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Ron Felber : Mojave Incident を語る

· 215 min read

前置き​

この事件は

  • 空を覆い尽くす巨大 UFO が出現し、魔物的 ET が多数出現し、さらに天使が登場

という劇的な事件で、過去記事でも何度も取り上げた。

今回は AI で整理した。過去記事と違って事件の細部の遺漏がない筈。遺漏がないが、NoteboolLM の特徴として特定の項目（＝章）ごとに細部が重複している。この重複は欠点でもあるが、特定の章だけを読んでもある程度理解できる（＝別記事からのリンクでタイトル・レベルに格上げが可能）という長所にもなっている。

動画の 7:33--2:31:18 の部分が該当。

この事件は

  • UFO/ET 現象に悪魔的存在と天使が直接関与し、
  • ヒッチハイカー現象も付随

しているという点で注目されている。この事件に関する私の判断は末尾で述べる。

概要​

AI

モハベの遭遇：ロン・フェルバーの物語

提示された資料は、ノンフィクション作家である‌‌ロン・フェルバー‌‌が、彼にとって一番のベストセラーとなった「モハベ事件」という著書について語るポッドキャストの転写です。

この本は、彼が当初は懐疑的であったにもかかわらず、‌‌UFOと地球外生命体との遭遇‌‌について深く調査した結果、真実であると確信した‌‌実際の出来事‌‌を詳述しています。

ポッドキャストでは、彼がどのようにしてライターになったか、そして‌‌モハベ砂漠‌‌での‌‌恐ろしい遭遇‌‌を経験したと主張するカップル、‌‌ギフォード夫妻‌‌と出会った経緯が説明されています。この恐ろしい遭遇には、‌‌UFO‌‌の目撃、‌‌電気的な存在‌‌による監禁、そして彼らの‌‌精神と感情を操作‌‌する‌‌地球外生命体‌‌による‌‌拷問のような経験‌‌が含まれていました。

目次​

  1. 前置き
  2. 概要
  3. 詳細
    1. ロン・フェルバーの背景と執筆キャリア：
    2. 『モハベの遭遇』のきっかけ：
    3. モハベ事件の詳細（ギフォード夫妻の遭遇）：
    4. 遭遇後の影響と調査：
    5. 退行催眠セッションからの啓示：
    6. フェルバー氏の変容とUFO現象への見解：
    7. ギフォード夫妻のその後：
    8. 結論：
  4. Ron Felber の背景
  5. 砂漠での遭遇
  6. 覚醒と混乱
    1. 覚醒 (Awakening)
    2. 混乱 (Confusion)
  7. 自宅での継続的現象
  8. 調査と検証
    1. ロン・フェルバーの初期の視点と動機
    2. ギフォード夫妻の信頼性と検証の必要性
    3. 実施された調査と検証のステップ
    4. 遭遇後の継続的な影響と非物理的検証
    5. ロン・フェルバーの最終的な結論と自己変革
  9. その後の夫妻
    1. 遭遇直後の精神的・身体的影響
    2. 調査と検証への協力
    3. 長期的な影響と対処法
  10. 宗教的解釈
    1. ギフォード夫妻の宗教への傾倒と司教の解釈
    2. 退行催眠における「神学的」な啓示
    3. ロン・フェルバー自身の見解と二元論
    4. UFO現象と宗教の関連性
  11. Ron Felber の UFO の夢
    1. ロン・フェルバーの個人的なUFO体験（夢）
    2. 夢の体験がロンの執筆と世界観に与えた影響
    3. ギフォード夫妻の体験との関連性
  12. 時系列
  13. 主要関係者
  14. コメント
  15. 情報源
  16. 文字起こし

詳細​

AI

要約書：「モハベの遭遇」

本ブリーフィングドキュメントは、作家ロン・フェルバー氏が自身が出版したノンフィクション書籍『モハベの遭遇』の背景とその影響について語ったポッドキャストの文字起こしに基づいています。フェルバー氏は、UFO現象に対する個人的な懐疑から始まり、彼の人生を変え、UFOや地球外生命体に関する彼の見解を決定的に形成した出来事について詳述しています。

主要テーマと重要なアイデア/事実：

ロン・フェルバーの背景と執筆キャリア：​

  • フェルバー氏は、フィクションとノンフィクションの作家であり、テレビやドキュメンタリー映画にも携わっています。
  • 元は副保安官であり、『True Detective Magazine』に寄稿していました。
  • 小説家としては、象徴的なニック・カーターシリーズの作品も執筆しました（例：『The Blue Ice Affair』、『Death Mission Havana』、『Blood Ultimatum』）。
  • 執筆への関心は6年生の時に教師に才能を見出されたことに端を発します。「彼女は私のところにやってきて、『これは最高の論文ではないが、最もユニークな論文だ。君には書く才能がある』と言いました。」
  • 警察官としての経験は、犯罪者やテロリストなど、様々な人物との出会いを通じて、彼の執筆に貴重なキャラクターや会話の素材を提供しました。「出会った人々、犯罪者、ヒットマン、テロリスト、キューバに飛行機をハイジャックして戻ってきた連中、魅力的な人々。いい人たちではなかったが、魅力的な人々でした。」

『モハベの遭遇』のきっかけ：​

  • フェルバー氏のUFO現象への関心は、個人的な信念からではなく、ビジネス上の友人の依頼から始まりました。その友人の親友とその妻が「秘密」を抱えており、心理的に「ぼろぼろ」だったからです。
  • フェルバー氏は当初、UFO関連のジャンルには乗り気ではありませんでした。彼の専門はスパイ小説やサスペンススリラーだったからです。「彼は私を彼らに紹介しました。そして私は言いました、ここにいる二人の人物は、教育水準も高く…彼（夫）はショッピングセンター建設のプロジェクトマネージャーです。つまり、彼は数百万ドルを扱い、労働者を扱っています。これは、ただの誰かではありません。彼は本当に責任感のある人物です。」
  • 彼は、この夫婦が「話をでっちあげる理由」がないと感じ、彼らの話の信憑性を確信しました。彼らの話は彼がこれまで聞いた中で「最も信じられない話」でした。
  • 信憑性を確認するため、フェルバー氏は夫婦をワシントンD.C.の国立精神医学センターに連れて行き、幻想に陥りやすい傾向や精神的な不安定さがないかを評価させました。結果は「アメリカの根幹をなすような」「非常に堅実な人々」であるというものでした。
  • さらに、彼はFBIの退行催眠術師に夫婦を催眠術にかけさせました。このセッションで「信じられない本、つまり『モハベの遭遇』という信じられない物語が生まれました。」

モハベ事件の詳細（ギフォード夫妻の遭遇）：​

  • 時期と場所： 1989年10月21日と22日、モハベ砂漠。
  • 遭遇の経緯： ギフォード夫妻（夫のトムはハンター、妻のエリスは新米ママ）は、狩猟と妻の気分転換を兼ねてモハベ砂漠へキャンプに出かけました。当初予定していたキャンプ場が満員だったため、砂漠の奥地で野営することになりました。
  • UFOの目撃： トムは最初に「卓上山」の向こうにUFOをちらりと見ましたが、すでにナーバスになっていた妻に伝えませんでした。その後、砂漠の動物の鳴き声が止まり、トムは12歳の時に友人と見た同様の光景を思い出しました。
  • 複数UFOと「M」字型： エリスが空に「三重星」のような異常に明るい物体に気づき、それが9つの物体に分裂して「M」字型を形成し、互いに点滅し始めました。「9つの物体は何百にもなり、そして地面に落下し始めました。」
  • クリーチャーの出現： 地面に降りた白い球体は、「赤い目」を持つ「グレムリン」のような生き物であることが判明し、夫婦のキャンピングカーに向かって突進してきました。
  • 監禁とテレパシー： トムは散弾銃とライフルで武装しましたが、夫婦はテレパシーで「戦うな。無駄だ。キャンピングカーの後ろに行け」というメッセージを受け取りました。彼らは催眠術にかかったようにキャンピングカーの後部座席に移動し、そこにあった2つの「モニター」（電気的な物体）によって身動きが取れなくなりました。「キャンピングカーは今や牢屋になったかのようでした。」
  • 「母船」と実験： 巨大な「母船」（フットボール場ほどの大きさ）が谷を覆い、その下には9つの小型UFOがぶら下がっていました。光のビームが降り注ぎ、サボテン、木、牛、昆虫など、あらゆるものを吸い上げていきました。
  • 発光する存在と精神的拷問： 9体の「発光する存在」（体は5歳児ほどで、細い手足、瞳孔のない大きな球状の目を持つ）がキャンピングカーを取り囲みました。彼らはテレパシーで夫婦の「経験を吸い出す」ような精神的拷問を開始しました。エリスは幼少期の性的暴行を、トムはハンターであるにもかかわらず自分が狩られる恐怖を再体験させられました。彼らは「動物園の動物」「顕微鏡下のバクテリア」のように扱われました。
  • 安堵の霧と動機： 夫婦が心臓発作を起こしそうになった時、麻酔のような「霧」がキャンピングカーに充満し、彼らを落ち着かせました。これは彼らを憐れむためではなく、実験を続けるために生かしておくためでした。「彼らが関心を持っていたのは肺でした。彼らが関心を持っていたのは腎臓でした。彼らが関心を持っていたのは脳でした。彼らが関心を持っていたのは生殖器系でした。これはそういうことでした。」
  • 天使のような存在： 恐ろしい体験の最中に、夫婦は雲の中から「天使のような存在」が現れるのを目撃しました。その存在は「大丈夫、終わるだろう、あなたは生き残るだろう」というメッセージを伝え、彼らの「慰め主」となりました。これはフェルバー氏にとって、この物語が「聖書的」な側面を持つ可能性を示唆しています。
  • 時間の喪失と発見： 翌朝、彼らはキャンプファイヤーが消え、時間が経過していることに気づきました。当初は世界の終わりか、ロシアの爆弾投下かと考えましたが、ラジオからはカントリーウェスタンソングが流れているだけで、何も報じられていませんでした。

遭遇後の影響と調査：​

  • 心理的影響： ギフォード夫妻は「悪夢」「フラッシュバック」「PTSD」に苦しみ、日常生活に支障をきたしました。彼らは常に「監視されている」と感じていました。
  • 子供への影響： 4歳の息子も「小さな赤い目のモンスター」に部屋で襲われるという悪夢を見、錯乱状態になりました。
  • 妊娠： エリスは、宇宙人に見られていると感じた夜に性交渉をしていないにもかかわらず妊娠したと主張しました。
  • 調査と検証： フェルバー氏は、夫婦が精神的な問題を抱えていないことを確認するために、精神科医のベルナード・バートーネ博士（ジョージタウン大学医学部卒）に2日間の検査を依頼しました。結果は「非常に普通の人間」「知能は平均よりやや高い」というもので、ファンタジーに傾倒する傾向もないとされました。
  • 退行催眠： 元FBIの退行催眠術師で精神科医のウィリアム・アニクスター博士の協力のもと、夫婦は催眠術を受けました。このセッションで驚くべき「答え」が得られました。

退行催眠セッションからの啓示：​

  • 宇宙人の目的： エリスは催眠状態において、宇宙人は「人類と接触したい」と述べました。彼らは人類の「反応を研究」し、感情を持たない彼らが「人間を理解する」ために、人間が彼らを「教える」必要があると語りました。
  • 宇宙人の起源と「一つ至高の存在」： エリスは「5つの銀河があり、彼らの銀河は次に近い」と述べました。そして、「全ての5つの銀河がいつか協力するために、彼らは始めなければならず、彼らは私たちから始めている」と語りました。彼らは「一つ至高の存在」（One Supreme）によって「使命」を与えられており、その存在は「神のようなもの」であり、全ての銀河が「調和して共に生きる」ことを望んでいると述べました。
  • 「我々の宇宙は彼らの宇宙が始まる場所で終わる」： エリスは、「我々の宇宙は彼らの宇宙が始まる場所で終わる。我々の宇宙は、その全ての物質が私たちにとって重要でなくなり、彼らにとって重要になり始めた時に終わる」という深い言葉を述べました。フェルバー氏は、これは人間が地球を大切にしなくなった時に、宇宙人が地球を大切にし始めることを意味すると解釈しています。
  • 聖書との関連： エリスは「一つ至高の存在」について尋ねられた際、「聖書を読め」と答えました。これは、この遭遇が科学的な側面だけでなく、精神的、宗教的な解釈も可能であることを示唆しています。
  • 遭遇の時期： 宇宙人との主要な遭遇は「私たちの子供たちの世代の間に」起こると予測されました。
  • 「チャネリング」の可能性： フェルバー氏は、催眠状態のエリスの言葉が、まるで彼女が「チャネリング」しているかのようであり、通常の彼女の話し方や知識レベルからは考えられないと述べました。

フェルバー氏の変容とUFO現象への見解：​

  • 懐疑から確信へ： フェルバー氏は、当初UFO現象の「非信者」でしたが、ギフォード夫妻の信頼性、調査結果、そして催眠状態での啓示によって、地球外の乗り物が地球を訪れているという「証拠は圧倒的」であると確信するようになりました。「どんな判事でも、この証拠を見たら、確かに可能であり、おそらくそうであり、ほとんど確実だと言うでしょう。」
  • 政府のディスクロージャー（情報開示）への懐疑： フェルバー氏は、政府からの真のディスクロージャーの可能性は「非常に、非常に低い」と考えています。政府はロズウェルなどの多くの秘密を隠蔽しようとしているからです。彼は、真のディスクロージャーは「文字通り、人々がUFOか小人がホワイトハウスの芝生に歩いて出てくることを望む」ような「主要な出来事」を通じて起こると考えています。
  • 宇宙人訪問の不可避性： 彼は、宇宙人と人類の間の「主要な遭遇」が「必然的に」起こると信じており、それは「私たちの子供たちの世代の間に」起こると予測しています。社会はCOVID-19パンデミック中の人々の行動に見られたように、その準備ができていない可能性があると認識しつつも、それが起こることは避けられないと考えています。
  • UFO現象への持続的な関心： 彼はこの主題に「少し obsesseするようになった」と述べ、関連するあらゆるメディアを消費しています。
  • 個人的な夢と経験： フェルバー氏自身も、非常に鮮明な「夢」の中でUFOに乗り込み、宇宙人に会う経験をしており、それが現実の一部であると感じています。彼はこの夢を退行催眠でさらに探求したいと考えています。
  • 精神性への影響： 彼はこの経験が自身を「より精神的に」変えたと述べ、人生の目的や宇宙における人類の位置について深く考えるようになりました。「私は人生の後の世界を信じます。私は精神世界を信じます。私は人類が創造されて以来、何千年もの間、私たちが監視されてきたと信じます。ある意味で、それは聖書的だと信じます。」
  • 『モハベの遭遇』のユニークさ： フェルバー氏は、『モハベの遭遇』が彼のキャリアにおける「最高のUFO本」であり、これ以上の物語は書けないと信じています。この物語は、「意識的」な経験と「潜在意識的」な退行催眠による情報の両方を含み、信憑性のある二人の人物によって支えられているからです。彼はこれを「別の現実への一瞥」と表現しています。

ギフォード夫妻のその後：​

  • 彼らは「熱心なモルモン教徒」となり、ユタ州に移住しました。彼らの司教は、彼らの体験を「悪魔と天使」の関わる「宗教的な体験」として解釈し、公に話さないよう助言しました。
  • 夫妻は、過去の体験を「埋めよう」としており、フェルバー氏との連絡も希薄になりました。しかし、彼らは今でも「監視されている」という感覚や悪夢に苦しんでいます。トムは「毎日毎晩、家族を守りたいと思いながら、自分自身さえ守れないということがどんなことか知っていますか？なぜなら、彼らが見えるか見えないかに関わらず、彼らを感じることができ、彼らはあなたの中に、あなたの脳の中に生きているかのようで、彼らが望む時に、望むことを何でもできる、そしてそれに対してあなたは何もできないからです。」と述べています。

結論：​

ロン・フェルバー氏の『モハベの遭遇』に関する証言は、単なるUFO遭遇の物語を超えたものです。それは、UFO現象が個人の信念体系をどのように変えるか、そしてそれが人類の存在、精神性、そして宇宙における我々の位置について、より深い疑問をどのように引き起こすかを探求しています。

この物語は、科学的な調査と退行催眠によって裏付けられた、複雑で多層的な出来事であり、地球外生命体の存在と、彼らが人類の未来に与える可能性のある影響についての彼の確信を決定的に形成しました。フェルバー氏は、政府によるディスクロージャーの可能性を低いと見なしつつも、人類と宇宙人の間のより公的な接触は不可避であり、それは私たちの子供たちの世代に起こるだろうと予測しています。

Ron Felber の背景​

AI

ソースによると、「モハベの遭遇」のより大きな文脈におけるロン・フェルバーの背景は、彼の多岐にわたる執筆キャリアと、UFO現象に対する彼の見解を劇的に変えたモハベ事件への関与によって特徴づけられます。

ロン・フェルバーの背景とキャリアの主な側面は以下の通りです。

  • ‌‌初期の執筆キャリアと影響‌‌:

    • フェルバーは、フィクションとノンフィクションの両方の著者であり、テレビ番組やドキュメンタリー映画にも携わっています。
    • 彼の執筆への関心は‌‌小学6年生‌‌から始まり、教師にその才能を見出されました。彼は野球選手ウィリー・メイズについての作文を書き、教師から「最もユニークな論文」だと評価されました。
    • 中学1年生の頃には短編小説を書き始め、兄の高校の雑誌に掲載されるようになりました。最終的には、学術雑誌に約30編の物語を掲載し、短編小説で全国賞を受賞しました。
    • ジョージタウン大学在学中に、‌‌『エクソシスト』の著者であるウィリアム・ピーター・ブラッティ‌‌と出会い、彼がフェルバーのメンターとなりました。ブラッティは、貧しい家庭に育ちながらも奨学金を得てジョージタウンに進学し、コメディ作家として成功を収めました。彼の経験、特に1949年の「憑依された少年」に関する新聞記事との出会いは、後に『エクソシスト』の執筆につながりました。
    • フェルバーが最初に書いた小説は、『インディアン・ポイントの陰謀』というタイトルの、テロリストが原子力発電所を乗っ取るという内容でした。

  • ‌‌警察官としての経験と執筆への転換‌‌:

    • 大学卒業後、4万ドルの学費ローンを返済するため、景気後退期に副保安官として職を得ました。彼は囚人の移送を担当し、この仕事は彼にとって当時は不本意なものでしたが、‌‌執筆の観点からは「これまでで最も重要なこと」‌‌であったと振り返っています。
    • この経験を通じて、彼は犯罪者、ヒットマン、テロリスト、飛行機をハイジャックした者など、‌‌「魅力的だが、良い人ではない」人々‌‌と出会いました。これらの人物像は、彼が『トゥルー・ディテクティブ・マガジン』に寄稿した作品や、後の小説の登場人物に活かされました。彼は、作家はリスのように「巣にどんぐりをしまっておき、必要なときに一つずつ取り出す」というノーマン・メイラーの言葉を引用し、これらの経験が彼の執筆の源となったと述べています。
    • 執筆は、副保安官というストレスの多い仕事からの‌‌「はけ口」‌‌として機能しました。

  • ‌‌UFO現象への関与と「モハベの遭遇」‌‌:

    • 当初、フェルバーはUFOについてあまり考えておらず、UFOの存在を信じていませんでした。彼は子供の頃、ロッド・サーリングの『トワイライト・ゾーン』やフランク・エドワーズの『UFOs Serious Business』に興味を持ったことはありましたが、長じてからはUFOは「自分の考えから非常に遠いもの」でした。
    • UFOの世界に足を踏み入れたのは、カリフォルニアに住む、彼が雇った営業担当者であった友人ポール・モランがきっかけでした。モランは、彼の親友とその妻（作中ではギフォード夫妻）が秘密を抱えていて精神的に不安定であり、フェルバーが作家であることから彼らに会うべきだと提案しました。
    • フェルバーは当初、スパイ小説やサスペンススリラーを書いていたため、UFOのようなジャンルは「非常にかけ離れている」として‌‌乗り気ではありませんでした‌‌。
    • しかし、ギフォード夫妻に会うと、彼は彼らの‌‌「真面目さ、責任感の強さ、誇張や空想に陥らない点」‌‌に深く感銘を受け、彼らが「アメリカの屋台骨」のような人々であると感じました。
    • 夫妻の話を聞いた後、彼は彼らの話が真実であると確信し、その話を本にすることを決意しました。
    • 彼は、ギフォード夫妻をワシントンD.C.の国立精神医学センターに連れて行き、彼らが空想癖があるか、精神的に不安定でないかを評価してもらいました。その結果、彼らは「アメリカの屋台骨のような、非常に堅実な人々」であるとされました。さらに、彼はFBIの催眠術師に依頼し、夫妻の記憶を退行催眠でたどってもらいました。

  • ‌‌個人的な変化とUFO現象への見解‌‌:

    • 「モハベの遭遇」の執筆を通じて、フェルバーは‌‌UFO、すなわち地球を訪れる地球外生命体の乗り物に関する証拠は「圧倒的」である‌‌と確信するようになりました。彼は、どんな裁判官でもこの証拠を見れば、UFOの存在は「間違いなく可能であり、起こりうることであり、ほぼ確実である」と言うだろうと述べています。
    • 彼は「かなり分析的な人間」であり、事実を追求し、話の矛盾点や一貫性のなさを探しますが、ギフォード夫妻の話にはそれを見つけることができませんでした。
    • 彼はこのテーマに‌‌「少し執着するようになった」‌‌と語っており、現在もUFO関連のテレビ番組、YouTubeコンテンツ、記事など、あらゆるものを熱心に見聞きしています。
    • 彼のビジネス仲間たちは、当初彼がUFOの本を書くことを「少し頭がおかしい」と思っていましたが、彼が録音テープや催眠セッションの記録を共有すると、状況を理解しました。しかし、彼がUFOの存在を確信させたのは、その時点では一人もいませんでした。
    • フェルバーは、UFOの開示、または地球外生命体との‌‌大規模な遭遇が「避けられない」‌‌と考えており、彼の推測では、もし子供がいて50歳であれば、その子供たちの生涯に主要な遭遇が起こるだろうと述べています。
    • 政府による完全な開示は「非常に、非常に低い」可能性であると考えており、むしろ「宇宙船がホワイトハウスの芝生に着陸し、エイリアンが降りてくる」ような形で真実が明らかになる可能性が高いと見ています。
    • この経験はフェルバーを‌‌より精神的な人間‌‌にし、彼は「死後の世界」や「スピリチュアルな世界」の存在を信じるようになりました。また、人類が数千年にわたって監視されてきたという「聖書的な」見方にもつながると感じています。

  • ‌‌「モハベの遭遇」の位置づけ‌‌:

    • フェルバーは、UFOに関する他の本を書いていない理由として、「モハベの遭遇」のような別の物語は存在しないと考えているためだと述べています。彼はこの本を「UFOの決定版」と見なしており、これ以上に優れた本は書けないだろうと感じています。
    • この物語は、意識的な経験と無意識的な経験（退行催眠を通じて引き出されたもの）の両方を含み、二人の信頼できる人物が嘘発見器テストに合格し、精神科医によって分析されたという点で、‌‌比類のない範囲と深さ‌‌を持っていると強調しています。
    • 彼は、この物語が質問を投げかけるだけでなく、‌‌「いつエイリアンと人間の遭遇が起こるのか？」「彼らの使命は何か？」「一つの至高の存在とは誰か？」といった質問に「答え」を与えている‌‌点が「本当に珍しい」と考えています。

これらの詳細から、ロン・フェルバーは単なる作者ではなく、「モハベの遭遇」の物語を徹底的に調査し、その結果としてUFO現象に対する個人的な見解を根本的に変え、その重要性を深く信じるようになった人物であることがわかります。彼のバックグラウンドは、彼に物語を語る能力と、尋常ではない主張の信憑性を評価する批判的思考力を与えました。

砂漠での遭遇​

AI

「モハベの遭遇」のより大きな文脈において、砂漠での遭遇は、ギフォード夫妻（ソースでは仮名を使用）のUFO現象に対するロン・フェルバーの認識を根本的に変えた、中心的な出来事として描かれています。この遭遇は、意識的な経験と無意識的な経験の両方を含み、その比類ない詳細さと深さから、フェルバーが「UFOの決定版」と呼ぶ本の根幹を成しています。

砂漠での遭遇に関する主な詳細は以下の通りです。

  • ‌‌モハベ砂漠への旅の背景‌‌:

    • ギフォード夫妻は、ロン・フェルバーの友人で彼が雇った営業担当者であるポール・モランの親友とその妻です。
    • 彼らは、妻が新米の母親で家から出たがっていたことと、夫（トム）が昨年逃したミュールジカを狩りたいという思いから、1989年10月21日と22日にモハベ砂漠へ出かけました。
    • 計画では、途中のウィスキー・ピートに立ち寄り、ミッドランド・キャンプ場でキャンプをする予定でした。

  • ‌‌予定の変更と砂漠への侵入‌‌:

    • ミッドランド・キャンプ場に到着すると、そこが満員だったため、夫妻はキャンプをすることができませんでした。
    • そこでトムは、キャンピングカーと食料を持っているので、砂漠に入ってロマンチックな星空観察の夜を過ごそうと提案し、妻（エリーズ）も同意しました。

  • ‌‌遭遇の始まりと感覚の変化‌‌:

    • 彼らがキャンプファイヤーをしていると、トムは視界の端に何かを見たような気がしました。
    • エリーズは、砂漠の孤立した場所でギャングやアウトローに遭遇することを恐れており、すでに不安を感じていました。
    • 彼らが砂漠にいる間、通常夜には聞こえるはずの、リスのような小動物が餌を食べる音など、‌‌あらゆる音が突然止まりました‌‌。
    • トムは、12歳の時に友人と釣りをしていて光る物体に遭遇し、それが自分たちに近づいてくるのを見て逃げ出したという過去の経験を思い出しました。

  • ‌‌UFOの出現と編隊飛行‌‌:

    • トムが最初に見かけたのは、約300〜400フィート離れた場所にあるUFOでした。彼はエリーズを怖がらせないように、最初はそれを秘密にしていました。
    • エリーズは、空に「‌‌三重星‌‌」があることに気づき、それは空にある他の何よりも大きく、明るいものでした。
    • その後、その一つの物体が9つの物体に分裂し、彼らが見つめていた山頂上空で‌‌M字型の編隊‌‌を組みました。これらの明るい光の球体は、互いに点滅して通信しているようでした。
    • エリーズは軍事演習かと尋ねましたが、トムには分かりませんでした。
    • その後、数百もの物体になり、地面に落下し始めました。

  • ‌‌悪魔のような生物と電気ショックによる拘束‌‌:

    • 落下した白い球体からは、「‌‌グレムリン‌‌」のような赤い目の生物が現れ、夫妻に向かって突進してきました。
    • トムはイサカ散弾銃とブローニングライフルを手に取り、自分たちを守ろうとしました。
    • しかし、彼らは‌‌テレパシーによるメッセージ‌‌を受け取りました。最初はエリーズが「彼らはあなたと戦いたくない、無駄だ。キャンピングカーの後ろに行け」というメッセージを受け取り、トムも同じメッセージを受け取りました。
    • まるで催眠術にかかったかのように、彼らはキャンピングカーの後部に行き、そこにいた2つの「‌‌モニター‌‌」と呼ばれる電気的な物体によって閉じ込められました。
    • トムが動こうとすると、モニターから強烈な電気ショックを受け、彼らはキャンピングカーの中に閉じ込められ、刑務所の独房のようになりました。これらのグレムリンのような生物は、キャンピングカーの上や木々の中に何百もいました。

  • ‌‌マザーシップと探索機、そして意識の操作‌‌:

    • その後、彼らの上に‌‌フットボール競技場ほどの大きさの巨大な宇宙船‌‌が現れ、谷全体を覆いました。この船の腹部には、9つの小さな円盤型のUFOがぶら下がっていました。
    • 光のビームが降りてきて、周囲には「‌‌光のように明るい‌‌」9つの「‌‌発光体‌‌」がキャンピングカーを囲みました。これらの発光体は、5歳児の胴体と細い手足、瞳孔のない大きな球状の目を持つエイリアンの姿をしていました。
    • 光のビームはサボテン、木、家畜、昆虫などを吸い上げ、砂漠の盆地を「探索」しているようでした。これは、その地域で採掘されているレーザー兵器などに使われる希少な元素を探している可能性が示唆されました。
    • 同時に、「‌‌探索機‌‌」と呼ばれる赤、白、琥珀色の光を放つ小さな三角形の物体が、砂漠の底をくまなく探していました。
    • 発光体たちは、彼らの脳に注射器を刺して経験を吸い出すように、‌‌テレパシーで記憶や感情を引き出しました‌‌。これは、彼らが人間の感情の仕組みを理解するために行っているかのように見えました。
    • 彼らは、研究室の動物のように扱われ、恐怖、歓喜、屈辱など、人間のあらゆる感情を体験させられました。エリーズは子供の頃に襲われた経験を、トムはハンターとして追われ、撃たれ、皮を剥がれる経験を再体験させられました。彼らは泣き叫び、笑い、地獄にいるかのように感じました。

  • ‌‌麻酔の霧と天使のような存在‌‌:

    • 彼らが心臓発作を起こしそうになるほどの恐怖を感じた時、キャンピングカーの中に麻酔のような「‌‌霧‌‌」が漂い、彼らを身体的にも精神的にも落ち着かせました。これは彼らへの同情からではなく、さらに実験を続けるために生かしておくためでした。
    • 彼らはまた、雲から降りてくる「‌‌天使のような存在‌‌」を見ました。彼らはこれを「コンフォーター（慰める者）」と呼び、その存在は「大丈夫、これは終わる。あなたは生き残る」というメッセージを伝えました。この宗教的な要素は、この物語を聖書的な物語と見なすことも可能にしています。

  • ‌‌遭遇の終わりと直後の変化‌‌:

    • 彼らが最後に覚えているのは、マザーシップがキャンピングカーを吸い上げ始めたことです。
    • 翌朝目覚めると、焚き火は消えており、彼らはロシアが爆弾を落としたか、世界の終わりが来たのだと考えました。
    • 彼らはラジオをつけて状況を聞こうとしましたが、普通のカントリー＆ウエスタンソングが流れているだけで、何も報じられていませんでした。
    • キャンピング場に戻る途中で出会った老夫婦も、何も見ていないと答えました。
    • 帰宅後も、彼らは恐ろしい悪夢に悩まされ続けました。彼らの幼い息子も、エイリアンの悪夢を見て叫び声を上げ、ベッドの中でコマのように回転しているのを発見されました。
    • 夫婦は自宅でもエイリアンに監視されていると感じ、木の軋む音やラジエーターの音にも恐怖を感じるようになりました。
    • この経験は、彼らに‌‌心的外傷後ストレス障害（PTSD）‌‌に似た症状を引き起こし、医師の一人は彼らが戦争で残虐行為を目撃した退役軍人のようだと評価しました。彼らは仕事への興味を失い、食欲不振や不眠に陥り、神経症的な状態になりました。

ロン・フェルバーは、ギフォード夫妻の物語の信憑性を確認するために、彼らを国立精神医学センターで評価させ、嘘発見器テストを受けさせました。その結果、夫妻は「‌‌アメリカの屋台骨のような、非常に堅実な人々‌‌」であり、「‌‌空想に陥りやすい傾向はない‌‌」ことが判明し、嘘発見器テストも「‌‌素晴らしい成績で合格‌‌」しました。さらに、フェルバーはFBIの退行催眠専門家に依頼して、夫妻の記憶をたどらせました。これらの調査により、フェルバーは彼らの話が真実であると確信し、この出来事がUFO現象と地球外生命体に関する「圧倒的な証拠」であると結論づけました。この砂漠での遭遇は、フェルバー自身をUFO現象に「少し執着するようになった」人間に変え、彼の世界観と精神性にも大きな影響を与えました。

覚醒と混乱​

AI

「遭遇後の影響」というより大きな文脈において、これらのソースはギフォード夫妻が経験した‌‌覚醒‌‌と‌‌混乱‌‌が、彼らの人生と世界観に深く永続的な影響を与えたことを明確に示しています。

覚醒 (Awakening)​

ギフォード夫妻、特にエリーズは、遭遇とそれに続く自宅での現象を通じて、‌‌新しい現実への覚醒‌‌を経験しました。

  • 彼らは「‌‌新しい現実、異なる現実のベールまたはカーテンが引き上げられているかのよう‌‌」だと感じました。これは、それまでの彼らの世界観が根本から覆され、より広範な真実に目覚めたことを示唆しています。
  • 催眠状態のエリーズは、彼ら（エイリアン）が人類との接触を求めており、ギフォード夫妻は「不完全な人類のような標本」として彼らの反応を研究されていると述べました。また、彼らは感情を持たないため、人間から感情を学ぶ必要があるとも語りました。これは、彼らが遭遇によって得た、エイリアンの目的と人類との関係性に関する‌‌新たな理解と洞察‌‌です。
  • エリーズはさらに、宇宙と銀河に関する深遠な知識を語り、「‌‌私たちの宇宙は彼らの宇宙が始まるところで終わる‌‌」という言葉を述べました。これは、彼女が通常の意識状態では知り得ないような、宇宙の本質に関する‌‌認識の覚醒‌‌を示しています。
  • ギフォード夫妻は、ロン・フェルバーの支援により、精神科医による診断を受け、‌‌「非常に堅実な人々」であり、「空想に陥りやすい傾向はない」‌‌ことが証明されました。また、嘘発見器テストも「素晴らしい成績で合格」しました。この結果は、彼らが経験したことが‌‌現実のものであり、彼ら自身が狂っているわけではない‌‌という、彼らにとっての大きな覚醒であり、安心感をもたらしました。エリーズは、自分たちが狂っていないと知り、泣きそうになったと述べられています。
  • ロン・フェルバー自身も、当初はUFO現象の非信者でしたが、ギフォード夫妻の信頼性と彼らの証言の強固な事実から、「‌‌UFO、地球外生命体の地球への訪問の証拠は圧倒的だ‌‌」と確信するようになりました。彼の「探偵」のような分析的な思考は、この経験を通じて完全に揺さぶられ、‌‌個人的な覚醒‌‌を経験しました。彼はこの経験が自身を「より精神的に」したと述べています。

混乱 (Confusion)​

遭遇後の自宅での現象は、ギフォード夫妻を極度の‌‌混乱‌‌と精神的苦痛に陥れました。

  • 遭遇から帰宅後、彼らは‌‌恐ろしい悪夢‌‌に悩まされ、ベッドがエイリアンの生物に囲まれる夢を見ました。特にトムは空港の動く歩道のような場所でエイリアンと戦う夢、エリーズはベッドが生物に囲まれる中で性交する夢を見ました。これらの悪夢は、‌‌現実と夢の境界を曖昧にし、彼らを混乱させました‌‌。
  • 幼い息子もエイリアンの悪夢を見て叫び声を上げ、ベッドの中で「コマのように回転している」のが見つかりました。息子が「怪物がいる」「小さくて目が赤い」と訴えたことは、‌‌家族全体が混乱の渦中に巻き込まれた‌‌ことを示しています。
  • 夫妻は、‌‌自宅にいる間もエイリアンに監視されている‌‌と感じ、木のきしみ音やラジエーターの音にも恐怖を覚えるようになりました。これは、安全であるはずの自宅が、恐怖と監視の対象となり、‌‌彼らの基本的な安心感を混乱させた‌‌ことを示します。
  • 遭遇から約4週間後、トムが悪夢の中で見た白い光る制服を着た生物がエリーズの顔に火傷の跡を残した事件は、彼らが経験したことが‌‌現実であるかどうかの混乱‌‌を極限まで高めました。火傷の跡が翌朝には消え、写真にも写らなかったことは、‌‌現象の理解不能性‌‌を際立たせ、彼らをさらに混乱させました。
  • 彼らは仕事への興味を失い、無気力になり、食欲不振や不眠に陥り、精神的に不安定な状態になりました。ロン・フェルバーが連れて行った医師の一人は、彼らが‌‌心的外傷後ストレス障害（PTSD）‌‌に似た症状を呈しており、「戦闘で残虐行為を目撃した退役軍人」のようだと評価しました。これは、彼らが経験した混乱が、‌‌深刻な心理的外傷‌‌に起因するものであったことを示しています。
  • 彼らは「‌‌地獄にいるような気分‌‌」だと表現し、この出来事が「人類の歴史における大事件」であり、他のすべてを矮小化すると感じていました。この圧倒的な感覚は、彼らが‌‌通常の生活や価値観の意味を見失い、深い混乱に陥っていた‌‌ことを示しています。

結論として、モハベ事件における自宅での継続的現象は、ギフォード夫妻にとって‌‌既存の現実が完全に崩壊し、新たな理解への強制的な覚醒をもたらす、極度の混乱の期間‌‌でした。彼らは、遭遇によって得た信じがたい知識と、日常生活で直面する説明不能な現象との間で葛藤し、その結果、深遠な心理的・精神的苦痛を経験しました。

自宅での継続的現象​

AI

「モハベ事件（ギフォード夫妻の遭遇）」の文脈において、自宅での継続的現象は、砂漠での遭遇がギフォード夫妻とその家族に与えた‌‌深刻で永続的な影響‌‌を示すものとして描かれています。帰宅後も彼らを襲った一連の出来事は、そのトラウマがいかに深く、広範囲に及んだかを示しています。

自宅での継続的現象について、ソースは以下の点を述べています。

  • ‌‌悪夢と心理的苦痛‌‌:

    • 自宅に戻ってからも、ギフォード夫妻は‌‌恐ろしい悪夢‌‌に悩まされ続けました。
    • これらの悪夢の中には、エイリアンの生物にベッドが囲まれるというものもありました。
    • トムは悪夢の中で、空港の動く歩道のような場所でエイリアンの生物と戦っているような感覚に襲われました。
    • エリーズは、愛し合っている時にベッドが生物に囲まれるという悪夢に悩まされ、その後‌‌妊娠した‌‌と主張しました。
    • 夫妻は、‌‌自宅にいる間もエイリアンに監視されている‌‌と感じ、木のきしみ音やラジエーターの音にも恐怖を覚えるようになりました。

  • ‌‌息子への影響‌‌:

    • 彼らの幼い息子も、エイリアンの悪夢を見て叫び声を上げました。
    • 夫妻は、息子がベッドの中で‌‌コマのように回転している‌‌のを発見しました。
    • 息子は「‌‌怪物がいる‌‌」と叫び、「‌‌小さくて目が赤い‌‌」怪物だと説明しました。エリーズは、エイリアンに対し、自分たちには何をしてもいいが、子供たちには手を出すなと怒りを露わにしました。

  • ‌‌具体的な自宅での遭遇（バーンマークの事件）‌‌:

    • 遭遇から約4週間後、トムは悪夢の中で数体の生物がベッドの周りにいるのを見ました。
    • そのビジョンが消えると、身長約120cmの‌‌白い光る制服を着た生物‌‌が1体だけ残りました。
    • その生物は顔の特徴がなく、口や唇がなく、スリットがあるだけでした。
    • 生物は壁をすり抜け、ヘッドボードの後ろに立ち、エリーズの顔の上で‌‌3本の長い指を何度も動かしました‌‌。
    • トムは目が覚め、その生物の顔を直接見ました。その生物はテレパシーで「‌‌夢を見ているんだ‌‌」と語りかけました。
    • しかし、トムはエリーズの顔に、その指が残した‌‌火傷の跡‌‌があるのを見て、これが夢ではないことを確信しました。
    • トムはカメラで写真を撮ろうとしましたが、写真に何も写らず、‌‌翌朝には火傷の跡も消えていました‌‌。ロン・フェルバーは、同様に自分の背中に原因不明の引っかき傷ができ、写真に撮る前に消えた経験を共有し、恐怖を伴う「侵害された」感覚に言及しています。

  • ‌‌心理的・身体的影響と専門家の評価‌‌:

    • この経験は、夫妻に‌‌心的外傷後ストレス障害（PTSD）‌‌に似た症状を引き起こしました。
    • ロン・フェルバーが連れて行った医師の一人は、彼らが‌‌戦闘で残虐行為を目撃した退役軍人‌‌のようだと評価しました。
    • 彼らは仕事への興味を失い、無気力になり、食欲不振や不眠に陥り、神経症的な状態に陥りました。彼らは「‌‌地獄にいるような気分‌‌」だと表現しました。
    • 彼らは、自身が‌‌精神的に不安定になっていないか‌‌どうかを確認するため、ロン・フェルバーの紹介で精神科医の診察を受けました。その結果、彼らは「‌‌非常に堅実な人々‌‌」であり、「‌‌空想に陥りやすい傾向はない‌‌」ことが判明し、嘘発見器テストも「‌‌素晴らしい成績で合格‌‌」しました。この結果に、エリーズは自分たちが狂っていないと知り、泣きそうになったと述べられています。

  • ‌‌対処法と永続性‌‌:

    • ギフォード夫妻は、この経験への対処法として‌‌熱心なモルモン教徒‌‌となり、ユタ州に移住しました。
    • 彼らのビショップは、彼らが目撃したものを「悪魔と天使」による‌‌宗教的経験‌‌と解釈しました。
    • 彼らはこの経験を「‌‌埋めよう‌‌」とし、公には話さないようにと助言されました。
    • ロン・フェルバーは、このような経験は‌‌決して消えることはなく‌‌、‌‌PTSDのように内側に抱え続けるもの‌‌だと考えています。トムの言葉として、「彼らが見えようが見えまいが、彼らを感じることができる…まるで自分の中に、脳の中に住んでいるかのようだ」と引用されており、その継続的な影響が強調されています。

このように、ギフォード夫妻の自宅での継続的現象は、砂漠での遭遇が彼らの日常生活、精神状態、家族関係に長期にわたる深刻な影響を及ぼし、彼らが新たな現実を受け入れ、対処せざるを得なかった状況を浮き彫りにしています。

調査と検証​

AI

「モハベ事件（ギフォード夫妻の遭遇）」のより大きな文脈において、「調査と検証」は、ギフォード夫妻の信じられないような主張に信憑性を与え、ロン・フェルバー自身の懐疑心を払拭し、彼らの経験が単なる幻想ではないことを確立するために不可欠な要素でした。

ロン・フェルバーの初期の視点と動機​

  • ロン・フェルバーは、小説やノンフィクションの著者であり、元副保安官として経歴をスタートさせ、当初はUFOを信じていませんでした。彼は多くの人々と同様に、「トワイライト・ゾーン」のような物語には興味がありましたが、UFOについては深く考えていませんでした。
  • 彼の「探偵」のような分析的思考は事実を求め、物語の穴や矛盾点を探す傾向がありました。
  • しかし、彼の友人が、大学時代の親友であるギフォード夫妻が心理的に極度の窮状にあることを伝え、秘密の経験について彼に相談するように勧めました。ロンは当初、この種のジャンル（スパイ小説やサスペンススリラーとは異なる）には非常に消極的でした。

ギフォード夫妻の信頼性と検証の必要性​

  • ロンはギフォード夫妻に会った際、彼らの‌‌誠実さ、責任感、誇張や空想への傾向のなさ‌‌に非常に感銘を受けました。彼は彼らを「アメリカの屋台骨」のような‌‌非常に堅実な人々‌‌であると表現しました。
  • 夫であるトムは、ショッピングセンター建設のプロジェクトマネージャーであり、数百万ドルと多くの作業員を管理する‌‌非常に責任感のある人物‌‌でした。
  • ロンは、「なぜ彼らが物語をでっち上げる必要があるのか？」と疑問を呈しました。このような話は、彼らに嘲笑と仕事上の不利益をもたらすだけであり、得るものは何もないと感じたからです。この信頼性が、ロンが彼らの「信じられないような」話に耳を傾け、本を書くことを決意した主な理由でした。
  • 夫妻自身も、彼らに何が起こったのかを知りたいと切望しており、それが調査に協力した動機の一つでした。彼らは、自分たちが精神的に不安定になったのではないかと心配していました。

実施された調査と検証のステップ​

ロン・フェルバーは、ギフォード夫妻の体験を検証するために、いくつかの専門的な調査を行いました。

  1. ‌‌精神医学的評価‌‌:

    • ロンはギフォード夫妻をワシントンD.C.の国立精神疾患研究センターに連れて行き、‌‌精神科医に評価‌‌してもらいました。
    • ジョージタウン大学出身の医師、バートーン博士は、2日間かけてあらゆる種類の精神科テストを実施しました。
    • 結果は、彼らが「‌‌非常に堅実な人々‌‌」であり、「‌‌空想に陥りやすい傾向はない‌‌」ことを示しました。特にトムは「堅実なタイプ」と評価されました。この結果は、夫妻にとって「自分たちが狂っていないことを知り、泣きそうになった」ほどの大きな安堵をもたらしました。
    • 医師の一人は、彼らが‌‌戦闘で残虐行為を目撃した退役軍人‌‌が示す‌‌心的外傷後ストレス障害（PTSD）‌‌に似た症状を呈していると評価しました。

  2. ‌‌嘘発見器テスト‌‌:

    • ギフォード夫妻は嘘発見器テストも受け、「‌‌素晴らしい成績で合格‌‌」しました。

  3. ‌‌退行催眠‌‌:

    • ロンはさらに、元FBIの退行催眠専門家であり精神科医であるウィリアム・アニクスター博士（アッシュビル、ノースカロライナ州）に依頼し、ギフォード夫妻の‌‌退行催眠セッション‌‌を行いました。
    • これは、トラウマのために意識的に思い出せない情報を引き出すためでした。このセッションは「驚くべき回答」をもたらしました。
    • 催眠下のセッション中、エリーズは通常の話し方とは全く異なる、‌‌簡潔で直接的な口調‌‌で話し始めました。彼女は、エイリアンが人類と接触を求めており、ギフォード夫妻は人類の不完全な標本として、エイリアンが感情を持たないため人間の反応を研究していると語りました。
    • エリーズはまた、宇宙や銀河に関する深遠な知識を語り、「‌‌私たちの宇宙は彼らの宇宙が始まるところで終わる‌‌」というような哲学的な声明を述べました。ロンは、この詳細さと深さが、彼女が「チャネリング」しているように感じさせたと述べています。
    • 彼女は、エイリアンが「唯一の至高の存在（One Supreme）」からの命令で地球を訪れており、その目的は「‌‌五つの銀河すべてが調和して共に生きる‌‌」ことだと述べました。

遭遇後の継続的な影響と非物理的検証​

  • 遭遇後、ギフォード夫妻は‌‌恐ろしい悪夢‌‌に悩まされ続け、ベッドがエイリアンの生物に囲まれる夢を見ました。
  • 彼らの幼い息子もエイリアンの悪夢を見て叫び声を上げ、「小さくて目が赤い」怪物がいると訴えました。
  • トムは悪夢の中で生物に囲まれるビジョンを見た後、身長約120cmの‌‌白い光る制服を着た生物‌‌がエリーズの顔の上で3本の長い指を何度も動かし、‌‌火傷の跡‌‌を残した出来事を経験しました。火傷の跡は翌朝には消え、写真にも写りませんでしたが、トムにとってこれは夢ではないという‌‌決定的な物理的証拠‌‌でした。ロン自身も、同様の原因不明の引っかき傷が体にできた経験を共有しており、その恐怖を「侵害された」感覚と表現しています。
  • 夫妻は‌‌自宅にいる間もエイリアンに監視されている‌‌と感じ、木のきしみ音やラジエーターの音にも恐怖を覚えるようになりました。
  • 彼らは仕事への興味を失い、無気力になり、食欲不振や不眠に陥るなど、‌‌深刻な心的外傷後ストレス‌‌を経験しました。彼らは「地獄にいるような気分」だと表現し、この出来事が「人類の歴史における大事件」であり、他のすべてを矮小化すると感じていました。ロンは、このような経験は‌‌決して消えることはなく‌‌、PTSDのように「内側に抱え続けるもの」だと考えています。

ロン・フェルバーの最終的な結論と自己変革​

  • ロンは、ギフォード夫妻の物語の事実を深く調査し、‌‌彼らを信用できない点は何も見つけられなかった‌‌と結論付けました。
  • その結果、彼は当初の懐疑心を捨て、「‌‌UFO、地球外生命体の地球への訪問の証拠は圧倒的だ‌‌」と確信するようになりました。
  • この経験は彼を個人的に変化させ、彼自身を「‌‌より精神的に‌‌」し、死後の世界やスピリチュアルな世界を信じるようになったと述べています。
  • 彼は、「モハベ事件」が、意識的な経験と潜在意識的な経験の両方を含み、2人の信頼できる人物が嘘発見器テストと精神医学的分析に合格し、多くの疑問に答えを提供した、他に類を見ない「完璧な」UFO物語であると強く信じています。

このように、ギフォード夫妻の遭遇とその後の自宅での現象の調査と検証は、単なる事実の確認に留まらず、関わったすべての人々の世界観を根本から変え、彼らが経験した出来事の信憑性と深遠さを確立するプロセスとなりました。

その後の夫妻​

AI

モハベ事件（ギフォード夫妻の遭遇）のより大きな文脈において、ギフォード夫妻のその後の生活は、この信じがたい出来事が彼らの精神状態、日常生活、そして世界観に壊滅的かつ永続的な影響を与えたことを示しています。ロン・フェルバーの調査は、彼らのその後の苦難が単なる空想や誇張ではないことを検証する上で不可欠でした。

遭遇直後の精神的・身体的影響​

ギフォード夫妻は、モハベ砂漠での遭遇後、直ちに深刻な心的外傷を負いました。

  • 彼らは「‌‌恐ろしい悪夢‌‌」に悩まされ、ベッドがエイリアンの生物に囲まれる夢を見ました。
  • 4歳ほどの幼い息子であるトム・ジュニアも、自分の部屋で「‌‌小さくて目が赤い‌‌」モンスターに囲まれる悪夢を見て叫び声を上げ、ひどく取り乱しました。
  • 夫妻は、‌‌自宅にいる間もエイリアンに監視されている‌‌と感じるようになりました。木のきしみ音やラジエーターの音までもが彼らにとって意味を持つようになり、彼らを動揺させました。
  • トムは悪夢の中で生物に囲まれるビジョンを見た後、身長約120cmの白い光る制服を着た生物がエリーズの顔の上で3本の長い指を何度も動かし、‌‌火傷の跡‌‌を残すという出来事を経験しました。この火傷の跡は翌朝には消え、写真にも写りませんでしたが、トムにとってこれは夢ではないという‌‌決定的な物理的証拠‌‌でした。ロン・フェルバー自身も、同様の原因不明の引っかき傷が体にできた経験を共有しており、その恐怖を「侵害された」感覚と表現しています。
  • 彼らは仕事への興味を失い、無気力になり、食欲不振や不眠に陥るなど、‌‌深刻な心的外傷後ストレス（PTSD）‌‌を経験しました。彼らは「地獄にいるような気分」だと表現し、この出来事が「人類の歴史における大事件」であり、他のすべてを矮小化すると感じていました。

調査と検証への協力​

このような極度の苦境の中で、ギフォード夫妻はロン・フェルバーの調査に積極的に協力しました。

  • 彼らは、自分たちが精神的に不安定になったのではないかと心配しており、‌‌何が起こったのかを知りたいと強く切望‌‌していました。それが調査に協力した主な動機の一つでした。
  • 彼らは「‌‌骨の折れる悪夢‌‌」に苦しみ、眠ることも食べることもできず、何もすることに興味を失っていました。
  • 彼らは、この話が知られれば職を失ったり友人を失ったりするのではないかと、‌‌他者からの認識を非常に心配‌‌していました。

ロン・フェルバーが行った検証により、彼らの精神的な健全性が確認され、夫妻に大きな安堵をもたらしました。

  • ワシントンD.C.の国立精神疾患研究センターの精神科医、バートーン博士による2日間の評価では、彼らが「‌‌非常に堅実な人々‌‌」であり、「‌‌空想に陥りやすい傾向はない‌‌」ことが示されました。特にトムは「堅実なタイプ」と評価されました。
  • この結果は、夫妻にとって「‌‌自分たちが狂っていないことを知り、泣きそうになった‌‌」ほどの大きな安堵をもたらしました。
  • 医師の一人は、彼らが‌‌戦闘で残虐行為を目撃した退役軍人‌‌が示す‌‌心的外傷後ストレス障害（PTSD）‌‌に似た症状を呈していると評価しました。
  • ギフォード夫妻は嘘発見器テストも受け、「‌‌素晴らしい成績で合格‌‌」しました。
  • 元FBIの退行催眠専門家であるウィリアム・アニクスター博士による‌‌退行催眠セッション‌‌は、「驚くべき回答」をもたらし、意識的に思い出せない詳細な情報を引き出しました。

長期的な影響と対処法​

遭遇から数年後も、ギフォード夫妻は経験の影響を受け続けています。

  • ロン・フェルバーは、彼らが「‌‌このことを自分たちの中に抱え続ける‌‌」ものであり、決して消えることはないと述べています。彼らは「‌‌今でも悪夢にうなされ、監視されているように感じている‌‌」とロンは語っています。
  • ロンは、彼らが「‌‌何も得することはないのに、すべてを失う‌‌」状況にありながら、彼にこの話を信頼して話してくれたことに感謝の意を表しています。
  • 時が経ち、ギフォード夫妻は「‌‌このことを埋もれさせよう‌‌」とし、公に話すことを望まなくなりました。
  • 彼らは‌‌熱心なモルモン教徒‌‌となり、ユタ州に移住しました。彼らの司教は、彼らの体験を‌‌神学的、聖書的な解釈‌‌として受け止め、公に議論しないよう助言しました。これにより、ロンと彼らとのコミュニケーションは次第に減少しました。
  • ロンは、彼らが「‌‌モルモン教の背後に隠れている‌‌」ように見えると推測しています。それは、恐怖を和らげたり、経験を受け入れたりするためかもしれません。
  • ロンは夫妻のプライバシーを尊重し、本の中で彼らの‌‌本名を使用していません‌‌（スティーブンとドーン・ヘスという名前が実名に近いと示唆されています）。
  • ロンは、彼らが自分を信頼してくれたことを光栄に感じ、彼らが作家としての自分の活動を理解していると考えています。しかし、もし希望があるなら、この話は公に議論されるべきではないと考えているだろうと述べています。

ギフォード夫妻の経験とその後の人生は、UFO遭遇が個人に与える計り知れない心理的、存在論的影響を浮き彫りにしています。彼らの物語は、初期の懐疑心を持つロン・フェルバーを熱心なUFO信者へと変貌させ、この出来事の「圧倒的な証拠」と「重要性」を彼に確信させるに至りました。

宗教的解釈​

AI

モハベ事件とUFO現象、そして開示に関する議論のより大きな文脈において、これらの情報源は、これらの信じられないような遭遇が‌‌宗教的な解釈‌‌といかに深く結びついているかを強調しています。ロン・フェルバー自身の見解の進化や、ギフォード夫妻が彼らの体験を理解し対処しようとする中で宗教に頼ったことが、その核心をなしています。

ギフォード夫妻の宗教への傾倒と司教の解釈​

モハベでの衝撃的な遭遇の後、ギフォード夫妻のその後の人生は、‌‌熱心なモルモン教徒‌‌となることで劇的な変化を遂げました。

  • 彼らはユタ州に移住し、彼らの‌‌司教は、彼らの体験を神学的・聖書的なものと解釈‌‌しました。
  • 司教は、彼らが目撃したものを「‌‌悪魔と天使‌‌」と表現し、これは個人的な宗教的経験であり、公に議論すべきではないと助言しました。
  • この助言により、ロン・フェルバーと夫妻のコミュニケーションは次第に減少しました。ロンは、彼らが恐怖を和らげたり、経験を受け入れたりするために「‌‌モルモン教の背後に隠れている‌‌」ように見えると推測しています。ロンは、夫妻がこの話を公開したくないと考えているだろうと述べています。

退行催眠における「神学的」な啓示​

ロン・フェルバーは、ギフォード夫妻、特にエリーズの退行催眠セッションが、彼らの体験に‌‌神学的な側面‌‌がある可能性を示唆したことに注目しています。

  • エリーズは催眠下で、「‌‌神が私たちの世界を彼のイメージで創造した‌‌」と述べ、他の銀河や存在についても語りました。
  • 彼女は、すべての存在を司る「‌‌唯一至高の存在 (One Supreme)‌‌」がいると述べました。この存在は、地球外生命体を「任務」に送り込んでいる「‌‌大統領のような、あるいは神のような存在‌‌」であると表現されました。
  • この唯一至高の存在の目的は、「‌‌すべての銀河が調和して共に生きること‌‌」であり、エイリアンが人間と接触するのは、私たちがお互いや地球を気にかけるのをやめたときに、彼らが地球を気にかけるようになるためだと示唆されました。
  • エリーズが「聖書を読みなさい」と答えたことは、ロンにとって、これらのメッセージが「仕組まれた」ように聞こえるものの、‌‌彼女が単に「チャネリング」していた‌‌可能性を示唆しています。これは、催眠下で語られた内容が彼女自身の意識的な知識を超えたものであることを意味します。

ロン・フェルバー自身の見解と二元論​

ロン・フェルバーは、ギフォード夫妻の物語がUFO現象の‌‌神学的または精神的な解釈‌‌の可能性を提示していると考えています。

  • 彼は、ギフォード夫妻の体験を、「‌‌新しい現実、異なる現実のベールまたはカーテンが引き上げられる‌‌」ようだと表現し、その広範な意味合いに言及しています。
  • ロンは、UFO現象を「‌‌科学的現実‌‌」と「‌‌精神的現実‌‌」の二つの可能性で捉えています。
    • 一つは、これらが‌‌地球外からの訪問者‌‌であり、聖書の物語がこれらの出来事の誤解釈であるというもの。
    • もう一つは、「‌‌唯一至高の存在が本当に存在し、それが神であり、彼が銀河を統合しようとしている‌‌」というもの。
  • 彼は、ギフォード夫妻の経験における「‌‌天使的な存在‌‌」（彼らが「慰め手」と呼んだもの）の出現が、この‌‌宗教的解釈‌‌を特に強く支持していると感じています。
  • ロン自身も、この体験によって「‌‌より精神的になった‌‌」と語っており、「死後の世界」や「スピリチュアルな世界」、「人類の創造以来何千年もの間監視されてきた」という信念を語っています。

UFO現象と宗教の関連性​

ソースでは、UFO現象に対する社会の認識の変化と、それが宗教的信念とどのように交錯するかも議論されています。

  • 1940年代には、エイリアンが地球を訪れたと信じる人は少なかったが、現在では多数派がそう信じていると、ロンは指摘しています。これは、社会がより科学的な見方を受け入れつつも、‌‌一部の人々は依然として宗教的なレンズを通して現象を解釈‌‌していることを示唆します。
  • ギフォード夫妻がモルモン教を選んだ理由については明かされていないものの、彼らの司教の解釈が、彼らの恐怖を和らげ、‌‌不可解な出来事に意味を与える‌‌役割を果たした可能性が示唆されています。
  • ロンは、異星人が「より精神的な性質を持つ」かもしれないという仮説や、「私たちはエイリアンの子孫」であり、それが宗教的な文脈で「天使や悪魔」と解釈されうるというフランシス・クリックの説についても言及しています。

総じて、これらの情報源は、モハベ事件という具体的なUFO遭遇が、いかにして深い心理的苦痛、科学的検証の探求、そして最終的には個人の‌‌宗教的・精神的な世界観の再構築‌‌へと繋がったかを示しています。ギフォード夫妻の物語は、UFO現象が単なる物理的な遭遇に留まらず、人間の存在、目的、そして信じがたい出来事に直面した際の意味の探求という、より大きな疑問を提起するものであることを示しています。

Ron Felber の UFO の夢​

AI

モハベ事件と今後の執筆というより大きな文脈において、これらの情報源は、UFO現象がいかに‌‌深く個人的な体験‌‌であり、人々の世界観や人生の選択に永続的な影響を与えるかを浮き彫りにしています。特に、ロン・フェルバー自身の夢の体験と、それが彼の今後の執筆活動にどう影響したかが語られています。

ロン・フェルバーの個人的なUFO体験（夢）​

ロン・フェルバーは、ギフォード夫妻の体験を深く掘り下げた後、彼自身もまた、UFO現象を単なる調査対象としてではなく、‌‌個人的なレベルで経験した‌‌ことを明かしています。

  • 彼は、自身が「ユフォーロジー（UFO学）」から離れると述べたものの、それは主題への興味を失ったからではなく、‌‌モハベ事件がすでに「UFOの書」であると信じている‌‌ためです。彼は、これ以上の「完璧な物語」は書けないと考えています。
  • 彼の個人的な体験として語られるのは、海辺の池の底に白い丸い物体がある夢です。この夢の中で、彼は水に飛び込み、‌‌自身がその物体の中にいることに気づきます‌‌。そこには、以前に描写されたものとよく似た存在がおり、彼らはロンに機材や計器を見せてくれました。
  • この夢を見た後、ロンは‌‌1ヶ月間もの間、非常に強い多幸感‌‌を覚えたと述べています。
  • 彼はこの夢が「‌‌何らかの意味を持ち、何らかの形で現実だった‌‌」と信じており、‌‌退行催眠を受ければ、その背後に物語があるだろう‌‌と考えています。

夢の体験がロンの執筆と世界観に与えた影響​

この夢の体験は、ロン・フェルバーのUFO現象に対する理解と、今後の執筆へのアプローチに決定的な影響を与えました。

  • 彼は、ギフォード夫妻の物語が‌‌「新しい現実、異なる現実のベールやカーテンが引き上げられる」‌‌ようなものだと表現し、その広範な意味合いを強調しています。彼は、モハベ事件の物語が「‌‌別の現実を垣間見せる‌‌」ものであると考えています。
  • 彼はこの体験を通じて‌‌「より精神的になった」‌‌と語っています。彼は‌‌「死後の世界」や「スピリチュアルな世界」を信じるようになり、「人類の創造以来何千年もの間、我々が監視されてきた」‌‌という信念を抱くようになりました。
  • この信念は、ある意味で‌‌聖書的‌‌であるとも述べています。
  • 彼は、自身の「小さな」夢の体験が、彼の友人の経験と同じように、彼を「より精神的に」変えたと感じています。
  • 彼は、UFO現象には‌‌科学的現実と精神的現実という二つの可能性‌‌があると見ています。一つは地球外からの訪問者であり、聖書の物語がこれらの出来事の誤解釈であるというもの。もう一つは、「‌‌唯一至高の存在が本当に存在し、それが神であり、彼が銀河を統合しようとしている‌‌」というものです。
  • 彼は、ギフォード夫妻の経験における「‌‌天使的な存在‌‌」（彼らが「慰め手」と呼んだもの）の出現が、この‌‌宗教的解釈‌‌を特に強く支持していると感じています。また、退行催眠中のエリーズの「聖書を読みなさい」という返答も、その‌‌神学的な側面‌‌を示唆しています。

ギフォード夫妻の体験との関連性​

ロン・フェルバーの夢と彼の世界観の変化は、ギフォード夫妻が彼らのUFO体験をどのように受け止めたかとも共鳴しています。

  • ギフォード夫妻は、モハベでの遭遇の後、‌‌熱心なモルモン教徒となり、ユタ州へ移住‌‌しました。
  • 彼らの‌‌司教は、夫妻の体験を神学的・聖書的なものと解釈し、「悪魔と天使」‌‌と表現しました。司教は、これを個人的な宗教的経験として公に議論すべきではないと助言し、これがロンと夫妻のコミュニケーションが減少した一因となりました。
  • ロンは、夫妻が「‌‌モルモン教の背後に隠れている‌‌」ように見えると推測しており、彼らが恐怖を和らげたり、経験を受け入れたりするために宗教に頼った可能性を示唆しています。

このように、ロン・フェルバーの夢の体験は、彼を単なる傍観者からUFO現象の個人的な影響を理解する者へと変え、それが彼の今後の執筆に対する見解を形成しました。モハベ事件と彼自身の夢の両方が、‌‌UFO遭遇が個人に深い精神的・宗教的影響を与える‌‌というテーマを強調しています。

時系列​

AI

‌‌1940年代頃（正確な日付不明）‌‌: ロン・フェルバーが子供の頃、フランク・エドワーズのUFOに関する本『UFOs Serious Business』に興味を持つ。

‌‌1940年代（継続中）‌‌: 空飛ぶ円盤のぼやけた写真やロズウェル事件など、UFO現象に関する世間の認識が徐々に高まり始める。

‌‌1949年‌‌: ウィリアム・ピーター・ブラッティが、取り憑かれた少年の新聞記事を読み、後に『エクソシスト』の着想を得る。

‌‌1950年代‌‌: 人々がUFOを目撃したというニュースが流れ、UFOが人気のある話題となる。

‌‌1960年代‌‌: ベティとバーニー・ヒルの誘拐事件など、UFOの話題がさらに広まる。

‌‌1989年10月21日～22日‌‌:

  • 21日夜: スティーブン・ドーン・ヘス（トム）と妻のエリーゼ・ヘス（エリーゼ）がモハベ砂漠でキャンプ中にUFOと遭遇。当初、トムがUFOを目撃するが、エリーゼには話さない。
  • 21日夜遅く: 砂漠の音が消え、空に異常な光（最初は二重星と見間違われる）が現れる。それが9つの光の塊になり、M字型に配置される。その後、光の塊が数百に増え、地面に降りてくる。
  • 21日夜遅く: エイリアンの存在が顕現し、トムは散弾銃とライフルを手に取るが、テレパシーによる命令で抵抗を断念し、キャンピングカーの後部に身を隠すよう強いられる。
  • 21日夜遅く: キャンピングカー内で、トムとエリーゼは電気的な存在「モニター」によって閉じ込められる。周囲には「グレムリン」のようなエイリアンが数百体うろつく。
  • 21日夜遅く: フットボール場大の巨大な母船が渓谷全体を覆い、9つの小型クラフトをぶら下げる。光の柱が地上に降り注ぎ、サボテン、木、牛などを吸い上げる。
  • 21日夜遅く: 9体の「光る存在」（科学者と推測される）がキャンピングカーを囲み、彼らの心から記憶や感情を吸い出す。エリーゼは子供時代の暴行を、トムは狩られる側の経験を追体験させられる。
  • 21日夜遅く: 硫黄のような匂いが立ち込め、掘削のような振動が感じられる。これはエイリアンが希少な地球の鉱物を採掘している可能性が示唆される。
  • 21日夜遅く: パニック状態のトムとエリーゼに麻酔のような霧が送られ、落ち着かされる。彼らは意識不明となる前に、キャンピングカーごと母船に吸い上げられているのをかすかに覚えている。

‌‌1989年10月22日早朝‌‌: トムとエリーゼがキャンプ場で目覚める。キャンプファイヤーは消えており、外部では何も異常は起きていないように見える。

‌‌事件後数週間‌‌:

  • トムとエリーゼは悪夢に悩まされる。
  • 彼らの4歳の息子、トム・ジュニアも部屋で「赤目のモンスター」を見たと言って泣き叫ぶ。
  • エリーゼが妊娠していることに気づく。エイリアンが彼らの家を監視していると感じるようになる。
  • 遭遇から約4週間後、トムの寝室に「光る存在」が現れ、エリーゼの顔に火傷の跡を残す。翌朝には火傷は消えるが、写真には写らない。

‌‌事件後（正確な日付不明）‌‌: ロン・フェルバーがPaul Moranを介してGifford夫妻と出会う。

‌‌事件後（正確な日付不明）‌‌: フェルバーはGifford夫妻をワシントンD.C.の国立精神医学センターに連れて行き、彼らが妄想や精神不安定の傾向がないか評価を受ける。結果は「非常に正常な人々」であるというものだった。

‌‌事件後（正確な日付不明）‌‌: フェルバーはFBIの退行催眠専門家であるウィリアム・アニクスター博士を雇い、Gifford夫妻に退行催眠を施す。

‌‌退行催眠セッション中‌‌:

  • エリーゼは憑依されたかのように話し、エイリアンは人類の反応と感情を研究していると述べる。
  • エイリアンが「5つの銀河」の出身であり、全銀河を団結させるために地球から開始していると主張する。
  • エリーゼは「私たちの宇宙は彼らの宇宙が始まるところで終わる」と哲学的な発言をする。
  • エイリアンが「唯一至高の存在」の命令で任務を遂行していると述べる。
  • エリーゼは、人類とエイリアンの大規模な遭遇は、彼女の子供たちが生きている間に起こると予測する。
  • エリーゼは、エイリアンは人間の感情に興味があり、人類の「魂」まで探ろうとしていたと述べる。

‌‌退行催眠後（正確な日付不明）‌‌: Gifford夫妻は自身が精神疾患でないことを知り安堵する。

‌‌事件後（継続中）‌‌: Gifford夫妻は深い精神的苦痛を抱え、仕事への意欲を失い、家でも監視されているという感覚に苛まれる。

‌‌事件後数年‌‌: Gifford夫妻は熱心なモルモン教徒になり、ユタ州に移住する。彼らのビショップは、彼らの体験を「悪魔と天使」による宗教的なものと解釈するよう助言する。これにより、彼らは公に話すことを避けるようになる。

‌‌事件後（継続中）‌‌: ロン・フェルバーは『The Mojave Incident』を執筆し、エイリアン現象の熱心な研究者となる。彼は、UFOの証拠は圧倒的であり、将来大規模な遭遇が起こると信じている。

‌‌現代‌‌: UFO現象に対する世間の認識が変化し、かつての「陰謀論」の対象から、より真剣に議論される主題へと移行する。フェルバーは、政府が情報の開示をためらっているが、最終的には大規模な遭遇が起こるだろうと考えている。

主要関係者​

AI

‌‌ロン・フェルバー（Ron Felber）‌‌:

  • 本作の語り手であり、ノンフィクションおよびフィクション作家。
  • 元副保安官で、当初はUFO現象を信じていなかった。
  • 執筆活動は6年生の頃からの情熱であり、ウィリアム・ピーター・ブラッティから指導を受ける。
  • Gifford夫妻の物語に遭遇し、彼らの経験を調査し、『The Mojave Incident』を執筆する。
  • この事件によってUFOと地球外生命体の存在を確信するようになり、UFO現象に深く関心を抱くようになる。
  • Gifford夫妻の信頼を得て、彼らの体験を記録するために尽力した。

‌‌デイブ・スコット（Dave Scott）‌‌:

  • ポッドキャスト「Spaced Out Radio」の司会者。
  • ロン・フェルバーにインタビューし、彼の著書『The Mojave Incident』とUFO現象に関する見解について深く掘り下げる。
  • 自身もUFO体験者であり、フェルバーの話に強い共感を覚える。

‌‌スティーブン・ドーン・ヘス（Stephen Dawn Hess、通称トム・ギフォード）‌‌:

  • モハベ事件の主要な体験者の一人。ロン・フェルバーの著書では「トム・ギフォード」という仮名で登場。
  • ショッピングモールの建設プロジェクトマネージャーという責任ある職務に就く、高学歴で「アメリカの屋台骨」のような人物。
  • 元大学フットボール選手で、丈夫で冷静な性格。
  • 事件後、精神的に大きな苦痛を経験し、仕事への意欲を失う。
  • 悪夢や「監視されている」感覚に悩まされ、最終的にモルモン教に救いを求める。

‌‌エリーゼ・ヘス（Elise Hess、通称エリーゼ・ギフォード）‌‌: モハベ事件の主要な体験者の一人。ロン・フェルバーの著書では「エリーゼ・ギフォード」という仮名で登場。

  • トムの妻で、2人の幼い子供の母親。
  • トムよりも感受性が高く、エイリアンからのテレパシーメッセージを最初に受け取る。
  • 退行催眠中には、エイリアンの目的や宇宙に関する驚くべき情報を「チャネリング」する。
  • 子供時代のトラウマをエイリアンによって追体験させられるなど、精神的に極度の苦痛を受ける。
  • 事件後、悪夢や監視されている感覚に悩まされ、夫と共にモルモン教に帰依する。

‌‌ポール・モラン（Paul Moran）‌‌:

  • ロン・フェルバーの同僚であり、トム・ギフォードの大学時代の親友。
  • フェルバーとギフォード夫妻を引き合わせ、彼らの体験を世に知らしめるきっかけを作った人物。

‌‌ウィリアム・ピーター・ブラッティ（William Peter Blatty）‌‌:

  • 『エクソシスト』の著者であり、ロン・フェルバーの文学的メンター。
  • フェルバーに執筆への影響を与え、物語の着想や深みについて助言した。

‌‌ドクター・ベルナール・ベルトーネ（Dr. Bernard Bertone）‌‌:

  • ワシントン精神医学研究所の精神科医で、ジョージタウン大学医学部卒業。
  • Gifford夫妻の精神状態を評価し、彼らが精神疾患でないことを確認した。
  • フェルバーのUFOに関する主張に対し、興味を持って検証に挑んだ。

‌‌ドクター・ウィリアム・アニクスター（Dr. William Anixter）‌‌:

  • アッシュビル、ノースカロライナ州の元FBI退行催眠専門家および精神科医。
  • Gifford夫妻に退行催眠を施し、彼らが意識的に思い出せない体験の深層を探る手助けをした。
  • フェルバーのUFOに関する主張に対し、好奇心を持って協力した。

‌‌トム・ジュニア（Tom Jr.）‌‌:

  • トムとエリーゼの4歳の息子。
  • モハベ事件後、自宅で「赤目のモンスター」を見たと言って泣き叫ぶ経験をする。
  • 事件の直接の目撃者ではないが、間接的に影響を受けている。

‌‌唯一至高の存在（The One Supreme）‌‌:

  • 退行催眠中のエリーゼが言及した、エイリアンを地球に送る高位の存在。
  • 「神のようなもの」と表現され、すべての銀河を調和させることを望んでいるとされる。

‌‌天使のような存在（Angelic presence）‌‌:

  • モハベでのエイリアン遭遇中に、トムとエリーゼの前に現れた「慰める者」。
  • 彼らに「大丈夫、あなたは生き残る」というメッセージを伝え、その存在は宗教的な側面を持つと解釈された。

コメント​

当事者の夫婦が、砂漠で一時的な意識障害を起こして、幻覚を体験したものだと私は解釈する。つまり現実の体験ではない。現場の EMF 異常、もしくは現場に自生していた幻覚植物や無自覚で摂取した薬物などがその意識障害の引き起こした。

この事件は

  • 巨大 UFO が出現し、魔物的 ET が多数出現し、さらに天使が登場

という点で誠に派手なものだが、それらは幻覚なので重要ではない。幻覚の証拠として物的証拠は皆無。

むしろ重要なのは、この事件に付随して生じたヒッチハイカー現象の方。この事件はヒッチハイカー現象に関する重要なデータとなっている。

情報源​

動画(3:53:28)

Ron Felber - The Mojave Incident - UFOs - UAP - What do we know？

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDkgICBQPiM

文字起こし​

展開

(transcript 1of2)

（以下は podcast の文字起こしです。長いの２つに分割し、これは前半部分です。語り手は Ron Felber で、聞き手は Dave Scott です）

Ron Felber, author of fiction and non-fiction books, including television and documentary films. But his biggest book has been The Mojave Incident. Now, this one gets a little weird, people, because it talks about true details of a UFO encounter, aliens, and so much more. Ron began writing his career as a deputy sheriff, writing for True Detective Magazine. He then went on to pen novels for the iconic Nick Carter series, with titles such as The Blue Ice Affair, Death Mission Havana, and Blood Ultimatum. But it's all about UFOs and aliens tonight, with our good friend Ron Felber, who's packing one seriously good looking mustache. (0:08:09)

Ron, welcome to Spaced Out Radio. How are you? Hold on, I got to get your mute off here. There we go. How you doing, my friend? I'm doing just fine, Dave. Good to be here. Good to have you here. I'm going to apologize for my throat right off the bat, because I am battling a cold. I am battling a cold. But for you, being a former police officer, did you always believe in UFOs? (0:08:31)

No, actually, it isn't something I thought a lot about. Like a lot of people, I grew up with Rod Serling and the Twilight Zone, and I always thought those kind of stories were interesting. But as far as UFOs, when I was a kid, there was a story called, a book by Frank Edwards called UFOs Serious Business. And I took a look at that. (0:08:57)

And again, it was of interest. But as I grew older, went into business, you know, went to school, etc. It was something that was very far from my mind. So how do you go from police officer to a love of writing, which I can understand because I have a love of writing, too. Albeit my radio side is like 45 seconds. What can I jam into 45 seconds? (0:09:22)

Whereas you're like writing novels and everything, which isn't fair because it's so different. It really is. How did you go from transitioning from police officer to writer? Did you always have an interest in writing? Oh, always, yeah. Since the sixth grade, you know, it was one of those things where a teacher, you hear sometimes a teacher changed somebody's life. I can really say that about my teacher in the sixth grade. (0:09:45)

We had essays to write, you know, maybe about my summer vacation or who's my hero, etc. And I wrote a piece on the baseball player Willie Mays. And she came up to me and said, you know, this isn't the best paper, but it's the most unique paper. You have a talent for writing. And, you know, at 12 or whatever age I was, those kind of things make a real impact. (0:10:13)

And it did. And I started writing short stories in the seventh grade, I guess, and got them published in my brother's high school magazine. So when I was in the seventh grade, sixth, seventh grade, I was writing stories that were getting published. (0:10:27)

So I had about 30 stories published in scholastic type magazines. And I won an award for best short story, national award. And then I really just started writing novels and had the good fortune when I was at Georgetown to meet William Peter Blatty, the author of The Exorcist, who really became a kind of mentor for me. Wow, that's interesting. What was it like meeting him? (0:10:57)

He's a great guy. I mean, he's passed away, unfortunately. And, you know, I have to say, sometimes in your life, there's like almost a brick removed, you know, and that's kind of the way it was with Bill Blatty. He was a very intelligent guy, came from almost nothing, you know, in New York, was the son of immigrants from Lebanon. His father deserted the family when he was a baby. (0:11:26)

And he got a scholarship to a high school, a prep school, then got a scholarship to Georgetown, was a comedy writer. And then he did a shot in the dark. He invented Inspector Clouseau, along with Blake Edwards, who was very funny, by the way. So then that kind of dried up. And in 1949, there was a story in the newspaper about a boy that was possessed. (0:11:51)

He put it in his wallet and carried around with him. And in 1970 or so, he said, you know, my comedy is not doing so well, maybe I'll write a novel. So very bright and for me, just very supportive. What was your first novel? I wrote a book, I won't tell you when, it was a long time ago. Anyway, I was maybe 21, I guess, something like that. (0:12:19)

And I wrote a book called The Indian Point Conspiracy. And it was about a nuclear reactor in Indian Point, New York, that terrorists took over. So it's not a bad little plot. Of course, the writing was a little primitive by my standards today. So here you are, you're still a police officer, you decide to get into the writing game and kind of let your imagination flow. (0:12:46)

How much did the writing take a stress off a very stressful job? Because I know for a lot of people who have high stress jobs like that, you need an outlet somewhere. A lot of people turn to the bottle, a lot of people... Yeah, me too. Womanizing or whatever it may be. But for you, you turned to pen to paper in the time of the war. (0:13:07)

And then eventually the computer. I mean, how much of an outlet was that for you? Well, you know, I'll just tell you frankly, when I got out of college, I went to Georgetown, I was in debt. It was about $40,000 in debt from college loans. And my parents' home was the sort of collateral for it. So I needed to get a job. And it was just in the middle of a recession when these gas shortages, OPEC gas shortages and lines for gasoline at stations. (0:13:40)

So they weren't hiring and I needed to get a job. (0:13:44)

And at the time, being a deputy sheriff and transporting prisoners, which is what I did, paid a reasonable amount of money so I could pay my loans down. And I was not so happy about having to do that, given, you know, all the money I spent on a degree. But in retrospect, it was probably the most important thing that ever happened to me in terms of writing. (0:14:13)

So in a way, it's a little turn. The people that I met, the criminals, the hitmen, the terrorists, guys that hijacked airplanes to Cuba and came back, fascinating people. Not nice people, but fascinating people. So I started writing for True Detective. And really, in many of my stories, those characters, the way they talk, the way they act, they're things you can use. Norman Mailer says writers are like squirrels. (0:14:46)

They pack away acorns into their nest and then take them out one at a time when they need them. So that's what those stories were for me. When I was in the middle of writing a novel or a book, I said, this guy could be a good character, you know? And so it goes like that. For you, as you decided to start writing about true crime and the stories that go along with that fiction and both nonfiction, how did you enter the UFO game? (0:15:14)

You know, finally, I did get a job in business, and I was a division manager, they call it, for an industrial company, manufacturing company. And I had some salespeople under me. One of them was a young guy I hired in California, in Southern California. And we got to be very good friends. So when I was on the West Coast, you know, we'd have lunch together and just talk about kids, talk about whatever, business mostly, actually. (0:15:47)

But he said, you know, I know you're a writer and I really like the way you write. I've read your stuff. I have a friend who I played football with in college. He's my best friend, and he's sort of a wreck. And so is his wife, because they have a secret. I promised him that I wouldn't tell anyone. But I know you so well, and I know them so well. (0:16:14)

And I think it would be a good thing if you met. So we did, and I was very reluctant. You know, the first thing I said to him, I said, I don't do that kind of thing. It's just not what I do. I was doing spy novels. I was doing suspense thrillers. So UFO is like, you know, very far off in terms of a genre. (0:16:32)

So he introduced me to them. And I said, you know, here are these two people, you know, well educated. The guy is a project manager for building shopping centers. So, you know, he's handling millions of dollars. He's handling workers. This is no, you know, just somebody. He's really a responsible person. (0:16:54)

They had two kids. The woman was, they met in college. He was a football star, Ball State football star. And you say, why on earth would somebody invent a story? I mean, is this going to, what is this going to do for him except cause ridicule and probably hurt his chances at his job? You know, so I believe them. And they told me the most incredible story I've ever heard. (0:17:23)

And I decided to write the book because mostly because of them. It wasn't something I ever thought about. Even when I first heard this story, I go, this is, this is unbelievable. But then I took them to a National Center of Psychiatry in Washington, D.C. I had them evaluated for like, if they were prone to fantasy, if they were unstable in any way, and came back. (0:17:48)

These are like the backbone of America, you know. Very solid people. And then I had him retrogressed by an FBI hypnotist that I got in contact with, who was good enough to do the work. And what came out of all of this is an incredible book, I think, The Mojave Incident, and an incredible story. And I would say beyond that, an important story. (0:18:11)

We're going to get into that story as we progress here in the show. I just want to continue to learn about you. How much, as a non-believer to the UFO phenomena, did this change you personally? Well, for one thing, I find at this point, since I've delved into it, you know, once you write a book like this, you're sort of in the circle, where you hear a lot of things, you watch a lot of things, because you become fascinated by the topic. (0:18:40)

And what changed is, first of all, I think the evidence for UFOs, for extraterrestrial craft visiting Earth, is overwhelming. It's overwhelming. Any judge sitting on a bench, if they looked at this evidence, would say, certainly it's possible, it's probable, and it's almost certain. So, how enlightening was that for you? Like, I mean, I could just imagine what it was like. I've always been on the side that UFOs are real, even before my encounters. (0:19:22)

So for you, as a non-believer, as a guy who's all about the facts, because that's what you have to be as a creator, you know, I mean, did it send you for a little bit of a loop? Did you get some sleepless nights, or just sit around scratching your head, saying, what the hell did I get myself into here? Yeah, you're right about that. (0:19:40)

I mean, I'm, I guess, a fairly analytical guy. Yeah, I may be a bit of a detective in that sense. You know, I want to investigate and find out what's true. And so you look for facts, you look for holes in stories, you look for inconsistencies. And the more I looked into it, the more I just couldn't find anything that would discredit them. (0:20:02)

And many, many things that would lead you to believe that they were telling the truth, and that this really happened. (0:20:10)

What people say all the time is, well, I believe that you believe it happened. Well, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying what the retrogressive hippies have said. I believe that this, everything you're saying happened to you. It's not a matter of thinking it happened to you, it happened to you. And that's where I came to the conclusion, this is real. Then I started to look into more evidence about all this. (0:20:40)

And I have to say, you know, you become a little obsessed with it. And I suspect that it's not a conversation everybody in a company, let's say, would want to talk about. But it's something you want to talk about, because you think you've found the truth. That's very important that people seem oblivious to. And that's almost scary. What was your inner circle like when you told me you're writing a UFO book? (0:21:14)

Well, these are business guys. They thought I was kind of crazy, I think. And at first they thought, you know, it was, you know, I don't know, maybe a comedy or something, you know. It just wasn't in my DNA to do something like that. But as they realized it was true, and I had tapes and whatnot, recordings and hypnotic sessions, which I shared with a couple of people. (0:21:41)

None of them, I have to say, I don't think I convinced anybody that UFOs are real. Of course, this was a while ago. And I think a lot of things have changed. But people that are skeptics, and even just people that aren't skeptics, it's amazingly, it's almost hard to comprehend that they're unfazed. I mean, these things may be the biggest story in the history of humankind. (0:22:11)

And it's like, oh, yeah, I think I'll have the cheese sandwich. It just doesn't register. And I find that astounding. So this story is going back a few years now. And over the past number of years, we've had major changes in the UFO world, especially the last four years, where all of a sudden, there's a lot of people with egg on their face, who are now understanding that this major conspiracy theory about spaceships and potentially life from elsewhere is no longer a tinfoil hat subject anymore. (0:22:48)

How has this changed your outlook moving forward? Do you follow the subject quite closely now? Or was it, I've done the book, I'm a believer now, I don't need to do any more? No, no, I think my girlfriend would tell you. I watch everything that's on TV, anything on YouTube, any article I can get my hands on. Like I said, it becomes a bit of an obsession. (0:23:14)

And you know, it's funny, I was just watching a show. And the comedian, Jackie Gleason? Yes. He was a fanatic about UFOs and had a very interesting story to tell. But it's like, I guess it's like, you know, the word fan probably comes from fanatic. But you become a fan of the topic. (0:23:35)

And yeah, I know I devour anything that has anything to do with it. Because I think, I think it's important. I think it's, you know, incredibly important. From an outsider's perspective, then, what do you think the truth is when it comes to UFOs? Well, that's kind of a long story. But I'll give you the short answer. We have five minutes, so... No, sure. (0:23:59)

Yeah, sure. I think I'll give the... I think that there's an evolution that's gone on, let's say since the 40s, 49, 47, where people are desensitized. And I think that this is almost... For example, you have some photographs taken of flying saucers, as they call them, flying discs over the Himalayas. So fine, that's a grainy photo. It's in Life magazine or whatever. You hear about Roswell, but many years later, and that situation. (0:24:36)

Then you hear other people say, I saw this object. You see them on the news or something. I'm talking about now the 50s, let's say. Then in the 60s, and it becomes a popular topic. You know, it's something that people talk about a lot and are curious about. Then you have the Betty and Barney Hill story, where they were abducted and they retrogressed. (0:25:00)

And, you know, they had, I mean, again, very credible people. And then, you know, you have what's gone on more recently with the Pentagon. These are all steps that move closer and closer to a major encounter, in my view, between extraterrestrials and human beings. Do you ever think that we are going to get to that point where there is some sort of disclosure? (0:25:29)

You know, I was reading a comment by George Knapp today on Twitter who basically said, you know, we're still a long ways from any sort of disclosure-type movement, but we are traveling pretty much in the right direction. What do you think about that? What do you feel about the purpose of disclosure? Is it real? Is it something that we should be striving for? (0:25:51)

Or is it just impossible? No, I think it's more than possible. I think it's going to happen. And my bet would be that it's going to happen. If you have children and you're a certain age, let's say 50, just to put out a number, if you have kids and you're 50, I think in their lifetime, there will be a major, not disclosure, there'll be a major encounter. (0:26:13)

And I think that's what this is moving inexorably towards. And, you know, I think so too. Do you think society, though, as we got about three minutes left, is ready for any kind of disclosure? I mean, I always like to use the example with our audience, Ron. I look at the way we've treated people through COVID. And I don't talk a lot of COVID here. (0:26:39)

You know, I don't care either way. But I mean, if you look at everything, you know, I mean, we've all seen the videos of people hoarding toilet paper, buying $2,000 worth of meat, even though they don't need it, hoarding milk and all sorts of types of products. (0:26:56)

Treating the neighbor like they're garbage, you know, and become very introverted. What is your opinion on that? Do you have an opinion? Yeah, sure I do. I think it's going to happen whether those people want it to happen or not. I think it's just, even now, even as we sit here today, I think this is in your face. I mean, I think this is like somebody nudging you, you know, from the back and say, hey, I'm here, look at this. (0:27:24)

And people seem, some people and many people understand what's going on. Many people are curious and maybe don't quite understand or maybe don't quite comprehend, you know, the weight of this. But I think it's going to happen one way or the other. And I think there'll be a couple of major events that lead up to it. You think so? And one of them is the Pentagon already. (0:27:51)

Well, it all depends. See, my big thing with it all is I think, and I could be wrong here, but I think there are so many secrets that the U.S. government has with this phenomena that they're trying to figure out a path where they don't have to give out those secrets. So true disclosure may be a straight line, but the U.S. government wants to take this big detour around. So that way, we don't need to know about Roswell. We don't need to know about Phoenix. We don't need to know about Kecksburg or what's happened with crash retrievals, whether or not we have contact. (0:28:30)

And that contact has been happening since the 1940s. I think there are so many secrets that they are trying to protect that there's no way we'll ever get the true truth. I agree. I don't think so. And it almost seems like governments generally around the world, you talk about freedom, free speech, et cetera, are more likely to hold things back than ever before. (0:28:57)

There's a kind of iron fist mentality around the world. And I think the odds of that, of the disclosure coming from the government is very, very slim. I think the way it'll happen is literally people say, I want a UFO or a little man to walk out on the White House lawn. I think that's going to happen. Well, on that note, I'm going to let you sit right there. (0:29:26)

We're going to go to break here at the bottom of the hour. Author Ronald Felber is our guest tonight. The Mojave incident, what happened in the desert, California? We'll find out. Talk aliens. Let's talk UFOs. Yes, here we could still say aliens, people. Spaced Out Radio continues right after this. I'm surviving so far. I'm surviving. Yeah, you're struggling through a little bit, huh? (0:30:00)

Oh, yeah. We'll make it though. We'll make it. Thank you, Dirt Road, for that awesome super chat, my friend. And thank you, Space Cow and Murray and Cat. Really appreciate it. All right. We've got five minutes. (0:30:21)

Five minutes here just to hang out. Now, our YouTube audience and our Twitch audience can hear us. So just to let you know. Well, I appreciate this. Actually, I really enjoyed the questions. They are very, very good ones, and it's fun to answer them. Well, thank you. We're only going to get more interesting now. I think so. Absolutely. This was the warm-up, huh? (0:30:49)

Well, you know what? I never... The one thing I learned a long time ago about this show is I never ask the good questions right off the bat. The reason why is, A, a lot of guests are very nervous, and B, the audience trickles in. And once we hit about that bottom of the hour, the majority of our audience is already tuned in. (0:31:08)

I see. So there's no point in asking that first half hour. Yeah. The really poignant questions when we... Yes. When we... and then people miss it, because then all of a sudden I'll get questions later on in the show. Can Ron answer this and be like, he answered that in the first half hour, you know? Yeah. No, it's a great format. It's a great format. (0:31:27)

Oh, thank you. Thank you. We do our best here. So are commercials running now, or how does that go? Is there a... Yeah. We have to time everything out to our radio side of things. Oh, I see. So that's kind of the way we do it. So this show will run tomorrow night on our radio affiliates. We have six radio affiliates. So I have to time everything out to their timing. (0:32:04)

I see. That's kind of what I'm doing right now. Oh, gorgeous. Jenny turned 70 just two days ago or yesterday. Happy birthday, Jenny. We love you around here. And you're here every night with us, and we absolutely love you. Happy birthday on behalf of all of us at Spaced Out Radio. Much love, my dear. So Dave, I'm going to get some water, if that's okay. (0:32:40)

Author Ron Felber is here. He's got a great book out called The Mojave Incident. Deals with a family, UFOs, extraterrestrials. (0:36:35)

Now in the first half hour, Ron, as we bring you in now, you were telling us that you didn't believe in this subject. You didn't believe that this phenomenon was real. You were pretty much like everybody else out there who thinks it's just a bunch of tinfoil hat wearing weirdos. And then you found out it was real. So take us to the introduction of your book and the family and how you learned about this story. (0:37:00)

Yeah. I had had a friend that worked with me and his name was Paul Moran, as a matter of fact, and he lived in Los Angeles. I was on the East Coast at the time and we became friendly. If I was out on the West Coast, we would have lunch or dinner or whatever. And he introduced me to his best friend who he played football with in college at the University of Redlands and told me he had had an experience. (0:37:37)

He told me also that he was sort of sworn to secrecy because these people didn't really want to talk about it. But knowing that I was a writer and knowing that his friend and his wife were really in desperate straits psychologically after having gone through this experience, he thought it would be good for both of us to meet. And I did meet them and I was incredibly impressed with just how straightforward, how responsible, how not prone to exaggeration or fantasy or anything like that. (0:38:08)

Just almost the backbone of America kind of people. And they told me their story and as fantastic as it was, piece by piece, I became more convinced that they were telling the truth, that this really happened and there was no other explanation for it but the one they came to, which was they had an alien encounter. So when did this event happen? It happened October 1989, the 21st and the 22nd, October 21st and 22nd, 1989. And I can tell you a little bit how it happened. (0:38:49)

The Giffords are their names and it was a couple, had two children and the mother, the wife was a new mother and as you might imagine with little children, she was sort of anxious to get out of the house and do something exciting that wasn't being a mother or a house wife. And so he, on the other hand, was a hunter. (0:39:25)

He had a great job. He was a project manager for constructing shopping malls, which is a very responsible job. And he was a hunter. His father would take him hunting, his brother as well. And the season before, he had missed a shot at a mule deer and his father and brother were relentless in teasing him about it. So as competitive as this fellow was, a former college football player, he wanted to get that mule deer. (0:39:53)

So they were sort of at odds as to what to do. So they decided to do both. They were going to go into the Mojave Desert and he would do his hunting, but she would go with him to a place called Whiskey Pete's, which was along the way. They'd camp at Midland's campsite and then go into the Mojave. So both of them would pretty much get what they wanted. That was the compromise they worked out. (0:40:17)

Okay, so here they go into the Mojave and it's obviously in the middle of fall. (0:40:25)

What were they doing? Where were they going at that time? Yeah, this is a, you know, these coincidences. It's funny when you see things happen from a distance, from a little bit of a distance, that over time you say, well, gee, that's an amazing coincidence. That isn't the way it felt to them at the time, but this Midland's campsite where they were going to stay for the night after going to Whiskey Pete's. So they went to the Midland's campsite with their camper and they were going to stay. (0:41:03)

It's never full. It's, you know, that's really unheard of. But when they got there, it was full and they were waved along and they couldn't spend the night there. So Steve, being, you know, the pioneer, let's call it, the guy that's going to, you know, get things, move things forward, said, look, let's go into the desert. We have our camper. We have some steaks. (0:41:34)

We have, you know, we'll make a fire. We'll have a romantic, you know, time in the desert. We'll do stargazing, have some food and make the best of it. So his wife agreed and went into the desert. And why wouldn't you? I mean, why not? A romantic night of, you know, under the stars in the middle of the desert. (0:41:56)

I mean, that just sounds like a one, a fantastic time. Yeah, but it turned out not to be. This is where you add in the, yeah, but Dave. What happened? This is, you know, these are, again, the coincidence was the one thing. So then they get in the desert and they do exactly that. They make a campfire. And again, the husband, Tom, was good at that. (0:42:24)

He was, you know, he was an outdoorsman. And his wife, Elise, you know, sort of followed along. In any case, they made a campfire. They had their camper there. They cooked up some steaks. And interesting, but he thinks he sees something out of the corner of his eye. Now it's a mountainous area. It's in the New York mountains. It's around the desert. The tabletop mountain is in front of them. And there's a smaller mountain to the side. (0:42:54)

And he glances over and thinks to himself, did I just see something? Now, his wife is already a little nervous because they're in the middle of the desert alone. She's heard and read articles that, you know, gangs, motorcycle gangs and whatnot meet there and do drugs or have drugs and transport that people get killed there, you know, because of the isolation of it. (0:43:30)

It can attract sort of outlaw people. So she was nervous about, you know, being held up, maybe raped or whatever. That was in the back of her mind, being so isolated as they were. So what he did see, because it popped out again, almost like a game, was a UFO. Wow. And this would be three, four hundred feet away, incredibly visible. And when he sees it, it goes back. (0:43:55)

He doesn't want to say anything to to Elise because she's already nervous. And can you imagine if he told her that? So he sort of plays it down. But then he notices there's no sound in the desert. They had been feeding, I guess they're squirrel type, you know, creatures, animals that are in the desert. (0:44:26)

They were feeding bread to them, you know, just as a sort of game. There were a lot of sounds in the desert at night that you wouldn't imagine, but there are. (0:44:30)

And all of a sudden they stop. He's thinking back to a time when he was 12 years old when he sees this object. When he was 12 years old, he was fishing with a friend, another 12 year old, and they saw a light in the sky. The light in the sky approached and approached and approached, and they were looking at it like, that's really strange. But then they got really frightened. (0:44:59)

And so they ran. They ran back to the campsite as this thing was approaching, almost hovering over them. And they tell their parents, and their parents are there having a good time, of course, with other parents. And, you know, they discard what they say. They don't take it seriously. But that's the first thing that crashes into Tom's mind when he sees that UFO behind the mountain. (0:45:28)

And now the situation is more than tense. As a big, rough, tough football player, I mean, this guy is used to a lot of rough stuff. Yep. I mean, how was he feeling? I believe Mr. Gifford is his name. And how was he feeling through all of this? How was he able to hold it together for his wife and his family? Well, you're right. (0:46:02)

He is a tough guy. And he is a really responsible guy. You know, he's just one of those people that I don't know if you were in a foxhole and being attacked by somebody, you'd want him next to you. You know, he keeps his wits about him. And he's sort of a man's man, I mean, in that sense. So he's shocked and frightened. (0:46:22)

But he's also stoic about it. He doesn't want to alarm Elise, his wife. He doesn't want to do that, because who knows where that would go? You know, it could just ruin everything. And maybe he thinks to himself, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I just saw something. I don't know. But it was very clear. So the sound has stopped. They're looking at stars now. And so Tom knows a lot about the outdoors. (0:46:57)

So he's pointing out to his wife, well, this is this star and this is this constellation. And you see that that's a double star. And so she's looking, identifying these constellations and stars with him. And then she says, you know, if that's a double star, that must be a triple star, because it was larger and brighter than anything in the sky. So he thinks about it a bit, makes the connection between that a little bit and the UFO that he saw previously. (0:47:43)

And they watch, stunned, as that one object becomes nine objects. And the nine objects form an M, an M configuration over the mountaintop that they're staring out at, which is about 300 yards or so, 400 yards away. No, not that far, 200 yards away. So they can see this M, nine bright, bright orbs. That's not bad enough. (0:48:14)

They start blinking at one another, like a kind of communication. So Elise says to him, what is going on? Do you think we're in the middle of some military exercise because there were some bases around? And he goes, I don't know. Then he says, well, maybe it's some other country or something. There were some rumblings in the Middle East at that time, Operation Desert Storm. Maybe it's an army exercise and these are some kind of secret craft. (0:48:48)

Well, the nine become hundreds, and then they start dropping to the ground. (0:48:57)

They drop to the ground as these white orbs, they're looking straight at them, and then they see red eyes, red eyes, that these white orbs either are carrying or are a kind of gremlins. That's the way they describe it. And they have red eyes and they're on rushing towards them. Now, Tom's adrenaline and survival instinct kicks in. (0:49:34)

So he runs to the camper, gets his Ithaca shotgun and a seven millimeter Browning rifle. And he says, you know, whatever it is, you know, I'm going to defend us. So, of course, Elise's wife is petrified and so is he. And they get this telepathic message. Her first, she's much more sensitive to communications and just detail than he is, just the way it is. (0:50:02)

Maybe it's just, you know, a female thing versus a male thing. I don't know. But she goes, I, they don't want you. They don't want you to fight. It's useless. They want you to go in back of the camper. They want us to go in the back of the camper. And that keeps repeating, go in the back, in our head. (0:50:24)

And then he drops his weapon or puts his weapon to the side, lowers it. And he hears the same thing. And as if sort of hypnotized, they go into the back of the camper. And in the back of the camper, they sit Indian style, him with the gun across his legs, his lap, and two, they call them monitors. So these two sort of electrical, whether, I won't call them beings, objects, let's say, are in the camper's tailgate and they can't move. (0:51:05)

Every time he moves to get out, they move forward and he gets a tremendous jolt of electricity, an electric shock. So they're really trapped. They have no way of getting out. It's like their camper is now a prison cell. Exactly, exactly. By these little electrical beings that look like gremlins. The electrical beings are the monitors and the guards, let's call them. (0:51:32)

These other gremlin type beings are, they call them, they said like, almost like monkeys or that kind of thing. Frenetic, but evil. They felt like this was, these were not, this was not a good thing, not a pleasant thing. And literally they're going over the camper, they're in the trees, hundreds of them. And the wife says to Tom, is this real? He says, pinch me, pinch me. (0:52:04)

I'll pinch you. Do you feel that? Yeah. You know, we're not dreaming. And they're terrified, of course, absolutely terrified. Their hearts are pumping like you can't believe. And he says, tell me what you see right now. And he describes it to her and she describes it to him, so that they're on the same page. They're looking at the same thing, just to question the reality of things. (0:52:33)

Then a very interesting thing happens, and probably the most important. The point I want to make is, this story is almost like a veil or curtain being pulled up on a new reality, on a different reality. It's very large in scope. (0:52:51)

So what happens then is a craft comes over them. The craft is so big, it covers the valley. He estimated that it was the size of a football field. And as Fife Symington, the governor, former governor of Arizona, has said, having a similar sighting of an object the size of a football field, there is no craft that size or that magnitude that can get in the air. (0:53:21)

There's no craft that we have that can even resemble this. Hanging on the underbelly are nine smaller craft, smaller UFO-type crafts, you know, saucer-type crafts. A beam of light comes down, and now they see around them the most terrifying thing you could imagine, these illuminated beings. And the way they describe them is they're bright as light, you know, not yellow light, white light. (0:54:01)

And they have the torsos maybe of a five-year-old, they have spindly legs, spindly arms, eyes, large, large bulbous eyes that don't have pupils, not eyes like your eyes or mine, alien eyes. They surround the camper. And now, just imagine, just imagine, there's this craft above them, they're locked in this camper, they're surrounded by nine of these illuminated beings, and they start getting telepathic messages from that, from those beings. (0:54:45)

But around that same time, the beam of light starts sucking things up into it, cactus, trees, cattle, whatever, insects, sucks these things up into it. So they're watching these things scour the desert basin. And another sort of triangular, smaller, very small compared to the craft, they called it the searcher. It's a triangular thing with red, white, and amber light. And it was combing the basin of the desert as if they were looking to mine something, like to test what's under the ground and bring it up. (0:55:22)

As it turns out, Alumax does mine in that area, and there are rare earths and elements that are used in laser weaponry, etc. So they think maybe that. So in the meantime, just imagine again, this searcher is combing the desert floor. This UFO caps the valley with a beam that in diameter is probably about 100 feet, sucking things up into it. (0:55:56)

These gremlin-type beings are all around them, and these nine illuminated figures surround the camper. The telepathic messages they get, it's almost like they put a syringe in their brain and sucked out experiences. So it was a kind of torture. But if you think about what we would do to a laboratory animal or a laboratory specimen, you know, you don't look at it, I suppose, if you're dissecting a frog, this poor frog. I don't think that scientists look at it that way. (0:56:33)

That was the mode that they were in. These, they were animals in a zoo. They were bacteria under a microscope. And these images that they're getting, some are jubilant, some are scary, some are terrifying, some are humiliating. For example, Elise had been assaulted when she was a child by a man in a park. You know, obviously a terrifying, terrible experience that you'll always remember and a scar. (0:57:15)

She was made to relive that whole experience. The husband, Tom, was a football player, as I mentioned. So he has, like he's in a football field in a stadium where he played and people are cheering him. She has another experience where she's giving birth, but then she sees that the baby isn't there. (0:57:37)

She drifts into another room and she sees the baby surrounded by alien beings. And just incredibly frightening. He is made to feel like he's the hunted, being a hunter. So he's being chased by hunters. He's shot, wounded, they track him down, they skin him. So from things that are like exalting, to things that are humiliating, to things that are downright terrifying. (0:58:18)

They put them through a set of emotions, you know, high to low, that just is mind-wracking, mind-bending. This is way heavier than I ever expected, man. Sorry. Way heavier than I expected. It's the story. Well, and I understand that. And I think it leads to, as we come to a close here, in the first hour of the show tonight, Ron Felber is our guest talking about the Mojave incident. (0:58:45)

I think it opens up a lot of questions, a lot of entertainment to what you're going to explain in the second half of this encounter as we continue on. I mean, wow. I don't know about anybody else out there, but I completely have goosebumps listening to Ron tell this story. Remember, there's no triple stars out there, people. (0:59:07)

If you see one, you got some serious aliens happening at that point. Really, really do. And we're going to continue on here with Spaced Out Radio. Ron Felber is our guest tonight on the Mighty S.O.R. You can find all of his books on Amazon. He's got some great crime-fighting books as well as the Mojave incident, which we are talking about tonight. (0:59:32)

We continue on tonight with Ron Felber, the Mojave Incident. If you miss the first hour of the show, especially the last half hour, wow, it's going to freak you out. (1:07:52)

And his book called The Mojave Incident can be found on Amazon with his others. Ron, welcome back. Good to be back. All right. Now, right before the break, we were talking about aliens starting to surround the camper and things are getting weird and they can't move. They're trapped by these electric beings. And oh man, I'm just pumped right up here. Take us through the second part of this, man. Sure. It's no less intense. (1:08:18)

So the illuminated beings, which I've described as raven black eyes, not eyes like yours or mine, no pupils, spindly body, maybe the torso of a five-year-old or so, but bright white light, brighter than anything they'd seen. Nine of them surround the camper. They're trapped. He has a gun across his legs, which he can't use. (1:08:52)

There are two monitors, electric monitors. So if he moves forward, he gets a tremendous shock from them. So really they are trapped. At the same time, this is almost like an orchestration. Like I said, there's sort of a universe of reality exposed. This searcher, this triangular craft is combing the desert, apparently looking for something, looking for maybe rare earth metals, like it's mining. (1:09:16)

They hear around this time, with the mothership capping them, these gremlin creatures, frenetic, climbing on the camper, climbing in the trees, hundreds of them. They are getting memories, some good, some incredibly terrifying, and some altered to be terrifying in their minds, like mind-shattering things, things about maybe being accosted, somebody, a woman, Elise being accosted as a child. (1:09:58)

Other memories, like hunting in the woods with his father and brother, this would be Tom, but other things where he's being hunted, and actually shot and skinned. So these things are made, it seems, to emote emotions, fear, exultation, laughter, all of the emotions, the range of emotions that humans experience. So literally, they're in the camper, sobbing, laughing, and they're each going through their situations. (1:10:39)

And it seems like these illuminated figures are scientists, and they're probing their minds to find out how human emotions work, because apparently that's something that later on she finds out, and we find out, that that's something that is of great interest to them, the way the human mind works and emotions. The mining operation that I mentioned was going on continues, but now they get an odor, an odor like phosphorus, or sulfur, or rubber burning, a very heavy odor, and they can feel a drill, like a drilling, shaking the earth around them. (1:11:23)

In the meantime, the mothership has a beam that's shot down about 100 feet in diameter, sucking things up into the craft, as I mentioned, trees, animals, cactus, anything that's there that's of interest, and they're terrified. Their hearts are pounding, and they think they're going to have heart attacks. So they're really on the verge of a cardiac arrest, and they know it. (1:12:00)

And then a kind of fog comes in, a kind of fog comes into the camper, which is a kind of anesthesia, I guess, but basically what it does is calm them down. Physically and mentally, it calms them down. They're still terrified, but they're not so terrified that they're going to die of a heart attack. And the insidious part of this, it isn't because they have some pity, it's because they want to keep them alive to experiment more. (1:12:35)

So if you think about a laboratory animal being experimented on by a scientist, the scientist doesn't say, gee, I wonder if this animal has offspring. I wonder what this animal's life was like. No, no. They're interested in the lung. They're interested in the kidney. They're interested in the brain. They're interested in the reproductive systems. That's what this was like. (1:12:53)

That's what this was like. So basically, they're terrified, they're in the back, all of these tremendous orchestration of things is going on around them. Now they're a little bit more calmed down, and they see these things start to recede. And just as they think, my God, they're going away, they come back again in force. (1:13:23)

And again, it's almost like to find out how they react to one thing versus the other. So again, they feel like they're in hell. They feel like they died and are in hell. That's what they're thinking. That's what they said they're thinking. Actually, I could read a quote. Do you mind? Please go right ahead. Here. They wanted everything we had, everything, our minds, our bodies, even our souls. (1:13:52)

It was like they drew it out of us with a syringe, every molecule, and it was painful. And I thought we were going to die, or had already died, and we're being tortured in hell. That comes from Elise Griffith during one of the recording sessions I had with her. So the trauma is more than you could imagine, and intense. (1:14:20)

Now this is what I mean about an orchestration. They see them as, again, they think they've lost their minds, and probably on the verge of losing their minds. They see an angelic presence come from the clouds, a feminine presence. They could feel that. They called it their comforter. And it's an angel, like an angel has descended. The message they get is, it's going to be all right. (1:14:50)

This will be over. You will survive. They thought their kids were in jeopardy at home. Yeah, and this is what I was wondering, where are the children at this time? Because they have two young ones. Yeah, they're being watched by the grandparents, by Tom's father and mother at the residence in La Mirada. Okay, so all of a sudden I was having like a panic attack there. (1:15:17)

The children were in the camper as well. They wind up being involved, but not in the camper. So this angelic presence is really of interest to me, because, I mean, you can take this from a lot of angles, this sort of story. The fact that there's an angelic presence that says everything will be all right, a comforter and whatnot, is almost religious. (1:15:38)

I mean, it is a religious figure, you know, at least stereotypically. The gremlins, you know, evil. I mean, for sure evil. The scientists. So, I mean, you could almost look at this as a kind of biblical story, some crazy biblical story. Or you could look at it as some encounter of massive magnitude. So they now feel like they're sort of pacified, calmer, maybe even drugged. (1:16:12)

(transcript 2of2)

（以下は podcast の文字起こしです。長いの２つに分割し、これは後半部分です。語り手は Ron Felber で、聞き手は Dave Scott です）

And they feel the earth shaking from this mining operation, and they see the the probe with the hundred foot diameter of light, it's sucking things up, start to bring the camper up. And that's all they remember. They wake up the next morning, the campfire is out, so obviously time has gone by. (1:16:47)

It's the morning. They think this is what they think because of the times, I suppose. They think the Russians have dropped bombs. They think this is the end of the world. (1:16:54)

Maybe in a theological sense, you know, angels, devils, all like that. Or maybe it's just the military, you know, at the end of the world has come. That's what they're thinking. And they're thinking that every broadcast, if they can get a broadcast on the radio, will be about this. They turn on the radio expecting to hear about this incredible situation. I think it's global. (1:17:26)

And there's not a word about it. You know, there's a country western song playing and that's it. They start to leave. And of course, they're incredibly shaken. There's an elderly couple that's, you know, more towards the campsite, but at least closer to where they were. They said, did you see anything last night? Because they're really reluctant to say what they saw. And the older couple says, you know, we didn't see anything. (1:17:53)

We went to bed pretty early, so we didn't see anything. They go home and it doesn't end there. They're plagued with horrible nightmares. Some of them where they're surrounded, their bed is surrounded by these alien creatures. Some where their son, Tom Jr., is about four years old, and he has his own room. And they hear him screaming. So they come out, run into his room, and he's spinning like a top, spinning like a top. (1:18:35)

So Elise grabs him, hugs him, and he's inconsolable. He says, they're monsters. You know, they're monsters in my room. And she says, there are no monsters. And he says, oh, there are. They're little and they have red eyes. Now she's angry. He starts screaming, you know, you can do what you want to us, but leave my children alone, leave my children out of this. (1:19:11)

And they have flashbacks. And in these flashbacks, for example, they have memories, Tom, of fighting, of fighting these beings, like going on a kind of... you know, in airports, they have that walk thing where you walk and it pushes you forward. I can't recall what they call it. But he feels like he's on that, battling these creatures in his nightmares. (1:19:50)

She feels like the bed, like they're making love and the bed is surrounded by these things. And he goes, you know, he had no intention of having sex that night. Neither did he, but they did. And she looks at her husband and says, I'm pregnant. And he goes, you know, that's unlikely. He goes, no, I'm pregnant. I know it. And they felt all the while that these things were watching them, watching them in their own home. (1:20:19)

And so every creak in the wood, every clank in a radiator, you know, really has meaning to them. It really is upsetting them. And they're beside themselves. And probably, I mean, neurotic wouldn't cover the base, you know, something much, much more than that. Maybe a lot like what war veterans come back with. And that's what one of the doctors that I took them to, a PDS or whatever. PTSD. Yeah, that PTSD, that that's what they were suffering from. (1:20:54)

Like war veterans, people that had seen atrocities in combat. That's what, when he examined them, that's what they were suffering from. So, so this is where I stepped in. This is where I came into the picture. So they're, you know, in a frenzy. They have no interest. (1:21:15)

Tom all of a sudden has no interest in going to work. He just is lethargic. She is panicked that these things are in her house and they're watching them. They always feel like they're being watched. So it's a kind of hell on earth for both of them. Like after you've experienced that, let's just say it happened to you. (1:21:40)

You know, building a shopping mall is not high on your list of things to do. It's, you know, this is like catastrophic or it's, it's, you know, a major event in human history. And it pales, you know, anything beside it, you know, pales by comparison. So that's the state they were in when I met them. And my friend, Paul Moran, introduced me to them. (1:22:08)

And this would have been Tom's best friend. And I heard this story. I taped it, you know, because I wanted the real words to use for the book, real dialogue and some of the dialogue is incredible. But that's where I stepped in. And I said to myself, you know, look, this is something important. Now, not every person's going to think it's important because as we discussed earlier, a lot of people are just oblivious to all of this. (1:22:44)

And no matter what you did, you know, no matter what you showed them, it wouldn't convince them, you know, it would, you know, if there was some alien that appeared, they'd say it was a fake, you know, it was doctored, or this wasn't real. Or I had a bad night last night. (1:23:00)

And, you know, I was whatever. So sort of the non-believers probably will stay non-believers and the believers will stay believers. But I became a believer in what they said. And I decided that if I was going to do this, because it was important, I didn't care what I had to spend. I wanted to take them to the best psychiatrist that I knew of. (1:23:26)

And that would have been at the Washington Institute of Psychiatric, Study of Psychiatric Disorders. And that would have been Dr. Vitone, Georgetown University graduate, medical school graduate, who checked them out for two days. They took all kinds of tests. And they were as anxious to do this as I was, because they wanted answers. They didn't know what happened to them after they felt that the camp are coming up towards the mother craft. (1:23:55)

So he tested them, all the standard psychiatric tests, he came back, he said, you know, these are very normal people, a little more intelligent than most, etc., but normal. I would like to ask a question, if you don't mind. When you approached the psychiatrist for the psychiatric evaluation of the Giffords, a lot of psychiatrists do not believe in this phenomena. How did you approach the subject about saying, look, these people have had something extraordinary happen? Did you keep it vague? Did you tell him what happened? Or did you just let him figure it out on his own? I told him. (1:24:39)

I didn't tell him the story as an elaborate fashion that I'm discussing it now. But I gave him the spine of the story, let's say. And I just said his name was Bernard Bertone, Dr. Bernard Bertone. I said, Bernie, because I knew him from Georgetown. I said, Bernie, this is a really an incredible account. It's not a story. It's an account. (1:24:58)

And I think you'll want to get to the bottom of this as well. So I want to include you in this. And I know that you could be a key element in telling us, is this some fantasy? Evaluate them. Are they neurotic? Are they psychotic? Are they prone to fantasy? Who are these people psychologically? And that's how I approached it. (1:25:25)

And both doctors that I worked with took it on as a kind of challenge. They didn't laugh. I mean, these are guys that see a lot of things. One was an FBI retrogressive hypnotist and psychologist. And the other, you know, was heading up a psychiatric disorder clinic, the National Center. So they've seen a lot of things in their lifetime, I'm sure. (1:25:52)

And so they were curious, I'd say. Curious. How did the Giffords feel about going to a psychiatrist to see if they were just plain loco and losing it or that this was a real experience? Were they worried about any bias towards their experience? Well, they were very concerned about their perception. That's why they didn't want anyone to know. (1:26:22)

I mean, he felt like he'd lose his job if he told anybody about this. She felt like she'd lose her friends, if anybody. You know, the story is a fantastic one. In truth, both it's fantastic and it's fantastic. But to tell somebody cold, this is what happened to me, they're just going to move away. They're just going to move away. And so they were really concerned about that. (1:26:46)

As far as being examined by these doctors, you know, I told them their credentials. I showed them their credentials, which are really substantial. And, you know, they're really experts, national experts in their field. And they were they wanted to find out they're having these bone crushing nightmares, you know, that just they can't sleep, they can't eat. (1:27:08)

They have no interest in anything. They're just, you know, surviving. So they wanted to find out what happened themselves. So they were, I won't say anxious. I mean, I have to say that Elise was was less enthusiastic, let's say, than her husband. But they did it because they couldn't live without knowing what happened. What did the results say from the psychiatric assessment? Yeah, we got 90 seconds. (1:27:38)

Yeah, it came out that that really, these were responsible people, that they were a little above average intelligence, that, you know, their cognitive abilities were good, that they had no brain dysfunction, physical brain dysfunction, that they were not prone to fantasy. As a matter of fact, Tom was just the opposite, really a bread and butter, stone by stone kind of guy. So, you know, this added tremendously, they took a lie detector test as well, passed with flying colors. So it makes it more credible to me. That's that's how I felt. (1:28:16)

Did it make the Giffords feel more comfortable to know that they weren't psychotic, that they weren't happy? You know, they almost cried. Elise almost cried. Because it's so good to know that we're not crazy. You know, they questioned themselves, you know, they were happy about the result. And I think that's what a lot of people forget in all of this is the people who are experiencing the this phenomena, they're more critical on themselves than anybody, any scientist or any doctor or any critic could be. (1:28:57)

Yeah, yeah, they have nothing to gain and everything to lose. And so I felt flattered that they trusted me enough with the story. (1:29:04)

I don't blame you. I don't blame you. We're gonna continue with the story because there are so many questions, Ron. When we come back, I mean, from the children to I know our audience has some questions built up for you. And we'll get them to ask those questions in the chat room as well. When we come back. (1:29:27)

I mean, this is just an absolutely incredible, true story called the Mojave Incident by Ron Felber. And I'm telling you, you want this book for your library. This is a good one can be found on Amazon. Ron promises his mustache will autograph the book. It's a great lip blade. We'll be back on Spaced Out Radio right after this. I'm not gonna lie, I'm very jealous of your mustache. (1:29:58)

I can't. It's not that good in person. It just does well over these telecast. Sure, sure. So how much time do we have now? We have five minutes. Good. I think it's going well. I hope you agree. Oh, my friend. I am just enthralled. I love stories like this. Well, if I could do stories like this nightly, it would be incredible. Yeah, you should wait till we get to the hypnotic session. (1:30:32)

I mean, not only does it provide questions, it provides answers. And that's really unusual. Yeah, I wish everybody has questions. Not too many people have answers, right? Well, I think that's why we all we're all tuned in is we all want answers for everything. You know, we all want answers. Well, I think this is a glimpse, really a glimpse into some truth. That's what I think. (1:31:04)

Now, is the Giffords the real name? No, that's why I stumbled once or twice on the first names. Ah, I didn't even catch it. Yeah, it's Stephen Dawn Hess. Yeah. Yeah. Now for them, for the Giffords, we'll call them the Giffords. Yes. And for them, do they... Are they completely out of it? Are they still having experiences? You know, I've talked to them since. But maybe, you know, this is over time. (1:31:39)

And you know, just things change, your life changes, everything changes over in over 10 years or longer. I kept in touch with them. And we did a couple of talk shows together. Um, they, they, they proceeded in their lives and tried to bury this pretty much, meaning they don't, this is not something they really want to talk about. Right. They became devout Mormons. And they moved to Utah. And their bishop's interpretation of this was a theological one, a biblical one. (1:32:17)

Wow. Yeah. Which, by the way, I don't discount, you know, the thing about this is, you know, it happened. Okay. You know what happened. But then you say, what does it mean? You know, what does it mean? What, what, what am I catching a glimpse of exactly, you know? I think every experiencer, myself included, wants to know that. (1:32:47)

What does it mean? Why me? Yeah. You know, I mean, I started a nightly radio show over it. (1:32:53)

Right. I mean... So you're going to talk about your encounter or is that something... Yeah. I'll fill you in privately. I've said it too much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Now, their children would be in their early 30s, late 20s, early 30s. Yeah. As far as I know, they have productive lives. And I, you know, I don't know like, you know, this was a glimpse inside them too. (1:33:19)

Yeah. They're giving a glimpse into their soul. That doesn't happen often. And if it does happen, it doesn't happen for long. Yeah. So over time, our relationship became, I'm the author, the subject of the book, rather than, you know, this is what I'm feeling. This is, you know, what happened to me last night. Yeah. Yeah. That situation, you know, just ran its course. (1:33:45)

Yeah. I mean, I think every experiencer who has woken up on the table or found marks on them or whatever, I think we all kind of want to know what is up. I think we really do. And I'm a firm believer, and I don't know, I'll put some tinfoil on my head here when I say this, but I'm a firm believer that there are parts of government agencies in the world that actually know who's been taken and who hasn't. I really do believe that. (1:34:18)

Yep. Yep. I think that's entirely possible. I have some sections, if it's okay to read, which is real dialogue from the tapes, which is really kind of incredible. Yeah, please. I would love you to. Good. We have about 45 seconds. I want to say a big thank you to Chad, Spooky, Flashforward, Jenny on her birthday, Kira, Sally, Dirt Road, Murray, Space Cow, and Cat Chaser for the amazing Super Chats. It's a great way to support what we do on a nightly basis here on the show. (1:34:58)

So thank you so much. Thank you to all the veterans who are tuning on in. You always have a safe home here on Spaced Out Radio. So thank you for joining us. We really do appreciate it. And of course, all our regulars who are here. Excuse me. We appreciate you as well. Don't forget, you can get all of your SOR swag. Go to our website, spacedoutradio.com forward slash shop. (1:35:21)

We got t-shirts, hoodies, everything you can imagine hanging on out. Here we go. We pass a halfway point of Spaced Out Radio tonight. My name is Dave Scott. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. Really appreciate earning your listening ears wherever you are on this beautiful planet we call Earth. Reminder, all of our archives are free. (1:36:05)

All you got to do is go to youtube.com forward slash spaced out radio. Just do old Davey the favor, hit that subscribe button. Our website is spacedoutradio.com. We have a plethora of features for you. Check out our swag, out to Bumblefoot, read up on Shirky Poo's Newswire. Follow us on Twitter at spacedoutradio and on Instagram spacedoutradioshow. (1:36:27)

We continue on tonight with author Ron Felber, The Mojave Incident. If you have missed portions of this show, I'm telling you, you're going to want to rewind this one and check it on out about the Gifford family being abducted by extraterrestrials in the Mojave Desert. They get home, find out that their son is being visited by monsters with little red beady eyes. Ron, welcome back. (1:36:48)

Yeah, good to be back. You know, if it's okay, Dave, we've had a lot of questions, I'm sure, that come up. I have some actual answers that come out of these interviews, which are pretty stunning. But I wanted to start with that. We mentioned that they felt like they were being watched. So this comes directly from the tapes. (1:37:14)

So it's about four weeks after their encounter, and Tom, the husband, is having nightmares. And he thinks he sees several beings around their bed. (1:37:22)

Then the vision is gone, and there's just one remaining. And this is from the tapes. The being is four feet tall. He wears a white luminous uniform with an upturned arrow on the chest. He has no facial features, no mouth or lips, only slits. He passes directly through the wall. He stands behind the headboard. (1:37:49)

He stays there, passes his three long fingers over Elise's face, over and over. Tom can only see the hand. He opens his eyes, and directly above him is the face of the white being. You're dreaming, he hears the voice say. Then he looks to Elise's face and sees the burn marks its fingers have left. Hey, wait a minute, Tom says aloud. This is no dream. (1:38:09)

He turned to Elise and gasped. He was awake. He knew he was awake, and Elise had the burn marks all over her face. Elise's eyes open. The expression on Tom's face scares her. What is it? Go to the mirror, he urges her. Go to the mirror now. Elise walked to the wall mirror above the My God, what is this? She screamed, Tom, Tom, what have they done? They've burned my face. (1:38:33)

That's all right, he said, and holding her close to him. It's going to be okay. He eased away from her. Now you just stay right here, sweetheart, while I go to get a camera. He gets a camera, takes pictures. They're black when he takes them, so they don't come out at all. And the next morning, the burn marks are gone. (1:38:55)

But this is the kind of torture that they're experiencing, and it's no small thing. I had that happen once. Is that true? Not with burns, but with scratches on my back. I woke up one night, or one morning, and my partner says to me, what are those scratches on your back? I had two scratches about four or five inches long, about an inch apart, and they were stutter scratches. You know, like how a cat scratches? It's stutter scratches. (1:39:31)

And I said, I remember saying, I got to get a picture of this. I have no idea what happened. You know, I go to the bathroom. I do my thing. I totally forget. Walk out, eat breakfast, you know, start my day. Four hours later, I remember that I forgot to take the picture of the scratches. Walk back into my bedroom, turn my back, position my phone. Scratches are gone. (1:39:54)

Not even a mark. No scarring, nothing. It's amazing. It's terrifying. Yeah. You feel violated. I'm sure you feel violated, you know? At times. I just want to know what's going on, much like everybody else. I'm going to see if we can put some answers forward. Here we go. This is Elise and Tom. Now, I brought them to a Dr. William Anixter, and he's in Asheville, North Carolina. And he was a former FBI retrogressive hypnotist and a psychiatrist. (1:40:29)

He would do that. So if there were, I don't know, a terrorist bombing or something, he would interview witnesses. They don't remember because of the trauma. (1:40:37)

The hypnosis would get information out of them. So they're hypnotized now. I'm in the room. And the doctor and Tom and Elise. So Dr. Anixter turned in his seat toward Elise, who sat with her body lax, head tilted to one side, lying on her right shoulder. Elise, do you have any idea what these beings want or why they're here? It was macabre, watching as Elise sprang up in her chair, suddenly animated and alert. (1:41:09)

Her voice, rather than soft and emotional, took on a new cadence, which was clipped and direct, quite unlike her. They want to make contact with the population. Tom and I are specimens, imperfect like the human race. When we're ready to communicate with them face to face, then possibly the world will be too. (1:41:33)

Her actions, such as edging forward in her chair at the moment, seem mechanical, as did her voice as she continued. They have to study our reactions, so they know how to approach us. They don't have emotions like ours, so they need us to teach them. They need to understand humans. Do you have some sense, this is the doctor, do you have some sense as to who they are and where they've come from? (1:41:54)

This is Elise. There are five galaxies, theirs is the next closest. In order for all five galaxies to work together one day, they have to start, and they're starting with us, so we'll be united galaxies. What else do you know, the doctor asked, feeling as if he was in contact with someone other than Elise. I know where the universe ends, she said, rattling the words off in staccato fashion, like rounds from a machine gun. Is that something you can put into words? (1:42:26)

Now there was no denying something incredible was happening. Elise says, our universe ends where theirs begins. Our universe ends when all its matter stops mattering to us and starts mattering to them. Everyone in the room looked to one another, stunned at what they heard and what they were seeing. I think that that's an incredible statement. I'll read it again because it's complicated, and can you imagine somebody just rattling this off? (1:43:02)

So it's almost like she was channeling that answer. Yeah, exactly. Our universe ends where theirs begins. Our universe ends when all its matter stops mattering to us and starts mattering to them. When we stop caring about what we're doing, when we stop caring about the earth, they'll start caring about the earth. Wow. That's what I said. I mean, you know what, though? That's pretty profound considering when you look at a lot of other experiencers out there, a lot of the downloads and information they seem to get from extraterrestrials is about the planet and the state of the planet and how we're treating the planet like our own wasteland. (1:44:00)

Exactly. So the fact that they're saying our galaxy ends where theirs begins is when we start treating it better. So that actually makes sense. (1:44:05)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like you say, profound and stated in almost Shakespearean terms. I mean, that's a turn of words and turn of meanings. It's very complicated, you know? Yeah, that's that's why I'm saying it. It sounded like she was channeling that, not being regressed, but actually channeling. It felt that way. So if you want to go on with some of the... Please do. (1:44:34)

So the doctor says, if these beings are in contact with you, tell me what you know about them. Now, this is where it gets almost theological. God created our world in his image, but not theirs or any of the others. The doctor, are there many different kinds of beings? Elise, yes, different ones, different hybrids. When do you think this communication will happen between the aliens and humans? I don't know. (1:44:59)

In my lifetime? How long will you live? The hairs on the back of my neck raised in a normal man's lifetime. Our children's, she said at last. It was then that I had distinct feeling that I was in a chess match of words. Elise had begun to take satisfaction in the cleverness and the sharpness of her responses. Are we watched as a population regularly? Yes, by many different kinds of beings sent on a mission from the one supreme. What does that mean? There's one supreme being that controls all of them. (1:45:38)

He sends missions here. They're not here of their own accord. This is like a president or like a God. What else do you know about the one supreme? The being could care less, the beings could care less if they were here or not. They're just following orders. I was thinking then, where do I take this from here, you know? So you talk about the universe and matter earlier. (1:46:05)

You said our universe ends where theirs begins and then she picks it up. Our universe ends when its matter stops mattering to us and starts mattering to them. I reflected briefly on what Tom had said concerning their intervention into our world if war or mass destruction seem imminent. What does that mean? I don't know. The missions these aliens are on are friendly or unfriendly. They're neutral. (1:46:32)

They could care less. What does the one supreme want? For all the galaxies to live harmoniously together. Do we have a separate God from the one supreme? No. What else do you know about this entity? Is it a being like the others? Read the Bible. I know. Read the Bible. Yeah, that's what she says. I don't see anybody, and maybe it's just me, I don't see anybody under hypnosis saying that. It just sounds too contrived, you know what I'm saying? (1:47:18)

Mm-hmm. I still think she was channeling. Yeah, I don't think it was a good try. I mean, it sounds like it wasn't her. I'll grant you that. None of this sounded like it was her. I mean, you know somebody after you interview them for two years. And, you know, when I saw this person hypnotized, this was like, you know, sitting forward in a chair, very clipped language, very clever sort of language. (1:47:48)

You know, when will they appear? Will they appear in my lifetime? How long are you going to live? I mean, that's not, you know, the normal dialogue. Were you sitting in on this? (1:47:54)

Oh yeah, I was asking some questions. At some point in time, I asked the doctor, Dr. Annexer, if I could ask them questions, and he said yes. So I did. Question from Big Willy, who has a fantastic beard, by the way. Without telling us, if you guys are not comfortable, that's fine. Have they ever come to a conclusion about their daughter's origins then? Yeah, that's really a good question. (1:48:20)

And actually, I was talking to Dave about something like that. They really, frankly, this is what happened. They became very religious. I mean, the comfort that drove them was religion. That's what they flew to, I guess, as a kind of comfort. And they became Mormons and moved to the Salt Lake City area. And they talked to their bishop, who suggested they not discuss this with anyone or their personal matters publicly, and also told them that what they witnessed was devils and angels, and that it was a religious experience that they had. (1:49:10)

So what happened to the child really is not something that I had access to. Well, at least you were in there firsthand watching them go through this. What caught you off guard by their regression? The directness of their answers. As I mentioned, everybody has questions about all this, but these are pretty much answers. When is this going to happen in your children's lifetime? When is this major encounter? (1:49:48)

That's a pretty direct answer. What is their mission? To unite these five galaxies. That's a pretty direct answer. Who is the One Supreme? Is it like kind of a president? Like a god. And she says that like a god, not emphatically, let's say. So Kaiju is asking, and I was going to ask this as well, was there any kind of government involvement in this case? (1:50:14)

No, absolutely not. No. I mean, it's just so amazing. If something happened to you, let's say the craziest thing in the world, I don't know, make it up. And you went to, I don't know who, the police? I mean, who do you go to, the mayor of the town? You go to the governor? I mean, they're just not going to believe you. (1:50:36)

Right. And so the government, no, the government had no involvement with the case. And if they did know anything, and it's almost unimaginable that with the scope of all of this, that someone didn't whether it's radar or this or that, there were military bases not so far from where this happened. They are in the Mojave and there are some military bases. You'd have to think that a lot like the sightings that you see or hear about that the Pentagon just released, that there were radar, that they were on radar, that there were blips that could be seen. (1:51:17)

But if there were, they sure weren't going to tell me about it. All right. So as you continue on here, are they still having experiences? My impression and my belief is that this never goes away. This is something you just live with. (1:51:37)

Like, for example, I mentioned it's like a veteran coming back from, you know, horrendous experience in the war, you know, or maybe you watch your friends murdered and blown up and this and that, just, you know, atrocities. And they come back and they don't talk about it. You know, this is something they just keep inside, but it doesn't go away. Very true. (1:52:07)

At any point, Ron, and we're going to get back into the story here momentarily, as we've got about seven minutes to go. At any point, did they feel like they were, you know, being your personal guinea pigs towards trying to figure out what was going on? Or did they just go with the flow with you because they wanted to know what was happening and you were providing professional people for them? I think that certainly initially they were just in a quandary. (1:52:33)

So he couldn't work, she couldn't eat, they couldn't sleep at night. And these are all, you know, symptomatic of traumatic catastrophe that they experienced. So that makes all kinds of sense. And they were looking for answers too. At that time, when I first met them, there was a half of the story that was missing. They didn't know, they were just having flashbacks to certain elements of the story. (1:53:08)

So they wanted to know too. And so I don't think they thought I was exploiting them. I think, you know, we became, you know, friendly and friends, I suppose. And I don't think they thought that. But I will say this, over time, and I think, you know, basically other people, maybe the bishop from this church, was really more for keeping this to yourself. (1:53:29)

This is a personal experience, an encounter that you had. This isn't for, you know, to make movies about or this or that. And around that time, I would say that our communication became less frequent. Does that bother you that it went that way? Yeah, I mean, I think it always bothers somebody if, you know, you have a friend or friends, and all of a sudden, you know, or even over time, if you're still, you know, in that mode to be friends, and all of a sudden they turn sort of cold. (1:54:06)

Yeah, I mean, I think so. Going back to when they were in the desert that night, did they know what happened with anything that was being pulled off the surface, like the cactuses or the rocks or anything? To them, it looked absolutely undisturbed. The campfire was out. Their clothes were a little tasseled. And I think basically they were in a state of shock. (1:54:40)

They were more interested as opposed to... but they did go back, I should tell you that. But they were more interested in, I guess, first of all, getting away. Second of all, like I mentioned, they thought it was the end of the world. They thought some atomic bomb had gone off or some huge event had happened, and they wanted to know about it. (1:55:05)

So the first thing they did was go to the radio, like what did we... everybody must have experienced this. It was too big for just us to have experienced it. And so I think that's the first thing they did. So I don't think they inspected things, but my guess is that if they did, it would be like the scratch marks you talked about or the burn marks with Elise. It would be normal. (1:55:30)

Right. I mean, that just doesn't make sense. We got about three and a half minutes here before we have to go to break at the top of the hour. Ron Felber, the Mojave incident is what we are discussing tonight. Ron, I mean, you talked a little bit about the children. (1:55:45)

You know, they are now fully adult. Do we know if they are still having experiences? I can't say, but again, I can speculate. And I think they've done the best they can to keep this to themselves. Now, they did share the book with their kids. They had to, you know, because this can't be a secret and they didn't want it to be a secret. (1:56:04)

And I think from all of their points of view, they've just learned to live with it. (1:56:11)

Now, do they still have nightmares? Do they still feel like they're being watched? Yes. Yeah. Up till two years later, and I know that, they were still feeling this sense of being watched. As a matter of fact, Tom has a quote about that. Let me see if I can find it quickly. Spare with me a second, please. (1:56:49)

Yeah, no problem. Yeah. He goes, he goes, talking about them in terms of whether they're evil or what they are. Here we go, right? I'm going to get this. Yeah. Here's what he says, and this is a direct quote. Do you know what it's like to want to protect your family every day and every night and know that you can't even protect yourself? Because whether you see them or not, you can feel them, and it's like they live inside you, inside your brain, and they can do whatever they want, when they want, and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. (1:57:28)

Tom Gifford. I mean, I think that sums it up. I think that tells you, I mean, it's like inside them. Yeah, I mean, this is something that I would assume, and granted on assumption only, that they are still having those type of experiences. And what they're doing is, I think they're hiding behind their Mormonism now in order to try and, you know, maybe relinquish some of that fear or whatever it may be, you know? I mean, that's the feeling that I have. (1:58:04)

I mean, I could be completely wrong. What do they think about you still going around after all these years talking about this story? I think they know that, you know, I'm a writer. They knew, you know, that that's what I do, and they know that this is what I do. So I don't think they have a problem with it. (1:58:25)

I think if they had a preference, this would all stay like right from the beginning. This is not something they really wanted to share. But they were involved in the they saw the book well before it was published, etc. So it wasn't like I just did it. But I think particularly since they were counseled, I think that they would probably prefer that this not be speculated. And actually, I don't use the real names for that reason. (1:58:52)

Right. And, you know, I'm just, I think this is one of those stories, though, that needs to be told. Has Hollywood, as we got about 20 seconds left, has Hollywood ever called about this? I had some interest in it. And I've done some other things. Some of my books have been TV shows, and one of them is being filmed now. (1:59:18)

It's a nonfiction book. There's been some interest in it. But no, it hasn't sold to the movies or to a television. But Paranormal Witness did an hour segment on it. Right. All right. We have Ron Felber for another 30 minutes here on Spaced Out Radio. Gonna continue the UFO talk. Where does he go from here? (1:59:38)

What else is going on? Then we have John Hudson, Shirky Pooh's News, thought of the day, hour three is next. This is fantastic. Yeah, I have a quote that I'll read from Norman Mailer. It's just a short quote, but it sums up one of the possibilities. There are two possibilities that I see. One is these are extraterrestrial visitors. (2:00:16)

And a lot of the biblical stories and whatnot have been misinterpretations of events like this. The other is that there really is a One Supreme, that the One Supreme is God, and that He is trying to unite the galaxies. And in that sense, it's not a scientific but a religious sort of reality, you know, a spiritual reality versus a scientific one. (2:00:50)

And, you know, I could argue either case, particularly with the angel, and particularly with her comments about the One Being, the One Supreme, and the rest. You know, it's like a kind of modern art. You look at it for a long time, and you say, what do you make of this exactly? But it's there. You just have to say, what do I make of it? (2:01:10)

I've come to one or the other, and you could flip a coin as far as I'm concerned. I don't know. Why have you, maybe I should ask this on air, but why have you since then stayed away from UFO books? Because I don't think there's another story like this. I think I, not to be pompous or whatever, I think I wrote the UFO book. (2:01:46)

I think this is the story. And I just don't think I could write a better book, because I don't think I could ever find a better story. Interesting. I mean, this is a pretty good rendering of what happened to these people. And it's prolonged. It's sustained. It's two people, not just one. It's two credible people who have passed through lie detector tests, et cetera, et cetera. (2:02:21)

The story is fantastic, but the detail is incredible. The retrogressive hypnosis is incredible, even the conscious experience. So you have experiences that are conscious and subconscious. There's no other story I know of like this. And I keep an eye out for all this. I just think this is an important story and says more about what is really happening than anything I've seen. (2:02:48)

It's not because I wrote it. It's because of the story. Yeah. No, I could see that. I mean, in your mind, you found perfection in it, you know. And I guess, respectfully, I can totally understand the reason behind that. And I think that's wonderful. I really do, but... I just don't think I could do better. (2:03:17)

Anything I did after this, or another story or some compilation of stories, I just don't think I'll ever come across. And maybe, you know, at least at this stage of the game, I don't think there are many stories with the breadth and the, like I said, a glimpse into another reality. (2:03:33)

Right. Crazy stuff. But how did this story change you personally? Um, well, first of all, I believe that there are extraterrestrials. That's beyond question for me. But I also have to say, and I struggle with the answer to this, but I, you know, I believe in life after death. (2:04:09)

I believe in a spiritual world. I believe that we have been watched for thousands of years, you know, since the creation of mankind. I believe in some sense that's biblical. Do you know what I mean? In some weird perspective, that's the way it comes out on paper, you know, trying to capture these concepts that are so large. So I think it's made me more spiritual. (2:04:28)

See, I would tend to agree with that, you know, going from my own personal... Yeah. Like, I've always had a big belief in God, but I mean, I'm different now, you know, and I don't know how to explain that, but I feel more spiritual. I'm still God-fearing, but I still feel more spiritually connected that I've gone down this road, if that makes sense. (2:05:05)

Yeah, no, it makes all kinds of sense. All right, we have about a minute to go here. I had a bit of an experience, nothing like this, nothing like your experience of this, but just, again, a tiny one. Hold on to that. I'll ask that right off the bat. Okay. As we got about a minute here. And then I have this quote from Norman Mail that's only a couple of lines, but I think it's very profound. (2:05:31)

Absolutely. All right. A big thank you to Chad, to Spooky, to Flashforward, Jenny, Kira, Sally, Dirt Road, Murray, Space Cow, and Cat for the amazing Super Chats. It's a great way to support what we do. Another great way to support us is hit that subscribe button and ring that bell if you haven't already. (2:05:53)

It helps us out. And you can do a little shopping, get your Spaced Out Radio swag on our website, spacedoutradio.com forward slash shop, because we'd love to see you in our gear. We really would. It's kind of cool when that happens. I get all giddy and childlike, you know, fist pump and all that. Thank you to all the veterans who listen to our show. We really do appreciate you. (2:06:11)

You always have a safe home here with us in our chat room and all our regulars. You guys are just the best. You make this so much fun nightly. Get your horns up. We're going to get rocking here in three seconds. ...for all your latest show info. Now back to Dave Scott at SOR. Here we go with the third and final hour of Spaced Out Radio tonight. (2:06:44)

My name is Dave Scott. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us. We really do appreciate earning your listening ears. I want to remind you that you can check us out on our terrestrial affiliates around North America and digitally on KPNL, Talk Stream Live and Revolution Radio. All of our archives are free. (2:07:06)

Just go to youtube.com forward slash Spaced Out Radio. Just do old Davey the favor, hit that subscribe button. (2:07:09)

The Desert Clam has set the password for tonight in the SOR Space Travelers Club, Salmagundi. Salmagundi is your password. Use it wisely, Space Travelers, as the Clam sets a password each and every night right here on Spaced Out Radio. Our website is spacedoutradio.com. We have a plethora of features for you, including rocking out to Bumblefoot. And reading up on Captain Shirk's SOR Newswire. Follow us on Twitter at Spaced Out Radio and on Instagram, Spaced Out Radio Show. For the final time tonight, author Ron Felber is with us. (2:07:49)

The Mojave Incident. It's a book that can be found on Amazon and his website. And I'm telling you, this is a true story and of an amazing encounter that you don't want to miss. It's one you want to add to your library. Ron, welcome back. Good to be here. Have you personally ever had an experience? You know, I mean, nothing of the magnitude of the Giffords, nothing, anything like that, or yours. (2:08:17)

But I would be interested in getting retrogressed because this, I really, I had a dream. And you know, some dreams are just so vivid and so real to you. And this was the dream. I was living near the beach at the time and there was a pond near the house where I was living. And in the dream, I walked the dog, our dog, and we came to the, came to the pond. (2:08:50)

So I looked down into the pond and maybe it was 30 feet deep or less than that even. And there was this, this white object, this round object that was at the bottom of the pond. And this is a dream, but again, very vivid. And so I said, hmm, I put the dog on a post and I jumped in, you know, which is really crazy, even in a dream, because the water is going to be pretty cold and it's not going to be a great experience. (2:09:26)

But as soon as I jumped in, I found myself in a, in this craft and there were beings, a lot like the ones that we've described, who took me around, like for a tour, showed me equipment and showed me various instruments, you know, that were used. And the reason I remember this was that after that dream, and then I came back again, after that dream for a month, I was euphoric. (2:09:59)

I just had this incredible sense of euphoria, which I've never had before. And so I had to think that that dream meant something and was real in some way. And I believe that if I were retrogressed, there'd be a story behind that. Wow. Do you want to be retrogressed? Yeah. Well, I'm going to, I'll figure that out. (2:10:23)

It's just been kind of hectic, but I'm going to, I'm going to do that for sure. During the break, you said something very profound as to why you haven't dipped back into the UFO world regarding stories and UFOs. You just do not think that there is another story out there like this. (2:10:50)

I'm very curious as to why you, you feel that this is the perfect story for you to, to kind of go through and, and, you know, step away from it like a one and done situation. Yeah, it is. I have not lost interest in this. I've watched every possible show on UFOs and alien abductions. (2:11:14)

I read every book. So it's not like I've walked away from the subject, but this is how I feel. I just know I'll never come across another story like this. (2:11:21)

My own view is that this is, like I said, almost like an orchestra, you know, almost like a ballet or something on a large stage. You're seeing all of these things go on and it's like a glimpse into another reality and not just, not just through retrogressive hypnosis. Half of it is brought out through retrogressive hypnosis, but you got to remember for four hours before that, these people were conscious, pinching themselves. You know, do you see what I see? Can this be real? (2:11:51)

Are we crazy? Are we in hell? So, so what you have is a huge scope and breadth. What you have are two credible people that have passed lie detector tests that have been analyzed by psychiatrists that have been retrogressed and a story that answers things, doesn't just ask questions. When you ask, when is this encounter between humans and aliens going to happen? She says, in your child's lifetime. (2:12:25)

And that's a pretty direct answer. You know, who says he's the one supreme? Who is the one supreme? Is it like a president? Is it, you know, an emperor? It's like a God. Why? He wants to combine the five galaxies. He wants to have them live in harmony. And it brings up a quote, Dave, that I find really captures something. (2:12:48)

This is an old quote from 1992 on the David Frost show with Norman Mailer, the author who won a couple of Pulitzer Prizes. And people, many people consider a great, great writer. This is the quote and apply it to this story. The devil might be a presence from another universe. We might be fighting an implacable enemy out there. (2:13:16)

And the devil might be the agent of the implacable enemy with God as the tired general fighting that war with his own agents of hope. Isn't that an incredible quote? When Mrs. Gifford started quoting all of this, I know they are Mormon now, but were they religious people? No, no, they were just, you know, not, no, no, they were, I wouldn't say they were anti-religion. They were just sort of, you know, people that believed in God, but I don't, you know, not, not spiritual, not a member of any congregation or anything like that. (2:13:55)

Right. Okay. So the fact that they were able to, this scared them enough, maybe that's the wrong term, but let's just say this scared them enough to turn towards religion to find answers. Did you ever talk to them why they chose Mormonism over any other one? No, I don't know the answer to that, except that I think that they had a relationship or got a relationship, maybe were referred to a particular bishop that counseled them. (2:14:34)

And really they counseled them and said this was, you know, as I mentioned before, I think there are two ways to look at this. If you take the story at face value, one is that these are extraterrestrials and what you've seen is just a reality. And in former times, prophets, et cetera, misinterpreted all of this and gave it a tremendous religious connotation. (2:15:02)

And so it's either this or that. And to be honest with you, I don't know. I mean, there are things about it that certainly support what Mailer's talking about, this battle between good and evil. And then on the other hand, I mean, these saucers and these motherships, et cetera, these are physical things that have science and technology behind them. (2:15:19)

And so as a primitive, as we are, we see this stuff and say, you know, we don't understand it. It must be heaven sent or whatever. Yeah. Wow. I mean, I really don't know where to go with that. I mean, just the fact that it's the fact that they were able through them to bring in the religious connotation, which doesn't happen with a lot of different people who were abducted. (2:15:52)

Right. No, absolutely not. But still, I mean, it has elements. And maybe it's like this. It depends. There's a guy who wrote a book called From What Seat You're Sitting, From Where You're Sitting. In other words, if you're sitting and seeing something and you're over here, you see it a certain way. If you're sitting over here from this particular seat, your belief system, you see it this way. (2:16:26)

You know, if I had to take a guess at what the reality of it is, I mean, there's no saying that. And by the way, they also say that these beings have been watching us for thousands of years. So my guess would be that these are extraterrestrial creatures, that they're more spiritual in nature than we realize, that they've been here forever, maybe since the beginning of humankind, and that in some ways they intercede. (2:16:56)

Now, if you take that from a religious context, you can make a case. Well, they're angels, they're devils, they're this or that. So it depends what seat you're looking at it from. My own view is that there are other galaxies, that there are visitors, people, aliens that have visited our planet. I think, I believe a lot in what Francis Crick, who founded the double helix of DNA, got the Nobel Prize in science. (2:17:31)

He believes in direct transpermium. And what that is, is that we're aliens, that at the end, there was, there's no, he said that the odds of evolution being true, meaning creating the human brain from a swamp and amoebas or whatever, is equivalent to having a tornado go through a junkyard, leave behind an assembled 747 jet that takes off and goes to Europe. He thinks that the timeframes could not possibly be to create the human brain. (2:18:00)

He believes that meteors and asteroids were sent around the universe, containing DNA. The DNA for human beings, which really was alien DNA. And that that DNA required, you know, far less time than an amoeba. You know, that basically the DNA for intelligence, the DNA for all of these things was sort of pre-mixed and there to flourish. I believe that. I think that's a very reasonable theory. (2:18:40)

And that goes to the heart of a lot of this and sort of explains a lot of things. Maybe we're the children of aliens. It opens up such a Pandora's box. I mean, with everything. And I look at ufology today and I see the dangers of opening up that Pandora's box even more. When you hear this story and you hear the stories of others that maybe aren't as detailed, do you really think now that you are a believer that the 7.8 billion people on this planet are very much ready for any sort of E.T. contact? (2:19:22)

I think that we're being acclimated. You know, if you look from the 40s to the 50s to the 60s to now, you've gone from some blurry pictures, you know, of something that looks like a saucer to really good films and videos to really credible people, law enforcement people. (2:19:47)

Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter, Fife Symington, you know, these are not irresponsible people that have seen UFOs and reported them. So, then you talk about abductions, Betty and Barney Hill, and you talk about where we are now with millions, probably worldwide millions of people saying, I've been abducted. We're moving very close to what Elise Gifford talked about, that in our children's lifetime, in our children's, there will be an encounter, whether we're ready for it or not. (2:20:22)

But I think the time frame is really tightening. I talked to a source of mine a number of months ago, who is very close to this UFO front, on a government level. And I asked him the pertinent question, why now? After four years, since the whole movement with the New York Times article and everything, I said, why now? And he said to me, he goes, why do you think? I said, well, I have two possibilities. Number one, we're in for a false flag invasion, which could start a world war, or, you know, start to make a lot of changes on the planet that we don't want to happen or have happened. I said, but I'm not really believing that. (2:21:28)

I said, number two, I said, I think that the United States government has been given a timeline. And I said, I strongly believe that, that one feels quite right. There's no reason to open up this vault the last four years, after 70 plus years of cover up. And he pretty much said, he goes, go with your gut feeling. You know, he goes, I can't tell you anymore. (2:21:55)

He goes, but if I were you, I would go with your gut feeling. Yeah. Yeah. Whether he's playing me or not because of his position, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's an interesting question, but again, it fits, doesn't it? It fits into the timeline of being, you know, acclimated to the fact that there are aliens. Even you take polls now. I mean, if you ask people, has the earth been visited by aliens? You ask them in the 1940s, I bet 5% would say yes. (2:22:33)

If you ask them now, I'll bet you 70%, maybe, you know, somewhere between 60 and 70% would say yes. That's quite a, quite a leap. But back then though, we were still a very religious society. You know, I mean, you're going back then where, I mean, women were getting their, their bathing suits measured at the beach to make sure they were, weren't close to the knee, you know, because Lord knows the knee could sure turn a man on back in the day. (2:23:06)

Yeah. You know, I mean, but that's the reality of it. I mean, so do you think then that what we are seeing in ufology today is healthy for the public? Or do you see it as something that there is a narrative being played here? We got to watch out for whatever that narrative is. (2:23:26)

I think it's inevitable from a government's point of view. I mean, what do you do with cameras all over the place? Like we have now and didn't have, you know, video recorders, you know, cell phones that you can take photos of. I think that, that the weight of just all of these people that have had experiences becomes heavy. (2:23:46)

And I think at some point in time, the dam bursts and they at least let the water out slowly. But part of it is, OK, here are three or four videos recorded, you know, by jet fighter pilots. I mean, these again are not just frivolous people, you know, and I think we're very near. (2:24:09)

So let's say in the next, I think in the next 50 years, within the next 50 years, there will certainly be a human to alien encounter that's very open and very much real. Well, I'm hoping so. I just don't know, like I said, whether or not the public is ready. The public likes to talk tough. Everybody likes to talk tough on the internet. The majority of the people, even in ufology, are claiming, oh, we're ready for it. (2:24:34)

They've never had an experience on their own run. Yeah. They don't know what it's like. Yeah. So I think there's that great debate that continues to go on. Kaiju has a question for you. (2:24:49)

How do you personally imagine the reveal to happen? That's really a good question. You know, I mentioned this before, you know, people say, well, you know, I'll believe in this when a spaceship lands on the White House lawn and an alien comes out and meets the president. That's when I'll believe this is true. I think something like that will happen. I think there'll be a major event. (2:25:23)

I don't think it'll be, you know, thousands of UFOs or crafts coming in some kind of takeover. I think it will be almost like a diplomat. And I could imagine a speech being given at the United Nations. It has to happen that way. I don't know another. That's the only way that you could avert, you know, if that happened and it were put out in the right way within the next 50 years. (2:25:56)

So imagine, you know, a lot will happen that acclimates us even more. But I think the other thing that drives this is what Elise said. They'll start caring when we stop caring about the Earth. And I think we're not far from saying we're not caring. Well, if you see the way we're treating our planet today, not to go all environmental. Yeah, exactly. You see what the way we're treating our planet today. It's pretty obvious. (2:26:36)

Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, I think that, like I said, maybe we're the offspring of an alien civilization. And this would go back to Frick's theory. And if we are, we're the children of these beings. And if we're in a kind of brotherhood or childhood, probably child by comparison, I think they probably care about humans. And maybe they don't have emotions like ours. (2:27:10)

And maybe the reason they're studying emotions like ours is to make this communication happen in a way that doesn't totally freak out the world. Did you ever read a book by Philip Kraft called, oh goodness, what's it called now, about his ET encounters with the Verdants? No, I haven't. Okay, Philip Kraft was 34 years, he worked for the LA Times and didn't believe in any of this, you know, and all of a sudden, one day, one weekend, his wife goes away and he gets taken for three days. (2:27:53)

And he has shown everything, including, which is very interesting to what you worked on with this story, was about God. And these Verdants claim that they actually know where heaven is in the solar system. Wow. And they've been there. And it's a great story. Anybody wants to check it out? Philip passed away now. But he wrote this story in the late 90s, going into the 2000s, when the contact was supposed to be made, that 9-11 happened, and it screwed everything up regarding the Verdants ET conbreed. (2:28:29)

I'll take a look for it. Yeah, K-R-A-P-F is his last name. Kraft. Okay, I'll look for it. Do me a favor, we got 40 seconds left, let everybody know where they can find the Mojave Incident and the rest of your books. (2:28:42)

Yeah, well, I have a website, it's ronfelber, F-E-L-B-E-R dot com. It's pretty simple. My books are on Amazon, they're on Barnes and Noble. If you just go to the internet and put in ronfelber, R-O-N-F-E-L-B-E-R, you'll see, you know, a lot of ways that these books can be purchased, and particularly the Mojave Incident, which really has been, just people are fascinated by it, and it's been selling, you know, for quite a long time. (2:29:13)

Well, Ron, we appreciate you coming into Spaced Out Radio, and this was my first time interviewing you, and I'm just so impressed with your knowledge and your ability to tell us this story. Thank you so much. My pleasure, Dave. Coming up next, we have John Hudson. He's got his fedora on, he's ready for the UFO report. We have Cherokee Poos News, thought of the day of a jam-packed third and final half-hour of this show tonight, so stick around. Spaced Out Radio continues right after this. (2:29:47)

That was fantastic, my friend. A lot of fun. Hey, you know, I've got a new book. I'm just, it's finished, and I'm just in the process of finding a publisher. I have four publishers interested, but it's a really interesting story. It came to me from Bill Blatty, William Peter Blatty from The Exorcist. Right. He gave me an account that happened in Boston at Harvard University. It was studied by Harvard University from 1898 to 1904. The great psychologist William James was part of the team that examined this woman. And it's sort of a murder mystery with the paranormal written all through it. (2:30:34)

Really? It's just an incredible true story. It's called The Unwelcome, The Curious Case of Clara Fowler. Oh, if you want to come back on, man. I'd love to. We'd actually like to get you on to talk some true crime stories that you've written too. Sure. Whatever you say, I'm very interested. Yeah, I'll get my team to check in with you in a couple of months. (2:30:56)

Yeah. Because we try and do like a four to five-month rotation, as you know. Sure. We'll bring you back in to check it on out. Sounds great. Yeah, my friend. You take care. You too. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure. And we'll talk to you soon. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Ronald Felber, everyone. How good of a story and show was that? That was fantastic. (2:31:24)

(2025-08-16)