the paranoia that was already there? Yeah, yeah. (1:08:18)

Sure. Well, I mean, obviously, it's easier to push someone over the edge if they're already, you know, if they already have paranoid tendencies. I mean, I don't think that Damien was particularly paranoid at the beginning of all this. Okay, okay. He, as I said, his drug of choice was heroin, and I don't recall him having any really particular paranoid episodes until after all this started. You know, I mean, if you asked me, is he paranoid now? (1:08:51)

I would say, well, yeah, but that's sort of a natural reaction to having lived through all this, because you can't really ever know if you meet anyone new, someone new enters your life, you're wondering, is this, is this just coincidence, or is this person been sent to mess with my head? (1:09:11)

It would naturally drive you into a kind of paranoid state. I guess not only that, though, but they're like with the people following him. I mean, there were obviously a good number of people following him, but I would think it was also possible that some of the people he like, accosted, may not have actually been following him. Well, I mean, there's really, there's an incident I talk about in the book where he, this one guy was following him around, and he could tell, it was early on, it was early on enough that he wasn't even quite sure it was happening yet. And the guy was following him around, so he led him into some kind of a Salvation Army or something like that. (1:09:55)

And then the guy followed him out, and so Damien went into like a 7-Eleven and got a big Slurpee. And then in the middle of the street, the guy's like just a few feet behind him, Damien turns around and pours the entire, just splashes the entire Slurpee into the guy's face, and then calls him a homophobic word that would normally piss off any straight white male in the Marines. Right. And the guy didn't react at all, didn't do anything, just stared at him. (1:10:30)

Now, in the real world, that doesn't happen. There would be some sort of reaction. Absolutely. And the guy didn't, he just acted like a robot. And probably because he was told, don't interact, no matter what he does, do not react. Those are your orders. I guess what I'm saying is there are probably a few of those people who really weren't following him, but maybe were startled by, like he talks about pounding on the woman's car. Oh, yes. (1:10:56)

Absolutely. Well, that only works to their advantage, doesn't it? Oh, yeah, absolutely. You can harass them, harass them, harass them to such an extent that maybe you can even pull everyone away for a while, and then the person's mind will do it to itself. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, sure. That's a time-saving device right there, when you can get someone to do it to themselves. (1:11:19)

What was the thing that finally convinced you that he wasn't just making this stuff up or wasn't just crazy? Well, I mean, for the most part, I mean, when he sent me the license plate numbers, I mean, that was my initial... I thought, well, there's really no other explanation for this. However, when the story started getting more and more elaborate with the invisible people and the rooms growing and all that, I had to wonder how much of this is real and how much of it is not. (1:11:50)

So there was a room for doubt until Damien, he fled all the way to Winona, Kansas, which is a little town that has like 100 people in it. And for some reason, when he got there, the harassment stopped. I don't know if it's because it's such a small town that there was... that you can't get away with a whole parade of jarheads following him down the street. I mean, you'd notice suddenly a black van came down and there's all these new people coming into the town. (1:12:19)

Also, everyone there like owns guns. So as I said, this technology doesn't make you bulletproof. So they, for some reason, left him alone for about like three months or so when he was in this town. He kind of was able to gather his wits together and he went on the internet. He was trying to find anything that looked like the invisibility technology that he had seen. (1:12:36)

And he saw something about a guy named Professor Toshi who was a Japanese inventor who created this invisibility cloak, which wasn't quite what he had seen. And then he came upon this site called cameleo.net. And it was this site run by this guy, Richard Schongert. And Damien says, you should look at this website. This sounds like what I saw. So I'm looking at it and I'm surprised to see that Schongert claims that he was a 33rd degree Scottish Rite Freemason at the Scottish Rite in Long Beach. Well, I'm a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason at the Scottish Rite in Long Beach. So I thought, this is weird. (1:13:16)

This guy is in the same lodge as me. I must have met him at some point, though I didn't know it. So I emailed him and I said, I'm a writer, I do interviews, I'd like to interview you about your we'll meet at the lodge Saturday after next. (1:13:42)

So I told Damien to come down here. So Damien drives down and we both pick up Richard and we take him to lunch and then we take him to my office on campus. And I didn't know if any of this was actually going to tie in to anything. It could have been just a dead end. But immediately Richard starts talking about top secret clearance until recently. So he's worked on top secret projects. But Project Camellia was his own private side project that was not funded by the military. And he starts telling me about all the uses, everything you can do with this technology, you can use it for psychological warfare purposes, you can make rooms look like they're bigger than they actually are, you can make them look like they're smaller, you can project images outside a window, and on and on. He mentions that he was visited by employees of SAIC and that they came to visit him and he showed them the technology ten years earlier. He mentions that the Navy came to the laboratory that he shares with Dr. Levberger, who is a very eminent physicist, whose home base is in Hemet, California, which is the middle of nowhere. (1:15:07)

In fact, I went out to Levberger's laboratory. I went out there myself. And so the Navy went there to see what they could do and they were interested in it. And Levberger and Richard thought, well, they're going to fund us. This was ten years earlier, ten years before the interview. And then after that, they kind of just went away. The Navy went away, SAIC went away, they seemed to lose interest. Then, Richard bussed out with the fact that he had initiated a lawsuit and FOIA request against the Navy and the military and the Army because he thought that he had been stolen from. And so at a certain point in the interview, I stop and I say, okay, Damien's got a story to tell you. (1:15:56)

And so Damien starts telling him the whole story. And at first, Richard looks a little like, what is this? What's going on here? But the point where Damien mentioned that he had seen the invisible person in the mirror, the mirror was in motion, he kind of leaned forward and he said, oh, yeah, yeah, that's what happens because they're cloaking the suit but not cloaking the mirror. And then when Damien mentioned seeing the little auras in the air, little dots, he just leans forward and Richard goes, that's exactly what it looks like when the technology is not working properly. And it was that moment I could tell Richard was totally invested in it. (1:16:38)

Because there was no way that Damien would have known that. Damien's not a physicist, he doesn't know anything about optical camouflage. It's not a detail that you would just make up. And Richard could tell that he was telling the truth. And also Richard had had some... I interviewed Richard for a separate, totally separate interview for Nexus Magazine last year. (1:17:02)

And the whole point of that interview was just to go into the origins of Project Chameleon, how he came up with the idea. And Richard said that his interest in Rosicrucianism, because he became a Rosicrucian in the 50s in Guam when he was in the military, he became a Freemason around the same time. So he said his interest in Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism kind of melded with in the late 60s. He began to become interested in the UFO phenomenon. And as a Rosicrucian, he had heard for years stories about supposed ascended masters who had reached the higher levels of Rosicrucianism who could make themselves invisible. And then he started going into the whole UFO thing and reading about how the UFOs had this cloaking technology. And he started to wonder, how would you do that with our technology that we have today? (1:17:56)

And that's how it began. So in a way, I guess you could say that Richard's technology is kind of like the Cargo Cult version of the UFO technology. You've probably seen movies from the 1930s, Tarzan movies, where there's an African tribe and they've built a plane and they're worshipping it. That's kind of like what has happened here. In other words, there's two phenomena happening at the same time. There's that technology which has been created by humans aping a real phenomenon. So you have two things going on at the same time. (1:18:36)

You told the main part of the story in San Diego, and he was deteriorating pretty quickly at that point when he decided to try and leave. Oh yes, as I said, he was urinating blood, losing weight. He looked like a concentration camp victim at that point. So he took the van and where did he go from there? He got into the van and packed up his stuff. (1:19:06)

At that point, this is the beginning of 2004, and as I began to say earlier, at that time, no one was mentioning drones. There was a case recently where a drone was flying over Dodger Stadium. Someone shot it out of the sky. I was at the beach recently, Seal Beach, and a little circular drone came flying over. You could probably have thrown a rock at it. These are things that are now common to us. But in 2004, no one was talking about drones, except as a theoretical thing. Damien calls me from the side of the road to tell him that there are circular objects flying in the sky following him. I said, what do you mean? (1:20:00)

A flying saucer? He said, yes, a tiny flying saucer, the size of a manhole cover. It's following the van everywhere. He drives from San Diego to Texas. There's an amusing incident where he ran into his son. He was in a band with David Bowie called Tin Machine. He's had experiences with drugs himself. Damien is trying to tell him about this experience and his son said, you need to go into rehab. That was his advice. So Damien gets into the van and leaves Texas. He goes all the way into Minnesota and stops at a restroom and goes in to wash up. A guy comes in and is washing his hands at the sink next to him. He wasn't saying it in a threatening tone. Damien described it as a pleading tone. Like, please give the stuff back. It was that kind of a tone. That was the only time where the curtain was pulled aside. This was the other time where someone broke down and admitted that they were following him. Immediately after saying that, a second guy grabs the first guy and drags him out. (1:21:52)

The second guy was angry at this other guy. That freaked out Damien. He gets back into the van and drives some more. That's when the van broke down on the side of the road. (1:22:10)

These two good boys picked him up and offered to take him back to their house. Damien tells them the entire story. They are highly skeptical. They think he is just BS-ing them. I get a phone call at 10 o'clock at night. A guy with a heavy Southern accent picks up the phone and says, are you Professor Guffey? I said yes. He said, do you know a guy named Damien? (1:22:43)

I'm thinking, what is this? What happened now? The guy explains to them that they found Damien's car. They pick him up. Your friend is telling us this crazy story. Is this true? I said, yes, it is true. I went through the whole thing and told them this is what happened. As I talk to them, I hear a second guy yell out, come over here. As I'm on the phone, they're describing a tiny flying device hovering outside their house. Their minds get blown. I managed to convince them to help Damien put gas in the van so he could continue his journey. (1:23:38)

They were going to give him a homemade exorcism, weren't they? They thought Damien was infused with demons or something. In fact, there was one point where they had like the protocols of the bookshelf or something like that. One of those books. I can't remember now which one it was. But he gets back in the van and that's when soon after that he ended up in Wynonna, Kansas. Where they left him alone for a while. (1:24:17)

I was hoping it was all over. I generally thought that if he left Pacific Beach, it would end. That's a typical thing. Soon after Camellia was published, a guy visited me in my office on campus. He was a lawyer, a high-powered attorney in Minnesota, the same place where Damien got confronted in the bathroom. And this high-powered attorney who owned his own law firm was doing very well for himself. He started getting gang-stalked and he didn't know what was happening until he heard an interview with me. And he said, I came to talk to you because you are the only person who has described what was happening to me. (1:25:06)

He gave up his business, threw everything to his suitcase, and he left. He got on a plane and he was living somewhere on the beach in Santa Monica. And he thought that if he moved to California, the harassment would stop. But it didn't stop. It's important to note that it isn't just junkies and outliers and quote degenerates that they target. They can target anybody. (1:25:34)

If there's anyone listening who's thinking, well, I'm not a drug addict, so I can just settle back and not worry about it. The fact is anyone can come into their purview if you do something to piss them off. Or it could be random. In this case, I asked this attorney, I said, you're an attorney. Have you ever represented someone in the military or against the police? (1:26:00)

And he said, oh, right before this happened, I represented an African-American Muslim woman who had sued the police department in a harassment lawsuit. And he won that case for her. And I said, well, maybe we could stop there. It was soon after that that it started. He even told me that, I mean, this guy had a lot of money and he said he would have these Coke swinger parties in his basement. He had this party room in his basement. (1:26:38)

And he had friends over, they do cocaine and all kinds of other stuff. (1:26:43)

And he remembers seeing at the time this odd outline with a figure coming down the stairs. And he said it was almost like they were wearing some sort of uniform. And he positioned himself behind this water heater in the basement and was watching everything that was going on. And this occurred soon after this lawsuit. And soon after that the harassment began. And he said I never knew what that was and I thought maybe I was just hallucinating it or something. And when you talked about Damien seeing the weird outline, that was similar to what I had seen. (1:27:26)

And also I've been contacted by people who this one woman who had been an actress and was living in Palm Desert and they were harassing and surveilling her just like Damien and they were following her down this desert road in the middle of nowhere and she pulls off and gets out of the car and hides behind this outcropping And the car is like whizzed by her as if they've lost her. (1:28:01)

And she stays there for a long time because she doesn't want them to see her and get back on her tail. And suddenly she feels like a presence. You know, like the hair standing up at the back of your neck kind of a phenomenon. And she suddenly feels as if someone is nearby her, and she feels a hand grab her by the crotch. (1:28:17)

And she said she was so shocked by this that she didn't even... She said she didn't even have time to be offended by the sexual assault. It was just like, what the hell is happening? And she yelled out, like, you know, get away from me. You're frightening me or something like that. And that was another case I got of someone who lives here in Southern California who said that she would often see this kind of weird outline walk by the hallway. (1:28:48)

And she was experiencing surveillance harassment. In this case, it seemed random. She didn't know why it had started. And she was lying in bed with a friend. And she felt a hand suddenly caressing her thigh. And then she moved away. She got freaked out. And then the person ran out of the room. And the way I've contextualized this is to draw an analogy from current headlines. (1:29:15)

Imagine a cadre of covert Harvey Weinsteins given unlimited black budget to do whatever the hell they want with invisibility suits. And you can kind of imagine what would occur from that. So it was soon after that, that Damien, he found out about Richard Schoengart and tipped me off to him. And then that's when we met Schoengart. And we had the extensive interview where Schoengart pretty much backed up everything that Damien had said to an eerie degree to the extent of bringing up SAIC and bringing up the Navy. And the Navy had come and talked to him ten years earlier. (1:29:57)

And after our encounter with Richard, I actually kind of thought, well, maybe this will make Damien... this will settle his mind a bit. (1:30:10)

He'll understand that he wasn't going crazy. You have to understand, I wasn't the only one questioning it. Damien was questioning himself. Is this actually... maybe I am going crazy, which is exactly the point of it. I mean, that's what they want. They want you to question your sanity. And so now knowing and meeting Richard and realizing, no, I wasn't going crazy, actually was far more disturbing. It would have been easier, I think, on him if he could conclude that he was going crazy. (1:30:49)

Because at least all you have to do is just take medication to cure that problem. Right, right. This problem, you can't just take medication to make it go away. This is a major problem. And so he kind of... I felt like, and I write about this in the book, that I think he kind of spiraled down even further after that. It freaked him out so much. (1:31:12)

So I actually lost contact with him for a year or so. And then he moved to San Francisco, and he said that when he was in San Francisco, he noticed that whenever there was some major protest in town, like an Occupy Wall Street protest, which happened frequently being in San Francisco, if he went outside on a day where there was a big protest going on, they'd be all over him again. In other words, everything would kind of slow down and go away and make you think, well, maybe they've given up. (1:31:47)

And then suddenly, boom, they pull the rug out from under you, and they're all over you again. And I've talked to other people who've described the same kind of up-and-down scenario where everything goes silent, you're kind of feeling like you're going to relax a bit, and then boom, they pull the rug out from under you again. And so... Yeah, go on. So when all this stuff was happening to him, it was also making you a little bit paranoid too, wasn't it? (1:32:16)

Yes, because things would happen which seemed beyond coincidence and beyond synchronicity. I mean, I almost did feel like John Keel describes in Mothman Prophecies where he's getting the weird phone calls and feelings that he's being watched. And I had described an incident that occurred where I was living in an apartment on Alamitos and 1st Street in Long Beach, and Damien had come. (1:32:54)

This would have been just before the interview with Richard. And he came down, stayed with me in the apartment for a couple of days, and then left. And I remember right before he left, he said to me, just be careful. If someone new enters your life or something, be wary of them. And quite frankly, I thought he was being a little overly cautious. (1:33:12)

And he left. And then the next day, a friend of mine who had been a student of mine, the very first semester I ever taught at CSU Long Beach, she had been in my class and we remained in touch. (1:33:26)

She had since moved to New York and was coming back to take some sort of test and to visit friends in Long Beach. And she calls me, she says, you want to get together and go to lunch? And I go, sure. And she says, I'm taking the bus down. I'll get off on 1st and Alamitos and just meet me at the corner. And so I go, okay. So I'm waiting for her. She gets off the bus and there's a guy with her. (1:33:53)

And she hadn't mentioned she was bringing a friend. I was like, who's this? And she goes, oh, I met him on the bus. He introduced me and he says he's a dock worker. And he invites us both to go to lunch with him. And he invites us to a place called 555, which is kind of a high-end restaurant. You don't want to just walk in off the street. (1:34:16)

I mean, you kind of, it would be definitely like a formal attire affair. But he says, oh, don't worry about it. My friend is the maitre d' and he can get it set up. Don't worry about it. And I'm remembering what Damien was saying and I'm thinking, don't be paranoid. Maybe it's just some guy on the bus and he must be just a friendly guy. (1:34:38)

And so he takes both of us to this restaurant and we're waiting in line to go inside. And my friend, Sharon, she walks away and says she has to make a phone call. She leaves me alone with this guy while we're waiting to go in. Immediately the second she leaves, he turns to me and he goes, have you ever heard of a book by Milton William Cooper called Behold the Pale Horse? (1:35:05)

And I go, yeah, I've heard of that book. I've read that book. He goes, yeah, it's about conspiracies. What do you think about conspiracies? And I go, I don't know much about that. And then he goes, what do you think about President Bush? Do you think he's doing a good job? I think someone needs to take him out. What do you think about that? And I go, I think President Bush is doing an excellent job. I voted for him twice. Avoiding anything to implicate me, because it sounded like to me that he was trying to rope me into something that I didn't want to get roped into. (1:35:50)

By the way, I thought it was weird that anyone in the conspiracy world, of course, knows Behold the Pale Horse and William Cooper. It's like asking a musician, have you ever heard of the Beatles? It's just a weird question to ask. And then when he called them Milton William Cooper, which in fact is the name that is on the spine of the book, it says Milton William Cooper, but no one calls him that. You'd be like a baseball fan calling Babe Ruth by his real name. (1:36:15)

Right, right. (1:36:17)

Milton Cooper, who the hell is that? Oh, William Cooper, yeah. Bill Cooper, oh yeah. And it was as if they had given him some sort of file the day before. These are the talking points. Mention Milton William Cooper and the Illuminati and you'll be able to rope them in to saying something. Then Sharon comes back and we sit down and he keeps on. Now he's talking about the Illuminati and are you into the Illuminati? And Sharon is Jewish. She's from Israel. So she's like, Illuminati, what do you mean? And he goes, well, you ever heard of a book called Protocols of the Elders of Zion? (1:36:57)

Milton Cooper says that if you take out the word Jew and replace it with the Illuminati, then the whole book is true. And Sharon's like, that sounds like some anti-Semitic BS to me. What are you talking about? And I'm not helping the situation because I keep acting like I don't know what he's talking about. And the whole thing was just surreal. And I'm becoming more and more hostile. I'm not touching the food or the water because I'm thinking that he's put something in the food or the water. And eventually I convinced, I've made the situation so uncomfortable that Sharon just decides, let's just leave. (1:37:35)

So we leave and as we're on our way out, she turns to me and she's like, what was that all about? Why do you have to be so hostile to the guy? And I go, can't you tell this guy, this guy's a government agent? And by the way, he said he was a dock worker? When I shook his hand, his hands were as soft as a baby's bottom. I mean, I don't know what kind of a dock worker he was, but apparently he didn't have to lift anything. (1:38:02)

And then so she's like, what's up with you? And I'm like, I go, listen, this is all about these night vision goggles. And she's like, what are you talking about? She goes, you've been hanging around too many crazy people. And I thought, you know, that could be true. I mean, that is like a legitimate criticism. But nonetheless, that doesn't mean that all this isn't happening. (1:38:27)

It's not mutually exclusive. I could be hanging around crazy people and all this could be happening at the same time. Right. And just to give you the most mundane example, first, I went outside with a bag of trash and I put it in the trash bin that's underneath my window. And I came back up here and then I realized, oh, I left one bag up here. (1:39:19)

So I grabbed the second bag and I go down. The guy was constantly in the car across the street is now digging into the trash can into the bag that I just put in there. And he's pulling out all these like a couple of pieces of paper that are in the trash bag. (1:39:32)

He looks at me, puts the couple of pieces of paper back in the bag, then just walks back to his car and sits there. And I just threw the second bag in. I was like, okay, well, you know, whatever. Then, not long after that, there was these two guys, two kids, I say kids, I mean like 19, 20, you know, college age, who were just constantly in this van right across the street from my window. (1:40:00)

And I took my, I was walking with my daughter, who's about nine years old at this point, down the alleyway. And one of these guys gets out and he just whips out his penis and starts taking a piss. It's a tree like right next to me, like in front of my daughter. And I'm thinking, this is really weird, okay? Then we leave. We come back about a half hour later. He's in front of the same tree doing the same thing. I don't know how much liquid this guy consumes, but I thought that was odd. (1:40:37)

Go upstairs. Usually there was two guys in the van, and usually it'd be one guy, the other guy would disappear, then the other guy would take his place. But in this particular occasion, both guys were at the van at the same time. They both grabbed their skateboards and they left the vehicle unattended. And my wife said, you should go write some kind of nasty note on their window. And I go, well, that's not colorful enough. Let me think about it for a second. (1:41:00)

So I go over to my computer and I just start typing random letters and numbers on the computer. Then at the bottom I wrote, the management. And I printed it out. And I go across the street and I fold it and slip it into their windshield wiper. I come back. Now I'm looking through the blinds. About a few minutes later, they both come back with their skateboards. (1:41:24)

The one guy sees the note and he pulls it out of the windshield wiper and he sees it. Immediately turns to the second guy and starts yelling at him, who have you been talking to? And he grabs his skateboard and starts beating the crap out of him. Just like beating him in the face with a skateboard. And the second guy's like, I haven't told anyone anything. And they start beating each other with their skateboards and their fists. (1:41:49)

And me and my wife are watching it through the blinds and we both turn to each other and go, holy yes, I didn't intend for this to happen. It's like, oh, now I'm gang stalking them. I didn't even intend to do that. And after they've done beating each other up, the second guy gets on his hands and knees and crawls under the van as if he's looking for something. Under the van. (1:42:21)

He doesn't find it, I guess. And then he gets out and they both look towards their right with this look on their face as if any moment Valkyries or like a swarm of flying monkeys are going to descend from the sky and attack them. (1:42:36)

They just have this like weird look on their face like something is about to appear. Then the guy takes the note and he like shoves it into his pocket. He's like, don't say anything about this. And they get in the car and they drive away and I've never seen him again. Wow. I can't explain that. Let's say there's two random kids who, let's say they're homeless and they're living in their van. And they just so happen to pick the spot right across from my apartment building. (1:43:04)

And they find a note with random letters and numbers on it that says the management. Wouldn't you just think, huh, that's weird and throw it away? Yeah. Why would they start beating each other up over that? I have no idea. That's a bizarre story. So the things like that have occurred since all of this occurred. Sometimes I'll be doing one of these radio shows and they'll ask me, well, do you think you're being gangsta? (1:43:32)

And the fact is, in terms of what Damien experienced or other people I know have experienced, I would have to say no in the sense that I'm not urinating blood. And you don't have like dozens and dozens of people obviously following you. Exactly right. (1:44:08)

However, I do have my friend has an interesting thought on this. He says he thinks that there's a lot of people who are being gangsta. They don't know it though. They just think they live in a world of a-holes. And I thought, you know what, that could be, particularly if you've been chosen at random and you don't know why you've been chosen. You could just think, wow, who are all these a-holes getting in my way and saying weird stuff. (1:44:23)

Yeah, that could possibly be. So yes, no, not to the extent that Damien was gangsta, but I can only describe it as obstructive incidents like the ones I've just described. Wow. There was one of the things you talked about in there with numbers on the phone and the phones acting weird. You already talked about trying to give them the password when the phones were cutting off. But doesn't Damien say at some point he keeps hearing numbers repeated on the phone? (1:44:53)

Oh yeah, yeah. He would hear a voice saying a random sequence of numbers, which I have a footnote in there, and I cite the Mothman Prophecies by John A. Keele, because he mentions the same exact phenomenon, the same kind of phone weirdness of people talking on the phone like you and I are now, and then suddenly a third voice entering the conversation and just reading off random sequences of numbers. (1:45:21)

And there's other people who say that they actually hear voices saying that in their head, not on the phone. And yeah, so that's something that he reported as well. And that's a long time frame for them to be interfering with the phones back then like that and still doing it today. But I guess it's something that would freak somebody out. (1:45:52)

Oh yeah, yeah. And as for the purpose of it, I have no idea. It just occurred to me to... there was another incident that just occurred to me that you might be interested in hearing. I had been out of contact with Damien for a long time, so this would have been about 2008. And we'd gotten in touch with each other again, and I was living in an apartment near Cherry Park in Long Beach. And I had a storage space apart from the apartment I lived in. (1:46:31)

And there was also a garage underneath. I was on the third floor, and there was a garage that everyone in the apartment shared. I had some stuff down there, but most of the stuff was in this off-site storage space. And I'd been going through there, and I found a bunch of Damien's writing. And I sent him an email, and I said, hey, I found a bunch of your ass in my storage. Should I send it to you? And he writes back, you know, yes, send it to me. Send me the stuff. (1:47:08)

It just so happened that that weekend, my wife and daughter left town, and I was writing all day. It was on a Saturday, and I wrote late into the night. And I remember around 2 a.m., I went into my bedroom, turned on the light, and the light would shine into the alleyway. And when the light shined in the alleyway, I suddenly heard scurrying down below near the garage, like the garage door suddenly shutting, and these people running off in the alley. And I thought, well, who knows, it's probably just someone else in the apartment, in the garage, and didn't think much of it. (1:47:45)

Next morning, I woke up late, probably, I don't know, like 10 o'clock or something, and I went downstairs, and one of my neighbors was there, and he goes, did you see the garage? And I go, no. And he takes me down to the garage, and the whole place is a mess, like a whirlwind went through it. He had all this, my neighbor had all this expensive electronic equipment, but none of that was taken. I had two bicycles down there, and those weren't taken. But all these boxes had been just littering the place. And I suddenly remembered the email I had sent Damien, where I said, I have your stuff in storage. (1:48:23)

And I thought, did they think I meant the storage here, when in fact I meant my storage space off-site? I mentioned it only because it was odd that nothing was taken. Why would you break into a garage, and there's all this expensive electronic equipment, and you just leave that there, if it was just a bunch of junkies trying to get something back? And then I should also mention one other thing, which is when I was writing Cameo, the manuscript was done, but I hadn't submitted it anywhere else yet. (1:49:08)

And I know, I'm friends with a woman who is an entertainment lawyer. She's quite a successful entertainment lawyer, and she used to work for Warner Brothers. And she herself has been targeted for many years, ever since she was a small child. And in fact, she was basically sold into one of these mind control programs by her father. (1:49:22)

I don't know if sold is the right term. Initiated into one of these mind control programs. And I had known her for many years before I even knew... before all of this had started with Damien. I had met her in 2001, 2002, something like that. And she... her father had been a very important judge in the Pacific Northwest. And she has satanic ritual abuse in her background, and mind control stuff. She remembers being trained in the forest, wearing camel fatigues, trained to shoot a gun when she was 10 years old, even younger. (1:50:05)

And so I knew she knew about this stuff, and wanted her to read the manuscript before I even sent it anywhere. And so she took the... I gave her the raw manuscript, and she took it with her. And it was Labor Day weekend. And she took it with her to a restaurant, and was reading it in the restaurant. And then she got into her car, and she put the manuscript in her backseat, along with a journal in which she was writing her comments in the journal about the... my manuscript. And she put those both in the back of the car, and then went to the beach in Santa Monica. And with her two dogs, she locks the car, and takes her two dogs, and goes on a walk on the beach. (1:50:41)

Comes back about a half hour later, my manuscript is gone, and her journal is gone. And there's actually no evidence that the car was broken into. And she thinks, did I leave it at the restaurant? Even though she knew she hadn't. She's like, I just have to confirm that I did not leave it at the restaurant. So she drives back to the restaurant, goes back to the booth, she talks to the waiter. The waiter goes, no, you didn't leave anything behind. So, you know, I have no idea why anyone would need to go to that extent. You could just read my computer to read what I wrote. You wouldn't need to grab the raw manuscript, you know. (1:51:22)

So I don't know if, as I said, there was no evidence that the car had been broken into. And yet it was gone. I don't know if that was some sort of intimidation thing, or maybe it was more directed at her, because she's also targeted. So I don't know. But probably worth mentioning. Sounds like it's just a, I want to mess with you thing. (1:51:46)

I think so, yeah. Now, when you had moved to Seattle yourself, trying to find a job, and Damien decided to join you there. Yes. Not sounding like it was exactly your first choice. No, it wasn't. In retrospect, it was actually fortunate, because it's a great sequence in the book. Fair enough. I mean, sometimes, like when you're a writer, sometimes things will happen, and they may not be like the best thing that could possibly happen. In fact, it may be horrible. But there's this other voice in your head that's thinking, this will be a great scene later on. (1:52:32)

Great story. (1:52:35)

In this particular instance, I actually wasn't thinking that. I was just thinking that this was extremely annoying. But what happened was that Damien had an ex-girlfriend, who was also a heroin addict, and an ex-stripper. And she was probably the only other person in the world who understood the way Damien's mind worked. And I have to say, when I was writing the manuscript, in the back of my head, I was kind of writing it to her. (1:53:06)

Because I knew that she was the only other person who would get the dark humor of this. I've done interviews where sometimes people, I will see comments on YouTube or something, like, this guy is laughing about this. What's wrong with him? And I can only conclude that these people are just leading perfect lives. And nothing bad has ever happened to them. And don't recognize the fact that when something really weird and traumatic like this happens, the only way to deal with it is, in fact, to have a sense of humor. (1:53:39)

And I mentioned in the book that one of my, I think, my main purposes, helping Damien through all this, was just trying to kind of lighten the mood at times. I mean, that's where you get things like the invisible midget running joke from. It was just a way of kind of trying to make light of it, or trying to see the humor in all this. (1:53:59)

The absurdity, I should say. Because it is absurd. On what level? It is absolutely, it's almost like a surreal, a work of surreal absurdism by Andre Petone, or something. But it sounds like that's very intentional. Intentional, you mean on their part? Yes, yeah. Yes, absolutely. There's almost a, it's odd that you should mention that, because I was writing something entirely unrelated to conspiracies. (1:54:32)

I was writing an article about a film, I've been working on a book called Hollywood Haunts the World, an investigation into the cinema of occulted taboos. It's an investigation into how cinema deals with taboos in a way that people can wrap their minds around. In other words, if you write about something that's taboo in a fictional format, in a popular format, people can kind of deal with it before it becomes a factual truth. (1:54:58)

So the book is an analysis of various films going all the way back to the 1920s that deal with various taboo topics. I have a whole chapter that's just about films that dealt with the theory of evolution and Darwinism in the form of horror films in the 20s and 30s, at a time when it was still illegal to talk about the theory of evolution. (1:55:18)

You know, you could get fired if you were a teacher and you were talking about that in the Deep South. And so I have a whole chapter that's just about various horror films, particularly in the 20s and 30s, that dealt with this topic in a kind of metaphorical way. (1:55:31)

Same thing with UFOs, JFK assassination. I have an early chapter that's all about theosophy and kind of non-traditional occultic religions that were popular in the 20s, particularly in Hollywood. And so I deal with this one film called The Phantom Carriage that was made in 1921. And while I was researching it, I was reading Sigmund Freud's book, The Uncanny, which is a classic work in analyzing works of fiction that utilize what he called the uncanny. (1:56:09)

Which essentially is creating a work of fiction where it seems real, but there's also a dream-like quality to it as well. And as I was reading his analysis, he was breaking down how do you make someone, make the reader feel as if they're living in a dream or to question their sanity in a way where the story kind of instills in the reader an almost dream-like sense, a disturbing quality of not knowing, is this real or is this not real? That's what he called the uncanny. (1:56:47)

And as he's describing the components of what a fiction writer would do to instill this feeling in the reader, I realized that this was everything that was used on Damien. And I wondered, is that a coincidence? I mean, a lot of the people who started the CIA were Yale literature graduates. James Jesus Angleton and all these guys, they didn't have military backgrounds, they were literature majors. (1:57:15)

They were poets and writers. And those were the guys who started the CIA. So I don't think it's too far out there to suggest that the people who came up with these ideas on how to disturb someone may have been actually reading this essay by Freud, the uncanny, and other literary works. Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, you talk about in the book how Hollywood and the CIA have kind of a revolving door. (1:57:48)

Oh yeah, and in fact, it was a surprising moment in the interview when Richard himself brought that up, because he mentioned the Predator movie. And he said whoever, because that film came out right when he was beginning the Project Cameo. And he said whoever their consultant was was very good, because even at that early stage, I think that film comes out in 86, 85, something like that. (1:58:17)

Yeah, somewhere in there. He said that even at that early stage, the way they presented how the optical camouflage works was very accurate, and that he knew that from personal experience. And we were talking off the air about David Politis, and he wrote a book called Missing 411, The Hunters, which ends with a story about a bow hunter who was the wife of Bruce McAbee. A ufologist and an optical physicist himself. And she was in the forest, and the interesting thing about that story is all, there was a sudden silence. (1:58:59)

All the noise stopped, all the birds, she couldn't hear the birds or anything. Silence descended on her, which is exactly like Damien experienced, as I mentioned before in the last segment, the noise cancellation technology. (1:59:13)

Then, soon after that, she saw hopping from tree to tree, this kind of pixelated being, and she said she just waited there with her bow ready, until finally the thing went away. And then later on, she got home and showed the photograph she had taken to her husband, Bruce McAbee, who said, I don't know, this is a really weird photo. It's like the perfect guy to analyze it, because he's not an optical physicist. And then supposedly later on, her son called her and said that she was, I think at football practice or something like that. (1:59:50)

Yeah, something like that. And a UFO had been seen hovering in the same area, which makes me think, and we also mentioned off the air, there's a guy named Chris Bledsoe, B-L-E-D-S-O-E, who had an abduction experience in North Carolina in 2007, and his son saw two entities in the woods that went invisible. And so it makes me think that there's two things going on here. (2:00:31)

Richard's technology, which he said in an interview in Nexus Magazine that I published last year, Richard said that one of his inspirations for starting this was his interest in UFOs. He first got interested in the subject back in the late 60s, and he immediately keyed in on this detail that a lot of these ships seem to have a cloaking device. And that married with the fact that Richard had been a Rosicrucian and a Freemason since the 1950s. He'd been initiated into the Rosicrucians when he was on Guam in the military. (2:00:52)

He had known a lot of Rosicrucians who claimed that there were these higher masters who could make themselves invisible. So then coupled with that and his interest in UFOs and the cloaking technology that the craft seemed to deploy, he thought, how would you do that with our technology that we have access to now? That's what started him thinking about it. So in a way, you can think about Project Cameleo as a kind of cargo cult version of what the UFOs display. (2:01:20)

Yeah, but... Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. The UFO crossover here, like you were talking about that silence, and that's also what Jenny Randles has coined as the Oz Effect, which can also happen in altered states of consciousness. Ah, that's interesting. I actually read a book by Jenny Randles, but I didn't know... I've never heard that before. The Oz Effect. Yeah, the Oz Effect. It's that silence and that weird feeling you get right before generally something high strangeness-like will happen. (2:01:57)

And that's happened not just in that one incident in San Diego, but it's happened to Damien in other places as well. So you have to ask yourself, like, I assume in that instance, it was something that was technology. It was some sort of noise-canceling technology, given the context. But then there are these other cases where, is it technology or is it something else? Again, I would say that both are happening at the same time. In other words, there's an overlap. (2:02:31)

Yeah, and how much is the government mimicking stuff that is genuinely paranormal? (2:02:38)

I think that happens a great deal, because the government is very well aware of these, how shall we say, mythologies. For example, the Men in Black lore. Back in 1997, a friend and I, we went to go see a lecture by Dave Emery. Do you know who Dave Emery is? Not off the top of my head, no. He's a political researcher. (2:03:26)

He has a radio show that airs on WBAI, which I believe is the Pacifica Station in New York. And also, he has a radio show that airs early in the morning on the Pacifica Station here in Los Angeles, KPFK. He was very much influenced by Mae Brussel, the Queen of Conspiracies. And he was giving a lecture in, if I remember correctly, it was Altadena or someplace like that, and we drove all the way over there. (2:03:41)

He was giving a lecture about various conspiracies involving the Bush administration. This was in 1997. And we drive all the way down there and we go, it was at a library, and we go in there and Dave Emery's sitting there, he's about to give this lecture. And the people in the audience was a fascinating mixture of people who came to hear this conspiracy lecture. (2:04:02)

There were little ladies with blue hair, and then there was kids with leather jackets, like punk rockers. And then there was kind of conservative people just across the board. Conspiracies make strange bedfellows. And right before the lecture was to start, my friend turns to me and says, we should go to the car and get a recorder. And I go, oh, that's a good idea. (2:04:34)

So we leave about a minute before the lecture is about to begin. We leave, we go out in the parking lot. There are these guys dressed in black right out of a John Keel book from 1960. And there's a shiny black Cadillac that looks like it just came off the conveyor belt. And I mean, it was, they were like, it was as if they were wearing costumes, you know, but it wasn't Halloween. And they were going around from car to car and photographing license plates. (2:05:07)

And it was so blatant and ridiculous. We just turned to each other and are we seeing this? And we actually went to Jim's car. He grabbed his camera and he grabbed the recorder. And he came back and he actually took a picture of the car that by that point they'd all gotten back in the car. So it's just a picture of a car. It's like, it doesn't really mean anything. (2:05:35)

And we went back into the lecture and I was thinking, that's very strange because they did all this. They went to all this trouble. But we all should have been in the lecture. I mean, there was no, in other words, there was really no reason why we should have been out in the parking lot at that moment. We just went out on a whim to go get the recorder. (2:05:56)

But they got all dressed up to do this stunt of photographing the license plates. (2:06:02)

And that same year, in 97, on September 11th, 97, Richard Hoagland gave a presentation at the Evergreen Hotel in Pasadena, right down from JPL. It was the night that the Mars lander had landed. And Richard Hoagland did this whole thing that went on for like seven hours. And me and the same friend, we said, let's go down and check that out. So we go there and it was crazy because it started like at eight o'clock at night and went on till like two in the morning. (2:06:36)

Of Richard Hoagland and various other people talking. And there was a guy at one point, we go out on the balcony and there's a guy, just classic man in black garb. And he's on his phone. And he keeps like talking on the phone. And at first I thought he was a security guard. And I just dismissed it and really didn't think about it. (2:06:57)

Then the next night, Richard Hoagland was on coast to coast talking about it. And he said, yeah, there was this man in black guy. He kept coming in and he would ask weird questions of the other people who were speaking, you know, kind of like intimidating questions. And then leave and talk on the phone, go out on the balcony and then come back in and just stand there and be intimidating. (2:07:14)

So in both of these instances, I'm not claiming any kind of supernatural men in black phenomenon. I'm saying that they were clearly human beings dressed in this garb. But they clearly knew and understood the folklore. And intended it to be intimidating in some way. And again, is it something that they made up? Or are they piggybacking on an actual phenomenon? It's almost like Jacques Vallée writes about messengers of deception. (2:07:48)

He talks about the connection between... he suggests that perhaps some of the cattle mutilations are the result of government experiments. And he mentions there was an actual program the CIA had in the Philippines. Where the Philippines are very invested in the supernatural. And they're very superstitious. And they actually believe in vampires. In fact, there's this one creature that they believe is... it's like this severed head that moves itself with its tongue. (2:08:22)

Using its tongue as like a pseudopod to drag it along the floor. And then it crawls up into your bed and tries to steal your soul. And these are things that are actually... people believe in them. And so there was a military operation where the CIA were killing people and making it seem like vampires had done it. Which is weirdly reminiscent of a Bela Lugosi movie called Mark of the Vampire from the 1930s. Where the same thing happens except it's not the CIA. It's just some one guy who tries to make it seem like he kills this guy and makes it seem like a vampire did it. (2:08:54)

And so there is evidence that the government is well aware of these kind of folklore and mythologies and uses them when it's viable. (2:09:08)

There's a whole office in the Pentagon called the Office of the Occult. And the entire purpose of it is to study those things and to use it when it's necessary. Yeah, I think Nick Redford actually wrote about that one as well in one of his books. Ah, that's interesting. Now there was a novel you wrote called The Opposite of Foolproof. And that covers some of the stuff you don't talk about in Cameo, but that's fiction. (2:09:36)

That is fiction. And I really should pull that out. And I've got... I have like a million things going on at the same time. Until Last Dog Dies just came out. I have another book coming out, a nonfiction book. Speaking of Bail Legosi, it's a nonfiction book analyzing some of the films of Bail Legosi of the 1940s. It's kind of a cultural analysis of 1940s America as seen through the films of Bail Legosi. And I wrote it with a friend of mine named Gary Rhodes, who's the head of the film department at the University of Belfast in Ireland. And we co-wrote this book. So it's a book about film. (2:10:28)

So I have a lot of interest in all these projects going on. And that particular novel I'm actually quite fond of. And I really need to pull it out and start submitting it again and look over it again. Has it been published at all? No, no. It's still in raw manuscript form. I've never even submitted it anywhere. I need to take it out and look it over again. But it's on my to-do list. (2:10:55)

In the book you give the impression that you had published it already. Maybe I misread that. I think you misread that. Because I haven't published that particular book. I think I mentioned that I wrote it. Oh, okay. The way it reads is... you know that chapter where I'm in Seattle with Damien? The kind of tone of that chapter? Imagine that at novel length. (2:11:26)

It's that kind of crazy, almost gonzo tone to it. Oh, by the way, I realized that I went off on a tangent and didn't get back to what I was going to say about Seattle. Which is that Damien had this ex-girlfriend, who I call Melanie, in the book. And she was an ex-heroin addict herself and an ex-stripper. And I was to meet her in Seattle. And that I had kind of written the book with her in mind, knowing that she would understand the kind of absurdity and craziness that is the life of Damien. And strangely, she's one of the casualties of the book because she passed away before the book was published. (2:12:14)

And I actually contacted her mom as I wanted to send her a copy of the book. There's a point in the book where I actually mentioned helping her move into an apartment in Seattle and her mom being there. And her mom seeing me and being relieved because she thought we were going to get married or something. (2:12:29)

I was like the most normal person she'd ever seen her with. Certainly more normal than Damien. So I think she was hoping that we were going to get married or something. And so I actually contacted her mother and I said, do you have her current contact information because I want to send her the book. And I discovered that she died and it was clear to me that she didn't want to discuss what had happened. (2:12:49)

So I got the feeling that it was something she was embarrassed about. I suspect it was, I don't know, either suicide or a drug overdose or something. But she's one of the people who did not live to see the book published, which was unfortunate. Because as I said, I was kind of writing it with her in mind and thinking that she would like it. (2:13:15)

She would understand it and get it. So yeah, that's what happened to her. Okay. What is in that novel that relates to all this that you haven't published? It's more, it doesn't really, I avoid entirely talking about any sort of conspiratorial subject, except maybe in a passing reference. It's really more about what was going on in my life aside from that at the time. (2:13:46)

Oh, okay. So that's why I say it's sort of more like that chapter that is in Seattle, but like at greater length. I purposely didn't deal with any of the political implications, what was going on with Damien at the time, because that was just like, you know, that would be like getting lost in the woods or something. I realized that was a whole separate book, which it was. (2:14:11)

Gotcha. So one of the questions that came up in my brain fairly early on to this is, what's so special about the night vision goggles? And I mean, the thing that immediately occurs to me is, could these night vision goggles perhaps defeat the invisibility? That is in fact what Richard Schonger and me and Damien, that was the conclusion we came to. That's pure speculation, but Richard agreed with it, that that was a reasonable thing to conclude because you had this invisibility technology happening. (2:14:48)

Then you had this night vision goggle thing going on at the same time. It's reasonable to conclude that there was some sort of connection between the two. And we thought that if you put the goggles on, you could actually see the people wearing the invisibility technology. It's interesting. There's two overlaps here with ufology. One is, I just mentioned that Christopher Bledsoe and his experience with the invisible beings in the woods. (2:15:13)

He mentions that when his son saw the two beings that went invisible, because at first he saw them, he said they were very small and they were wearing these weird goggles. And then they went invisible, but he said you could still see their eyes, which were like glowing kind of red. Interesting. Well, there's, there's, there's a connection there too, to a lot of sightings and stuff, the whole red eyed monster thing. (2:15:40)

Oh, we did that, you know, John Keel, you know, Mothman. Yeah. And, uh, and, and also when I was on with, uh, George Knapp, we were talking about the parallels with Cameo and A Hunt for the Skinwalker. There was a point in the book that was fascinating because he mentioned that they had brought some remote viewers onto the ranch to remote view the ranch. (2:16:03)

And they suspected, they wondered if some of the phenomena on the ranch might be some sort of government experiment. (2:16:10)

That was actually one of the theories being bandied about. And so they bought, brought these remote viewers there to remote view the area. And one of the remote viewers said that they saw something that was very puzzling and they couldn't explain it. They said all they saw was a ship, a naval ship, people on the ship wearing these goggles. And they said they thought it had something to do with what was going on at the ranch, but they couldn't explain what the connection was. (2:16:37)

And I read that, and again, kind of like me throwing in the eight man detail, not knowing what it meant. George Knapp threw that in there, not knowing what it meant, but maybe it might mean something later on. And so when he read Camellio, he was like, oh, that's interesting. You get the goggles and the navy both connected to this vision that the remote viewer saw. (2:16:58)

Like I said earlier, it could be that at the ranch, it's one of those cases where, well, we're going to experiment with this. Why not do it in a place where weird phenomena is already happening? Because that ranch is in an area that already had a reputation for being haunted. Going back a hundred years or so, or even longer. And so, yeah, why not do it there? (2:17:25)

It's not going to draw any attention if you experiment with it there. Similar to what I was saying before about why was SCAC built across the street from where the Whaley house is. Right, right. And the implications for this type of technology when dealing with the UFO phenomena, I mean, it's something I point out over and over that this stuff, it's like, you know, someone's like, well, look at this video, this looks like it's real. (2:17:52)

And it very well may be real, but there's no way to know if that is somehow paranormal, or outside of what we know, or just government technology. And who knows how far ahead they have technology. Because we'll say, well, we don't have anything that can do this, but we have no idea what the government has and what it can do. Oh, absolutely. (2:18:19)

In fact, a small segment of the interview I did with Richard originally appeared in an issue of UFO magazine around about 2007. And I originally wanted it in there for a specific reason, which is, Damien said to me at one point, you know, if I didn't know any better, I would have thought I was dealing with aliens at one point. I mean, the creatures, these weird entities that were appearing in his room, he would have thought that maybe they were aliens, you know. (2:18:43)

So I kind of wanted this interview with Richard talking about his optical camouflage technology to be in UFO magazine so that people reading the magazine might read it and think, you know, maybe I need to stop and rethink what I think my experiences are. (2:18:57)

And I'm not implying that every single UFO experience is a result of this technology. Because obviously there are reports going back hundreds, maybe even thousands of years. So I'm not saying that. But I am saying that, like I said before, with the two men in black stories I mentioned, they, quote, they, unquote, are very familiar with the mythology, with the folklore, with the real paranormal phenomenon that's happening, and I think they use it to their advantage. (2:19:33)

And again, this is speculation. I can't prove that. And that's the time-honored purpose of fiction. That's why I wrote the second book, Spies and Saucers, which is a collection of three novellas that take place in the 1950s. And the first story is called The Fallen Nun. And it starts out with this nun, this dead nun falling out of the sky and landing face down in this guy's marijuana garden up in Malibu. And the guy has to think, oh, no, I've got to call the police. (2:20:06)

But if I call the police, they're going to see the marijuana garden. I don't know what to do. Then at that moment, there's a knock at the door. There's two FBI agents, and they want to search the place because they're looking for this nun. Now, it then ties into UFOs and smoking the skin of a dead reptilian alien, which triggers time travel and all kinds of other weird stuff. (2:20:31)

Quite frankly, I think it's brilliant. Now, this is a novel. This is a novel. Or rather, it's a collection of three novellas that all kind of intersect. And they're all about spies and saucers. And the last novella is called Spies and Saucers. And that story is about a screenwriter who's kind of down on his luck because he got caught up in the whole communist blacklist thing. (2:21:00)

And he's known for writing kind of B-science fiction horror films. But he gets caught up in the blacklist, even though he went to a few communist meetings a few times to try to get laid, but he didn't really care about communism at all. But now it's coming back to bite him on the ass. And so he can't get any work as a screenwriter, and his landlady is threatening to kick him out. (2:21:28)

And suddenly this guy steps in and says, well, we want to hire you to work on the screenplay. And it's this mysterious guy, and it's made clear to him that this is some sort of government operation, and that it's top secret, and he can't talk about it. And they give him plot points that they want in the screenplay. And they go, we're hiring you because we're really interested in these science fiction films that you did. (2:21:51)

We think you have a very interesting imaginative mind. And as the story unfolds, he doesn't really understand what he's working on, because everything is compartmentalized. But later on, he begins to realize that he's actually creating the entire mythology that will become the alien abduction phenomenon. (2:22:09)

But he's making it up, and they're using it in real life operations. And he becomes feeling very guilty, because he realizes that he's making up all the stuff that's being used to make people think this is happening to them. And then he sets out to try to get out of this operation without getting killed. And so, that's an example of using fiction to talk about something that I think that this is exactly how it happened. (2:22:39)

But I have no way of proving that that's the case. And there's actually... yeah, go on. When you look at the abduction scenario, though, it ties back into fairy abductions and stuff in olden times. So, I mean, there is an archetype there that was already in place. And it's changed. And then you have, and one of the things I wanted to talk to you about before we run out of time, is the whole military abduction angle. (2:23:06)

And I've never dug too far into this, but... I guess my thing is, like, I hesitate anytime someone recalls anything under hypnosis, first of all. And a lot of times when I hear about military abduction stuff, as well as a lot of abduction stuff, it's not that I think the stuff doesn't happen, but I want stuff that's not hypnotically achieved, you know what I mean? (2:23:30)

You should talk to Melinda Leslie, because she has experiences. She has had hypnoregression, however, there are experiences that she remembers without that at all. And those are the ones I'm more interested in. One of those is, I mentioned earlier in the last segment, I think, that the mass abduction. She was involved in this mass abduction in 2010 in Arizona, and her and like five other people. (2:23:56)

Well, because she was with five other people, and after they returned them all, I think it was because there were six of them all together, they immediately started comparing notes when they woke up the next morning. And I think the fact that there was more than just one person enabled them to remember a lot of details without any regression whatsoever, even though they gave them some sort of mind-wiping drug. (2:24:18)

It's this kind of liquid, this pinkish liquid that they give everyone that helps obscure your memories. But I think that if it happens to a bunch of people at once, it's somewhat less traumatic, because it's something that's a shared experience. And so you might want to have her on the show and talk to her, particularly ask her about that particular event, that mass abduction in 2010, because it's extremely fascinating, the amount of details that she does remember about it. (2:24:49)

Now, does she have what she thinks are actual abduction experiences along with the military abductions? Yes, she feels she's an alien abductee, and then immediately after the alien abduction, the military will come in and re-abduct her and grill her about what did you see? How did the spaceship work? How does it work? It's all technology. They're all gearheads. (2:25:13)

How does the spaceship work? Because they want to be able to know how to back-engineer that. And very often with these my lab cases, they will describe the military abduction being far more traumatic than what the aliens did to them, which... imagine that, you know. My personal feelings, at least at the moment, because they do change, is that we're not dealing with aliens in the classical sense, but that we're dealing with something that conforms more to something that's trying to actually transform us. (2:25:51)

Because you get grey aliens in DMT experiences. You get them in shamanistic journeys and things like that. And I think that's kind of what we're dealing with, is something that is beyond us, that changes its face based on what we believe. So I wouldn't, you know, not everyone has traumatic abduction experiences. Some people go through these experiences and come out with very positive results. (2:26:17)

Yes. In fact, the fellow I mentioned earlier, Christopher Bledsoe, he was suffering from Crohn's disease. He owned a construction company and he had to get rid of it because he couldn't run it anymore. Then he had this abduction experience. It was the Crohn's disease, which if you know anything about it, is very crippling. Yeah, it's horrible. He would wake up every morning praying for a good day, just to get through the day. After the abduction experience, it all went away. (2:26:47)

And that also lends to the idea that it's probably not military at that point because, you know, unless they have cures for everything. Right. No, absolutely. I agree with you. That's why I very much like Jacques Vallée's book, Passport to Magonia, which analyzes the historical parallels between the fairy legends and modern abduction and how much they're the same. And in fact, going back to literature, which is, you know, I mean, I teach creative writing. I teach creative writing and literature classes. (2:27:30)

Go back and read Washington Irving, the first really great American short story writer, Washington Irving wrote Rip Van Winkle. And I really, I seriously recommend everyone go back and read that story. It's about a man who's taken by little people. He falls asleep in a crop circle. It's essentially described as a crop circle. He falls asleep in the circle. The little people tell him they take him underground. They give him a liquid to drink. And then he comes back. He has missing time. And supposedly Washington Irving was told the story by people in the Appalachians, which is exactly where the story takes place. (2:28:14)

So writers, you know, they hear these stories. They can't prove that they're real. So they create fictions and they come down to us through these fictions. And whether it's Washington Irving or the Spies and Saucers books I just told you about, you get evidence of this through fiction. And definitely the sort of ultra-terrestrial theory of John Keel, Jacques Vallée, has always been more where I... it seems the most reasonable explanation because it overlaps so many different areas at once. (2:28:56)

If you go back and read some of the books in the 50s about the UFO contactees, a lot of the more mainstream view was not even to talk about what was in the Flying Saucer. They're just nuts and bolts. They're interested in UFO sightings and they didn't even want to acknowledge that there could be something in it. (2:29:17)

And then eventually you get someone like Albert K. Bender who wrote Flying Saucers and the Three Men, which is about early men in black stuff. That book is so odd. It's extremely peculiar and at the time people said it was just that he was utterly crazy. But it seems very prescient. (2:30:07)

He recently died in LA only a couple years ago, Albert Bender. In that book, if you read it now from today's perspective, there's a lot of it that seems extremely prescient. He merges occult, black magic, paranormal, UFOs, and every passing year it seems more and more relevant, even though that book was considered just the goofiest book imaginable when it came out in 1962. Yeah, well, his whole encounter with the Three Men is basically he created it through a magical ritual. (2:30:15)

Oh yeah, yeah, that's true. I guess there's a couple things I want to slip in here real quick. We still have a few minutes. One of the things I noticed, and I can't say I find this surprising considering his lifestyle, but it seems like Dion doesn't remember all this. When you're talking to Richard, you have to kind of tell the stories because Dion seems to not quite remember them right. (2:30:44)

It's funny, that's always been the case. Okay. I mean, so I don't know how much of it is from the trauma. I mean, even before all this happened, sometimes he would tell me something and he would say, oh, you know, this happened when I was 13. And I would say, Damien, that happened when I knew you. I met you when I was 16. And I have when you were 16. He's like, no, no, no, that happened when I was 13. And I'm like, no. (2:31:12)

So that's one reason why I'm so glad I was recording everything as it was happening. Because I locked down the details as it was happening. And in fact, it was one particular thing. He read the book, obviously. And he was like, you know, I think you got this one thing wrong. And so I had to play it back to him. This is what you said at the time, you know, so it's good to it's good to take notes. I recommend everyone. (2:31:49)

Oh, yeah, yeah. No matter the circumstance, even if it's not a paranormal phenomenon, take notes. Yes. So I had I had this one experience I was going to throw to you just to see what you thought of it, because this one happened last summer, I think it was. Yeah, it had to be last summer. So I have a computer repair shop on my property and I had the doors open because it was nice and I'd walked out to get the mail and I was walking back toward the house and sort of in the direction of the shop, I heard a almost electronic sound like cuckoo. (2:32:27)

And it was really loud. What the hell was that? And I'm thinking, did Windows 10 come up with some new sound? And that was one of the computers that was updating like what? (2:32:37)

I better go check what this is. And as I start walking toward the shop, I see what's basically an invisible bubble, like it's this small bubble the size of like a large bird, maybe. And it's like. Moving in a straight line directly between me and the store and it eventually disappears along the side of the store to a tree, but it it made no noise, it was almost just like a distortion field. (2:33:04)

And like I could see through it, but everything was distorted, circularly distorted like a bubble. And then it was just gone. I couldn't figure out where it went. Like I ran over to the tree and there was just nothing there. And I'm thinking, OK, was that paranormal or was that some new kind of drone that they're zipping around here? Right. Now, when you say invisible bubble, do you mean it was like transparent? Is that what you mean by? (2:33:27)

Yes, I could. Yeah, I could see it, but I could only see it because it was distorting the stuff behind. I see. Like had I not been looking right at it, I wouldn't have seen. Right. That's exactly how Bruce McAbee's wife described that entity she saw in the woods, exactly the same way. You had to be looking directly at it to see the distortion. (2:33:48)

And had I not started walking toward the shop at that very moment after hearing that noise, it wouldn't have moved in front of me. So it was kind of a weird one-two punch. I'm like, OK, that was odd. Did it literally sound like a cuckoo clock? It made like a very distinct cuckoo noise, but it sounded like it was electronic, so it had a slight distortion to it. (2:34:11)

OK, so the sound was definitely coming from the bubble. I don't know. I heard the sound and then a few seconds later, like I said initially, I thought it must have been a computer that did it in the shop, but it was really loud, you know, like for coming from inside the shop. You know what? Christopher Bledsoe, when he mentioned his son seeing those two invisible entities wearing the goggles, he said that there was something about their weird eyes, the goggles slash eyes, that he said it almost looked digital. (2:34:49)

And so there's this weird component to some of these things where people see them and they're not quite sure, are they flesh beings or are they computers or are they holograms? You know, there's something about them where they seem to be alive and at the same time, they almost seem like created electronic beings. And that's the case, you know, quoting Bender, you know, in Gray Barker's book, the first book he wrote, They Knew Too Much About Flying Saucers, which was about Bender. He talks about the Flatwoods monster and in there, it's sort of like, it's a robot, but it's an alien and it's, you know, what is it? This weird hybrid of technology and some kind of living being. Yeah, that's fascinating. (2:35:46)

And that Flatwoods monster, I think, is another case of potentially the government experimenting on American citizens. (2:35:56)

Oh, sure. There's a lot of cases where, for example, Betty and Barney Hill, where they describe the people who abducted them as, they even at one point, he even describes them as wearing like uniforms that almost look like Nazi uniforms, which is, you know, why would aliens be wearing that? I have a lot of questions about that. (2:36:41)

And in fact, they were my labs. If you have Melinda Leslie on, talk to her about that, because she actually knows a little bit about that. They weren't just alien abductees, they were also my labs. Betty and Barney Hill. Interesting. Yeah, there's a lot of sketchy stuff in there, not from Betty and Barney Hill themselves, but like around that whole situation that makes it look very suspicious and ties into the military. (2:36:55)

Oh, yeah, definitely. But with my experience, that's the first time I think I've had something like that happen that seemed like it could be technology. Like, I've had a lot of very weird things happen into my life, and none of them came across to me as being anything that could be technological, as we know. Whereas this felt like it was a drone almost that just zipped in front of me, and it was like, but I couldn't see it. (2:37:23)

It almost sounds like, you ever seen Earth vs. the Flying Saucers? The Ray Harryhausen film? At some point. There's a little spherical drone that almost looks like a little flying globe of light that flies around, but it's actually a flying camera. And it's spying on the scientists as they're trying to create this sonic weapon to shoot the flying saucer out of the air. (2:37:47)

And now you may say, well, so what? It's a science fiction movie. But what's interesting is that the film was written by Kurt Siadomac, and Kurt Siadomac claimed in an autobiography that he wrote right before he died, it was published in 2000, and he died just a few months before the autobiography came out. He claimed in there that he was approached by the OSS after he published his book, Donovan's Brain, which is all about, Donovan's Brain was a bestseller, a science fiction novel about basically creating remote control killers, killing people from afar, action at a distance, as they like to call it in the military. (2:38:26)

And the guy who recruited Siadomac read Donovan's Brain and thought that the Donovan in the title was W.H. Donovan, the head of the OSS. He actually thought that Siadomac was writing about W.H. Donovan. So he recruited Kurt Siadomac and he said, we'd like you to write and work for us, which was part of the inspiration for the story I just told you about spies and saucers. (2:38:49)

Because I wondered, well, what was he doing for them? And why? He doesn't go into detail about it. He goes into detail about the first meeting and being hired and how they thought that Donovan was a reference to W.H. Donovan and that he worked for them for many years during World War II and afterwards. (2:39:10)

And then later on, if you see the movies that he writes, Earth vs. Flying Saucers and particularly a movie called Creature with the Atom Brain, which is all about reanimating the dead and using them as mind control assassins. And there's even a reference in the middle of the movie to Jose Delgado, who wrote the book Physical Control of the Mind. And Jose Delgado was a mind control scientist from Spain who was recruited by the CIA and worked for Yale. And he was the grandfather of mind control technology. (2:39:48)

He experimented on mental patients and children and writes about it in Physical Control of the Mind. Oddly enough, weird synchronicity, Jose Delgado retired to sunny San Diego and died in 2011. And he was living in San Diego at the time all this happened to Damien in 2003, 2004. Wow. All right. One more time, tell people where they can get the book. Not on Amazon. Well, at the moment, you can't get it on Amazon because you can go to Amazon if you want to pay $1,000 to some crazy person who's selling it for that much. (2:40:29)

But you can get it for $18 from ORBOOKS, O-R-B-O-O-K-S, ORBOOKS. The print version for $18, the e-book is about $10. So ORBOOKS.com. And your blog? My blog is cryptoscatology.com. C-R-Y-P-T-O-S-C-A-T-O-L-O-G-Y. I make it easy on people to find it. All right. Is there anywhere else that people can find you? Well, by the way, the other books, like Until Last Dog Dies, the novel, and Spies and Saucers, and Cryptoscatology, my first book, those you can get on Amazon for a reasonable price. (2:40:59)

It's just cameo that you want to go and get it from ORBOOKS.com. Yes, and the blog is cryptoscatology.com. And if you want to contact me through, if you have your own, if you're being gang stalked or you had similar experiences and you want to contact me, you can send me an email through the cryptoscatology site. Oh, okay. Perfect. Thank you so much for spending time with us talking about all this. (2:41:29)

It was very illuminating. I want to take a moment here to thank all of my Patreons. It's because of you, this show is able to exist. And I want to give a special shout out to those pledging $10 or more. Superinframan, Alison Cook, Eric Hervin, John Blackburn, Ken Hunt, Chris Cordner, Dan Eckert, Tim, Jim and Sophie, Beverly Williamson, Joel Thomas Runyon, Empty K, Nagatha Christie, Patricia W, Barbara Fisher, Will Powell, BigBoyLimina, Craig Parmenter, Walker, Joanna Rojas, Maddie, David Moore, Vincent Trewell, Stone Wilderness, Luke Osborne, Becky Trainor, Rob Drummond, Alex Whitcomb, Edu Camelhort, Tactical Therapist, Janet Bunderson, 36Dingo, Taylor, Sam Sharon, Jennifer Campbell, American Rambler, Kevin, Chris Ernst, Andy McNamara, Sedger, Dominic O'Malley, Riker and Stark, J Otto Bullitt, Jose A, Charles Davis, Roger Gonzalez, Craig Cisernos, Ray Benedetto, Linds Jackson Kay, Alfred Tuttle, Kevin Schreck, Patricia Gaia Quinta, William Lovelace, Mark Brady, Ad Noctem, Carla Mahoney, and James Lattimore. Thank you all so very much. (2:42:53)

You have been listening to Where Did The Road Go? This show is made possible in part from our Patreons, and we thank you and everyone listening for helping us continue this exploration of the strange. You can always find everything Where Did The Road Go? related at www.wheredidtheroadgo.com. And thank you so much for your support. (2:43:17)

(2025-05-17)

前置き​

AI生成の解説（音声対話）​

Youtube 動画(2:43:21)​

対話​

Robert Guffey氏の紹介と執筆活動​

Robert Guffey氏と陰謀文化、Damienとの関係​

Damien氏に起こった主要な事件（「話者が事実と主張している事柄」）​

Robert Guffey氏が信じるに至った経緯​

Richard Schonger氏とProject Cameleo​

Gang Stalkingと標的​

Robert Guffey氏自身の体験​

その他の関連する主張や情報​

書籍やブログへの情報​

前置き