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Sioux Oliva : チャネリング本 "Urantia Book" を語る

· 73 min read

前置き​

後述の本(*1)の著者がその本の内容を語っているインタビュー動画が情報源で、それを AI(NotebookLM plus) で整理した。

現在では 社会的にも科学的にも否定されている主張が多く含まれているため、注目されてこなかった「昔のチャネリング本」の解説…という意味で記録に値する。

インタビューでは Whitley Strieber と Sioux Oliva の主観や個人的見解が大量に混入しているため、それらのゴミの山の中から "Urantia Book" に関する事実だけを抽出するのは精神的苦痛でしかない。

だが、現在は AI がそのフィルターを引き受けてくれるので、手軽に事実のみに絞った記録を作成できる。

概要 by AI

ユランティア書の歴史的起源

この音声コンテンツでは、歴史家のスー・オリバーがウィットリー・ストリーバーとの対談の中で、彼女の著書「Dr. Sadler and The Urantia Book: A History of a Spiritual Revelation in the 20th Century」について語っています。

主にウランティア書の歴史的起源や内容に焦点が当てられています。ウランティア書は、ウィリアム・サドラー博士が非人間的存在からの啓示を受け取ったとされる経緯で生まれました。科学的に否定されている部分もあるものの、精神的な探求者にとっては価値のある資料と見なされています。

本書は、神や宇宙、そして死後の世界の旅といった概念を提示しており、自己の道徳的選択が魂の成長につながると説いています。

情報源 : Youtube 動画(1:11:27)​

The Controversial, Mysterious and Powerful Urantia Book

(*1)​

引用＋DeepL
gh_20250607_book.jpg

Sioux Oliva, "Dr. Sadler and The Urantia Book: A History of a Spiritual Revelation in the 20th Century", 2014

Dr. William S. Sadler professed that a group of celestial beings began to communicate to him through a sleeping man in Chicago from 1911 until 1923. He and his wife, Lena Sadler, both well-known and highly respected local physicians, claimed there were "probably 250 night sessions," during which these celestials spoke through their patient. The identity of the patient was never revealed. From 1924-1934, the Sadlers held a Forum in their home to study the voluminous notes and to compose questions for the celestial beings about human origins and destiny. The result was The Urantia Book, which claims to be the fifth epochal revelation to humankind. Published in 1955, it has sold over 750,000 copies by word of mouth. Although translated into 17 languages, relatively few people know about it or the amazing story of its creation. The History Of The Urantia Book explores the professional lives and spiritual pursuits of the Sadlers and the extraordinary role that Dr. Sadler played in bringing this 2,097-page tome to the world. It compares the "origin story" with the scholarly discovery of relevant facts and circumstances that led to its publication. It also sheds new light on the fiercely protected identity of the "patient" and likely scribe for these revelations.

ウィリアム・S・サドラー博士は、1911年から1923年までシカゴで眠っている男性を通じて、一群の天界の存在が彼に通信を始めたと主張しました。彼と妻のレナ・サドラーは、地元で著名で尊敬される医師であり、これらの天界の存在が「おそらく250回の夜間のセッション」を通じて、彼らの患者を通じて話したと言いました。

患者の正体は決して明かされませんでした。1924年から1934年まで、サドラー夫妻は自宅で開催したフォーラムで、膨大なメモを研究し、天界の存在たちに対して人類の起源と運命に関する質問を構成しました。その結果生まれたのが『ウランティア・ブック』で、人類への第五の時代的啓示であると主張しています。

1955年に刊行されたこの本は、口コミで75万部以上を販売しました。17言語に翻訳されていますが、その存在や驚異的な創作物語を知る人は依然として少数です。『ウルティア・ブックの歴史』は、サドラー夫妻の職業人生と精神的な探求、そしてサドラー博士がこの2,097ページに及ぶ大著を世に送り出す上で果たした非凡な役割を検証します。

また、この「起源物語」と、その出版に至った関連事実や状況の学術的発見を比較し、これらの啓示の「患者」でありおそらく書記役であった人物の厳重に守られてきた正体についても新たな光を当てています。

ref: Amazon | Dr. Sadler and The Urantia Book: A History of a Spiritual Revelation in the 20th Century | Oliva PH D, Sioux | 20th Century https://www.amazon.co.jp/Dr-Sadler-Urantia-Book-Revelation/

要旨 by AI

ブリフィングドキュメント：ユランティア書の歴史的起源に関するWhitley StrieberとSioux Olivaの対談要約

ソースの解説:​

このブリフィングドキュメントは、オカルト作家であるWhitley Strieberが、歴史研究者のSioux Olivaをゲストに招いて行ったPodcastインタビューの文字起こしに基づいています。対談の主題は、Sioux Olivaの著書「Dr. Sadler and The Urantia Book: A History of a Spiritual Revelation in the 20th Century」の内容紹介です。この要約は、主観的な意見や個人的な感想を排除し、事実として語られている事柄に焦点を当てています。

主要テーマと重要なアイデア・事実:​

この対談で明らかになったユランティア書の歴史的起源と主要なテーマは以下の通りです。

  1. ユランティア書の起源:
  • ユランティア書は、1911年頃にシカゴの医師であるウィリアム・サドラー博士が、睡眠中に奇妙なことを話す男性（「眠る被験者」と呼ばれる）からの電話を受けたことから始まった。
  • この出来事は、1911年から1955年までの44年間にわたる「非人間的知性（NHI）」からの情報の受信へと繋がった。
  • 1911年から1925年までの期間は、眠る被験者を通して情報が伝えられた。
  • 1924年に、天上の存在（NHI）から「ユランティア書」というプロジェクトを行うよう告げられた。「ユランティア」は地球の名前であり、これは地球に「第五番目のエポック的啓示」をもたらし、人々が神との関係を理解する助けとなることを目的としていた。
  • 1930年から1935年まで、「フォーラム」と呼ばれるサドラー博士の患者や友人からなるグループが、非人間的知性に対して質問を行い、回答を受け取った。これは自動書記のような形式だった可能性がある。
  • 1946年から1952年までの最終段階を経て、ユランティア書は1955年にシカゴのユランティア財団から出版された。
  1. ユランティア書の内容と構成:
  • ユランティア書は2097ページにも及ぶ大著である。
  • 本文は多数の非人間的知性からの情報で構成されている。
  • 本の最初の2部は「ソースが不明」な部分が多く、最も密度の高い内容となっている。
  • 第3部と特に第4部（イエスに関する文書）は、ほぼ完全に人間の情報源に基づいている。ユランティア書は可能な限り人間の情報源を使用し、必要な場合にのみ啓示的な情報に頼ったと明記している。
  • 使用された人間の情報源の著者は、100年前に非常に有名だった学者や著名な人物であった。
  • この本の科学的な記述の多くは、執筆当時の20世紀初頭の科学理論を反映しており、現在では信用されていない部分がある（例：優生学）。
  • しかし、ユランティア書自体は、その科学的な記述がすぐに正確でなくなることを明確に述べている。
  • ユランティア書は、組織化された宗教に対して批判的であり、個人と神との直接的で自由でオープンな、そして愛に満ちた関係を重視している。
  1. ユランティア書が伝える神の概念と宇宙論:
  • ユランティア書は、神を「全てであり、遍在するもの」と捉えている。
  • 人間の精神には、「思考調節者」と呼ばれる神自身の小さな断片が宿っている。これは直接語りかけるのではなく、主に睡眠中に、より良い決定を促し、神へと近づくよう導く。
  • 神は時間と空間の外の「パラダイス」と呼ばれる場所に住んでいる。
  • 人間は死後、より非物質的な新しい体を得て、「マンション・ワールド」と呼ばれる7つの段階を経て進化し、最終的にパラダイスを目指す。宇宙は巨大な学校であり、私たちは自分自身の意思決定によって魂を成長させる。
  • 嘘をつくなどの道徳的に誤った決定は、魂に「鉛の重り」のように付着し、アセンション（上昇）を妨げる。
  • 地球は「実験的な世界」であり、「生命担送者」と呼ばれる存在が生命をインストールし、DNAを調整するなどの実験を行っている。
  • ユランティア書の核心は「神は愛である」ということである。
  • イエスは、この「ローカル宇宙」の創造者であり、地球に来る前に6つの世界に自分を授け、私たちにお互いとの関係、そして最も重要な神との関係を持つ方法を教えた。
  1. 非人間的知性（NHI）と人間の関係:
  • ユランティア書は、人間にとって見えない数百、数千もの存在が常にここにいると描写している。
  • 天使（セラフィム）は、より高次の存在と人間との間の媒介者として機能する。天使には翼があると描写されることがあるが、ユランティア書ではこれを「摩擦遮蔽板」と呼んでいる。
  • 「ミッドウェイ・クリーチャー」と呼ばれる存在は、人間に最も近い存在であり、地球に住んでいる。これはグレイのような存在を示唆している。
  • ユランティア書は、私たちが成長していく上で多くのサポートが存在するが、進歩するためには道徳的で愛に満ちた決定を自分自身で行うことが重要であると示唆している。
  • 地球は「隔離された惑星」とされているが、実際には現在、人間とNHIとのコミュニケーションは存在している（例：Whitley Strieber自身の経験）。
  1. ユランティア書の解釈と向き合い方:
  • ユランティア書の記述は、人間が理解しやすいように階層的な形で説明されているが、スピリチュアルな経験はより個人的で直接的なものであると示唆されている。
  • ユランティア書は、読者に批判的に物事を考えるよう促し、どのように考えるべきかを指示するのではなく、探求し、自分自身の問いを見つけるよう促している。
  • この本は「フォローする」対象ではなく、探求と発見のための「ブループリント」であると解釈できる。
  • ユランティア書は、困難な状況にある人類に、自己の魂を成長させる機会と、死後も進化を続ける希望を与えている。
  1. コミュニティと愛の重要性:
  • ユランティア書は、私たちが皆、神の子であり、兄弟姉妹であるという理解を強調している。
  • 困難な時代において、互いを兄弟姉妹として理解し、愛に基づいて行動することがコミュニティを築く上で不可欠である。
  • 愛は宇宙の本質であり、神の本質である。愛を与えれば与えるほど、それは尽きることなく補充される。

引用:​

  • 「この夜から、この男性が、神との関係に対する新しい理解を世界にもたらすために、多数の非人間的知性からの情報を話し、書き記すとされる44年間の関係が始まりました。」(0:03:18)
  • 「この本には、それ自体が信用されなくなった多くの科学理論が含まれているため、ある種の信用失墜を被りました。」(0:01:45)
  • 「しかし、この本はまた、真剣なスピリチュアルな探求者にとって非常に強力なリソースでもあります。」(0:01:45)
  • 「テキスト自体に、可能な限り人間の情報源が使用されたと書かれており、啓示的な情報は、彼らの権限のもとで、人間を助けることができる場合にのみ頼られたと書かれています。」(0:07:01)
  • 「ユランティア書は、執筆された当時の科学を反映しています。それは、20世紀初頭でした。」(0:13:40)
  • 「ユランティア書もまた、科学は長くは正しくないであろうと非常に明確に述べています。ですから、著者たちは最初からそれを認めています。」(0:14:12)
  • 「ユランティア書は、あなたがたユランティアの人間は、あなたがたが住んでいる宇宙や神について明確な理解を持っていないと述べている最初の段落を読んで、私は夢中になりました。」(0:06:32)
  • 「組織化された宗教についての一つのことは、ユランティア書が非常に反対していることですが、それはあなたが内向きになり、あなたの本に書かれていることをただ信じるだけになるということです。」(0:14:41)
  • 「それは、個人と神の間に一種のフィルターを置いてしまうからです。」(0:20:09)
  • 「それは神を全てであり、至る所にいるものと捉えています。」(0:20:09)
  • 「私たちの精神の中に、思考調節者と呼ばれる神自身のごく一部が授けられているということです。」(0:20:59)
  • 「あなたは子供の頃に最初の道徳的な決定をした時に、思考調節者を与えられます。」(0:24:16)
  • 「良い道徳的な決定をすることは非常に重要です。」(0:25:27)
  • 「メッセンジャーは私に、それぞれの嘘は魂に小さな鉛の重りのようにつきまとうと言いました。それは魂に付けられます。」(0:30:16)
  • 「ユランティア書は、本質的にアセンションのための青写真です。」(0:33:30)
  • 「エンライトメントとは、私たちの内に残ったものが愛だけになったときに起こることだ、と彼女は単純に言いました。」(0:53:15)
  • 「私たちが愛と呼ぶエネルギーは、本当に宇宙の本質であり、私たちの宇宙の父とでも言うべき存在の本質です。」(0:53:56)
  • 「ユランティア書もまた、私たちは隔離された惑星であると述べています。なぜそうなのかは今すぐには触れませんが、コミュニケーションがないということは、明らかに正しくありません。」(1:07:16)

このブリフィングドキュメントは、提供されたソースに基づいて、ユランティア書の起源、内容、主要な教え、そしてそれを取り巻く議論についての重要な情報をまとめています。

timeline と主要関係者

タイムライン​

  • 1880年代頃から: 優生学が盛んになり、一部の人々の間でより優れた人間を繁殖させるという考えが広まる。これには、人種差別的、女性差別的な側面を伴う劣悪な科学が混在していた。
  • 不明 (20世紀初頭): ジョン・ハーヴェイ・ケロッグの指導の下、バトルクリーク・サナトリウムでウィリアム・サドラー博士とレナ・サドラーが出会う。
  • 不明 (20世紀初頭): ウィリアム・サドラー博士とレナ・サドラーは結婚し、シカゴに移住する。
  • 1911年頃: サドラー博士は、夫が睡眠中に奇妙なことを話しているという女性から電話を受ける。これが「睡眠被験者」との44年間の関係の始まりとなる。
  • 1911年 - 1925年: サドラー博士夫妻は、「睡眠被験者」と呼ばれる男性と関係を築く。この男性は、非人類知性（NHI）から情報を受け取り、それを話したり書いたりしているとされた。
  • 1924年: 「睡眠被験者」を通して、天上の存在（NHI）が「ユランティア書」というプロジェクトを行いたいという発表があったとされる。これは、地球（ユランティア）に「第5時代の啓示」をもたらすことを目的としていた。
  • 1930年 - 1935年: サドラー博士らは「フォーラム」と呼ばれるグループを結成し、これらの存在との間で質疑応答を行った。フォーラムのメンバーが質問を書き、存在がそれに答えた。
  • 1942年 - 1946年: 「ユランティア書」のテキストの最終調整が行われたとされる（書き起こしでは1946年と1942年の順で述べられているが、時系列として後者が先と思われる）。
  • 1955年: ユランティア財団によって「ユランティア書」がシカゴで初めて出版される。
  • 1955年以降: ユランティア財団は、「ユランティア書」を多くの著名人に送ったが反応がなかったため、広告を行わず、人から人へと伝える方法で普及活動を行うようになる。
  • 出版以降: ユランティア書に書かれている科学理論の多くが時代遅れとなり、特に優生学に関する内容は批判の対象となる。しかし、本の精神的な内容は評価される。
  • 数十年間 (スー・オリバが10代後半の頃から): スー・オリバは「ユランティア書」に出会い、個人的に読み続ける。
  • 数年前から: マシュー・ブロック氏が「ユランティア書」に使用された人間的な情報源を特定する作業を開始し、数百もの情報源を発見する。
  • 最近 (ポッドキャストの収録時期): スー・オリバが、ウィリアム・サドラー博士と「ユランティア書」の歴史的起源に関する著作を出版する。
  • ポッドキャスト収録時期: ウィットリー・ストリーバーが、スー・オリバを招き、「ユランティア書」とその歴史について議論するポッドキャストを収録する。
  • 現在 (ポッドキャスト収録時期): ユランティア財団はシカゴの同じ場所にあり、「ユランティア書」は26言語に翻訳されている。地球上では異常気象や社会の分断など、多くの困難が経験されている。非人類知性（NHI）の存在がより広く認識されるようになっている。

キャスト・オブ・キャラクターズ​

  • ウィリアム・サドラー博士 (Dr. William Sadler): シカゴ在住の医師。妻のレナ・サドラーと共に、睡眠中に非人類知性からの情報を受け取るとされる「睡眠被験者」との関係を築き、「ユランティア書」のプロジェクトに関わる。優生学者でもあった。
  • レナ・サドラー (Lena Sadler): ウィリアム・サドラー博士の妻で、自身も医師。「睡眠被験者」との関係や「ユランティア書」のプロジェクトに夫と共に深く関わる。
  • ジョン・ハーヴェイ・ケロッグ (John Harvey Kellogg): バトルクリーク・サナトリウムを経営していた人物。サドラー博士夫妻は彼の指導の下で出会った。
  • スー・オリバ (Sue Oliva): 南カリフォルニア大学で歴史学の博士号を取得した歴史家。「ユランティア書」の専門家であり、ウィリアム・サドラー博士と「ユランティア書」に関する著作の著者。スピリチュアルな探求者でもある。
  • ウィットリー・ストリーバー (Whitley Strieber): ポッドキャスト「Dreamland」のホストであり、オカルト作家。非人類知性（NHI）との接触体験を持つとされる。スー・オリバの著作を紹介し、「ユランティア書」について議論する。
  • 睡眠被験者 (The sleeping subject): 1911年から44年間にわたり、睡眠中に非人類知性から情報を受け取っていたとされる匿名の男性。サドラー博士夫妻が彼を通して「ユランティア書」の情報を得たとされる。
  • フォーラム (The Forum): サドラー博士の患者や友人たちで構成されたグループ。「ユランティア書」に関する質問を非人類知性に投げかけ、その回答を得る役割を担った。
  • コンタクト・コミッション (The Contact Commission): レナとビル・サドラー、レナの姉とその夫（別のケロッグ氏）、そして彼らが後に養女としたクリスティで構成されたグループ。非人類知性と直接的に接触していたとされる。
  • マシュー・ブロック (Matthew Block): スー・オリバの友人。非人類知性から啓示されたとされる「ユランティア書」のテキスト内に使用されている人間的な情報源を特定する研究を行っている。
  • クリスティ (Christy): サドラー博士夫妻が養女とした女性。「コンタクト・コミッション」の一員。
  • 非人類知性 (NHI): 「ユランティア書」の情報を伝えたとされる、人間ではない存在の総称。宇宙の様々な階層に存在する。
  • 思念調節者 (Thought adjuster): 「ユランティア書」に登場する、神が人間の心に宿らせたとされる微細な断片。人間に良い方向へ進むよう促す役割を担う。
  • 生命運搬者 (Life Carriers): 「ユランティア書」に登場する、惑星に生命を運び、設置する存在。地球は彼らによる実験的な世界とされる。
  • セラフィム (Seraphim): 「ユランティア書」に登場する、高次の存在と人間の仲介役を担うとされる存在（天使）。
  • 中間者 (Midway creatures): 「ユランティア書」に登場する、地球に住む人間に最も近いとされる存在。グレイに似た外見と描写されることもあったとされる。
文字起こし

（簡単なソースの解説）

以下は、オカルト作家の Whitley Strieber が米歴史研究者の Sioux Oliva を招いた Podcast インタビューの文字起こしです。主題は Sioux Oliva の著作である "Dr. Sadler and The Urantia Book: A History of a Spiritual Revelation in the 20th Century" の内容の紹介。

Whitley Strieber と Sioux Oliva の主観や個人的意見が大量に混じっているが、主観はできるだけ排除し、事実とされている事柄に絞って要約、整理してほしい。

（ここから文字起こしの本文）

This is Whitley Strieber, and this is Dreamland. You have reached the edge of the world. Today on Dreamland, we're going to do something that I have been wanting to do for a long time. There's a book out there, a huge book, that is important, very important to certain people, and should be more important to us. The book suffered a kind of a catastrophe over the years for reasons that we will discuss with our guest. (0:00:49)

Our guest is a PhD in history from the University of Southern California, and she is also an expert on the Urantia book. I'd like to welcome Sue Oliver to Dreamland. Sue, of course, is also a good friend and a dear friend, and I have enormous respect for her tremendous skill as a scholar. (0:01:20)

And I want to unpack today this amazing book. When we were first starting, I said to Sue, we'll get into the problem with the science later on, but I think that's really where we should start, because the book has been kind of discredited, because it's got a lot of scientific theories in it that have in themselves been discredited. (0:01:45)

But the book is also a very powerful resource for anyone who is a serious spiritual seeker. Sue, welcome to the show. Thank you, Whitley. I'm honored to be with you. Well, good. I'm honored to be with you, too. And instead of being at a party or hanging out at Conact in the Desert together, we're sitting here on Zoom. Right. Yeah, okay. (0:02:14)

Now, the Urantia book, tell us a little bit about its history. How did it come about? Well, it has actually quite an interesting history. There was a gentleman by the name of Dr. William Sadler, who lived in Chicago, Illinois, with his wife, Lena Sadler, who was also a physician. And they had met each other up in Battle Creek under the tutelage of John Harvey Kellogg, who ran the Battle Creek Sanitarium, the SAN, as it was noted. (0:02:52)

And they met there and were married and moved to Chicago. And about 1911, Dr. Sadler got a phone call, this is the origin story, from a woman who said that her husband was talking and saying strange things in his sleep. And so Dr. Sadler went over there in the middle of the night, and the man was moistening his lips and trying to speak. (0:03:18)

And this evening started a 44-year relationship where this man was purported to be speaking and writing information from a multitude of non-human intelligence to help bring new understanding of our relationship with God to the world. And so there are multiple phases of this. From 1911 to 1925, this gentleman called, who was the contact, was called the sleeping subject. And the Sadlers dealt with him, and the wife would call in the middle of the night, and soon he moved quite close to them so that they could go and listen to what this man was saying. (0:04:01)

And then in 1924, there was an announcement through this gentleman stating that a celestial being, an NHI, wanted them to do a project called the Urantia book. Urantia is the name of Earth, to bring the fifth epical revelation to the planet that would help people understand their relationship with God. So the book began then. (0:04:27)

So they put together a group they called the Forum. And from 1930 to 1935, they had a Q&A with these beings, which they would write questions, and the beings would answer the questions. It sounds like automatic writing, I'm not really sure. And through Sadler said they had conversations with these beings many times throughout this period. And there were three major beings that spoke to them, along with all the other beings. (0:04:56)

I mean, the book is just completely full of non-human intelligence. And then... That's right, it sure is. (0:05:01)

Yeah, and then the last phase, phase four, was 1946 and 1942, where it was just the finalizing of the text. And then it was finally published through the Urantia Foundation in Chicago in 1955. The Forum was very excited, and they sent copies of the Urantia book to a multitude of luminaries all over the United States and got no response. (0:05:31)

So then they learned their lesson that it's probably best to be, you know, person to person, told person to person that it was not going to be advertised. And so that's how it's really been. The Urantia Foundation really hasn't done much advertising at all. They're still located at 533 Diversity Parkway, and they translate the book, I believe is in 26, been translated into 26 languages now. (0:05:54)

Okay. Now, at some point, Stu Oliver comes along, a history, professor of history, and a very curious person, also a spiritual seeker of the first order. And how did that happen? How did you happen to seek into this book? Well, when I was 17, I had a friend, I lived in San Diego, and I he had this fabulous house on a hill that when he would go out of town, he would let my girlfriends and I stay there, which of course, was great fun, because no parents. (0:06:32)

And when we went to his house on his table was a copy of the Urantia book, which as you know, it's 2097 pages, it's a tome. And I opened it up and read, you know, the first paragraph that talks about you mortals on Urantia don't really have a clear understanding of the universe you live in and God and I was hooked. And I bought my parents bought me a copy for my 18th birthday. (0:07:01)

And I read the text off and on by myself for a couple decades before I got in touch with the Urantia Foundation. And as I was sort of a fundamentalist in the beginning, and then a young scholar named Matthew Block started finding in the text itself, it says that human sources of information were used wherever possible, and they only resorted to revelatory information under their mandate, which they could do to help the humans along, but we really have to earn more information. (0:07:39)

So a gentleman by the name of Matthew Block, who's a friend started finding some of these texts. And I believe at this point, he's got over hundreds and hundreds of texts that were used in the Urantia book itself. So the book has in the in the first two parts of the book are the most dense and the least, what we call sourced, and parts three and four are, and especially part four, the Jesus papers are almost exclusively sourced, while maintaining the basic themes of the Urantia book. (0:08:13)

So, you know, William James, I mean, the people that were source authors were extremely well known people and famous academics 100 years ago. So that part of the book for someone who's interested in studying a text that way should be a goldmine for someone, besides Matthew, who's done great work. (0:08:30)

That's fascinating, because we'll talk about the difference between the sourced and the sourceless. I don't want to say unsourced, because it's there, right? Sourceless material, unknown source material, right? What I want to do now is I brought up the Urantia book with numerous friends, because your introduction to me was of the book was, of course, it fascinates me. And there's a lot of remarkable material in it. (0:09:06)

(skip advertisement part)

We're talking to Sue Oliver, her book, Dr. Sadler and the Urantia book, The Historic Origins of a Spiritual Revelation in the Twentieth Century. A remarkable achievement on Sue's part, I must say. It's a very good book. If you want to understand the Urantia book, like I did, without actually spending the next 14 years reading it, Sue's book is a great place to start. (0:11:46)

And then you can work through this. And we're going to work through it a little bit today. A little later on, we're going to get into some remarkable material about the relationship between human beings and the celestial level. Just extraordinary. And Sue's analysis of it in her book is really eye-opening. But before we go down that path, I've spent many, many years involved with the Gurdjieff Foundation, as many of you know. (0:12:21)

And in the Gurdjieff Foundation, G. I. Gurdjieff wrote a sort of didactic novel called All and Everything, Beelzebub's Tales to his Grandson, which caused the foundation to be called a bunch of demon worshippers, the Christian mentalists, because they saw the word Beelzebub. And that's very far from true. But one of the criticisms of this book is the same as the criticism of the Urantia book. (0:12:59)

The science in it is largely completely not real, as far as we understand science. (0:13:08)

And I'd like to talk about this aspect of the Urantia book, which is an even bigger problem, actually, with the Urantia book. How do you respond to this? First, give us an idea of where the science in it goes kind of fundamentally wrong. And then we'll talk about the fact that these higher levels of being always seem to leave us obstacles. They never allow us to completely embrace anything. They force us to ask questions. (0:13:40)

That's one of my favorite things about the Urantia book, actually. The Urantia book reflects science at the time the text was written. So that was, you know, in the early 20th century. The Saddlers themselves were eugenicists. That was a big deal starting about in the 1880s when people thought, OK, we'll breed better people. And they had a lot of really bad science around that, not to mention the racist and the misogynistic aspects. (0:14:12)

And the Urantia book reflects that, unfortunately. And I think that the book also says very clearly that the science is not going to be correct for very long. So they own that. The authors own that right off the bat. And this has been an issue for the book, really, since its publication. Because in 1955, we had realized after Nazi Germany what eugenics really blossomed into, which was horror. (0:14:41)

So there's no excuse. The science is not correct. But, Whitley, just like you said, there are parts of the Urantia book that are beautiful and enlightening. And I think as humans, these obstacles are put in our way so that we keep growing. Because one of the things about organized religion, which the Urantia book is very much against, is that you become insular and you just believe what your book says. (0:15:11)

And that you need to have a free and open, loving relationship with God that informs all the other relationships. So I think there have been many people over the years that have wanted the Urantia book to update the science or change the science, which they won't do. And we just have to move above it and look at the parts of the book that have value to ourselves and really ignore those parts that are false, which is pretty much all the science in the text. (0:15:39)

Yeah, you know, well, I think that's the right response on the part of those who are shepherding this text. You can't censor it in order to make it look like something it is and was. Because back in those days, I mean, if you look into the history of race in America, for example, or of eugenics in general, you'll find it's so deeply embedded in our past that we can't. Fortunately, the cancel culture can't cancel it. (0:16:23)

You have to cancel people like T.S. Eliot, who is one of the great poets of all time and certainly one of the greatest poets of the 20th century. Ezra Pound, you have to cancel all of these people. (0:16:37)

You might think about canceling Carl Jung, who admitted that his initial embrace of Nazism was a mistake. Okay, so I want to get past that right now and go on into what the book has to offer us that is of value. And before we do that, and before we begin to explore some of the most remarkable material you'll ever hear with Sue about the celestial realms and the human relationship to them, we're going to take a brief break. (0:17:16)

(skip advertisement part)

We're talking to Dr. Sue Oliver, her book, Dr. Sadler and the Urantia Book, the Historic Origin of a Spiritual Revelation in the 20th Century. And now that we've finished apologizing for the book, let's get to the revelation. And I want to concentrate for a while. I don't want to go... I want to start with the nature and unity of God, because the way the book portrays God is so... it's so personal. (0:20:09)

I have read enough of this material to where I began to feel that personal presence much inside me. And I could understand why the book is basically against organized religion, because it places a kind of filter between the individual and God. Now, what does the Urantia Book... how does it conceive of God? Well, it conceives of God as everything and everywhere. And part of our journey as spiritual beings is that God has bestowed a little fragment of himself in our mind called a thought adjuster, which doesn't really speak to us. (0:20:59)

But it urges us, usually in our sleep, to make good decisions to move more towards God. And God lives in a place outside time and space, which shouldn't be surprising with all the things that we're seeing in the sky. (0:21:16)

There's just a lot that we don't know. And that he lives in a paradise, and that we are working our way there as neophytes. And there are many adventures to come. So as we evolve, after we die, you get a new body, a less physical body, and you get to see beings that you haven't been able to see before and see people who have gone before you. (0:21:42)

And you're on a place called the Mansion Worlds, of which there are seven, and you work your way through. Like you're not... you don't wake up in heaven and everything's great. The universe is a giant school. We're all here together, and we're going to all evolve on our own by our decision-making. As we make morally and spiritually fragmented decisions, we grow our soul with our thought adjuster's help. (0:22:06)

And all the way until we get to paradise. So there's a never-ending quality to this. For example, a couple of the non-human intelligence that were involved with indicting the Urantia book to the Saddlers were mortals who had achieved these very high ranks in the universe and were able to come back on this project. I look at the Urantia book as a project from some group of NHI that wanted as an experiment. (0:22:36)

Like, let's give them a book and have a lot of great information in there and see what happens. We are talked about... Earth is an experimental world where a group called the Life Carriers bring down and install life on the planet. And they change certain things in the DNA and kind of see what happens. There are many of these planets throughout the solar system. (0:23:01)

And God is love. That's the essence of the Urantia book. We are all part of something magnificent. And as we move towards paradise, we'll have a lot of challenges. Like you said, there's going to be a lot of roadblocks because they want hearty, good-thinking, spiritual beings, ultimately, that get to do some exciting things. For example, Jesus was the creator of what they call our local universe. (0:23:32)

And he bestowed on six worlds before he came to Earth to teach us how to have a relationship with each other and, most importantly, with God. For a book that was published in 1955 that's full of NHI, it still has some pretty unique ideas about what our universe is really about. You mentioned the thought adjuster and sleep. And it occurred to me earlier while we were talking that the Urantia book comes out of basically a sleep experience, a long-term experience. (0:24:16)

And it was a cases work, of course. And the book advocates for noticing our sleep states and what's happening in them. Now, tell us about how we receive a thought adjustment in our sleep, if you could. You actually are gifted a thought adjuster when you make your first moral decision as a child. So, thought adjusters volunteer. And ultimately, we are, as spiritual beings, we'll fuse with that piece of God at some point during our universe career. (0:25:00)

So, you're bestowed a thought adjuster. (0:25:02)

It's not a voice. I think it's a feeling people have talked about. They can feel the urging of them to make a decision. Our brains go through many different ways of thinking. So, when you're asleep and your brain is quiet, that's when the thought adjuster can do its work with you in your mind. And I honestly have no idea exactly how that works, except that that's what we're told in the book. (0:25:27)

Is that they work with you in your sleep, and they're very excited when you make good moral decisions. Because that means they're closer to being able to fuse with you, which is their goal. You know, good moral decisions are so important. I mean, I live in this UFO community where it's full of people who make money by telling lies. I've seen some of them come and go, and I know that there are some still out there. (0:25:59)

And I think to myself, where am I with this? I do not lie, as you know, we have discussed extensively. I'm not sure whether or not I'm speaking accurately about my experiences, but I am trying to my best, certainly. Now, how do I know of people who are not trying? I knew of a man who made claims about living on Mars for years, and he eventually admitted that this was all false. (0:26:32)

I was sure it was false when he was saying it. And I know other people in the field who are now, I would say, I'm certain are lying. What is my moral position here, Sue? Because you know some of these people, too. Do we speak out, or are we silent? That's a really good question. I think... Yes, it sure is. That's an excellent question. (0:27:00)

I think that we have to look at the landscape that we're in, and look at what, if we want to speak out, when and why, and how would that be best done? I mean, you have a very important position in this world, Whitley, so people will listen to you. But at the same time, you know, you have to weigh whether you want to get into that or not. (0:27:26)

We need to make a stand, but I guess we have to do it in a way that's led by wisdom. And for me, that would be being a meditator for 20 plus years and asking those questions when I'm meditating and see what comes up. That's how I would do it. I think you, knowing what you know, and having the incredible capacity of seeing this for so long and knowing these people, I guess it's where you want to be in this. (0:27:59)

Do you want to be the person that's calling them out? Is that the best use of you at this time, or is it better to just wait until they bury themselves? You know, I don't know. That's what I've been doing, and I see that they bury themselves on a regular basis, thank God. Yes. Contacting the desert is a perfect example. Years ago, it was full of people who were just telling stories. (0:28:28)

And their audiences were packed because the audience more or less knew that, and they found it entertaining. (0:28:35)

Because most of the people had no idea what this was all about. They were sort of curious about flying saucers, and that is as far as it went. And they went to these things for fun. Right. Now it's getting more serious, because we realize that NHI is real and here. And in my case, because of my implant, also here. Right. So, you know, I'm very much connected with it. (0:29:06)

And, you know, this is an extremely powerful presence that does not suffer fools gladly and does not care for lies at all. I see these people doing this, and I see people in the government whom I know who, because of their duty, they go out and they lie. You are required to lie in order to keep secrets. In order to protect classified information, if you have to, you must lie. (0:29:43)

Now, I see you lying in politics, but I mean, that's certainly nothing new. That's what they do. That's the profession. The political profession is how skilled a liar are you. The more skilled a liar you are, the farther up you will go. Basically. Yeah. But the messenger said to me that each lie is like a little lead weight on the soul. It's attached to the soul. (0:30:16)

And when you die, you drift downward because of this weight. And you can't rise, you can't ascend. The Urantia book is all about going in the opposite direction. Tell us your idea of the Urantia book's path of ascension. And I know I promised to ask you only easy questions. Well, that's a really good point. Because when you're saying that when people decide that they want something because it's material, why you would lie, right? (0:30:51)

It wouldn't be a spiritual reason. You would lie because you want power or you want money or you want something that you think is going to help. And in the Urantia book's world, every time you lie like that, you're using your mercy credits. And I don't know, it doesn't say how many or if you can ever use them up. But what you're doing is that you're stifling your spiritual growth. (0:31:16)

So let's just say you've been a good human and you really haven't lied much. And when you wake up on the first Mansion World, ultimately you'll end up on Mansion World 5 because you've progressed that far, right? You didn't lie and so you don't have to stay on 1. I think 1 is more of a kindergarten world where you haven't really shown moral capacity. (0:31:43)

And so you're going to be on Mansion World 1 until you learn not to be that way. And then you'll progress up until you go through Mansion World 7. I mean, obviously they are using that as an illustration. I don't know that it's exactly that, but that's how they describe it. We have to weigh things in our own minds. Like you're saying, these people that are lying, you can disappear yourself, I think, by doing that spiritually. (0:32:12)

If you do that long enough, I don't know how you come back from that. (0:32:16)

And God is very forgiving, and I'm sure if you decide at some point that you want to turn your life around, that's possible. But I think it's better to just be a good and loving human being as much as possible so you don't end up there. But you have to be aware. I mean, are these people aware of why they're doing what they're doing? (0:32:36)

I don't know. Well, if they're not aware of it, then they're getting away with it. But I think that they mostly are aware of it, especially in the political world. One of the reasons I didn't go into politics, I come from a family with lots of politics in it. I could have gone into politics, but I didn't because I don't think you can do it without lying. (0:32:59)

You know, my father was not directly involved in politics. But he had a lot of friends who were, and in pretty high places in politics, too. And he used to say, Whitley, the one thing you must never do in life is lie. Never lie. And he drilled that into me. And then he and his friends wanted me to run for Congress when I was a young man, and instead I moved to New York. Because I didn't want to. (0:33:30)

Then he got angry. I wouldn't say angry, disappointed. But when you... the Urantia book is a blueprint for ascension, essentially. And when... how do you repair the past in the Urantia book, in the sense of you've told a lie that has hurt somebody. And how do you repair that? How do you find a way to lighten your soul yet again from that mistake? (0:34:09)

Or are you going to be forgiven because God understands you? You realize it was a mistake. Well, I think that if God understands that you're sincere, it's really about sincerity. If God sees that you want to change your life and move forward in a positive direction, and I think you have to acknowledge that. I think it's good for people to acknowledge if they've done things that are wrong. (0:34:37)

I think that's a cleaning... a cleansing... pardon me... a way to cleanse yourself and to start making better decisions. I think then you would be on the path. How you repair all the damage that you did before, I'm not really sure. But starting out on the right foot and deciding that you want to change your life and asking for forgiveness and forgiving other people, I think that's also very powerful. (0:35:04)

You know, frequently people don't want to forgive other people because it's like letting them off the hook. But what you're really doing is letting yourself off the hook because you're not going to harbor those negative feelings anymore towards the person. So I think you... I mean, it seems to me from reading the Urantia book that, you know, that love that God has is always there. (0:35:27)

We just have to decide that we want to go that direction and survive as a being, and then we can. (0:35:34)

You know, Diane Hennessy Powell and Kai Dickens in the podcast, The Telepathy Tapes, they show how the unvoiced people can have telepathy. And the young people who are telepathic, some older ones too actually, they're mostly autistic and telepathic, say that you can't do this successfully unless you are kind and you rely. In other words, if you've got things to hide, you're going to not be able to be telepathic. (0:36:20)

I've had numerous telepathic experiences. I wish I could say that I was telepathic and I could read your mind or influence you and cause you to take off your glasses or something, but I can't do it. I don't want to pretend I'm telepathic, but I am very sensitive to telepathy when it comes in my direction. Every once in a while when I'm tired, it will come up spontaneously, but I can't control it. (0:36:52)

Anyway, one thing I do know about it is you're very naked in that state. You're naked in a way that you were not naked. Our inner life is hidden and secret, but not to a telepath. And the telepathic kids go right for you, especially the teenagers. They go right for the places in you that you don't want them to go, because that's what's interesting to teenagers, right? (0:37:19)

So I've had that happen a number of times and it's very unsettling. I finally got used to it. How do we live in such a way, Sue, using the book, that we can become free in the same way that these angelic young people are free? And why don't you try to contextualize this through the material about seraphim and how they work in our lives and what they are? (0:37:52)

Well, from the Urantia book's standpoint, there are hundreds and hundreds, thousands of beings here all the time. That they are invisible to us and that they are doing all kinds of things that we can't see. Angels being one, where they describe that the people who have seen angels describe them as having wings and the Urantia book describes those as friction shields. And then we have the midway creatures, which were the beings closest to us that live here, which kind of sounds like greys to me from the description. (0:38:33)

One's name was ABC and there were those beings the Saddlers were quite familiar with. They weren't really clear that they didn't really see them, but they kind of sounded like sometimes they did see them. When you're saying you're having a conversation with one of these midway creatures, I don't know if that was telepathic or what that was. But I think the Urantia book helped you understand that there is a lot of support here for us as we grow onward, but it's up to us at this point to make the right decisions to get there. (0:39:16)

So, in other words, there's these life carrier beings that implant life. It appears that maybe they come and they can adjust things genetically or whatever as we go along. (0:39:29)

But the bottom line is really, like you said, there's roadblocks that we have to overcome through moral, loving decisions to go onward. So there's no stopping us if we want to be on that path. It sounds like there is a lot of forgiveness out there, which is good for all of us. Thank God. Yes, thank God. Obviously, my belief is that there are beings that have been here probably before we were. There may be other beings that visit now that are from other places. (0:40:07)

I mean, I don't know. It just seems like there's a lot of different ones out here and that people are seeing them. And I don't know if that's more now or if that just feels that way to me. I mean, I'm fairly new to this part. I wrote my book before I knew anything about the phenomenon or NHI. And then when I started learning about it, I'm like, Sadler is a classic case of someone who, you know, he saw craft, he describes it, and he had sustained contact with beings for decades, which is pretty, is unusual as far as my studies so far, to come up with something like the Urantia book. (0:40:43)

So, my takeaways from the Urantia book is I live in a very friendly universe. I'm on a planet that has a lot of strife and people who haven't matured as much as they could, that the beings are well aware of that because we're an experimental planet and they're trying to help us straighten up and fly right towards God. Yeah, I think that there is a lot of that here. I want to get into the functionality a little bit of what's going on. We've talked about the thought adjusters, and they dwell within us and sort of, they don't force us to do anything, but they try to point us in the right direction. (0:41:33)

So, it could be, I think you could think about it as what we used to call and should still think of as conscience, in a way that's conscious. Now, the Seraphim are mediators between higher beings and us. And I'm very interested in that because, of course, I write and engage with someone all the time. I've written Afterlife Revolution, A New World, Jesus, A New Vision, Them, and The Fourth Mind, in direct communication with this, and sometimes physical. (0:42:18)

The New World was written almost exclusively where in a very isolated situation, I sat in a living room, and these physical presences that I could detect and I could hear and see if I, in glimpses at least, were with me telepathically. It wasn't channeling of any kind. It was much more like working with an editor would be. In other words, it was very, very interrogative and exploratory intellectually. (0:43:01)

There's never, and none of those books are channeled at all. You talked about groups worked on it. How did they work? Did they tell you, or do they tell us anywhere? I haven't seen this in the Urania book yet. (0:43:19)

How they functioned, in other words, were they channeling, or how were they doing it? How was it happening? Well, a couple of different ways. There was a group called the Contact Commission that was Lena and Bill Sadler and the Kelloggs, which was Lena's sister who was married to another Kellogg, and a woman who they later adopted as their daughter named Christy. They were the only ones that were in contact with these beings. The Forum, who were the group of Sadler's patients and friends that would ask questions that the Contact Commission would give to the celestials, to the beings, and then get answered. (0:44:03)

They don't really... some papers just arrived finished. The whole of 800 pages of the Jesus Papers, the Part 4 of the book, arrived complete and done is how Sadler reported it. And the other Parts 1, 2, and 3 were the result of questions and answers that the Forum would ask. Sadler talks about having 180 questions and having a conversation with the sleeping subject, and he was going to bring up that he had questions, and the being told him, well, I have answers to 150-something questions out of the 180 that you have in your mind, or in your pieces of paper. (0:44:49)

So, there was clearly telepathy going on there. I suspect that it was mainly telepathic, and the sleeping subject was doing some kind of channeling automatic writing because a lot of those papers came through... it was a man, came through this person who they never divulged who it was. Does that answer your question? Well, it certainly takes us down that path toward an answer, yeah. I don't think that there are going to be any final answers in this show any more than there are in the book or in the experience of life itself. (0:45:25)

But what I'm hoping to do is to shed light here and to suggest that there is a whole level of spiritual exploration here that's possible, and that we can do... the book offers that. However, the vision of this hierarchy is almost bureaucratic in nature. In other words, there's something very much so. And I don't think too many people have a life experience like that. (0:46:07)

My life experience of the higher realm is extremely personal and immediate, and I don't feel like I'm moving through hierarchies at all.

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We're talking to Sue Oliver's book, Dr. Sadler and the Urantia Book, The Historic Origins of a Spiritual Revelation in the Twentieth Century. So, let's go back to that question of how does this hierarchy impact us? I don't feel any sense of hierarchy in my spiritual life, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. What's your impression of how do we, what stance do we take to make this work for us? (0:51:02)

Yes, I'm going to answer that in one minute. I just want to say one other thing. Sadler also described frequently that he would get picturizations, is what he called them, in his mind, which I think is that's another way that the thought adjusters can give us an image of something that they want us to pay attention to, which could be a dream or something in our sleep. (0:51:25)

I don't, whatever a picturization is, I'm not sure we each can decide what that is. (0:51:31)

I want to thank you all. As soon as you hear the word, you know. I know exactly what it is, but I can't describe it. So, and as far as the hierarchy, I suspect that the authors of the Urantia book used that as the best way for them to explain things to us, that we would understand that. And as far as here, when you say you don't feel that, I think that's probably purposeful, because we're on this planet with the beings that are here with us, and maybe some visiting, but they want kind of, well, it doesn't really feel like a level field, but they want that to encompass something that it doesn't feel like a hierarchy. (0:52:12)

They are explaining our ascension as spiritual beings in a hierarchical fashion, just for us to grasp it. That's the way I feel about it. I don't know that that's exactly, it probably isn't that way. Based upon what I've learned from, you know, all the beings and the craft that are seen here, it's definitely not what I would have pictured from reading the Urantia book. It's way more complicated. (0:52:38)

As you said, the first night I met you, it's complicated, and it is complicated. So there's always one. It's extremely puzzling on so many levels, but the Urantia book for me gave me a foundation of understanding when I was 17 that makes sense to me, and I find it illuminating and enlightening. That I'm living in a place that's a big school and is going to support me through some hard knocks and difficulties, but ultimately I'm going to get to a better and better place. (0:53:15)

Well, let's hope, certainly. You know, my wife reached a state of enlightenment toward the end of her life, I'm pretty sure. And although she would have scoffed at the idea of, if I'd said you're becoming an enlightened being, I would have found out that enlightened beings don't like to be told that they're enlightened beings, at least that would have happened. So I never went down that path, but I did ask her things about this. I asked her, what enlightenment, how do you become enlightened? And she said simply, enlightenment is what happens when there's nothing left of us but love. (0:53:56)

And that resonates a lot with much of the book, it really does. Can you talk a little bit about what the book says about this energy that we call love? The energy that we call love is something that is really the essence of the universe and the essence of our universal father, so to speak. I don't think it's a male, I just think that's the way it's always been described. And when it comes, it's like Federico Fagan said when he had his experience that he just felt the most incredible love he's ever felt. And he knew from that point on, that was it. (0:54:38)

And I think that that's what all of us are ultimately going to experience is that. I mean, we all feel love, I hope, in a way that it's transformational. And I think that's what it means is that as we go down our earthly path and we love and are loved and keep giving out more, I always think that no matter how much love I give out, God would always replenish that. (0:55:07)

You can never ever use that up. And I think that if we could all proceed forward with that understanding, we would change this planet rather drastically and care about each other and treat each other as brothers and sisters, which is exactly what we are, along with all the other things that are here. (0:55:25)

Well, you know, Sue lives in the part of the country where some terrible storms have unfolded. And she had that experience of suddenly needing community. We have to, and this is happening as this being recorded all over the United States, the southern, the southwest is drying up. And there are ferocious storms sweeping across the Midwest, the south and the northeast again and again and again, a much more violent weather system than anything we have ever had. (0:56:12)

But I can remember vividly when spring was a time to look forward to, the blossoming of the flowers, the greening of the trees, the gentle rains and the dark buds, Shakespeare called them, but now it's the darling tornadoes of May. And that's a very different situation. And the darling epical floods, where they always say it's a thousand year flood. And then two years later, it happens again. So we're going to need community. (0:56:51)

We are. How does the book speak about that level of community? Well, I think the book doesn't, you know, having lived through Helene, which came here on September 27th, and completely devastated the Asheville area, it'll take years for us to recover. And I'm fortunate that I live on a mountain with about eight other families, and we all came together. We didn't have power for 13 days. And we didn't have water until that time. And we're trying to help other people, we're going out to help other people. I mean, there were 700 bridges down and 900 roads for, I mean, it was a disaster. (0:57:32)

And through that difficult experience, we drew very close to our neighbors, and those relationships will maintain that. And I think, I guess the most important thing is to really try to understand each other as brothers and sisters. I mean, we disagree, you know, just in politics, we need a good liberal party and a conservative party that work together. And that's not what we're seeing now, because people are, they're into hate instead of love. And that's what happens. We need to get back to that point where we can, you know, respect each other. And I understand humans are difficult, and it gets to the point where it does, you know, violence erupts. (0:58:16)

But we have to grow through this. We have to get to the point where we understand who we really are, as brothers and sisters and come at it from that point. We can have disagreements, but we shouldn't get, have to get, hopefully, we could get away from having that go to violence. And if love is the dominating thought, and you're striving to make good moral decisions, we should be able to build that community a lot easier than we are right now, which is, it's very distressing. I mean, along with the climate, and along with, you know, things happening worldwide, there's a lot of, and NHI, there's a lot of threats out there right now that we have to contend with. (0:59:00)

A lot of threats, and then some of them can get very personal very quickly. And I often think to myself, with this distempered climate, how long is it going to be before we end up with food shortages? And if we do, then what happens to human community? Because people get absolutely desperate when they need to eat, when they're hungry and can't find food. (0:59:27)

And I've not experienced that, thank God. But I have certainly studied it extensively, because I studied the fall of the British Empire in history in college. (0:59:41)

And I realized that one of the most important single moments in that collapse came when Churchill elected not to allow ships full of grain, which were in the harbors around India at the time, to offload that grain to take it to Bengal, which was the center of the famine. Prior to the war, the Congress Party was a minor factor in Indian politics. People were comfortable with Siraj and for the most part. But then the Bengalis, who were the center of Congress, were left to wander the streets, the roads. (1:00:34)

And there was this heartbreaking movie just after that called Path of Panjali. And they hated Siraj after that. And the community became so stressed that they began to fight each other. Yeah. We could have that happen soon. Yes, we could. We do. Where is the spiritual energy? How do we get spiritual energy from the Urantia book? Because we're in need. I don't think we get... I think the Urantia book is offering us a framework of what our lives can be. If things get to the point where you just described where we're all trying to survive, it's going to get really ugly. (1:01:25)

But we have to hold in our minds. I mean, for me, it's meditation to try to keep me balanced. But if I was starving, I don't even want to think about what I would be willing to do to eat. I mean, it's a horrible place to try to put yourself. I think that if we understand that we are children of God and brothers and sisters, and that ultimately, no matter what happens on this planet, as far as famine and fighting and all of those kind of things, that we are going to die and wake up in a place where we can keep going, no matter where that is, if you end up on Mansion World 1 or 7. That gives me hope, because I know that this is a temporary situation. And the Urantia book describes that how fortunate we are to be born, excuse me, on this planet of difficulty, because we're going to grow more than people who are on planets where things are smoother. We are going to have more opportunity to grow here than a lot of other beings on other planets. That's a consolation on some level. (1:02:36)

Yeah, I think it's very true. And I think that's why most of us are here. We're here because the bodies are thick and dense, and deeply embedded in time, which means we cannot see the future. And we are very independent of one another, because it's a voiced species, not telepathic. So, each of us is isolated inside themselves. And it's a very pure and extraordinary thing. And you know, there's lots of paths. The Gurdjieff work offers a path. Catholicism offers a path. Protestantism, different paths. The Urantia book offers a path. Theosophy offers a path. (1:03:26)

What is the relationship between Theosophy and the Urantia ideas? You've thought about that, I'm sure. (1:03:35)

I've thought about it. I'm not an expert on Theosophy, but there are a lot of people who read the Urantia book who are very in tune with Theosophy as well. I think that the Urantia book differs from a lot of other texts, and I don't know the construction of the Theosophy readership group. The Urantia book has groups of readers that have study groups that read the book, read a paper an evening and discuss it. And there is... I've been to study groups for years. (1:04:14)

I moved away from that when I got a little more critical and when I started meditating more and just got a little bit more independent, I guess, relying more on my relationship with God through meditation and not relying so much on the text. And I think both Theosophy and the Urantia book ask you to really critically think some things through, which I admire. I think that's really important. (1:04:45)

Yes. As wonderful as many of the religions in the world are, I just see that you can get... they can be very enlightening, and at the same time, they can hold you back if you rely too heavily on... I don't want to get myself in trouble here, but I think our relationship with God needs to be informed by meditation and loving each other, and not listening so much to other people telling us how to think. That's how I'm going to say it. (1:05:21)

Well, that's a good place for us to conclude our exploration of the book, I think. No one needs to tell us how to think. We can go down that path by ourselves, and what the book does is it doesn't tell you how to think. It tells you how to explore and discover your own questions. It's very structured, and it creates a very complex, almost bureaucratic hierarchy, but it never tells you to believe that. It tells you to find your own energetic journey, which is exactly what Suzanne did. (1:06:08)

Anyway, well, we're all trying. That's the wonderful thing. If we could do it, what would be the point? The point is to try. I don't look forward to necessarily being outside of the stream of time, because then you can't change. This is an incredibly precious place we're in. We have here the chance to change. We do. The book offers energy on many different levels. (1:06:51)

I am not a follower of it, but I do think it has... I mean, I don't think it's really a follower of it. It's not like the Bible. Right. Well, there are people that adhere quite strictly to the tenets in the text, and I'm starting to write articles for some of the Urantia communities to try to bring them up to speed. As far as what's going on with the phenomenon, because I think it's really important to keep growing and to keep understanding what is going on here. (1:07:16)

Because the Urantia book also describes that we're a planet under quarantine, which I won't go into why that happened right now, and that there isn't any communication, but that's clearly not correct. (1:07:29)

You are a leading example of this. Yeah, I am. I am, truly. But there was no communication of this kind when the book was being written. It was just getting started in the early 50s. So they weren't wrong about that. As far as the planet being quarantined, something's off for the simple reason that there are believed to be something like 21 sextillion planets in this universe. (1:08:03)

Now, why in the world do we have something like the Fermi paradox? You know, where is everybody? Because it's a good question here on Earth. Where is everybody? But if you go out to Sedona, and you go to one of those groups that does sky watches at night, you will find that zillions of objects are there that can't be explained. I was in Sedona a few weeks ago, in the backyard of a friend who has a very light-sensitive area. (1:08:54)

There's not a lot of light clearing out of Sedona. And it's going to be a dark sky city soon, and it almost is already. So there's loads of stars in the sky, and I see something going along, and I think, oh, it looks like a satellite. Maybe not, and I thought, if you're not a satellite, give me a flash. And nothing happened, and it went off, and I thought, well, either it wasn't a satellite, or they were asleep, or they didn't want to bother. (1:09:22)

But then a few seconds later, I was with the owner of the house. We saw another object, and I said to him, look at that, it's a funny shape. And he said, yeah, that looks like one of them, and at that moment, gave a big flash. And they're everywhere now. That was just a casual, you know, they just happened to be passing, but if we'd gone out 15 minutes earlier or an hour later, probably would have had the same thing happen. (1:09:52)

Well, Lynn Leslie is the one to look for in Sedona, by the way, folks. She takes groups out all the time, and she rarely has a missed night, unless it's cloudy. Sue, thank you so much for being with us on Dreamland. Whitley, thank you. It's been a real pleasure. Well, it has. Look forward to seeing you again, and come out to California again. (1:10:18)

Yes, will do. Will do. Thank you so much. We have a mutual friend who bought a beautiful big house recently, and Sue's got to... he has to have some excuse to come out here. And let's get Leslie Kane to come too at the same time. I agree. Dr. Sadler in the Urantia book, The Historic Origins of a Spiritual Revelation of the 20th Century. Pick it up and explore it. Don't be afraid of it. (1:10:47)

Don't be afraid of the Urantia book. A lot of value there. Thank you very much, as always, folks, for joining me on Dreamland. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening. Dreamland is brought to you by Unknown Country and its family of subscribers. (1:11:06)

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