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Gary Lachman : Carl G. Jung を語る

· 94 min read

前置き​

Jeffrey Mishlove 聞き手で、Gary Lachman が語り手。

以下、AI(NotebookLM plus)で整理した。

関連の過去記事​

❑ Gary Lachman : Carl Jung が『赤の書』で描いた導師が Sigmund Freud に酷似 (2023-09-20)

情報源：動画(1:04:27)​

The Esoteric Dimensions of Carl G. Jung with Gary Lachman (4K Reboot)

音声対話 (by AI)​

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/b60cfac3-c76f-44da-b520-5b88c2410440/audio

ブリーフィング文書：ユングの深層探求と秘教的側面

レビュー対象ソース:​

  • 末尾の添付の文字起こし
    • 「ユングの秘教的側面」からの抜粋 (1/2)
    • 「ユングの深層探求」からの抜粋 (2/2)

概要:​

本ブリーフィング文書は、提供された2つのソースに基づき、カール・ユングの人生における秘教的側面と、それが彼の心理学理論、特に深層心理学、集合的無意識、元型、シンクロニシティといった概念にいかに深く関わっているかを詳述する。資料は、ユングの初期の超常現象への関心、フロイトとの決裂、そして彼の人生において最も重要な時期とされる「夜の海の旅（Night Sea Journey）」、そしてその後の学術的な探求における秘教的思考の統合に焦点を当てている。

主要なテーマと重要なアイデア/事実:​

初期の超常現象への関心と家族の影響:

  • ユングの秘教的な関心は、母方の一族からの影響が大きい。彼の母親は交霊術に関心を持ち、トランス状態に入るなど、異常な精神状態を示すことがあった。
  • ユング自身も幼少期に「パーソナリティ・ナンバー・ツー」と呼ぶ別の自己を体験しており、これは18世紀の貴族のような、より強力な存在として現れたという。
    • 「（0:10:38）And again, you know, Jung, he plays, I mean, one of the reasons why I wrote my book about Jung was that he played his sort of occult cards very close to his chest for a great deal of his career.」と述べられているように、ユングはキャリアの初期にはこれらの体験を隠していた。
  • ユングの家庭ではポルターガイスト現象とされる出来事が複数回発生しており、動かないはずの大きな木製テーブルが割れたり、食器棚の中のナイフが真っ二つに割れたりしたという逸話が紹介されている。
    • 「（0:22:35）And inside a cupboard, there was a carving knife that had broken into, you know, discrete pieces.」ユングは後に割れたナイフの破片を著名な超心理学者J.B.ラインに送っている。
  • ユングの医学博士論文「いわゆるオカルト現象の心理学について」は、彼がいとこ（後に明かされた）を被験者として交霊会を研究した報告である。彼はこれらの現象を科学的に研究しようとしたが、自身の関与を公にすることは避けた。

フロイトとの決裂と「夜の海の旅」:​

  • フロイトとユングの決裂は、彼らの超常現象に対する見解の相違が一つの大きな要因であった。有名なエピソードとして、ユングがフロイトを訪問中に本棚でポルターガイスト現象が二度発生し、フロイトは驚愕したが、後に偶然であるとして片付けようとした話が語られている。
    • 「（0:15:36）And then, bang, it happens again. And there's a description where he says Freud was aghast.」
  • フロイト自身はテレパシーなどを信じていたが、精神分析が迷信と関連付けられることを恐れ、公にはこれらの現象を否定した。
    • 「（0:16:39）And Freud even says that he got a lot of, you know, letters, he got requests to write for some sort of spiritualists or, you know, paranormal journals at the time. And he turned down these requests because he didn't want psychoanalysis being associated with it.」
  • ユングは精神分析の後継者と目されていたが、主著『変容の象徴』でフロイトのリビドー説（特に近親相姦の概念）に異議を唱えたことで決裂は決定的なものとなった。ユングにとって近親相姦のモチーフは文字通りの性的な欲望ではなく、無意識への回帰、根源への回帰を意味する元型的なモチーフであった。
  • フロイトおよび当時の精神分析コミュニティからの拒絶は、ユングにとって大きな精神的トラウマとなり、深刻な神経衰弱や精神病エピソードを引き起こした。彼はこの時期、拳銃を枕元に置いて寝るほどであったという。
    • 「（0:30:16）He was a renegade and all that. And so he was, you know, black sheep, persona non grata. And he plunged into this madness.」
  • この危機的な状況下で、ユングは狂気と戦うことを止め、無意識の深淵へと「夜の海の旅」と呼ばれる自己探求に没入した。
    • 「（0:30:48）And his descent in the unconscious, or what he calls his night sea journey, started when he decided, well, okay, I'm not going to fight it off anymore. Let's see what happens when I let go.」

「赤の書（Red Book）」と自己探求の成果:​

  • 「夜の海の旅」におけるユングの体験は、彼の『赤の書』に詳細に記録されている。この本はユングの死後長い間未公開であったため、この期間の彼の体験は『赤の書』の出版（約10年前に出版）までほとんど知られていなかった。
    • 「（0:30:48）And that's when he, you know, plunged into the world of the archetypes and collective unconscious and started to produce what we know as the Red Book. And I guess the Red Book, which was only published about 10 years ago, is a complete documentation of what he went through. This episode in his life was almost entirely unknown until the publication of the Red Book.」
  • 『赤の書』には、無意識の深淵でのビジョン、ファンタジー、そして様々な「存在」との対話が描かれている。特に有名なのは、預言者エリヤとサロメ、そして彼の「内なる導師」となるフィレモンとの出会いである。フィレモンはユングに「自分の思考を自分のものだと思うな。思考は森の動物や植物のようなものだ」と教えたという。
    • 「（0:35:50）And what Philemon told him is that your problem is that you think your thoughts are yours.」
  • ユング自身は『赤の書』のイラストやカリグラフィーについて、自身がアーティストではないと強調したが、資料では彼の作品は紛れもない芸術であると指摘されている。
    • 「（0:33:00）But, you know, all you have to do is look at a few pages of the Red Book, and you see, well, along with everything else you are, Carl, you're obviously an artist, you know, because you have these wonderful watercolors, you know, page after page after page.」
  • ユングは後に展開する彼の心理学理論のすべてが、この自己探求の経験から生まれたと述べている。
    • 「（0:34:02）That's what he said in Memories, Dreams, and Reflection. He said, everything I developed, you know, later on, my whole psychology came from these experiences.」

集合的無意識と元型:​

  • ユングが深層探求で到達した領域は、個人的無意識を超えた集合的無意識（Collective Unconscious）または彼は客観的プシケ（Objective Psyche）と呼んだ次元である。
    • 「（0:36:07）And there's a phrase that I prefer to the collective unconscious. He talks about the objective psyche, which means there are things in our mind that have nothing to do with us personally.」
  • 集合的無意識は個人を超えて人類共通のものであるが、一人一人の心が融合したものではなく、アクセス可能で共有されているが、個人的なものではない現実の次元であると説明されている。
    • 「（0:36:33）And it's not quite what he means. He means something that's available and shared by all of us. But it's objective. It's not about me personally. It's this other dimension of reality that I can enter into through my mind.」
  • この領域は元型（Archetypes）と呼ばれる普遍的なイメージやパターンが存在する場所である。元型は私たちの思考、感情、行動に大きな影響を与える。

シンクロニシティとウヌス・ムンドゥス:​

  • シンクロニシティは、ユングが提唱した最も重要な概念の一つであり、秘教的思考の主要な貢献とされている。

    • 「（0:44:50）I suppose we really need to touch on the theory of synchronicity as well, because when it comes to esoteric culture, that may be Jung's major contribution.」

  • シンクロニシティは「意味のある偶然の一致」と定義され、内的な精神的プロセスと外的な物理的出来事が、因果関係によらず意味によって関連付けられている現象である。

    • 「（0:45:00）He certainly coined a useful term for what we usually think of as meaningful coincidence, where... I mean, the simplest way for me to understand synchronicity, there's something going on in your head and something going out on the outside world, and they're related through meaning.」

  • ユングはシンクロニシティをあらゆる超常現象を説明するための包括的な概念として捉えた。また、彼はこの原理が易や占星術といった占いシステムの背後にあると考えた。

    • 「（0:46:50）Jung also suggested that the principle behind synchronicities was also responsible for the success of divination systems like the I Ching. And I suppose he would extend that to astrology as well.」

  • シンクロニシティの根底にあるのは、すべてが互いにつながっているという「ウヌス・ムンドゥス（Unus Mundus：一つの世界）」の概念である。これはネオプラトニズムやアニマ・ムンディ（世界の魂）といった古代の秘教思想に遡るとされている。「（0:47:07）Yeah, well, I think behind it is this idea of the Unus Mundus, like the one world. So, I mean, in one sense, everything is a symbol of everything else.」世界は解読すべき物語として捉えられ、シンクロニシティはその語りを読み取る方法である。

秘教思想の統合（グノーシス主義と錬金術）:​

  • ユングは自身の深層探求の体験に歴史的な並行関係を見出そうとし、グノーシス主義や錬金術に関心を寄せた。グノーシス主義との関連付けは難しかったが、錬金術は彼の探求に多くの共通点を見出した。

    • 「（0:57:48）He says he was trying to find a historical parallel to what he was doing. He somehow felt that, he somehow felt if he's come across this, there must be examples of it in the past.」

  • 錬金術への関心は、ヴィルヘルムが翻訳した中国の錬金術テキスト『黄金の華の秘密』が、ユングが錬金術について考え始めたのと「同じ瞬間に」届いたというシンクロニシティによって深まった。

    • 「（0:58:13）But then, well, it was the synchronicity itself that took place when he turned his mind towards alchemy. Because he was sent this book, The Secret of the Golden Flower, which Wilhelm had translated as a Chinese alchemical text.」

  • ユングは、錬金術師たちは無意識のプロセスを物理的な物質や操作に投影しており、彼らが「活性想像（Active Imagination）」を行っていたが、それを自覚していなかったと解釈した。

    • 「（0:58:42）And what he fundamentally says is the alchemists were doing what he called active imagination. But they didn't know that's what they were doing.」錬金術の奇妙な言語や象徴は、無意識のプロセスの表現であるとした。

  • この解釈は、実際に物質を扱う「ハード・アルケミー」の実践者から批判を受けた。ユングの解釈は、物質と精神という、ユングが橋を架けようとした境界線の両側にある見解の対立を示している。

    • 「（0:59:17）And people that practice actually hard alchemy, they say, well, no, it has something to do with the real physical stuff. It isn't just a projection and all that. He got a lot of criticism from that.」

心物相互作用と客観的プシケ:​

  • ユングは、心的な側面と物理的な側面の両方を持つ「サイコイド（Psychoid）」なものを提唱し、心と物質の相互作用という難問に取り組んだ。

    • 「（0:55:24）Well, this was something that Jung labored at, too. He talked about something that was psychoid, that had a psychic side to it, but also a physical side.」

  • デカルト以来、心的なものと物理的なものは根本的に異なると考えられてきたが、ユングはシンクロニシティのような現象が、この境界を越える例であると考えた。

    • 「（0:56:11）And so, it's sort of how we conceptualize it may be more of the problem and actually trying to find some way to, you know, some borderline where they both come together. But yeah, I mean, synchronicity would be something where you have a mental or a psychic kind of process that exteriorized, you know, it expressed itself in a outer physical kind of way.」

  • 量子物理学の発展は、物質のより深いレベルを探求するにつれて、それが従来の物理的な概念から離れ、思考に近いものになるという点で、ユングの考えを補強していると示唆されている。

    • 「（0:56:54）And suddenly, it's nothing like anything. You can't even visualize it in any way. ... And it becomes something that's much more like thought.」宇宙は偉大な機構というより、偉大な物語に似ているという視点は、ユングの思想と共鳴する。

現代社会への批判と秘教の復権:​

  • ユングは著書『現代人の魂を求めて』などで、近代社会の合理主義が内面の深淵とのつながりを失わせたことの無味乾燥さを批判した。

    • 「（0:49:18）Well, this is it. I mean, Modern Man, in order to achieve the kind of mastery of, if that's what you want to call it, of the planet that we have, we had to sort of put that other way of being in the world aside.」

  • 科学や合理性は必要であるが、それに加えて内面の世界や元型、無意識といったもう一方の側面を取り戻す必要があるとユングは考えた。

  • ユングは、1960年代のニューエイジ文化や人間の潜在能力運動、オカルトの復興といった潮流の重要な先駆者であり、予見者であったと位置づけられている。

    • 「（0:53:03）So you imply in your book that the great burgeoning of what we might call new age culture in the 1960s, the human potential movement and sort of an occult explosion that you've written about in some of your other earlier books, that Jung was very much a precursor of and an anticipator of that whole development.」彼の著作は、易経やチベット死者の書といった東洋の知恵の紹介にも貢献した。

「活性想像（Active Imagination）」と変容の道:​

  • 活性想像は、無意識との意識的な対話を通じて、内面のファンタジーやイメージと向き合うユングの心理学における重要な実践である。彼はこれを『黄金の華の秘密』の序文で最も明確に説明した。

    • 「（0:53:53）And he also, you know, he helped introduce the variety of different Eastern teachings, the Tibetan Book of the Dead. He wrote about D.T. Suzuki's books on Zen and things like that. And the Secret of the Golden Flower, which is a Chinese alchemical text. And in his introduction to that, that's one of the places where he talks most clearly about his practice of active imagination, where you consciously start up trying to dialogue with the unconscious.」

  • この実践は、無意識のイメージや声が、個人の精神的、感情的、物理的状態、あるいは思考の反映であるというシララーのヒプナゴジア研究から影響を受けている。

    • 「（0:40:28）So that seems to be kind of the royal road, as it were, into this deeper parts of the mind. And you can watch the unconscious at work. And one of the things that Silbera discovered was that the images and the voices, because it's auditory as well, they're self-symbolic.」

結論:​

提供されたソースは、カール・ユングの心理学が、彼の個人的な超常現象の体験と、フロイトとの決裂に続く深遠な自己探求、そして古代から続く秘教思想、特に錬金術との深い関わりから生まれたことを明らかにしている。

彼は集合的無意識、元型、シンクロニシティといった概念を通じて、心と物質の境界を超え、世界を単なる機構ではなく意味に満ちた物語として読み解く視点を提示した。彼の思想はアカデミアではしばしば疎外されたが、大衆文化や代替的な精神探求の世界においては、20世紀後半の精神的な探求の潮流に大きな影響を与えた。ユングは自らを科学者と位置づけようとしたが、彼の業績の根底には、秘教的な体験と探求が不可分に存在していたことが強調されている。

timeline と 関係者

タイムライン​

  • ユングの子供時代:

    • ユングはプロテスタントの牧師である父親の厳格な信仰と、降霊術に関心があり、時にトランス状態に入る神秘的な母親という、対照的な家庭環境で育つ。
    • 母親の側から来る奇妙な出来事や超常現象を経験する（テーブルの破損、ナイフの粉砕など）。
    • 若い頃、自分の中に「人格ナンバーツー」、つまり18世紀の貴族のような、より力強く魅力的な別の自己を意識するようになる。

  • ユングの初期のキャリアと研究:

    • 医学部で博士論文として「いわゆるオカルト現象の心理学」を執筆。これは、彼のいとこである霊媒師の研究に基づいているが、家族との関連性は当初明かされなかった。これは科学的探求心と個人的な経験を切り離そうとするユングの試みを示す。
    • チューリッヒのブルクヘルツリ精神科病院で経験を積む。連想実験などの実証的な心理学研究を行う。

  • フロイトとの関係:

    • フロイトと出会い、心理分析運動の「皇太子」と見なされるようになる。フロイトは、心理分析をユダヤ人以外に広めるためにユングを後継者とすることを目指していた。
    • ユングは当初、フロイトの理論を熱心に擁護し、運動を推進する。
    • ユングとフロイトの間で超常現象に関する議論が起こる。フロイトの書棚でポルターガイスト現象が起き、ユングはこれを説明できない出来事として捉えるが、フロイトは後に偶然だと片付ける。この出来事は両者のアプローチの違いを浮き彫りにする。
    • ユングが著書『変容の象徴』を執筆し、性的な抑圧だけでなく、より広範な元型的プロセスが神経症の根源であると主張する。特にインセストの概念を、リビドーが意識の源泉に回帰する元型的なモチーフとして再解釈する。

  • フロイトとの決別と「深層探求」:

    • 『変容の象徴』の出版は、ユングとフロイトの最終的な決別につながる。ユングは心理分析共同体全体から拒絶され、「追放者」「ペルソナ・ノン・グラータ」となる。
    • この精神的な外傷が引き金となり、ユングは激しい精神的危機、あるいは「精神病エピソード」「精神病発作」に陥る。数ヶ月にわたり「狂気と戦った」と語り、拳銃を枕の下に置いて寝るほどだった。
    • ユングは狂気に抗うことをやめ、無意識の深淵へ身を投じることを決意する。これを彼は「夜の海の航海」と呼ぶ。
    • この時期に、元型や集合的無意識の世界を探求し始め、『赤の書（Red Book）』を執筆・制作する。この書は、彼の内的な体験を詳細に記録した、手書きの書と水彩画で構成される「写本」である。
    • 『赤の書』に記録された体験には、無意識の存在（エリヤ、サロメ、フィレモンなど）との出会い、死者との対話などが含まれる。特にフィレモンは彼の「内なる導師」となり、「思考は自分のものではない」と教える。
    • 『死者への七つの教説』はこの時期の著作であり、超常的な体験、特に死者との対話から生まれたものとされる。ヘルマン・ヘッセらに送付される。
    • この「深層探求」の時期に経験したことから、その後のユング心理学の基礎となる理論（元型、集合的無意識、能動的想像法など）が生まれる。彼は後に『追憶、夢、思索』の中で、自身の全心理学はこれらの体験に由来すると述べている。

  • 第一次世界大戦に関するビジョン:

    • 第一次世界大戦の直前、列車に乗っている際に、ヨーロッパを津波が襲い、破壊されるビジョンを見る。当初は自身の精神的な問題だと考えるが、後にこれは戦争の予兆であると悟り、安心する。

  • 秘教、グノーシス主義、錬金術への探求:

    • 自身の内的な体験に歴史的な類似点を見つけようと、グノーシス主義を研究するが、あまりうまくいかない。
    • 錬金術に興味を向け始めたまさにその時、ヴィルヘルム・ヴィルヘルムから中国の錬金術テキスト『黄金の華の秘密』が送られてくる。これを「シンクロニシティ」と捉える。
    • 錬金術を、無意識のプロセスを物質に投影した「能動的想像法」の歴史的な先駆と見なす。錬金術師の奇妙な言語や象徴は、無意識の働きの表れであると解釈する。
    • 錬金術とヘルメス思想との関連性を探る。ヘルメス思想における惑星を巡る魂の旅は、無意識の深淵への旅と類似していると考える。

  • 第二次世界大戦の予測と集団心理:

    • 1933年頃、ドイツ人の患者の夢にドイツの軍神ヴォータンのイメージが現れていることに気づき、第二次世界大戦を予測するエッセイを発表する。
    • ナチス・ドイツの台頭を、無意識に抑圧されていた古代の元型であるヴォータンが集団魂に噴出した結果と解釈する。ヒトラーはその元型の声であり、乗り物であると見なす。
    • ナチス関連の心理学雑誌に関わったことで批判されるが、ユングはユダヤ人心理学者の論文を発表させるためであったと主張する。

  • ウルフガング・パウリとの協働とシンクロニシティ:

    • ノーベル賞受賞物理学者ウルフガング・パウリと協働し、心と物質の相互作用という哲学的問題を探求する。パウリは自身の夢を用いてこの探求を行う。
    • シンクロニシティ（意味のある偶然の一致）の概念を提唱し、明確な定義を与える。これは、内的な精神的プロセスと外的な物理的出来事が意味によって関連付けられる現象であるとする。
    • シンクロニシティの原理が、易や占星術のような占術システムの基盤にあると考える。これらは「一つの世界（Unus Mundus）」の考え方、すなわち全てが繋がっているという観念に基づいていると説明する。
    • シンクロニシティを、超常現象全般を説明するための包括的な概念として捉えようとする。パウリ自身の周囲でも「パウリ効果」として知られるシンクロニシティが頻繁に起きていたとされる。
    • シンクロニシティは、物質の深層に分け入るとそれが思考のようになるという量子物理学の示唆と関連付けて考察される。

  • 晩年の思想と影響:

    • 著書『現代人の魂を求める』で、現代社会の「無菌性」と人々が内面の深淵から切り離されていることを批判する。合理主義的な近代人が、内なる力をマスターしようとする傲慢さについて論じる。
    • 著書『アイオーン』で、分点歳差運動の概念を心理学に応用し、文明の時代の発展を元型の変遷と関連付けて説明する。
    • 占星術に関心を持ち、患者のホロスコープを作成したり、作成させたりする。占星術を、人の性格と星の位置の間に見られるシンクロニシティ現象と見なす。
    • UFO現象を、冷戦による分裂を修復しようとする集合的無意識による「全体性」のイメージの投影と解釈する。
    • 1960年代以降のニューエイジ文化、ヒューマン・ポテンシャル運動、オカルトの復興の先駆者であり、多くの東洋の教え（『チベット死者の書』、禅、中国錬金術など）を紹介する。
    • 学術界では疎外されることもあったが、ポピュラーカルチャー、特にカウンターカルチャーに大きな影響を与える。ビートルズが彼のファンであったことも言及される。

登場人物​

  • カール・ユング (Carl Jung): スイスの精神科医、心理学者。フロイトの初期の弟子であり、「心理分析運動の皇太子」と見なされていた。後にフロイトと決別し、独自の分析心理学を確立する。元型、集合的無意識、シンクロニシティなどの概念を提唱した。神秘主義、オカルト、秘教的伝統に深い関心を持ち、その探求が彼の理論形成に大きな影響を与えた。激しい精神的危機（「深層探求」）を経験し、『赤の書』にその内的な旅を記録した。
  • ジークムント・フロイト (Sigmund Freud): オーストリアの神経学者、精神分析の創始者。無意識の重要性を強調した。ユングの師であり、共同研究者であったが、ユングの思想の方向性の違いから後に決別する。ユングの超常現象への関心に対して公式には懐疑的な姿勢を取ったが、非公式には自身も超常現象を信じていたと示唆される。
  • ユングの母親: ユングの人生における重要な人物。降霊術やスピリチュアリズムに関心を持ち、時にトランス状態に入り、別の人格を発現させた。ユングの神秘的な体験やオカルトへの関心の源流となった人物。
  • ユングの父親: プロテスタントの牧師。信仰に対して厳格で、形骸化しているように見えた。ユングが宗教的な問いについて話し合うことを拒否し、ユングは父親から精神的に距離を置くことになる。
  • ヘルベルト・ズィルベラー (Herbert Silberer): オーストリアの心理学者、神秘主義研究家。フロイトの弟子の一人だったが、後にフロイトに拒絶されて自殺した。ユングより早く錬金術と心理学の関係について論じ、ユングが読んだハイプナゴジア（入眠時幻覚）に関する論文も書いている。
  • ヴィクトル・タウスク (Victor Tausk): オーストリアの心理学者。フロイトの弟子の一人だったが、フロイトとの関係が悪化し、後に自殺した。
  • ヴィルヘルム・ライヒ (Wilhelm Reich): オーストリアの心理分析家。フロイトの弟子の一人だったが、フロイトによって追放され、精神的な危機を経験した。
  • ヘルマン・ヘッセ (Hermann Hesse): ドイツの作家。ユングと交流があり、『死者への七つの教説』の写しを送付された一人。
  • フィレモン (Philemon): ユングの「深層探求」の時期に現れた、有翼で髭を生やした存在。ユングが「内なる導師」と呼んだ人物であり、「思考は自分の所有物ではない」と教えたとされる。ユングの能動的想像法や集合的無意識の概念形成に影響を与えた。
  • エリヤ (Elijah) / サロメ (Salome): ユングが「深層探求」の時期に無意識の世界で出会ったとされる存在。
  • ウィリアム・ジェームズ (William James): アメリカの哲学者、心理学者。プラグマティズムの提唱者の一人。「根本的経験論」の概念を提唱し、意識や超常現象に関心を持っていた。ユングやエルンスト・レーンベルクは彼の考え方に類似点を見出している。
  • アルダス・ハクスリー (Aldous Huxley): イギリスの作家。意識の変容に関心を持ち、「マインド・アット・ラージ」という言葉を用いた。
  • エマヌエル・スウェーデンボルグ (Emanuel Swedenborg): スウェーデンの科学者、神秘主義者。18世紀の人物で、ユングやフロイトより早く自身の夢の日記を記録し、スピリチュアルな領域への旅を経験した。彼の夢の解釈は、ユングらの仕事の先駆と見なされる。
  • ルドルフ・シュタイナー (Rudolf Steiner): オーストリアの神秘主義者、教育者、人智学の創始者。ユングと同時代にスイスに滞在していた。ユングはシュタイナーの著作を読んで彼を「精神病院に属する人物」と酷評し、関わりを避けた。シュタイナーは無意識の概念を好まず、意識的な探求を重視した。
  • ヘンリ・コルバン (Henri Corbin): フランスの哲学者、イスラーム神秘主義研究者。ユングを知っており、スイスで開催されたエリノス会議に参加した。入眠時幻覚状態の探求の重要性を指摘した。
  • ヴォータン (Wotan): ドイツ神話の軍神、主神。ユングは、1930年代のドイツ人の夢に現れたこの元型が、ナチス・ドイツの台頭と第二次世界大戦を引き起こした集団心理の根源であると解釈した。
  • フリードリヒ・ニーチェ (Friedrich Nietzsche): ドイツの哲学者。ユングの思想、特に集団心理や「金髪の獣」といった概念と関連付けられる。ニーチェの思想はナチスのイデオロギーに利用されたが、ユングはニーチェ同様に自身の思想が曲解されたと見なした。
  • ウルフガング・パウリ (Wolfgang Pauli): オーストリアの理論物理学者。ノーベル物理学賞受賞者。ユングと協働し、シンクロニシティに関する著作を共著した。自身の周囲で頻繁に奇妙な出来事（パウリ効果）が起きることで知られていた。心と物質の相互作用に関心を持ち、自身の夢を探求に用いた。
  • リヒャルト・ヴィルヘルム (Richard Wilhelm): ドイツの宣教師、東洋学者。『易経』や『黄金の華の秘密』など中国古典の翻訳者。ユングに『黄金の華の秘密』を送付し、ユングが錬金術に関心を向けるきっかけを作った。彼の『易経』翻訳にはユングの序文が付けられ、大きな影響力を持った。
  • D.T. スズキ (D.T. Suzuki): 日本の仏教学者、禅研究者。ユングは彼の著作に序文を書き、東洋思想の紹介に貢献した。
  • エルンスト・レーンベルク (Henri Ellenberger): フランスの心理学者、精神医学史家。著書『無意識の発見』は、ユングやフロイト以前の無意識の探求の歴史を扱っている。
  • フランツ・アントン・メスメル (Franz Anton Mesmer): ドイツの医師。動物磁気説を唱え、メスメリズム（催眠術の源流の一つ）を実践した。ユングやフロイトが催眠術に興味を持つ先駆的な存在。
  • J.B. ライン (J.B. Rhine): アメリカの植物学者、超心理学者。デューク大学で超心理学の研究を行った。ユングは自身が経験したナイフが粉砕された出来事の証拠をラインに送付したとされる。
  • レネ・デカルト (René Descartes): フランスの哲学者、数学者。心身二元論を提唱し、心と物質を明確に区別した。ユングやパウリは、このデカルト的な心と物質の分離を乗り越えることの難しさについて論じている。

これらの要素が組み合わさり、ユングの複雑で多層的な思想と人生が形成されていることが、提供されたソースから読み取れます。

文字起こし

(part 1of2)

(Jeffrey Mishlove が聞き手。Gary Lachman が語り手)

Hello and welcome. (0:01:45)

I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today, we'll be exploring the esoteric dimensions in the life and psychological theories of the great Swiss psychiatrist, Carl Jung. With me today is Gary Lockman. Gary is the author of over 20 books on the intersection of esoteric culture and the Western intellectual tradition. These include biographies of Madame Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner, P.D. Uspensky, Emanuel Swedenborg, Aleister Crowley, and many more. (0:02:17)

Among his books is Jung the Mystic, the Esoteric Dimensions of Carl Jung's Life and Teachings. Now, we'll switch over to the internet video. Welcome, Gary. It's a pleasure to be with you. Once again, it's a pleasure to be here, Jeffrey. We're going to be talking about really one of the most fascinating characters. I have had guests on my program who say that Carl Jung may be the most brilliant thinker of the 20th century. (0:02:49)

Well, I'm sure he wouldn't argue with them that much. No, he's certainly an important one for me. That's true. There are a number of people who would say that. No, I thought absolutely. Freud wouldn't have been one of them, but you know. Well, it's interesting because I think Freud and Jung are both contenders for, I would say, being in the top half dozen important thinkers of the 20th century. (0:03:17)

I think it's true. I think during their lifetimes, they were sort of like the Beatles and the Rolling Stones, because Freud was the most famous psychologist in the world, and then Jung was the second most famous, and then when Freud died, he took that spot. Well, the interesting thing from my point of view, having sort of come up as a student of psychology, is that today in academia, both Freud and Jung are pretty much ignored, certainly in psychology departments, maybe not so much in psychiatry. (0:03:50)

I mean, I haven't been in an academic context of psychology in years, but when I was in university a long time ago, I asked about that, and they said, no, we don't. You might get him in a sort of comparative literature class. I mean, Freud, actually, not really Jung at all. Jung's kind of, I guess he's been marginalized into the new age, alternative thought camp. (0:04:19)

Although when the Red Book was published, oh, I don't know, maybe about 10 years or so ago, I was surprised that it got a long review in the New York Times, because usually they didn't pay much attention to Jung at all. (0:04:27)

And, you know, when I was an undergraduate in psychology back in 1969, I helped found the Psychology Student Association at the University of Wisconsin, big midwestern school. And one of our demands at that time was that the university institute courses in Freud. We thought Freud was important, but Jung would have been even a bridge too far for us at that time. (0:05:02)

But we're going to focus today on the esoteric dimensions of Jung's work. That's probably why he was more marginalized even than Freud, and perhaps why he's by many people considered greater than Freud. Well, I think certainly in the alternative world. I mean, Freud, I guess his heyday was probably like the 20s and the 30s. And then by the 1940s, and maybe into the 50s, he was sort of picked up in popular culture a great deal. (0:05:33)

I mean, because we watch a lot of films like Spellbound, or some other films where they have like a Freudian background, and it was kind of like it explained lots of things. But Jung came into his own in the 1960s, I mean, even the Beatles liked him, you know, he was on the cover of Sgt. Pepper. So he's certainly sort of in the popular, popular cultural world. (0:05:53)

I mean, the highbrow world in the mainstream intellectual world didn't really care for him very much. And there's all the business of about him being associated with Nazi Germany and things of that sort, that it's all very kind of muddled situation. And that didn't do well for him in the mainstream camp. Well, since you bring it up, I think it's important to point out that you go quite far in your book to prove that Jung was very far from being a Nazi. If anything, he was an anti-Nazi. Well, yeah, he certainly wasn't a Nazi. But I think he did make some injudicious statements at a time about sort of the racial unconscious and things of that sort that sadly, you know, easily picked up and put to odious uses. (0:06:38)

And much like Nietzsche as well. I mean, Nietzsche wasn't alive at the time, but a lot of Nietzsche's ideas were picked up by sort of Nazi, Nazi ideologues and sort of used for their purposes. But if you actually go back to the sources that they argue against, and at some point, I mean, Jung was kind of on their hit list, and his books were being burned and things of that sort. (0:07:01)

So but no, he did, he did make and the whole sort of thing where he was involved with the journal of the psychological journal that had been taken over by the Nazi sort of, you know, hacks. And he stayed on rather than, you know, cutting his relationships with them. He stayed on in order to have some of the some Jewish psychologists have their work printed and things of that sort. (0:07:23)

So he's kind of like, you know, fighting on the right side, but in the wrong camp, as it were. (0:07:28)

So both Freud and Jung were very important in the 20th century, because they emphasize the role of the unconscious. I think they really showed that so much of our behavior that we think we're in conscious control, and we've had the rational enlightenment and so on. Freud and Jung pointed out that largely we are being driven by behavioral patterns or archetypes or complexes of which we are not really conscious. (0:08:04)

Oh, this is this is certainly it. I mean, they, you know, much as Darwin didn't really discover evolution, but he managed to put the idea together in a nice package and communicated clearly. Likewise, with Freud, he didn't really discover the unconscious, but he put it together in a way that, you know, was communicated very clearly. And that was one of the main ideas that, yes, you know, rational man, 18th century enlightenment man who was, you know, in control of his fate and all that. (0:08:31)

And this was something that both of them felt was a kind of hubris on modern man and that, you know, there were powers under the surface that were, if not absolutely in control, were certainly motivating us, but in ways that we didn't really understand. But I think there's a big difference between the two because where Freud pretty much saw the unconscious as this kind of basement or kind of cellar where, you know, a lot of stuff you didn't want, you threw down there. (0:08:57)

You didn't quite get rid of it, but you got it out of your conscious mind. So there wasn't really anything in the unconscious that wasn't first in consciousness and you pushed it away down there. Whereas for Jung, it was much different sort of thing. It was the source and the matrix of consciousness. Consciousness rose out of this unconscious source, which for him was creative and productive and, you know, fundamentally positive. (0:09:19)

Well, let's start by talking about Jung's childhood. I think it's very important to emphasize his relationship with his mother, who seemed to be an unusual person by all accounts. Well, I mean, the whole idea of Jung as a mystic or Jung having a sort of relationship to the occult starts with his mother. His mother was someone who was very, very interested in spiritualism. (0:09:47)

She took part in seances and she herself used to go into these strange kind of states where she seemed to become another person. She would speak in a different voice and she would say things that seemed deeply meaningful. Most of the time she wasn't like that. She was sort of, you know, more or less regular housewife, house frow. (0:10:08)

But she would slip into this other kind of state and turn into another personality. And this was something that Jung experienced himself when he was young. He had this kind of personality number two that he saw as sort of an 18th century kind of nobleman and who was a much more masterful and powerful figure than who he was at the time, you know, a young boy. (0:10:38)

And again, you know, Jung, he plays, I mean, one of the reasons why I wrote my book about Jung was that he played his sort of occult cards very close to his chest for a great deal of his career. He didn't sort of want this to get out. And it's understandable, you know, it would hurt his career, and it has, and it did. (0:10:54)

So it makes sense that he did that. But this is sort of stuff you have to kind of look for. And I mean, late in life, when he did that autobiography, Autobiography, Memories, Dreams, and Reflections, it all kind of came out. But earlier than that, he didn't really, he wasn't that forthcoming with it. (0:11:09)

It was something that he kind of kept in the shadows. And I think it's because he felt that his discoveries, or his descriptions of what he called the collective unconscious, and the archetypal processes, and the importance of individuation, he regarded these as legitimate scientific discoveries. Well, this is the thing, he's always saying, you know, I'm not a mystic, but also I'm not an artist. (0:11:39)

I'm here, doctor, professor, I'm doing science here, and this is phenomenology. I'm just, you know, I'm just giving an empirical account of what I've just discovered, and things of that sort. And so he was constantly sort of hammering away at that. And it's, you know, sometimes it's sort of like the psychologist off-protests too much, you know, because he sort of does it a little bit too much. (0:11:59)

And that made me suspect that, well, you know, obviously there's something there that you're arguing against. You actually have a, you know, predilection for these sorts of things. And some schools have sort of renewed effort within Jungian community to kind of get back to him and saying, yes, he did all this great work with sort of free association tests and things of that sort early days when he was at the Begoldsli clinic in Zurich. So he was doing kind of hard empirical, you know, psychological science, but in the background, I mean, it was all this occult stuff there. (0:12:30)

Well, and you know, that's not so different, I think, from many people today who consider themselves psychical researchers or explorers of the esoteric. It's kind of, you walk a fine line between plunging into some sort of dark rabbit hole and doing real science. It seems as if there's a balance that needs to be struck. I think William James encountered that as well, and he came up with this notion of radical empiricism. (0:13:05)

No, it's true. But I think in James's day, there was a much more openness and tolerance for what we would call sort of parapsychology or sort of spiritualism and things of that sort, mysticism. I mean, you had people like Henri Bergson, who was in his day as a famous intellectual as Freud or anyone like that. (0:13:33)

And he wrote openly about his interest in what we call the paranormal and things of that sort. Again, William James was another one. But today, you really get viciously attacked, or you can be viciously attacked by the defenders of science, the Richard Dawkins types and all that, for having any kind of sympathy with this sort of thing. And if you're in the academic world, you tend to have to get tenure first before you can come out in the open and talk about these things. (0:14:02)

Or you don't take that route. You're an outsider like myself. I'm not associated with any university or, you know, academic standing, and I'm just kind of on my own. And, you know, you kind of do it yourself. But then, often you just, you know, nobody pays attention to you, because you're just some outsider, you know, writing books about this stuff. (0:14:18)

Well, I suppose I'm in the same position as you in that regard. Well, we're not alone. I think there's quite a few of us. (0:14:22)

Well, but this issue of the significance of the paranormal in psychological theory is sort of the fulcrum that divided Freud and Jung. They argued over this. Well, yeah, it's true. I mean, there's the famous story where the poltergeist in Freud's bookcase, when Jung is visiting Freud in Vienna, and they're having a conversation about the occult or paranormal and so on and so on. (0:14:58)

And basically, Freud's saying it's all rubbish, that kind of thing. And Jung is getting increasingly upset at this. You know, he loves Freud. He wants to, you know, he sees him as a kind of father figure and a mentor. But at the same time, he has his own ideas about these things. And he feels that Freud is just being too intolerant and too easily dismissive. (0:15:15)

And he's building up and building up. And then suddenly there's a bang in the bookcase. And, you know, Freud's kind of like, what was that? And Jung said, oh, there's, you know, there's basically an exterior catalytic phenomena, which is his long-winded circumlocution for a poltergeist. And Freud, you know, says, oh, no, it's Tosch. It's just a coincidence. He said, no, sir, it was not, and there'll be another one now. (0:15:36)

And then, bang, it happens again. And there's a description where he says Freud was aghast. And I always think of, like, you know, the cigar dropping out of his mouth and the eyebrows going up or something like that. And he was afraid of Jung after that. He was afraid because he said, God, he can make these things happen. (0:15:57)

And right then and there, he was convinced that it really happened. But then when Jung went back to Zurich and then a little bit of time passed, he wrote him a letter saying, well, while you were here, you had me half convinced, but since then I've, you know, thought about it and he can explain it and all this kind of thing. (0:16:09)

But, I mean, Freud himself, you know, believed in telepathy. He believed in all these things. I mean, he wrote papers on it. He carried out experiments with his daughter on it. But he didn't want it to be part of psychoanalysis, because in the early days of psychoanalysis, they were kind of, the occultists and spiritualists were sort of unwanted fellow travelers with the psychoanalysis there, because it was basically, you know, working on the same terrain, you know, the mind, the psyche and all this hidden parts of the mind. (0:16:39)

And Freud even says that he got a lot of, you know, letters, he got requests to write for some sort of spiritualists or, you know, paranormal journals at the time. And he turned down these requests because he didn't want psychoanalysis being associated with it. But he actually, you know, unofficially, you know, believed in all that. And I mean, I wrote an article a while back for Fortean Times about how Freud was afraid of the occult, because he believed in it, but he didn't want it, he didn't want to admit that he believed in it. (0:17:09)

And he didn't want to actually, he felt if you admit that in, where do you stop? You know, if you admit telepathy, if you admit that kind of thing happening, and he had more than one experience of what Jung would call synchronicity, and more than one experience of a kind of thought transfer between himself and one of his patients, but he was afraid of the kind of, you know, that was like the thin edge of the wedge, you know, wedge, you get that in, and then suddenly, you know, everything goes. (0:17:30)

And so, against, I mean, it was kind of like the pious lie. I mean, he wanted to maintain the sanctity and kind of the stability of psychoanalysis as an empirical science. And in order to do that, he had to say, Okay, guys, we know this is true, but let's not talk about it. (0:17:42)

Obviously, that wasn't enough for Jung. And Freud and Jung had a really serious breakup, especially because Jung was regarded as the crown prince of the psychoanalytic movement at that time. No, this is true. I mean, Freud was all ready for him to take over. And in the early days, Jung was kind of Freud's bulldog, as TH Huxley was considered for Darwin. He went to bat for Freud. He fought the good fight. (0:18:21)

And Jung was an enormously vital, creative individual. And he put all of his energy and all of his vitality into promoting psychoanalysis, editing journals, getting conferences together, arguing, taking on Freud's opponents and arguing them and all that. And Freud wanted him to inherit the throne, as it were. One reason was that he wanted someone other than someone Jewish to take over, because it was increasingly his own circle in Vienna. Most of them were Jewish. And it was this kind of thing that the Nazis would say later on in the 30s, that, Oh, Freud's psychoanalysis, it's Jewish science. (0:18:59)

So he wanted a good, you know, Protestant, like, you know, like Jung, to an Aryan, kind of to take it over. And Jung was all ready to do it. But, you know, he had, he was a genius himself, you know, he had his own things to pursue. And the break came when he wrote his first major book, Symbols of Transformation, I think was the last way it was translated last title. (0:19:26)

And he kind of hides, you know, the first few parts of it, he's more or less going along, you know, standard Freudian kind of lines, but then you get to the incest theory kind of thing. And it's no, Jung can't, he can't stay with it anymore. The whole sort of sexual repression can't be the only source of neuroses and all that. (0:19:47)

Obviously, it can be and it is in many cases, but it's not the only one. And the incest sort of motif is an archetypal motif of a kind of return to the source or return to the unconscious rather than a literal, you know, desire to sleep with your mother, that kind of thing. And that, that kind of finally comes out towards the end of the book. (0:20:01)

And he even says that he, it took him months and months and months to finish the book. He put off, you know, finishing it because he knew this would, this would make the break. And that's exactly what happened. Now, another important aspect of Jung's development, I think, is his reaction or rebellion against his father, who was a Protestant minister, along with several uncles. (0:20:23)

Yeah, I mean, again, like, there's many parallels with Nietzsche as well. And the Jungian psychologist Anthony Storr, who's written, a British psychologist, has written quite a bit about Jung. He brings this out in many of the things he's written where, yes, I mean, they both came from families where, you know, the father and many of the male figures in the family were in the church. (0:20:54)

And the thing with Jung's father is that he wouldn't discuss any of these issues. I mean, it just, it was just something he accepted. This is what he did. And he accepted the faith on, you know, just took it at face value. And Jung was one of these individuals. (0:21:04)

And he actually was very religious. He had a strong religious sense and a strong sense of actually the living God, you know, but his father wouldn't answer. He wouldn't talk with any of this sort of thing at all. And he kind of felt that his father had just sort of cut himself off from any of that kind of thing. (0:21:23)

His mother was much more open to these sorts of things. So she, because of her interest in her sort of pursuit of spiritualism, that kind of stuff. I don't think his father wasn't really interested in that kind of thing. He doesn't, he didn't partake in the seances and things of that sort. And speaking of Jung's mother, I gather from your book that the sense is that her side of the family was either touched with psychic gifts or psychological disturbances, or as is often the case, both. (0:21:52)

You could say all the strange stuff came from his, you know, his mother's side of the family. And there were a couple famous accounts of sort of poltergeists or strange activity. There was the one where there was a big dining room sort of table, and they were in another room, and they suddenly heard this big crack. And they go in and they see this oak table had cracked against the seam. (0:22:15)

It wasn't like along the seam. And then it wasn't as if, oh, well, it was just the wood drying because it was old already, and the wood was all dry and all this kind of stuff. And then another one was, there was a knife that, again, was a similar, like a bang, a kind of bang sound. And Jung was looking around to see what it could have been. (0:22:35)

And inside a cupboard, there was a carving knife that had broken into, you know, discrete pieces. And he took it to a cutler. And then the fellow said, well, the only way you could have done this was like put in a vice and kind of, you know, do it, you know, purposely crack the kind of thing. And he sent that to J.B. Rhine. He sent the remnants of the knife to the famous, you know, parapsychological researcher J.B. Rhine at Duke University. So, yeah, I mean, again, his first, his sort of thesis, you know, the psychology of so-called occult phenomena. (0:23:18)

It's an account of his experiences studying a medium in seances, but he doesn't say that it's his cousin. It's a cousin of his that, you know, so he's all in the family, but he keeps a discrete distance from it. And again, this is something that only came out sort of later on. So he didn't, he wanted to study these things scientifically, but he didn't want to show that he was, you know, really involved in it himself. I guess the idea that this would appear to sort of prejudice him in its favor. (0:23:44)

Mm-hmm. And now you're talking about his doctoral dissertation, I presume, for his medical degree. (0:23:51)

Yeah, exactly. I mean, that was it. So that was like his kind of entree into the world was about that. And again, it wasn't unusual because you've said William James, other people were studying these kinds of things. In the early, there's a wonderful book called The Discovery of the Unconscious by Henri Ehlenberg. And it's basically the history of, you know, how we've come to understand the unconscious. (0:24:16)

And then it arises out of many ways out of sort of spiritualism. It arises out of people like Swedenborg and Mesmer and people like that in the study of animal magnetism. And, you know, we have the word mesmerize, but we use it as a kind of alternative to hypnotize. But in actual Mesmer's day, he believed there was some real kind of fluid, you know, some kind of, you know, physical kind of thing that he was able to project onto his patients. And it was through that that he was curing them. (0:24:44)

But it later turned out that actually he was putting them into these trances. And the cure was come out of that. But one of his disciples, you know, basically clicked that there wasn't anything to do with any kind of magnetism, any kind of magnetic waves coming out of Mesmer's figures. It was somehow the passes were putting the patient into this trance. (0:25:07)

And then the patient's conscious mind would be asleep, but his unconscious mind would be awake and would respond to questions put to him and also was able to do things that he couldn't do when he was conscious. And so, again, so there you go, kind of opening into the unconscious there. (0:25:25)

And I think both Freud and Jung, I think Freud more than Jung, they sort of delved into using hypnotism for a while. And then they kind of, I guess, when they developed the dream theory and that kind of thing, the free association, they didn't use it as much. Well, I think if we look at the historical context of both Freud and Jung, you have a situation in which spiritualism and Mesmerism are widely spread in the population. (0:25:51)

There are numerous reports everywhere of paranormal activities associated with these things. And at the same time, 19th century materialism is really strong. And you have many leaders in the academic, scientific community saying this is all nonsense and superstition and I don't care how many people testify to it, it's not true. (0:26:19)

Well, that's the same thing today. I mean, yeah, I mean, it's the same sort of thing today where no matter how many accounts you can come up with, they'll say, oh, that's just anecdotal. And I mean, the thing is, I think many people have realized that these sorts of phenomena, they're not, they don't really like the kind of laboratory setting, because they're not something you can just kind of turn on and off. (0:26:43)

And they have much to do with, you know, the psychology of the person involved, the context, their emotional state and all that sort of thing. And so they're more kind of attuned to our emotional sorts of states than to some kind of, you know, power that you, okay, I can turn it on and off. Not to say that people don't exhibit it in kind of laboratory conditions, but they're not the best conditions for that. (0:27:03)

So you're trying to study something under conditions in which it will, you know, it isn't as likely to appear as it will in these other kinds of ones. Same thing like sort of with UFO sightings and things of that sort, you know, these sorts of things happen within a particular context, and they're not necessarily going to happen when you take it out of that context and you try to devise, you know, the proper scientific, you know, contextualization in order to, you know, get rid of bias and all that kind of stuff. (0:27:36)

And so it's understandable that, okay, the ones who want to stick to this very hard way of looking at it, they'll just, well, it can't meet this criteria, so it mustn't exist. And that was basically, you know, what was happening with 19th century materialism into the 20th century. (0:27:54)

It had a very narrow, rigorous set of criteria that phenomena had to meet in order to, you know, be credited with being true. And not many things could. You know, the things that could did, but the other things... and many of the things that couldn't were the things that are most important to us. (0:28:10)

I mean, you can't test love in a laboratory or beauty or meaning or value at all these kinds of things. And so all those things were called subjective. And the real things were, you know, little billiard balls, you know, atoms hitting each other and making us feel like that. (0:28:18)

So I think more and more today we realize that this doesn't work, but still there's a hardcore, you know, sensibility in this kind of, whatever you want, scientific kind of world where it doesn't allow for that.

(part 2of2)

Now Jung was really propelled into a deep, I'm going to call him a psychonaut, because he went deeply into his own mind, almost as if he were using psychedelic drugs, although there's no evidence, I think, that he did. (0:28:51)

But his explorations were, I think, prompted to a large degree by the emotional trauma triggered by his breakup with Freud. Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, absolutely. I mean, he certainly had a nervous breakdown, or however you want to call it. I mean, depending how generous you want to talk about what he went through, I mean, some critics of him just say he just had a psychotic episode, you know, or a psychotic breakdown for a long time. (0:29:21)

But yeah, I mean, and again, this wasn't that unfamiliar within Freud's circle. I mean, two of Freud's followers who were rejected by him committed suicide. A fellow named Herbert Silberer, who actually wrote about alchemy and psychology before Jung did. And he also wrote a paper about hypnagogia, the in-between state of sleeping and waking, that Jung read, and I'm sure influenced what he later developed as active imagination. (0:29:48)

And another fellow named Victor Tausk, he committed suicide. And then you have Wilhelm Reich, who had a breakdown when Freud kicked him out later. So it was something that was a really traumatic experience to be thrown out of Freud's circle. And Jung, yeah, I mean, Jung, when Freud rejected him, and he was not only rejected by Freud, he was rejected by the whole psychoanalytical community then. (0:30:16)

He was a renegade and all that. And so he was, you know, black sheep, persona non grata. And he plunged into this madness. I mean, he talks about fighting off the madness for, you know, for months and months and months. And he slept with a loaded revolver under his pillow, and he'd blow his brains out when the madness got too great. And his descent in the unconscious, or what he calls his night sea journey, started when he decided, well, okay, I'm not going to fight it off anymore. (0:30:48)

Let's see what happens when I let go. And that's when he, you know, plunged into the world of the archetypes and collective unconscious and started to produce what we know as the Red Book. And I guess the Red Book, which was only published about 10 years ago, is a complete documentation of what he went through. This episode in his life was almost entirely unknown until the publication of the Red Book. Yeah, I mean, it came out in bits and pieces. (0:31:18)

He talks about it in Memories, Dreams, and Reflections, and in some of his lectures, and in some of his writings on Mandala and things of that sort. He has some examples of Mandalas, and he'll say it's a patient, but it's actually him doing it. And he himself didn't know what to make of it. (0:31:41)

There's a section of it known as the Seven Sermons to the Dead. And this was, again, talking about psychic experiences. I mean, Jung was fascinated with the dead, and he spoke with the dead. They came to him. They had dreams about tombs opening up as he walked down an avenue and things of that sort. (0:32:02)

And this one particular episode, there was this incredible psychic tension in his house in Kusnacht on Lake Zurich. And, you know, the children were affected by it as well, and there were noises and bangings and all this kind of thing. And suddenly, there was like, you know, a kind of bang at the door, and he opened it. (0:32:20)

And it was like, we are the dead, and we, you know, we went to Jerusalem, and we did not find what we sought. I'm paraphrasing it. And they came to him. And it's written in this kind of Nietzschean, Zarathustra kind of mock biblical kind of language that it depends, again, how generous you want to be. I mean, Jung himself said, this is the way the archetypes speak. (0:32:43)

They spoke in this kind of really bombastic kind of language. But it is. He published that, and he sent copies to people like Hermann Hesse and others. (0:32:53)

And he didn't quite know what to make of it. And the other thing, too, is if you look at the Red Book, I mean, Jung went on and on about how he wasn't an artist. He was discovering these things. He wasn't creating them. But, you know, all you have to do is look at a few pages of the Red Book, and you see, well, along with everything else you are, Carl, you're obviously an artist, you know, because you have these wonderful watercolors, you know, page after page after page. (0:33:16)

And then the script is in this wonderful, you know, calligraphy. It's an illuminated manuscript. But he tells a story that, no, he sort of rejected the idea. His anima was suggesting to him that this was art, and no, no, no, I'm a scientist, and all that kind of thing. But, you know, again, it doesn't... I personally don't care whether he's a scientist or not. (0:33:37)

What he came up with is fascinating, and is actually, you know, tells us a lot about our inner world. So, you know, for his own career, I think he felt like he needed to emphasize that. But I don't think it's necessary to appreciate, you know, what he's given us. Will you point out that the origin of many of his later theories came out of that plunge he took into the depths of his own psyche? (0:34:02)

That's what he said in Memories, Dreams, and Reflection. He said, everything I developed, you know, later on, my whole psychology came from these experiences. And he tells the story of how he finally stops trying to fight off the madness. He lets himself plunge, and he finds himself in this dark kind of underworld, and it's like he's walking through a stream, and he sees a giant scarab, and then this kind of young man's head, and, you know, all these variety of different sorts of... I mean, and then leading up to that, he had what led him to think that he was going insane. He had all these sort of waking dreams, where he would suddenly find himself in a visionary state. (0:34:46)

And he tells the story of when he's on the train, I think it's between Zurich and Schaffenhausen, somewhere like that. And he looks out the window on the train, and he has this vision of like a tidal wave, you know, coming across the continent, and it's just, you know, debris and destruction, and all this sort of thing. And this happens quite a few times. (0:35:01)

And he's actually relieved, ironically, he's relieved later on, when he realizes, oh, no, this is not about me going insane, because this is just before the start of World War I. So, World War I starts, and so he was kind of having a precognitive vision of that happening. And he wasn't alone. There were actually quite a few other people at the time, the same thing happening to them. (0:35:26)

But when he stopped fighting off the madness, and he plunged, he found himself within his psyche, as it were. And he had encounters with entities, beings that lived there. You know, one was Elijah, a Salome from the Bible. And one of the, you know, the one that he writes about quite a bit was with the character that he later called his inner guru, that he named Philemon. And he was a bearded character with wings. (0:35:50)

And what Philemon told him is that your problem is that you think your thoughts are yours. (0:35:55)

You think you own your thoughts, but you don't. Your thoughts are like the animals and the plants in the forest. And you are one of those animals and plants in the forest. You share this inner forest with them as well. And there's a phrase that I prefer to the collective unconscious. He talks about the objective psyche, which means there are things in our mind that have nothing to do with us personally. (0:36:20)

They're not about, you know, there's our personal unconscious is kind of like the first level. And then when you get deeper, you enter this other. It's collective in the sense that we all share it, but it's not like one mind kind of thing. I think that's one of the problems with the collective unconscious is sort of the sense that we're all one mind. (0:36:33)

And it's not quite what he means. He means something that's available and shared by all of us. But it's objective. It's not about me personally. It's this other dimension of reality that I can enter into through my mind. I'm under the impression that this is sort of what William James was also getting at when he wrote about a pluralistic universe. (0:36:55)

Oh, yeah, sure. I mean, I think quite a few have had similar experience. I mean, Aldous Huxley talked about mind at large, you know, is another kind of phrase. And I mean, it's not again, the visions you have tend to be personalized. So you, Emanuel Swedenborg, he too entered into these deeper realms. I mean, in fact, Swedenborg's dream diaries predate, you know, Jung and Freud by, you know, good almost two centuries. (0:37:25)

And they're absolutely fascinating. And his interpretation of his dreams are, you know, precursors in many ways to what they were doing. And he said that we enter into the spiritual realms through our own minds first, but he went to heaven and hell. But that was kind of the context that he worked in. (0:37:44)

That was sort of the mythic language that he had, or the angels took him. He also went to other planets. Or Rudolf Steiner read the Akashic Record, and he was sort of working within this theosophical kind of narrative. And then you have people like Henri Corbin, who knew Jung, and who participated in the Erinos conferences in Switzerland. And he too, he was working in this sort of Persian mystical context. (0:38:07)

So in a way, it's the same terrain, but it appears to each of us differently, because of our own kind of personal context in which we enter it. Now, since you bring up Rudolf Steiner, I think it's interesting. He and Jung were both in Switzerland, I believe, at the same time. As I recall, Steiner wanted to cultivate some kind of a connection with Jung, and Jung would have nothing to do with him, much in the way that Freud rejected Jung. Jung was rejecting Steiner. Jung talks about how one of his students, or a follower of his, gave him some of Steiner's books to read, and he read them. (0:38:46)

He said, this man belongs in an asylum, or something like that. So he was basically saying, you know, Steiner was crazy. And I mean, again, I think, I'm sure Steiner would have, you know, liked to have met him, and would have been very, you know, cordial and civil and had a conversation. (0:39:01)

But he also, he didn't like the idea of the unconscious. Steiner's thing was that, you know, everything should be conscious, everything should be conscious mind. That's what he talks about. His way of reading the Kastrick Record was different than Madame Blavatsky's. She went into a trance state, and she sort of gave up her ego, and was taken over by these powers. (0:39:21)

But he wanted to be a conscious explorer in them. So he developed a kind of rigorous mental process while you could enter the... but what they have in common, all three of these, Jung, Steiner, Swedenborg, is that they were all practice hypnagogists. I mentioned hypnagogia before, and I briefly mentioned Herbert Silbera. All three of them were very adept at entering this kind of in-between state. Apparently Swedenborg could stay in it for hours on end, and that's when he took, went on his journeys to heaven and hell. (0:39:53)

But all three of them were able to enter into this kind of state. And it's a strange state where you can get both sort of dream material comes up, sort of fantasy material, but at the same time it can be actual cognitive, where you're actually, you know, learning something true. And I guess the difficult thing is to discriminate between the two. So they were, again, and Henri Corbin, when he's talking about how best to try to enter into these these sort of states, he says, well, we really need to explore this in-between state, between sleeping and waking. (0:40:28)

So that seems to be kind of the royal road, as it were, into this deeper parts of the mind. And you can watch the unconscious at work. And one of the things that Silbera discovered was that the images and the voices, because it's auditory as well, they're self-symbolic. They're symbolic of either your mental state, your emotional state, or your physical state, or something you were thinking about at the time. (0:40:48)

So it's a kind of reflection back onto your own processes. And you can see that happening in Jung, certainly, because he sees the unconscious as an intelligent entity of some kind that makes intelligent comments about our lives. Now, you spoke earlier about Jung's vision while he was riding a train, where he saw Europe just sort of flooded with blood. (0:41:16)

He thought initially this was something having to do with his own personal psychological dynamics. And after carefully examining himself, he eventually concluded, no, it was a precognitive vision of what was about to emerge in Europe. I know, later on, in I think about 1933, he published an essay in which he predicted the Second World War because he noticed images of the German war god, Wotan, sort of rising up in the dreams of his German patients. (0:41:53)

And he felt that this was a significant sign that the archetype of the war god was emerging in the German psyche. Well, certainly, that's what he said had happened with Nazi Germany. This is how Hitler came to power so remarkably. He was basically riding the archetype. He was kind of the voice for the archetype, and the archetype was taking over. And this was the blonde beast. (0:42:21)

Nietzsche talked about that as well. And I guess Jung was saying that what had happened is that the German soul, and again, this is where he gets into touchy territory because he talks about the German soul is younger than the Aryan soul is younger than the Jewish soul and all this kind of thing. (0:42:35)

And it wasn't the best time to talk about those kinds of things. But again, he was saying, well, I'm just doing science here. This has got nothing to do with politics. This is just pure science. But it hadn't been tamed. It wasn't tamed. It wasn't Christianized. Christianity had just basically pushed a lot of that stuff aside. And it was building up and building up and eventually would have to be released. (0:42:57)

And the sort of thing that if you don't make a place or a way for the unconscious, the archetypes to come out consciously, creatively, when you participate with them, they're going to come out anyway. (0:43:10)

And it's not always nice the way they come out. They erupt. And this is what he was saying what happened in Nazi Germany, where the ancient god of Wotan had come back, just hammer and tongs, as it were, and took over. Although I think he got, again, some people criticized him for saying, oh, well, that kind of lets everybody off the hook. (0:43:35)

You should kind of say, the archetype made me do it. I'm not personally responsible for joining the party and whatever it is you did. The archetypes did that kind of thing. But that's not really what he was saying. But he was trying to understand. And later on, when he wrote, towards the end of his life, when he wrote about UFOs, he saw the UFO phenomena. (0:44:00)

I mean, depending on who you look at it, this is something that's been throughout human history in different forms. But in the modern context, it starts in the late 40s. But the flying saucers were these kind of mandalas from outer space. They were sort of visionary projections of the unconscious, trying to rectify the schizoid split that had happened with the Cold War, with America and Russia getting ready to go to nuclear war then, somehow. (0:44:29)

So the collective mind was projecting these kind of images of wholeness out there. So Jung always had a feeling that these archetypes work on large scale, kind of historical sorts of things. And towards the end of his life, he's talking about the Age of Aquarius and things of that sort. I suppose we really need to touch on the theory of synchronicity as well, because when it comes to esoteric culture, that may be Jung's major contribution. Well, certainly. (0:45:00)

He certainly coined a useful term for what we usually think of as meaningful coincidence, where... I mean, the simplest way for me to understand synchronicity, there's something going on in your head and something going out on the outside world, and they're related through meaning. They have an indubitable, immediate, and powerful kind of impact on you. (0:45:20)

And it's as if, who knows that I'm thinking this, and how could they possibly put that, you know, precisely the right thing right there at the time for me to experience it. But it kind of becomes a one-size-fits-all term for Jung to sort of explain all paranormal kind of phenomena. And he did that book with Wolfgang Pauli. And Pauli himself was someone, synchronicities happened around all the time. (0:45:46)

And there's the whole story about the Pauli effect, where he would... and he was a deeply troubled individual, and he would come into laboratories, and the beakers would explode and things like that. And the people, when they knew he was coming, they would close down the lab or something, so he didn't walk through and break anything. But Jung was, again, he was trying to give a scientific basis for something that, you know, we've all experienced in our lives, and people have recorded it before then. (0:46:09)

I mean, one of the things that I've, since reading Jung, and I have notebooks full of, you know, these synchronicities where they just happen. And you can't, I mean, you can talk about quantum physics as much as you want, I just don't understand how they, how that, that may be the physical medium by which these things can take place, but the meaningful aspect of it is something that that's very, very different, you know. (0:46:36)

And that's what, I think that's the thing that distinguishes some radical coincidence to a synchronicity, because it always seems to have some kind of meaning content for you. It's this commentary, just like dreams are a commentary on your life, the synchronicities are a commentary as well. Well, and it's been a very influential concept. (0:46:50)

Jung also suggested that the principle behind synchronicities was also responsible for the success of divination systems like the I Ching. And I suppose he would extend that to astrology as well. Yeah, well, I think behind it is this idea of the Unus Mundus, like the one world. So, I mean, in one sense, everything is a symbol of everything else. (0:47:16)

If you know how to read it, you know, you take a cup and the rest of the universe kind of, you know, expands from that cup. And if you know how to read it, you can see, you know, the meanings of other things there. And yes, this was something, again, this goes back, he traces it back to Neoplatonism, and the whole idea of the Anima Mundi, and it's kind of the soul of the world. (0:47:36)

What do you want to call it? This kind of connection that everything has connected to everything else, you know, this kind of living world. And you can start to see experience as something to be read. You know, again, and this is something that's interesting to me, because it moves away from the scientific, not to say we shouldn't do this, but the scientific way of looking at this to more of a narrative kind of way. (0:48:03)

There's a story there. So rather than like, oh, what makes this tick? Where is this story going? What's the meaning of this tale now? And this takes us back to, you know, Kabbalah, you know, a variety of different esoteric ways of looking at the world, where it's speaking to us in some way, you know, all the phenomena speaking to us in some way. (0:48:26)

And synchronicity is a way you can read that. And it's telling you something rather than, oh, what is making, what's the stuff or the mechanism that's making this happen? And you can say, well, actually, what is it trying to tell me? And this is something that people of an earlier time had more, you know, felt more attuned with. (0:48:43)

And with the rise of, you know, rationality and all that in the late 17th century and all that, we kind of put that out of the way as superstition. But, you know, it doesn't go away. You know, it's there. It's part of us. I think one of Jung's most important books is Modern Man in Search of a Soul, where he really complains about the sterileness of modern life in terms of people being out of touch with their inner depths. (0:49:18)

Well, this is it. I mean, Modern Man, in order to achieve the kind of mastery of, if that's what you want to call it, of the planet that we have, we had to sort of put that other way of being in the world aside. We in order to understand the laws of planetary motion, we had to kick the angels, you know, off the stars. (0:49:45)

And that, I would say, and Jung himself, even though he goes on about the great hubris of rational man and all that, he would say, but, you know, we don't want to jettison that. You know, we need science and we need all that. That's part of us, but we need to bring in the other as well. (0:49:58)

I mean, that's one. And I don't know if you know the film, The Petrified Forest, an early film with Humphrey Bogart. But one of the characters in that is, he's sort of wandering out in the desert and he has a copy of Modern Man in Search of the Soul with him. (0:50:19)

So that's a very early kind of appearance of Jung in popular culture. He wasn't quite, and this is a film from the thirties, he wasn't quite as part of that kind of scene then as well. But this is something he felt a great modern man, Enlightenment man, rational man, for all his achievements. (0:50:38)

There was a great hubris where we basically think we're the, as you said earlier, we think we're the complete masters of ourselves, but there are other forces or the powers that we can reach an arrangement with. And if we don't do that, then they will be just pushing us around. (0:50:50)

I mean, that was the whole idea. We can reach an arrangement with them and actively participate with them. But if you don't do that, they're going to come and do what they need to do anyway. Well, it was to me an important book in my own growth. Actually, many of Jung's books have been. (0:51:12)

Another really crucial book of his, I think, is called, I hope I pronounce this correctly, Aeon, in which he takes the ages of astrology and endeavors to apply them to the development of eras of civilization. (0:51:24)

Yeah, I mean, he takes the notion of the precession of the equinoxes, where you have, well, this is, again, bringing us to the age of Aquarius, which depending on what system you use is, you know, we're in it already or it's about to come or something like that. And that was preceded by the age of Pisces. And I guess I think it was Taurus before then, and so on and so on. (0:51:47)

He lines up the archetypes, so he kind of talks about the precession of the archetypes. And so there's changes in the platonic year, but there's also changes in the inner astronomy, you could say. And Jung was very much a devotee of astrology. He talks about how he either did the chart himself of some of his patients or he had them done. And again, that's a synchronistic phenomena, you know, it's not so much that the stars are actually making position of the stars and making things happen, but there's parallels between them, you know, between your character and them. (0:52:28)

And you can, if you know how to read them, you can learn something about that. But yeah, this is where he's talking about, again, he took, this is, I forget exactly when that book came out, but it's a later book. But even as early as the 40s, he's talking in letters, he's talking about the age of Aquarius and that kind of thing. (0:52:46)

And he kind of comes out in the open in that book too, where he's saying how this is, the change is taking place in the psyche that, you know, seems to indicate, you know, a massive change in human history and all that sort of thing. And again, I mentioned the UFO book was another example of that. (0:53:03)

So you imply in your book that the great burgeoning of what we might call new age culture in the 1960s, the human potential movement and sort of an occult explosion that you've written about in some of your other earlier books, that Jung was very much a precursor of and an anticipator of that whole development. Well, I think he was certainly talking about it before it became, you know, very, very popular. (0:53:31)

And when the occult revival in 1960s happened, but going the early 60s, but by the mid-60s, you know, the most famous people in the world, the Beatles, were deep into it. He was someone everyone was referring to. The I Ching became, you know, that edition of Richard Wilhelm's translation of the I Ching, with Jung's introduction, that became something that, you know, everyone had. (0:53:53)

And he also, you know, he helped introduce the variety of different Eastern teachings, the Tibetan Book of the Dead. He wrote about D.T. Suzuki's books on Zen and things like that. And the Secret of the Golden Flower, which is a Chinese alchemical text. And in his introduction to that, that's one of the places where he talks most clearly about his practice of active imagination, where you consciously start up trying to dialogue with the unconscious. (0:54:23)

And so, now he was very much, you know, someone who was, and again, he's writing about flying saucers. (0:54:27)

He was certainly someone who was, although his standing in the academic world wasn't as, you know, prestigious as Freud's, I'd say, or other, you know, by that time, other psychologists, he was certainly considered to be, you know, an important intellectual figure. And so he was kind of giving his imprimatur on these things that had been marginalized. (0:54:50)

And again, he may not have been picked up by all the mainstream intellectuals, but the grassroots, you know, popular culture certainly picked up on it. I'm particularly impressed by the work he did with Wolfgang Pauli, who was a Nobel laureate physicist. Pauli was using his own dreams to explore the very significant philosophical question of the mind-matter interaction. And his dreams revealed to him some, what I think of as some rather profound answers to that mystery. (0:55:24)

Well, this was something that Jung labored at, too. He talked about something that was psychoid, that had a psychic side to it, but also a physical side. And there was some, you know, way in which he participated in both things. And this is something we find difficult to grasp or to conceptualize, because certainly, you know, since Descartes, where Descartes talks about, you know, basically mental things and physical things out there, and he and other people, Swedenborg, he was trying to find, where's the place where they meet? You know, they seem radically different, but, you know, where do they come together? And how do you get one from the other? You know, okay, neurons are associated with thought, but a thought and a neuron isn't the same thing. (0:56:11)

And so, it's sort of how we conceptualize it may be more of the problem and actually trying to find some way to, you know, some borderline where they both come together. But yeah, I mean, synchronicity would be something where you have a mental or a psychic kind of process that exteriorized, you know, it expressed itself in a outer physical kind of way. (0:56:35)

And it certainly jumps the, you know, jumps the fence between, you know, both of these kinds of places. And I guess, too, this is something, you know, quantum physics come in that because the more and more you go into, you know, deeper into matter, it doesn't matter anymore. You know, the whole 19th century idea of little tiny billiards banging against each other as atoms. (0:56:54)

Well, that went out the window with, you know, with quantum and all that. And suddenly, it's nothing like anything. You can't even visualize it in any way. We make nice little pictures of it in order for us to understand it. But when you get down to the actual level, it's not like that at all. And it becomes something that's much more like thought. (0:57:07)

I mean, even earlier, you know, someone like, I think, James Jeans, in the early 20th century, he was saying, you know, the stuff of the universe seems to be much more of a mental stuff than any kind of, you know, physical kind of stuff. (0:57:19)

I think he said the universe is more like a great story than a great mechanism. Well, there you go. I mean, that to me seems a fruitful way to look at it. And that takes us back to much earlier mythical kinds of ways, you know. Well, before we conclude our discussion about Jung, I guess we ought to also point out that he went to great lengths to try to integrate esoteric thinking into psychology by emphasizing Gnosticism and alchemy. (0:57:48)

He says he was trying to find a historical parallel to what he was doing. He somehow felt that, he somehow felt if he's come across this, there must be examples of it in the past. And the first thing he tried to find a connection with was Gnosticism. And for some reason, that didn't work for him. He says it was too difficult to make the connection. (0:58:13)

But then, well, it was the synchronicity itself that took place when he turned his mind towards alchemy. Because he was sent this book, The Secret of the Golden Flower, which Wilhelm had translated as a Chinese alchemical text. And he sent it to Jung. And Jung said, this arrived at the same moment that I was just starting to think about alchemy as, a way to enter into this. (0:58:42)

And what he fundamentally says is the alchemists were doing what he called active imagination. But they didn't know that's what they were doing. And so they were projecting unconscious processes out into the physical matter they were dealing with and the operations they were dealing with. And all of the strange language and symbols and iconography and images that the alchemists worked with were expressions of these unconscious processes that they were sort of projecting out. (0:59:17)

And people that practice actually hard alchemy, they say, well, no, it has something to do with the real physical stuff. It isn't just a projection and all that. He got a lot of criticism from that. And there are two camps. And again, you can see, well, isn't that an example of this trying to bridge the matter-mind kind of boundary? Because some Jungian thinkers about alchemy are saying, no, it's a projection of the unconscious mind onto this stuff. And you have the alchemists saying, no, it's got nothing to do with that. (0:59:43)

It's real changes, transformations taking place in matter. Well, again, they seem to be on opposite sides of this thing that Jung was trying to bridge over. But that's fundamentally what he said, is that they were engaging in this practice where they were developing a dialogue with the unconscious, but they were using the language of physical matter. And also it was a Christian language, because many of the alchemists were very devout Christians and all that. (1:00:07)

And I suppose we ought to bring up the fact that in our earlier discussion of the hermetic tradition, we pointed out that alchemy really was closely associated with that tradition, which did have a lot to do with exploring the evolution of the soul itself. (1:00:27)

It's true. It's true. I mean, it's a kind of later development. I mean, one of the things is there isn't any mention of alchemy in what's known as the Corpus Hermeticum. I mean, the Emerald Tablet of Hermes Trismegistus, which is probably the most famous alchemical tract. It's not part of this collection of texts from the second century in the Christian era. That is sort of the fundamental basis for the hermetic teaching. (1:00:58)

It's something that comes up six, seven centuries later, and there was no Greek original ever found. So it's not to say alchemy was around at the same time and they knew of each other, but it didn't sort of take on the prestige of being the hermetic art until later on. (1:01:24)

And then it was re-translated back into Europe in the Middle Ages and that kind of thing. So early hermetic teaching is much more about something that we call cosmic consciousness. Although I think I was surprised, and I gave a talk about this quite some time ago, that Jung actually didn't sort of see the hermetic journey through the planets, which is similarly the Gnostics did this as well, you know, to get back to the source, you have to journey back through the planets. (1:01:52)

And there's certainly a way you can read that as similarly to getting to the unconscious and going through the same kind of processes. And he doesn't seem to have seen that that was there. And I found that a surprising. Well, Gary Lachman, this has been a fascinating discussion as always. We've covered a lot of ground. (1:02:16)

I know Jung's work is so rich and complex and ongoing. It's really a living tradition with many modern interpreters as well. We could talk on and on and on for years about Jung, but I think this has been a very good overview, especially of the mystical side. So, thank you very much for being with me. Well, absolutely, my pleasure. And you're right, I mean, one conversation can only cover a fraction of Jung's ideas. (1:02:40)

(2025-05-26)