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Thomas Wertman (MUFON 州支部長) : UFO 体験の調査

· 114 min read

前置き​

Thomas Wertman が興味深い事例を詳しく語っている最中に話の腰を折って、host がひっきりなしに口出しするのが、かなりウザい（少しは黙って相手の話を聴けよ…と）。

そこで host の思い込みや感想といったゴミ成分を AI にバッサリと除外させて、事実と体験者の生の証言に絞って整理させた。

情報源 : 音声(77:02)​

#10 Thomas Wertman MUFON member

概要

MUFON調査員のUFO体験と調査

このYouTubeポッドキャストの文字起こしでは、MUFONのオハイオ州ディレクターであるThomas Wertman氏がゲストとして登場し、自身のUFO関連の調査事例や個人的な体験を語っています。

Wertman氏は、目撃者との対話や具体的な証言内容を重視する自身の調査手法について説明します。彼は、レンズフレアの写真を提出した後に潜在的なアブダクション体験を語った女性の事例や、自身の1960年代の円盤形UFOの目撃体験、さらにはそれに続く睡眠麻痺や黒塗りの車によるつきまといといった不可解な出来事について詳細に話します。

また、他の目撃者との間に生じる不思議な「つながり」や、調査において超常的な要素と論理的な説明を区別することの重要性についても考察しています。

要旨

承知いたしました。トーマス・ウェルトマン氏へのインタビューの文字起こしに基づいた、詳細なブリーフィング文書を作成します。ホストの個人的な意見や仮説は排除し、ウェルトマン氏や他の体験者の証言、具体的な事実、発見されたデータに焦点を当てて整理します。

以下、ブリーフィング文書です。

ブリーフィング文書：MUFON調査員 トーマス・ウェルトマン氏のUFO体験と調査事例

情報源： YouTube podcast番組 「3 PNR without a mark」文字起こしより、MUFONオハイオ州ディレクター、トーマス・ウェルトマン氏へのインタビュー。

日付： (文字起こしに日付の記載なし)

作成者： (情報源に基づき)

概要：​

本ブリーフィング文書は、MUFON（相互UFOネットワーク）オハイオ州ディレクターであるトーマス・ウェルトマン氏のUFO調査活動と、氏自身のUFOに関連する個人的な体験について整理したものです。ウェルトマン氏は、分析的で詳細を重視するデータ駆動型の調査手法を強調しており、報告された事例や体験談を深く掘り下げて分析しています。

文書では、氏が扱った具体的な調査事例、特に潜在的なアブダクションの示唆、自身の幼少期の体験とそれに続く奇妙な出来事、そして調査中に感じた特異な感覚やシンクロニシティについてまとめています。

主要なテーマと重要な事実・アイデア：​

  1. MUFON調査における分析的アプローチ:
  • ウェルトマン氏はMUFON調査員として、非常に分析的で詳細志向、データ駆動型の姿勢で臨んでいます。
  • 単に写真を見るだけでなく、目撃者との会話からより深い情報を引き出すことを重視しています。
  • 初期のケースでは、レンズフレアの写真をUFOと誤認した事例から、目撃者への深い聞き取りによって潜在的なアブダクションの可能性が示唆されたという経験を挙げています。氏は、「witness sent me a picture of something I recognized right away because it's close to my house. It was one of the markers out by our local airport... I picked up right away what she sent me as a photograph of lens flare.」と述べつつも、目撃者との会話から「then she gets into this story that really is giving overtones of potential abduction.」と、写真以上の重要な情報があったことを指摘しています。
  • 説明可能な現象（航空機、衛星、金星など）を徹底的に排除するための多角的な検証を重視しています。例えば、レイク・エリー上空の光の目撃例に対して、飛行追跡ソフトウェアの使用、パイロットへの聞き取り、複数調査員による現場での記録など、「everything was proven like three to four different ways.」と述べています。
  1. UFO体験の世代的・家族的パターン:
  • ウェルトマン氏は、UFOや関連現象の目撃が「generational through family」であるケースが非常に多いというパターンに気づいていると述べています。これは彼の調査を通じて頻繁に観察される傾向です。
  • ある事例では、3歳児が「this blue man came and he took us and he took us right through the window.」と語り、体に傷跡が見られたという母親からの証言がありました。この母親自身も数年前にレイク・エリー上空でオーブや光を目撃していたと述べており、家族ぐるみでの体験が示唆されています。
  1. ウェルトマン氏自身の幼少期の体験:
  • ウェルトマン氏自身も1960年代にサウスカロライナ州の森林地帯でUFOを目撃しています。
  • 友人とともに森の中で動物の音が全くしない異常な静寂に気づき（「No crickets, no frogs, no squirrels, any wildlife you would think of wasn't there.」）、その後、銀色の円盤型UFOが樹木に触れるほど低空を飛行し、彼らを追尾したと述べています。「I looked up and I saw a disc-shaped UFO basically brushing the treetops. It was that low.」「It was silver, no windows, no nothing like that, no features, just a disc-shaped object low enough to brush the treetops.」「as we're going through the woods, it's following us.」
  • この体験の後、数週間にわたる金縛りや、部屋を出ていくような感覚があったと述べています。（「I'd had the sleep paralysis going on. I had feelings, you know, as leaving the room.」）
  • さらに、黒いフォード・ギャラクシー（1960年代モデル）に乗った人物（後に「メン・イン・ブラック」として知られる存在に類似していることに気づく）が約一週間、毎晩のように自宅の私道に入ってくるという出来事がありました。「It was a black Ford Galaxy, mid-1960s model. And I had never read about men in black and never read about any of that stuff back then.」「that Ford kept coming back, by the way, for just about a week every night, pulling into my drive.」
  • ウェルトマン氏の友人は、彼が引っ越して2年後に車にはねられて死亡しており、ウェルトマン氏は自身の体験が友人と関連している可能性を示唆しています。（「I eventually found out not long ago that he passed away. He was killed when he was run down by a car.」「was this something that continued on after I left?」）
  1. 催眠回帰による体験の掘り下げ:
  • MUFONの友人の勧めもあり、ウェルトマン氏は自身の幼少期の体験について催眠回帰セッションを受けました。これはアブダクションに関する会議の準備も兼ねていました。
  • 合計3回のセッションを通じて、彼は「グレイ」タイプの存在に遭遇した記憶を思い出しました。回帰中の部屋の描写として、「It's just a straight room with no features at all.」と述べています。
  • セッション中、彼はグレイが「ロボットのように」「まるで番をしているかのように」「感情がなくただ立っている」様子を記憶しました。「I see what appears to be a gray standing on the other side of the room, a far side of the room.」「And it's just a straight room with no features at all.」「I get the impression that this entity is just basically standing almost like on guard. It's just standing there, like very robotic, no emotions, just standing there.」
  • 特に印象的な体験として、グレイが彼の顔のすぐ近くに来た際、突然その存在の「心の中」に入ったような感覚になり、「ハイヴ」のような感覚（数千もの存在の繋がり）を感じたと述べています。「This thing is looking my eyes and all of a sudden, I mean... All these experiences I'd had up to this point, I couldn't move. But then all of a sudden, I could see inside of its mind. And I felt like I tapped into a hive.」
  • この体験の後、彼は彼らが自分を「シャットダウンしようとし続けている」と感じた時期があったと述べており、その「リンク」は完全に切れたわけではないと感じています。（「after that experience though, I felt that they kept trying to shut me down for some time.」「it's not completely gone.」）
  1. 調査における特異な感覚とシンクロニシティ:
  • ウェルトマン氏は、特定のケース、特に「本当に何かが起きていると思われる」ケースにおいて、調査中に自身の体が「燃えているかのように点灯する」ような身体的な感覚を経験すると述べています。（「my body just kind of lights up, uh, almost like it's on fire.」）
  • あるプエルトリコでの遠隔調査事例では、目撃者から詳細を聞く前に、氏がその目撃者の部屋の様子や窓際に立つ存在の姿を鮮明な「ビジョン」として見たという驚くべき出来事を語っています。「all of a sudden here's this vision.」「She doesn't start the description, but all of a sudden here's this vision of somebody sitting in a dark room at night, looking straight ahead... There's all these windows going across the opposite side of the room... In front of the windows, something is standing in front of the window, silhouetted.」目撃者の語り始めると、「She starts describing everything I'd already seen before she ever said a word.」と、彼女の証言と自身の見たビジョンが完全に一致したことを述べています。
  • ウェルトマン氏は、自身の過去の体験が「残存効果」として残っており、真実性の高いと思われる目撃者との間に「コネクション」が生まれることで、目撃者の体験を事前に感知できるのではないかと推測しています。（「it makes me think that there's a residual effect left over. From my earlier experiences, it was never gone.」「Maybe there's a connection between us because of those experiences. And I was able to tap into her mind and see the things before she ever described it.」）これは「ライトスイッチのようにオンオフできるものではない」としつつも、「when certain individuals have very strong connections. It's almost like you can tap into that connection.」と述べています。
  1. パスカグーラに類似する事例とその物質的証拠:
  • ウェルトマン氏は、2014年8月29日にオハイオ州立公園で起きた2人の男性の体験事例を詳細に調査しました。この男性たちは、釣り中に低空を漂う光る物体を目撃し、その後不可解な出来事（音、時間の経過の遅れのような感覚）を経験しました。
  • 氏は彼らの行動や習慣を綿密に聞き取り、目撃時刻の飛行データを確認し、目撃者と共に現場で体験を再現するなどの徹底的な現地調査を行いました。
  • 現場で調査員自身の体調が変化する感覚を経験し、特に「何かが起こった」と感じた場所に、「完璧な円形の焼けた草地」を発見しました。「I looked down and I was standing in a perfect circle of burnt grass.」
  • この場所と対照地域の土壌サンプルを採取し、分光分析を行った結果、焼けた草地で採取されたサンプルから「extremely high iron contents in the soil」が検出され、その場所から離れるにつれて鉄分含有量が減少することが確認されました。
  • 目撃者の衣服も分析され、「some chemicals, not unusual chemicals, but an unusual places on the clothing that the chemicals were found.」ことが判明しました。ウェルトマン氏は、この発見を1960年代のベティ・ヒル事件で彼女のドレスから化学物質が見つかった事例と比較しています。（「one of the comparisons that was made is back to Betty Hill's dress from the 1960s. She had a similar type thing on her clothing and the chemicals were also found in unusual places.」）
  • 目撃者たちはこの体験により非常に恐怖を感じ、日常（仕事に行くこと）にも影響が出たこと、また一人の男性が特定のビーコン（灯台）のそばで車の速度を無意識に落としたことなども確認されています。
  1. 「グレイ」の性質に関する考察:
  • ウェルトマン氏は、催眠回帰で遭遇したグレイの「ロボットのような」「感情のない」様子から、ホストの「グレイは意識がアップロードされたロボット、または高度なAIではないか」という仮説に一定の共感を示しています。
  • グレイの大きな目はセンサーのような役割を果たしているのではないかという仮説（ホストによるもの）にも言及し、自身の体験における「心の中を見る」ような体験と関連づけています。「Which leads me to that theory in the eyes. I have to believe those are scanners.」「I have to believe the eyes are multiple scanners behind that.」
  • ただし、グレイがロボットなのか、バイオエンジニアリングされた存在なのかは「わからない」と述べています。「I don't really know.」自身の体験は単に「caught up like right in the middle of it」という感覚であり、必ずしも「被害者」とは感じていないと述べています。「I don't feel necessarily that anything was out there to potentially harm me. Or at least intentionally harm me.」鹿がタグ付けされて放されるようなものだと比較しています。
  1. 体験者のDNA/血液型と選択基準に関する考察:
  • 体験者の中に特定のDNAや血液型のパターンがあるという主張を聞いたことがあるが、それを裏付ける十分な証拠は見ていないと述べています。
  • 自身の調査経験からは、体験者の多くが「generational」であること、「youth」期に何かを見ている者が「later on」により多くの体験をする、というパターンが見られると述べています。（「generational sounds strong. Definitely people who have seen things in their youth have more experiences later on. So, I mean, there's a pattern there.」）
  • ホストによる、体験者のDNAデータベースを作成してパターンを探すというアイデアに対し、それは興味深く、「why they're here initially」という疑問に答える手がかりになるかもしれないと述べています。「実験」の観点からは、コントロールサンプルとしてパターンに当てはまらない個体も含まれる可能性も示唆しています。

結論：​

トーマス・ウェルトマン氏の体験と調査活動は、UFO現象が単なる視覚的な誤認に留まらない複雑な側面を持っていることを示唆しています。氏の厳密な調査手法は説明可能な事例を排除しつつ、依然として説明のつかない体験や物質的な証拠が存在することを示しています。

自身の個人的な体験、特に幼少期のUFO目撃とその後の出来事、催眠回帰で得られた「グレイ」との遭遇の記憶、そして調査中に起こる特異な身体感覚や目撃者とのシンクロニシティは、これらの現象における非物理的、あるいは未知の相互作用の可能性を強く示唆しています。

また、世代的な体験の連鎖や、物質的な証拠（土壌中の高鉄分含有、衣服の化学物質）の発見は、これらの現象が単なる心理的なものではない可能性を示唆しています。ウェルトマン氏の証言は、UFO/UAP調査において、目撃者の主観的な体験の深掘りと、客観的なデータ収集の両方が不可欠であることを強調しています。

timeline と主要関係者

タイムライン​

以下は、提供された文字起こしに基づいた主要な出来事の時系列です。特に具体的な日付や年が明記されている、あるいは順序が示唆されているものに焦点を当てました。

  • 1960年代（トーマス・ウェルトマンの少年期、サウスカロライナ州）

    • ウェルトマン（13歳）と友人のバディ（15歳）が昼間にピーチ果樹園とその奥の森で「狩り」をする。
    • 森の奥に入ると、周囲から一切の音が消える。
    • 友人のバディが怯え、「スワンプ」について言及する（ビッグフットを連想させる描写）。
    • バディがパニックになり、森の奥深くに走り込む。
    • ウェルトマンが頭上を見ると、円盤状のUFOが treetops をかすめるほどの低空を飛行しているのを目撃する。UFOは銀色で窓などの特徴はない。
    • その物体は、彼らが森の中を進むにつれて追尾する。
    • ウェルトマンは友人にUFOを見ていることを告げない。
    • 最終的に二人は道路に出る。
    • この出来事の後、ウェルトマンとバディはこの件について一切話さない。
    • 数週間後、ウェルトマンの家族はオハイオ州に引っ越す。
    • ウェルトマンはUFO目撃後、数週間にわたり睡眠麻痺の症状を経験する。
    • ウェルトマンは夜間に近くのガソリンスタンドに行った際、黒いフォード・ギャラクシーを目撃する。
    • その黒いフォード・ギャラクシーはその後約1週間、ほぼ毎晩ウェルトマンの家の私道に停車する。家族は警察に連絡しない。
    • ウェルトマンがサウスカロライナ州を離れた2年後、友人のバディが車に轢かれて死亡する。

  • トーマス・ウェルトマンの成人期（1960年代の体験から長年後）

    • ウェルトマンは自身の少年期の体験を「ベッドの下のモンスター」のようなものとして片付けてしまう。
    • UFOや超常現象に関する書籍を多数読み始める。
    • クリーブランドUFOLOGYプロジェクトなどのオハイオ州のUFO団体と関わるようになる。
    • UFO関連の古文書、ニュースレター、報告書などのアーカイブ活動を行うようになる。
    • 2008年にMUFONのフィールド調査員となる。
    • MUFONの会議で友人のアーロン・クラークに少年期の体験について初めて話す。
    • アーロン・クラークはウェルトマンに、元MUFONの退行催眠を行う人物を紹介する。
    • ウェルトマンはMUFONの調査活動の一環として、退行催眠を体験することにする。また、アブダクションに関する会議を企画し、体験者の話を直接聞く機会を作る。
    • ウェルトマンは退行催眠を計3回受ける。
      • 1回目のセッション：不明
      • 2回目のセッション：グレイ型の存在が部屋の反対側にロボットのように立っているのを目撃する。また、至近距離でグレイ型の存在が顔を調べている体験をする。この際に、その存在の心の中に入り込み、数千もの同種の存在を感じ取る感覚を経験する。これはハチの巣にタップしたような感覚であった。
      • 3回目のセッション：不明
    • 退行催眠後、しばらくの間、意識の接続を断ち切ろうとする試みを感じるが、完全にはなくならない。
    • 退行催眠後のある夜、自宅のコンピューターでグレイ型の存在の画像を検索する。
    • 複数の画像を見た後、特定の画像が退行催眠で見たものと一致することに気づく。その画像には2体のグレイ型が存在が描かれていたが、ウェルトマンは退行催眠では1体しか認識していなかった。

  • 2008年頃（トーマス・ウェルトマンがMUFON調査員になった初期）

    • ウェルトマンがMUFON調査員として初めて担当したケースの一つ。
    • クリーブランド・ホプキンス空港近くの女性からの報告。
    • 女性は当初、レンズフレアと思われる写真とともに報告する。
    • ウェルトマンが女性と話す中で、女性が日記をつけていた潜在的なアブダクション体験について聞かされる。
    • 女性の3歳の息子が、「青い男が窓を通り抜けて連れて行った」「バイクみたいなものに乗せた」「テーブルに寝かされ、誰かが痛いことをした」と母親に話す。
    • 息子は背中に「パンクしたような跡」を見せる。
    • 息子は「コミューニオン」という本の表紙に描かれたエイリアンを見て、「これが僕を傷つけた青い男だ」と言う。
    • 女性は過去にもエリー湖上で光やオーブを目撃していたと話す。
    • ウェルトマンはこのケースについて、世代間で体験が引き継がれる可能性を示唆する。

  • 2014年8月29日（金曜日、オハイオ州の州立公園）

    • ウェルトマンがMUFON調査員として調査した別のケース。
    • 19歳と40代の二人の男性が、約2年間通っている同じ釣り場で夜釣りをしていた。
    • 彼らは習慣的に、30分ごとに焚き木に薪をくべたり、ルアーを変えたりしていた。釣り竿にはグロースティックをつけていた。
    • 午後10時半頃、北の空、樹冠の低空に月よりやや大きい光を目撃する。この物体はゆっくりと漂っていた。彼らは水辺に出てよりよく見ようとするが、その後釣りに戻る。
    • 午後11時半頃、別の光がより直接的に頭上を通過するのを目撃する。しばらく観察した後、釣りに戻る。
    • 午前1時半頃、焚き木に薪をくべる時間かどうか確認する。
    • 聞き慣れない奇妙な音を聞き、非常に怯える。40代の男性は帰りたがる。
    • 40代の男性は時速80マイルで帰ると話す。
    • MUFONに報告が入る。
    • ウェルトマンはフライトデータ記録を確認し、午後10時半頃には該当エリアに何もなかったことを確認する。午後11時半頃には、Quest Medical Technologyの飛行機が直上を飛行していたことを確認し、これは2回目の光の説明となり得ると考える。
    • ウェルトマンは男性たちの職業をLinkedInで確認し、FacebookでUFO関連の投稿がないか確認する。
    • ウェルトマンは男性たちと電話で話し、報告内容を確認する。
    • 報告の翌日の夜、ウェルトマンは男性たちとその妻、ガールフレンドとともに州立公園に戻り、出来事を再現する。
    • 男性たちは非常に怯えている様子だった。
    • 40代の男性は、クーラーボックスに水しか入れていなかったことを確認する。
    • 40代の男性の手に特徴的なタトゥーがあるのに気づき、人生の大きな変化を表していることを聞く。ウェルトマンは過去の飲酒の問題を示唆する裁判記録を確認する。
    • 男性の妻とガールフレンドに別々に話を聞き、男性の時間管理の厳しさを聞く。
    • ウェルトマンは、男性たちがBeaconを通過した後に速度を上げたことに気づくが、男性自身は時速80マイルで帰ったと主張し、速度を落としたことを認識していない。
    • ウェルトマンは、キャンプ場や釣り場周辺を歩いている際に奇妙な感覚を経験し、体が熱くなるのを感じる。
    • 19歳の男性は、森の小さな音にも怯える様子を見せる。
    • 報告の翌週末の午前2時頃、ウェルトマンは一人で州立公園に戻り、調査を行う。
    • 午前3時から4時頃、ウェルトマンは調査中に地面に完全に枯れた草の完璧な円がある場所を見つける。
    • この場所でウェルトマンの体は再び熱くなる感覚を覚える。
    • ウェルトマンはこの場所、周辺、比較対照エリアから土壌サンプルを採取する。
    • ウェルトマンは男性たちがその夜着ていた服も受け取る。
    • ウェルトマンは友人（分析を行う人物）に土壌サンプルを直接渡し、特に高い鉄分含有量を探すよう指示する。
    • 分光分析の結果、ウェルトマンが立っていた地点の土壌に非常に高い鉄分含有量が検出される。この地点から離れるにつれて鉄分含有量は徐々に低下する。
    • 男性たちの服からは、通常の場所ではない場所に特定の化学物質が検出される。これはベティ・ヒルのドレスの事例と比較される。

  • プエルトリコのケース（トーマス・ウェルトマンがMUFONのケースアシスタンスグループと協力）

    • ウェルトマンが遠隔で調査したケース。
    • 目撃者は、運転中に空の光に追尾されたと報告する。
    • 目撃者は母親の家に避難するが、自身が運転して母親の家を出ると光が再び追尾を再開する。
    • ウェルトマンが目撃者と話す中で、目撃者、その母親、そして祖母も過去にUFOのようなものと関連する体験があったことを知る。
    • 目撃者が具体的な体験を語り始める前に、ウェルトマンは目撃者が夜、暗い部屋のソファに座って窓の外を見ているビジョンを見る。
    • そのビジョンでは、部屋の反対側の壁一面に窓があり、外からの微かな光（月明かりや星明かり）が入っている。窓の前には、シルエットになった何かが立っている。その姿は身長が低く、部屋の床よりも一段下がった場所（2〜3段の階段を下りたレベル）に立っているように見える。
    • 目撃者はウェルトマンがビジョンで見たのと同じ内容（暗い部屋、ソファ、壁一面の窓、外からの光、窓の前のシルエット、低いレベルにいる存在）を語り始める。ウェルトマンは目撃者を誘導していない。
    • ウェルトマンは、自身の過去の体験と目撃者の体験との間に繋がりがあり、それが目撃者の心にタップしてビジョンを見ることができたのではないかと考える。

登場人物​

以下は、提供された文字起こしで言及されている主な人物のリストと、それぞれの簡単な説明です。

  • Thomas Wertman（トーマス・ウェルトマン）:

    • MUFONのオハイオ州ディレクター。
    • 2008年からMUFONのフィールド調査員として活動を開始。
    • 非常に分析的で、細部にこだわり、データ重視の調査手法を用いる。
    • 少年期（13歳）にサウスカロライナ州の森で円盤状のUFOが低空で追尾するのを友人と共に目撃した経験を持つ。
    • UFO目撃後、数週間にわたり睡眠麻痺の症状を経験し、家の前に停車する黒いフォード・ギャラクシーを目撃した経験を持つ。
    • 成人後、UFOや超常現象について独学し、アーカイブ活動も行う。
    • 元MUFONの専門家による退行催眠を受け、グレイ型の存在との遭遇体験を思い出す。
    • 退行催眠の際、グレイ型の存在の心にタップし、集合意識のようなものを感じ取ったと語る。
    • 調査中に、被験者（特に強い体験を持つ者）の心にアクセスし、彼らが語る前にそのビジョンを見ることができるという特異な感覚や能力を持つ。
    • 過去の体験から、調査を行う際に強い感情的な繋がりや感覚を持つことがある。
    • アブダクションされた人々を「体験者 (people of experience)」と呼び、彼らを被害者として見ることを避ける姿勢を持つ。

  • Adam（アダム）:

    • ポッドキャスト「3 PNR」のホスト。
    • トーマス・ウェルトマンをゲストに招いてインタビューを行っている。
    • 子供の頃からこの主題に関心があり、ティーンエイジャーで一度関心を失ったが、再び興味を持つようになる。
    • 自身も嵐の中で青いオーブのような未確認物体を目撃した経験があるが、論理的な説明を試みる傾向がある。
    • 未確認物体に遭遇した場合、危険を顧みずに近づいて記録したいという強い探究心を持つ。
    • グレイ型の存在が意識をアップロードまたはダウンロードできる先進的なロボットまたはAIであるという独自の理論を持っている。
    • 将来的にこの分野のドキュメンタリーを制作したいと考えている。
    • 理論や仮説を語ることもあるが、トーマス・ウェルトマンの体験や具体的な事例の証言に重点を置いてインタビューを進める。

  • Thomas Wertmanの友人（少年期、サウスカロライナ州、愛称バディ）:

    • トーマス・ウェルトマンより2歳年上（15歳）。
    • ウェルトマンと共に森でUFOを目撃する。
    • 森に入ると音が消えることに最初に気づき、怯える。
    • 「スワンプ」やビッグフットのような存在を恐れていた様子がうかがえる。
    • パニックになり、森の奥深くに走り込む。
    • UFO目撃後、ウェルトマンとはこの件について話さない。
    • ウェルトマンがサウスカロライナ州を離れた2年後、車に轢かれて死亡する。

  • Thomas Wertmanの友人（成人後、MUFON関連、愛称Aaron Clark）:

    • ウェルトマンが少年期の体験を初めて話した相手の一人。
    • ウェルトマンの体験に「もっと何かがある」と感じ、元MUFONの退行催眠専門家を紹介する。

  • 元MUFONの退行催眠専門家:

    • Aaron Clarkの紹介でトーマス・ウェルトマンに退行催眠を行った人物。
    • 計3回、ウェルトマンに催眠を施した。

  • クリーブランド・ホプキンス空港近くの女性（2008年頃のMUFON報告者）:

    • ウェルトマンが調査員として初期に担当したケースの報告者。
    • レンズフレアと思われる写真とともにMUFONに報告する。
    • ウェルトマンとの会話の中で、日記をつけていた潜在的なアブダクション体験について語る。
    • 過去にエリー湖上で光やオーブを目撃した経験を持つ。
    • 3歳の息子も同様の体験を報告し、コミューニオンの本の表紙のエイリアンを「青い男」と表現する。

  • クリーブランド・ホプキンス空港近くの女性の3歳の息子（2008年頃のMUFON報告者）:

    • 青い男に窓を通り抜けて連れ去られた体験を母親に語る。
    • バイクのようなものに乗せられ、テーブルに寝かされ、傷つけられたと話す。
    • 背中に傷跡を見せる。
    • コミューニオンの本の表紙のエイリアンを見て、自分を傷つけた「青い男」だと認識する。

  • クリーブランド・ホプキンス空港近くの女性の家族:

    • 女性の体験について、ウェルトマンが彼女の心に何かを植え付けているのではないかと懸念していた。

  • クリーブランド・ホプキンス空港近くの女性の母親（2008年頃のMUFON報告者に関連）:

    • 女性と同様に、過去にエリー湖上で光やオーブを目撃した経験を持つ。

  • オハイオ州の州立公園でのケースの報告者（40代男性、2014年8月）:

    • 19歳の友人と共に夜釣りをしていた。
    • 習慣的で時間管理に厳しい性格。
    • 空の光、聞き慣れない音を目撃し、非常に怯える。
    • 人生の変化を表すタトゥーを持つ。過去に飲酒の問題があった可能性が示唆される。
    • 州立公園からの帰宅時、Beaconを通過後に無意識に速度を落としていたが、本人は認識していない。
    • 出来事の後、数日間仕事に行けないほど怯えていた。
    • MUFON調査員にその夜着ていた服を提供した。

  • オハイオ州の州立公園でのケースの報告者（19歳男性、2014年8月）:

    • 40代の友人と共に夜釣りをしていた。
    • 空の光、聞き慣れない音を目撃し、非常に怯える。
    • ウェルトマンと共に州立公園に戻った際、森の些細な物音にも過剰に怯える様子を見せた。

  • オハイオ州の州立公園でのケース報告者の妻:

    • 夫（40代男性）の時間管理に厳しい性格を知っている。
    • 夫や友人とともに出来事の再現に参加した。

  • オハイオ州の州立公園でのケース報告者のガールフレンド:

    • 友人（19歳男性）やその友人（40代男性）の時間管理に厳しい性格を知っている。
    • 友人やその友人とともに出来事の再現に参加した。

  • トーマス・ウェルトマンの友人（成人後、分析専門家）:

    • ウェルトマンから州立公園で採取した土壌サンプルと男性たちの衣服を受け取り、分析を行った人物。
    • ウェルトマンが指示したように、土壌サンプルから高い鉄分含有量を発見した。
    • 男性たちの服から、通常の場所ではない場所に化学物質を発見した。

  • プエルトリコのケース報告者（女性）:

    • 運転中に空の光に追尾されたと報告する。
    • 母親、祖母も過去に同様の体験がある。
    • ウェルトマンに自身の体験を語る前に、ウェルトマンは彼女の体験のビジョンを見る。

  • プエルトリコのケース報告者の母親:

    • 娘と同様に、過去にUFOのようなものと関連する体験がある。
    • プエルトリコのケース報告者の祖母:
    • 孫娘と同様に、過去にUFOのようなものと関連する体験がある。

  • Philip Class（フィリップ・クラス）:

    • トーマス・ウェルトマンが、自身の調査手法が彼のようにシナリオを作り出すものではないと対比するために名前を挙げた人物。

-Whitney Strieber（ホイットリー・ストリーバー）:

  • トーマス・ウェルトマンの報告者が言及した「コミューニオン」という本の著者。

  • ベティ・ヒル:

    • トーマス・ウェルトマンが州立公園のケースで男性たちの服から検出された化学物質の事例を比較するために名前を挙げた人物。

  • Joe Friday（ジョー・フライデー）:

    • テレビ番組のキャラクター。トーマス・ウェルトマンが報告者から「事実だけを教えてほしい」という調査姿勢を表現するために引き合いに出した。

以上が、提供された文字起こしに基づいたタイムラインと登場人物リストです。

展開

（以下は 3PNR という Yourube podcast 番組のの文字起こしです。ホストが、MUFON 調査員 の Thomas Wertman をゲストに招いてインタビューしています。主題は Wertman の調査した UFO 事例や、 Wertman 自身の体験を証言です。

この文字起こしから、事実とされる事柄や体験者の証言内容、体験者が何が起きたと感じたのか…こういった生のデータに重点を置いて整理して。ホストの主観的見解や主張、仮説は排除して。ただし、ホスト自身の生の体験や、ホストの集めた具体的な事例の証言は排除しないで。つまり、憶測や理論や仮説より、事実や具体的な体験内容を重視して整理して。）

（ここから文字起こしの開始） This is 3 PNR without a mark. All right, Thomas Wertman from MUFON. How are you doing, sir? I'm doing great. How are you tonight? Good. Thank you for being on the show. I appreciate your time. Oh, no problem. Anytime you want. Good. Again, just let's tell everybody who you are, what your background is. Well, my name is Thomas Wertman. I'm the State Director of the Mutual UFO Network of Ohio. And I've been State Director now since, wow, I'm trying to think now, about six, one in seven years. (0:01:00)

And I joined MUFON itself back in 2008 as a field investigator and kind of worked my way up like a lot of us do. So, you know, from the field, I guess the field investigator would be the more exciting role, right? Well, you know, it's interesting because you get to deal with the public and you never know what types of cases are coming in. (0:01:19)

And I'm the type of a guy, I'm very analytical, very detail-oriented, very data-driven. And when a case comes in, I just don't like to look at a case and let's say see a picture or, you know, if you talk to the witnesses, I mean, they've got a lot of compelling stories out there. And when I talk to the witnesses, you know, you hear their story and I like to really dig into it and analyze, you know, everything they say because I found out that sometimes there's even a deeper story behind some of the things they're reporting. (0:01:57)

One of the first cases I ever got in, Adam, was a case going back to like 2008 where the witness sent me a picture of something I recognized right away because it's close to my house. It was one of the markers out by our local airport, Cleveland Hopkins Airport. And I've got a background in amateur photography and I picked up right away what she sent me as a photograph of lens flare. (0:02:23)

Now, also she took the photograph when she was driving down the road, which I wouldn't recommend. But when I talk to her, I'm talking to her about, you know, her case and she was feeling very relaxed because that's one thing I try to get the witnesses to do, feel very relaxed. And she goes, well, let me tell you about something else. And then she gets into this story that really is giving overtones of potential abduction. (0:02:53)

And I'm like, whoa. So I'm like, wow, this is even better than, I hate to say, the photograph of lens flare. And then we had communications over several months. She was actually keeping a diary on her experiences. Go ahead. So I'm finding a pattern. And it's not for the full percentage of people, but a lot of people who are witnessing anything, whether it be in the sky or, you know, anything at all. (0:03:32)

They always, for the most part, they have a lot of experience prior to that witnessing that. (0:03:37)

And you've got not all of them, but a number of them do. And in this case, it was just even more interesting when she kept her log for several months and she had a three-year-old son. And one night she goes, you know, mommy, we left the house last night. She goes, what are you talking about? She goes, well, this blue man came and he took us and he took us right through the window. (0:04:04)

And I'm like, what did he say? She goes, yeah, he said a blue man took us right through the window. And I said, well, was the window open? She goes, yes, but it had a fan in it. And the fan was running. And she said he took us out to this thing he called a motorcycle because, you know, it's the communication of a three-year-old. He was trying to describe the best he could. (0:04:27)

Especially, you know, at three years old, especially describing even color. You don't have a strong distinction of color to later on. Right. Just to the best of your ability, what you saw and given the lighting. And, you know, when I hear this story about they went through the window, they went to what he called inside of a motorcycle. And he says, you know, these men had us down on a table. (0:04:52)

One of them hurt me, Manny. And he showed her marks on his back. Like almost somebody punctured him. And the part that really got me was, I said, you know, do you let your son watch? You know, TV. She goes, no, we don't let him watch movies, the monster movies, all that stuff. You know, we have him geared to doing something, you know, a three-year-old should be seen. (0:05:19)

But she goes, he came into my bedroom to one night carrying a book. She goes, mommy, this is the man that hurt me. And he was carrying the book communion. Oh, um, by Whitney Strieber and has the alien face. She goes, that's the blue man that hurt me, mommy. Huh? You know that book. So I'll give you, I'll give you a past experience. (0:05:45)

And this, and this is how I guess psychology could play a role. I watched a documentary and I think it was based on that particular book. Cause this is, you know, I'm a kid in his late eighties and I'm watching my mom and it's nighttime. And the dog jumped on the couch and scared the hell out of us. Right? And then, and there's another incident in my adulthood. (0:06:09)

I'm watching another movie that's geared towards a real story, you know, about exorcisms with my aunt Jeannie. And as we're watching, by the end of that movie, there was like this unsettling feeling amongst both of us. Right? So I could, I could see how I could see how mainstream media and movies could play an effect psychologically, or even in the, even in the back of your mind, right? In your subconscious, it could play a role. (0:06:34)

These visuals. Oh, sure. But in this incident, this kid's three, I don't know that he had a tremendous amount of exposure to that subject matter or those shows, right? (0:06:44)

As mom said, she, she watched things geared towards him. Right. And she says, you know, we don't do anything. We don't allow him to see movies like that. We don't allow him to watch TV like that. So really it was keeping them away from any of those effects. And that's why it caught me so much off guard when she says, you know, he had the book communion and said, this is the man. (0:07:05)

And he tried to describe later on the best he could. But again, you're dealing with somebody very, very young and you're just telling you how they interpret things. Right. Well, this is one of those cases that, you know, eventually, you know, we lost contact because I think she, she was concerned about, you know, what could be happening, what was going on. And her family members were also concerned that, you know, maybe that, you know, we were planning things in their mind, which I wasn't. I was just basically saying, Hey, tell me your experiences, you know, not leading them, not prompting them on things. (0:07:46)

Definitely trying to not put them in bad situations, but really just trying to dig out the facts. Yeah, especially with kids, you can't be really invasive, right? Because they'll tend to shell out. Right. And I think in the back of my mind, you know, was this something really happening? What was causing this whole thing? It was even digging deeper, you know, which I could never come up with an answer. (0:08:13)

Was it something that the mother had experienced? That she was the one who had been experiencing things first? Because she told me that a number of years before that, that she was seeing orbs and lights over Lake Erie, on the other side of Lake Erie, probably about 20 miles from where she was at. And she'd seen those quite a bit. Well, that region, you know, they, they do see a number of them, but without investigating it, you know, I don't want to say, Hey, this is definitely an alien craft, because I have had situations where individuals out there reporting lights, and there were lights on boats, there were lights on aircraft. (0:08:57)

And that's why I like to dig into things deep, especially if the technologies we've got available right now as an investigator. Right. But it's just one of those cases at the end of the day, that just kind of leaves you scratching your head, thinking that, you know, are they still having experiences? Are they still going on? That's another thing I'm finding very, very common. It, it appears that it's generational through family. (0:09:20)

I'm finding a lot of that. I'm not saying all cases, just a large majority. So my background, Thomas, I literally, I tell a lot of people as I interview, hopefully, you know, it'll die down a bit when I explain myself, but I was an interested in this subject as a kid and my teens, I lost it. (0:09:40)

You know, became interested again in 2017 when the military started releasing their footage. And then in, you know, obviously in the downtime of COVID, I had ample time to read, learn and research and watch documentaries. And that's what has me here today. (0:09:49)

I'm doing this. Well, we've got kind of a similar background in that respect. Right. I was a kid, a kid of the sixties growing up, watching all the, some of the shows, but I had my own experience back in the 1960s. So you're lucky, you're lucky because I, I've got to see nothing, nothing. I try, I tell everyone this, I'd really try. I look, but, or for the best part, but for you, you had your experience. That's, that's, you're lucky. (0:10:19)

And that I could see why it compelled you to do what you're doing. Well, it's, it's luck or I don't know. It's, it's something behind it that back in the 1960s, kind of give, you know, listeners a little background is me and a buddy were out. We used to call it hunting. And I use that term very loosely. We lived in South Carolina at the time over in the peach orchard side of the state. (0:10:45)

And my buddy come over and say, Hey, let's go hunting today. Okay. So we get 12 gauge shotguns out and we, we go out in the daytime. It was about three in the afternoon on Sunday. I remember pretty distinctly we're out walking through the peach orchards. And the main thing that we shot, by the way, is abandoned appliances, anything that was abandoned that didn't move. That was, that was a fair target. (0:11:10)

If it moved, forget it. We probably never stood a chance. So we're out hunting and we're going back to the peach orchards. We eventually get back into the woods and it's a very rural area where we're at. And as we're going back into the woods, deeper into the woods, my buddy looks around and he goes, Hey, Tom, you hear anything? And I look, I'm just not, I don't hear nothing. (0:11:36)

He goes, that's the problem. I don't hear anything. Well, he was 15 and I'm 13. Oh, you meant like ambience. I just caught that. Like no crickets, no frogs. No, no, nothing. No crickets, no frogs, no squirrels, any wildlife you would think of wasn't there. And I didn't notice it until he pointed out, well, this is when, you know, the story comes up. (0:12:00)

I'm like, okay, really? He says, you know, there's a swamp back here. And he's basically describing a Bigfoot. Well, I didn't know a whole lot about Bigfoot other than like reading about him in a couple of books. Well, he starts getting scared and he goes that swamp really resides back here. It lives back here. Well, instead of getting out of the woods, he starts running deeper into the woods and he picks up his pace. (0:12:28)

He's not walking. He starts almost running in the wrong direction from our houses. So we're going deeper and deeper and deeper back in the woods. Again, no sounds anywhere. And that's when I looked up and I saw a disc-shaped UFO basically brushing the treetops. It was that low. (0:12:49)

It was silver, no windows, no nothing like that, no features, just a disc-shaped object low enough to brush the treetops. And as we're going through the woods, it's following us. So here, this thing is only about 40 feet high. I look up. I see it. For some reason, Adam, I never tell him to look up. I just look up. I see it. I look at him running. I look up. I see it. I look at him, you know, back and forth, up and down, up and down, up and down. (0:13:20)

And he picks his pace up. So he's basically running to try to get out of the woods. I never tell him the whole time, hey, look up, man, look at this thing. We eventually hit a road. And to kind of give you an idea of how rural it was, the dirt-covered roads had a layer of oil sprayed on to keep the dust down. (0:13:41)

That was the type of road we eventually hit. So as we get out to the road, we start walking back because he doesn't want to go through the woods. He's scared to death to go in the woods. All of a sudden, a story comes out. He goes, did you see that big white owl standing in front of us? I said, what are you talking about? A white owl? (0:14:01)

He said, this thing in emotions was about four feet tall, standing right in front of us and had these big, huge black eyes on it looking at us. I said, I didn't see an owl the whole way home. All I heard was owl, white owl, big owl, four foot tall, standing right in front of us, nonstop the whole way home, which is probably about four miles by the time he got home. (0:14:25)

And I never told him about the UFO. So he saw something I didn't. I saw something that I just never showed to him. Well, I've tried to reach out to him. I tried to find him for years. And I couldn't track him down until not long ago. When I found out that he passed away about two years after I left, he was run down by a car. (0:14:51)

Now this brings up story number two. Before you go to story two, I hear... So for you with the UFO, looking up, looking down, why didn't you say anything? I have something similar. If I see, like, again, the only thing I've ever witnessed was, and I described it multiple times. It's like this blue orb, but it was a thunderstorm. It was like dead center of this thunderstorm. (0:15:16)

And it didn't move. It just got consumed by the storm. So I was left to wonder, right? And, you know, for me, there's this thing where I default to logic. And in my mind, I live relevantly close to an airport. It could have been a drone, et cetera, et cetera. Unfortunately for me, the storm consumed it, and I'll never know. (0:15:34)

But in your case, it could be the same. Your computer, which is your brain, saw that, and you're trying to process it. And what happens is you go to this moment. It's not maybe that you didn't want to tell them, but perhaps maybe your computer was trying to process in a default to logic sense, right? What was this? Not to mention, I hear a lot of... It's very parallel with the owl. (0:15:57)

I've heard that a few times now. And it's very parallel with the sightings of the Bigfoot. To be honest, it's not impossible that we cannot perceive what it is we're seeing. Bearing in mind, these entities probably have a greater technology. Not probably, they do. From what our military is recording, there's no doubt. They're far superior. But that also means we may not be able to perceive exactly what it is that we're seeing in a whole. (0:16:26)

We can get the parts of it. And then our brain, in that default sense, is trying to make sense of what we're seeing, allowing us to come up with some logical answer on the spot, right? So, yeah, for you, for that experience, that entire... One, I'm that guy that says a lot in podcasts. I run at the thing. Whatever it is, I have to. (0:16:46)

I've got to know. It's going to get me in trouble one day because eventually I want to get out there and do a documentary. And if I do benefit or get lucky enough to see something, I'm probably going to be that guy that gets in a lot of trouble. I'm going to run right at it. I've got to know. And I'm going to document it while I'm doing it. (0:16:58)

But for your story, yeah, I think just hearing you say that lets me know that you were trying... You're seeing that object and you're trying to default to logic. Your computer was trying to work that out. You know what I mean? Yeah. Well, see, once we got back, we never talked about that thing. We never talked about what happened after that. Neither one of us. (0:17:19)

He never talked about the... All after that day, I never talked about the UFO. It was about a few weeks after that, my family moved back to Ohio where I'm at now. But as I was saying, part two of the story, this is where it seems like, man, he's read too many books and stuff. I didn't read books at that time about this stuff. (0:17:40)

I knew nothing about this until later on. I started really digging into it. But in part two, I'd also had around that same time, bouts of sleep paralysis, almost on a nightly basis. And these bouts were getting extremely intense. They began about roughly two years before that. The sleep paralysis, a fear that something was coming. Of which, for years, I looked back at those incidents and kind of attributed to, you know, the monster under the bed type thing of a kid. (0:18:16)

And just kind of like blew it off. (0:18:19)

Well, two weeks after, you know, we had our encounter. I'd had the sleep paralysis going on. I had feelings, you know, as leaving the room, which, you know, sleep paralysis can be attributed to a number of things. Well, one night we decided to go up to a nearby gas station after dark. They were open late. And I think we probably went about nine o'clock or so. (0:18:46)

We walked up the road about a half mile or so. That was one of the closest things around. We're going to get soda. We get our soda. We're on our way back. We're walking down this, again, dirt road. That there is no ambient light out there at all, except for maybe a couple of distant security lights. As we're walking back, we hear a car coming. (0:19:07)

And this car is coming behind us. And we can hear it getting closer. But when we turn around, look, there's absolutely no headlights. Well, it's getting close. And it's like, man, this thing is really getting... let's get off the road, man. So we ran off the road. We ran up. There's like some kudzu vines around, which is a really dense foliage. We kind of get to those the best we can. (0:19:34)

We run up into a peach orchard. And this car comes down into the ditch, goes up the berm, trying to get into the peach orchard after us until it can't get any farther in. And it swerves down the road and takes off. And this is where the story sounds really hokey. It was a black Ford Galaxy, mid-1960s model. And I had never read about men in black and never read about any of that stuff back then. (0:20:03)

Never knew anything about it. And that Ford kept coming back, by the way, for just about a week every night, pulling into my drive, not his. We lived across from each other. It pulled into my drive, which kind of slights my house. And my mother is the only one home. And she would never call the sheriff or anybody down there, notify any police or anything like that. (0:20:26)

We just let it happen. But this went on until we left. And here's the part about my buddy. I eventually found out not long ago that he passed away. He was killed when he was run down by a car. Oh, did he get the description of the car? Two years after I left. No, there was nothing there. That's creepy. He was killed, that was it. (0:20:50)

Yeah, and I'm thinking, whoa, was this something that continued on after I left? Yeah. And why? Perhaps he was a selected party and you happened to be there. That's another thing. I've been reading a lot of files, as many as I can. And there's a lot of people that the party selected would be the ones seeing it mostly. It's like anything else. Someone else finally acknowledged it or saw it. (0:21:20)

And I guess now you have no choice, right? (0:21:23)

You're in it. You saw us too late. You know what I mean? Yeah, because back then I never said a word to anybody about it. I don't know if he did his family, but I never told a word to my parents because I thought, man, they're going to think I'm nuts. My buddy sees a four-foot owl in the woods. I see a UFO flying above the treetops. (0:21:43)

You know, they're going to think I'm the Looney Tunes at that time. So I just kept my mouth shut and just kind of hid that story all these years. Yeah, I mean, I get why. I mean, you know, think about this. So you're out there in the woods and it almost feels like something's playing to your fears, right? And again, if this is an advanced technology and we're having a tough time perceiving what it is or what it wants us to see, etc., you're not entirely sure. (0:22:10)

Like, again, your experience and his experience might be two different things, you know? I have a lot of theory. Again, everything I say or think in this show, this is not science. This is just my theory. So based upon everything I've read or, you know, shows I've watched, like the Reptilians, I hear that a lot. And I honestly have to believe that an advanced alien technology, if they're going to do something invasive to you that you're going to find displeasing, maybe they gave you that perception that they were Reptilians so you could associate separate incidents with separate entities, right? (0:22:47)

I mean, there's a lot of... I make room for a lot of ideas like that. And I always compare everything to our military. How would we operate if we were doing things covertly? You know, and to bounce it off you, and you'll hear it... I don't know if you heard on the other podcast yet or not, but I have this theory that the Greys are an advanced robot that has a consciousness uploaded and or an advanced AI, you know, given what they... Because again, I think we're under a long-term study. (0:23:17)

I said this in every show. I know I'm going to slow this down eventually, but I'm just... I really think we're under a long-term study because the same could be said, and I say this a lot too, but if you see ants, like we're walking around a park, we see ants driving cars and flying planes. They're using anything advanced like that. We're closing that park off and studying that long-term. We're going to want to see the evolution of that. (0:23:37)

So that being said, what do you think the Grey is personally? I mean, I understand how MUFON and there's a... Everyone has like this rolling theory and there's like protocol, but what do you personally think they are? Well, see, this is where my story goes even deeper. Right, so? Yeah, because what I did is I brushed that stuff off for years, but kind of like you, I got away from it. (0:24:01)

I started reading things, a lot of things. (0:24:02)

I read everything I could get, every book I could get. And I pretty much focused on that because you didn't have internet back then. So it was my only resource. I also started getting into sci-fi a lot. And I eventually got to a point I had to put everything away because I got married, had kids, but now they're grown and gone on out on their own. (0:24:24)

And now it's kind of like me time again. And I jokingly tell people I went through midlife crisis, and I wanted to find something to fill the extra time I started to have. Right. So that's when I got into MUFON and also another local group that we had, the Cleveland Ufology Project, which has been around since 1952. What's that project? The Cleveland Ufology Project. They have a long history. (0:24:52)

You'll have to share a file or something with me to research that. That's the first I'm hearing of that. Well, there's a number of groups that's been in Ohio going way back to like the 50s, 60s, 70s and stuff. And I also do archiving, collect archival information on UFOs, old newsletters, old documents, old reports, stuff like that. Well, I got involved with them. (0:25:17)

In one of our meetings, I was talking to one of my friends, Aaron Clark, and I was telling him about my experience because I'd never told anybody about it before, and he was one of the first. And he goes, you know, I think there's more to this. So he calls up a former MUFON person who did regressions. And he set me up whether to do a regression because coincidentally, we were also going to be doing a meeting on abduction. (0:25:51)

When you're saying regression, you're referring to hypnosis? Yes. Okay. So what we were doing is also, I thought, it's great because I'm doing investigations. I want to know what, you know, regressions are all about. Also, we're going to be doing a meeting where we invite a number of individuals who said that they were abducted in, and we're going to let them tell their stories. (0:26:14)

No judging, you know, nothing like that, just wanted to hear their stories. And I thought, what better way to experience the whole thing, you know, go through regressions and really go through the whole experience. So I went out, met with the person who did a regression. She hypnotized me, basically, which I didn't know if it would work or not. And when we got done, we had an audio tape that I kept to the whole thing. (0:26:42)

We eventually did three regressions. And she was sitting on the floor, and she was just staring in the space. And she goes, I've never had so much come out in one time. She goes, you know, we went hour and a half to two hours on the first session. And what came out is we went back to a point of where those experiences were all centered around is going into, you know, the sleep paralysis, the experiences and so forth in the woods and all these things. (0:27:15)

And it came out that there was an encounter with the graves. (0:27:18)

So your time in the woods wasn't fully accounted then. Well, that wasn't the only experience. We found out there are quite a few experiences going on for several years. And that was one of the ones we just focused on for this. And one of my concerns as an investigator was, you know, I hope she's not leading me. Well, none of the questions were a leading question. (0:27:45)

Because I've got tapes of other individuals who have done regressions, who they talk to the witness on or at them. They go, tell me about this great alien you saw. Oh yeah, it was great. It was about four foot tall, wasn't it? Yeah, it was about four foot tall. I'd say it's like a co-horsing, like an admission. You know where I'm going, you know where I'm going. (0:28:07)

I mean, they led the individual every step of the way. Well, all she did is she put me, she says, let's go back to a timeframe back in the 1960s. Back in that area in South Carolina where you had this experience in the woods. And she just put me there. And then that's when I took off and just started rolling. So we did that one. (0:28:32)

Then we went back and did a second session. And during the second session, I was in the room. You mentioned that these grays were somewhat robotic, getting back to your earlier comment. I remember looking around in the room. And I've heard this from other individuals too, where I see what appears to be a gray standing on the other side of the room, a far side of the room. (0:28:56)

And it's just a straight room with no features at all. I'm laying down flat. I can't see anything in the room. And I get the impression that this entity is just basically standing almost like on guard. It's just standing there, like very robotic, no emotions, just standing there. Watching me. Yeah, you know, this is going to be the first time I say this on this podcast. (0:29:21)

It's on my website. But one of the theories I have rolling with the grays as well, you know, again, you can't distinct them from one another. No expressions. You know, they're very cold-like. And people are often confused. When you see advanced robotics, it can't be confused with something metallic. You know, it could have like a skin-like texture to it, considering what we're doing now. (0:29:43)

But the eyes of the gray, I strongly think those are some kind of sensor. Right? If you really define what people... Like, even a way to communicate. Everyone's like, well, it could be that they're using telepathy. Or it could be their form of Bluetooth. Because, again, years ago, before Bluetooth, we would assume telepathy. But because of the advent of Bluetooth, we now know we can communicate without... Again, I guess based on what Elon's doing, he's going to put this chip in people's brains. (0:30:11)

You can communicate to send messages to someone completely silent, in that sense. (0:30:14)

But the grays, the eyes, I have to believe those are sensors. And who knows what kind of sensors. It could sense anything from infrared. It could be x-ray-like. There could be... Those are large eyes. Look how sensors are in our equipment today. You could fit a lot in that. So, in your... Oh, sure. I mean... What does this do to you when you learn this, though? (0:30:36)

What role does this play on you psychologically? Well, when, you know, we're doing the regression and especially some of the things that came out. Because there's one of the points where there is an entity right in my face. And the comparison I make to it is... I picture, you know, one of my doctors years ago used to put one of those like mirror things on his head. (0:30:59)

He'd get right up in your face and, you know, examine you. This thing was that close doing the same thing. But all of a sudden, I started going on and... Something went wrong because... What happened is... This goes back to, you know, your comment about... You know, is it... Extrasensory... You know, extrasensory skills. Is it like Bluetooth? Right. This thing is looking my eyes and all of a sudden, I mean... All these experiences I'd had up to this point, I couldn't move. (0:31:30)

But then all of a sudden, I could see inside of its mind. And I felt like I tapped into a hive. But I could sense not where it was but... Thousands of these things. It was just like opening the universe up at that point. It's like I tapped in and I didn't get a sensation that... It, you know, it was an emotional thing like... Oh crap, what happened? (0:31:56)

You know, it's not supposed to do this. I sensed that... You know, it was basically emotionless going... This connection is not supposed to happen. And it was trying to do everything it could to basically disconnect me from almost... Like the conversion you made to like Bluetooth, like basically turned me off and it couldn't. Yeah. And I could move, I could get up, I could move around. (0:32:18)

It was doing everything it could to make me lay back down and it had no control. We don't... We don't understand enough about what energy wavelengths are or sound waves. Like I get tinnitus. And you know how that can be very profound on your hearing. It's very loud ringing. And I find when you have like inner ear congestion or anything with your inner ears, the way sounds are, the way it affects that, the way... Even like high-pitched noises you typically can't hear, you could almost hear with those scenarios. (0:32:49)

We're not sure what they're using. I mean, and if you... So for you, if they were able to tap in your mind or you got in their mind, you could have a pre-existing inner ear issue that allowed you to do that, essentially, right? (0:33:04)

I mean, it could be something as simple as that and or. It's unknown. I make room for a lot. I have very little doubt in anything. I'm one of those people. Until I have proof or disproof, I just have to accept it for what it is and take the information in. Well, see, after that experience though, I felt that they kept trying to shut me down for some time. (0:33:27)

And that was a challenge at the length that they were just trying to break and they could not break it. And it took some time to eventually break that link, but it's not completely gone. This is where I think at times I get extremely intense when I do investigations. That I'm digging and I know certain cases, there's nothing there that has an explainable explanation. (0:33:54)

And if I dig enough, I will find stuff. And I don't say I'm like a Philip class who's going out and creating scenarios. Right. But you're more relatable for people that have experiences. Yeah. And I'm going back and saying, okay, if it's an aircraft, let's see if we can find that aircraft. And what I do, it's like, okay, here it is. Now also prove it, not just one way, but multiple ways. (0:34:18)

Go back, like we had sightings over Lake Erie that were aircraft. Well, I had them on my flight tracking software. I contacted pilots from Delta. They told me their exact flight path, where to come in at, where to turn at. We had multiple investigators along the lakefront documenting these lights on the nights they were seeing and going back. And everything was proven like three to four different ways. (0:34:46)

So I get very intense, but there's some of these cases that pop up out of the woodwork. That when they come, it's like, whoa. And I still am intense when I do my investigations, but at times I have other sensations going along with it. One of the first times that I did this was with a, that it happened was with a case. It was, I was actually working with the case assistance group of MUFON at that time, doing a case in Puerto Rico, long distance. (0:35:25)

Where a witness had reported lights in the sky, basically that they're driving down the road and some lights in the sky were basically following down the road. They'd pulled into their mother's house and said, Hey, these lights are following me. The mother didn't believe him until that person left the mother's house, go driving down the road and lights took off and followed him again. (0:35:50)

Well, that was what came in with the MUFON report. But I was telling you earlier, you know, I like to talk to the witness and get them to feel relaxed. Once we started talking, they said, well, let me tell you about something else. She goes, me and my mother and my grandmother have all had experiences in the past with things like UFOs. So here goes back to that connection of multi-generations you were talking about earlier. (0:36:17)

Before she says another word, she goes, let me tell you about something else. (0:36:26)

She doesn't start the description, but all of a sudden here's this vision. Like I'm sitting right in front of my computer screen right now. I've got this vision of somebody sitting in a dark room at night, looking straight ahead. They're sitting on what appears to be maybe something like a sofa. There's all these windows going across the opposite side of the room, stretching from one wall to the other wall. (0:36:51)

There's ambient light coming in from the outside. It's like moonlight, starlight. That's all the light they have coming in. In front of the windows, something is standing in front of the window, silhouetted. You can't make out any features, but something was really unusual about it. Was this figure, whatever it was, that was visualizing was not tall, but also was not the same height as the room that the witness was sitting in. (0:37:23)

It appeared to be short in stature, but based on its features, it appeared to be lower. Than the normal room height. So, she tells me about the first instance. She goes, now let me tell you about something else. And she starts talking about being in her room at night, sitting on a sofa, looking at the windows in front of her. And I didn't lead her on anything like this. I'm just letting this whole thing play out like a movie in front of me. (0:37:54)

She starts describing everything I'd already seen before she ever said a word. And I said, well, give me some more details about your room. She goes, well, I was sitting on a sofa. She goes, I'm looking at the windows. I said, you know, describe the windows for me, if you would. She goes, well, the windows go from one wall to the other wall, basically. (0:38:17)

They stretch completely across the room and the lights coming in from the outside. And I can see something silhouetted in front of the windows. Everything I'd seen. I said, give me more details, you know, about your room, everything, the layout and stuff like that. She goes, well, this creature was standing in front of the windows. And where I'm at, if you take and go forward, you have to step down a couple of steps. (0:38:43)

It goes into another level, about two to three steps down. And that's another part of the room. And that's where this entity, she called it, was standing at. So I visualized not only this entity silhouetted in the windows. I also visualized that this figure was lower, standing at a lower level than the room she was in. Wow, that's... I don't know. And I'm like, how did I see that? (0:39:14)

And the only thing, again, it's connecting the dots. I want to be very careful in doing, but it makes me think that there's a residual effect left over. From my earlier experiences, it was never gone. That here she had, what I see is, you know, most likely a true case. (0:39:33)

You know, that she wasn't lying. She was describing everything the way she was seeing it. And if it was factual, her mother and her grandmother all had experiences. Maybe there's a connection between us because of those experiences. And I was able to tap into her mind and see the things before she ever described it. It's harsh because in that scenario, you know, you're having a shared, not even a shared experience, but a shared, I guess, what's the best way to say that? (0:40:08)

Vision? She's, yeah, she's sharing the vision without knowing it. I've tapped in and she doesn't know. She doesn't. I'm just sitting back, just, you know, kind of like, just tell me the facts, ma'am. You know, Sergeant Joe Friday just told me the facts. But all the facts I'd seen before she ever said a word. That kind of puts you in a unique position in investigating anyhow, right? (0:40:34)

Well, it's, it's something that can't be turned on and off like a light switch, right? It's like when these cases pop up that, you know, it appears to be something that's really there. There's something solid that witness had an experience. It seems to be, that's what, when the connection comes into play. You know, I kind of want to reference the whole idea of it, their version of Bluetooth. And if you think about Bluetooth works, unless there's another parable or device like it nearby, it doesn't work. Right? (0:41:09)

So perhaps with you, you know, again, unclear of what causes that with you, but perhaps you get near someone who has, I guess, their Bluetooth and it's available. Right? I mean, that's the best way I could explain it. Yeah. And that's why I'm not saying that, you know, these, the, the grays are an entity. I don't know. I don't have an effects. Could they be robotic or something along those lines or something bio-developed? (0:41:37)

Yeah. I mean, if you think about what AI is going to be capable of moving forward, you hear people often, people like Elon. People like the other scientists, they, they really want there to be caution exercise with AI taken off on its own. Right? Oh, definitely. And they're definitely right about that. You don't need, especially something that's, that's going to behave in a calculating manner, you know, minus empathy and so on. (0:42:05)

As far as the grays and the robotics, I think they are, I mean, again, when you think of something robotic and has an uploadable, downloadable consciousness, the entities that created that can almost avatar the bodies of these grays. Right? And they're not going to show expressions because there's no necessary, there's no need that that's a piece of machinery. Right? As technology progresses, and I'm going to be honest, everything I get with me is not science. It's, it's my, I have a wild imagination. (0:42:39)

I'm trying to satisfy a childhood curiosity. And as movies, even in the movies, as you see a movie ideas come out, a lot of ideas for movies later on become today's technology. (0:42:50)

That's, you know, it's the truth. We base that, that fiction into a technology. So we're not sure what it is that they have or don't have. I mean, again, not to reference the, the military, what we recorded, what we saw, that defies what we know as far as aeronautics, period. So how they're doing that, there, there's a lot of speculation. I don't know if it's, they're, you know, shifting portals or they're moving through different states of time. (0:43:18)

Because I've heard several people speak of it about, they go in and forward and around time differently. And so we're not clear on it. And what you have going on, that's, I don't know, that's a, that's a mystery in itself. And it's unique. Right? And for you as an investigator, when sharing that experience with people that are experienced, well, I imagine when you first talked to them, that's, you don't make that aware yet. (0:43:42)

But that, that puts you in a position where you could be more relatable. Exactly. I think I feel, you know, a little bit more sympathy for the, you know, witness what they've gone through. Yeah, because you can't just go tell the cops, right? No, no, no. And this, this has happened several different times. It's not, like I said, you, I can't turn it on and off like a light switch, but it's when certain individuals have very strong connections. (0:44:12)

It's almost like you can tap into that connection. Yeah. So what, for you, you spoke to paralysis earlier. I could tolerate a lot. If I woke up tonight, alien in my room, I'm okay with it. I can deal with that. Physical entity, ghost, I repeat this a lot. I don't know if I could tolerate that because a ghost could sit there and sing the worst song in the world over and over again. You could do squat. You can, there's nothing you can do about it. Right? (0:44:39)

Right. But for, for me, the paralysis, that would, that would trouble me because I I'm, that's why I never got into drugs. I don't like anything I cannot control. I don't, you know, I don't want to lose control of my sensory or, or my, my body. That would scare me. And then over more, if you're paralyzed in an entity, look, if you're paralyzed in a three-year-old walks in with a spoon, I'm concerned because you're paralyzed. Do you know what I mean? (0:45:03)

I went through it and I basically brushed all those things off the back of my mind for years and never thought a thing about them until I started getting more into this. And a lot of memories started coming back. I mean, at that time, maybe I was going through the sleep paralysis. I started looking around the room because I knew something was coming almost every night. So I do the things I'd look in the closets, look under the bed. I even got to the point that I was taking sheets, anything like along those lines, I was putting it around the outside of my curtains to block every tiny bit of way anything could possibly see it. (0:45:49)

And through the corners of the windows, I was getting that paranoid that something was coming after all this was happening. And I don't know why my parents never noticed anything like it. Maybe they just thought I was just a nutty kid. I don't know. (0:46:01)

Yeah. Sometimes parents are just dismissed. Look, he'll grow out of it. But this went on for a number of years. I know I had night terrors as a kid. I remember that as a kid. But as I got older, again, I became that weirdo. When I hear something in the house, I go right, I got to go see it. And I don't think I become aggressive. I don't want to say I become aggressive. I am, I don't know. I'm just not one of those people that something in the dark is unexplained. (0:46:29)

I got to go know what that is or else, you know, there's that thing I do where I start running through logic. All right, what could this be? Was it a neighbor come home? Perhaps is the door not only closed? Like I do those things or else it'll make me nuts, keep me up all night. Well, and that's what, you know, when I do my investigations, there's certain things that bug me when I'm doing my research. It's like, okay, let's go back to the computer. Let's go back and do this. (0:46:53)

Well, after they did the regressions, that was one of the things that started bugging me. As I started playing some of the regression tapes over and we did, we did, like I say, we did three of them. And it was total of about seven hours, something like that, maybe combined. And on one of the regressions, she even brought me out of it early. (0:47:14)

Because my heart rate started racing. She could hear my, my breathing going completely nuts and not being a kid anymore. I think she was actually getting concerned. I could actually have a heart attack because of the way I was starting to go. And she brought me out. Yeah, your mind's incredibly strong in the way it influences your body. So she's, she's within the right there. (0:47:35)

Yeah. And after, you know, those regressions, one night I was on a computer at home doing some, some research on investigations and it really started bugging me. You know, what, um, this entity in front of me, I remembered seeing on, in this room, whatever the room was, I started going through the internet, searching for images. I'm going through image after image after image. And finally I find one that, oh no, this is it, but it's not quite it. (0:48:13)

And I started playing with Photoshop, modifying the image, changing the image around, changing the colors. All of a sudden, for some reason, I said, you know, this is this. There's one thing that's not quite right. It doesn't seem like it's on the right side. Well, I mirrored the image and flipped it over to the opposite direction. And I lost it. I was sitting at my computer and I started basically crying because I said, that's it. (0:48:42)

On board or on board, I wouldn't say on board at all, but in this room, wherever I was at, I remember this gray I was looking at. (0:48:51)

The gray I was looking at really, there was actually two of them. Close. One I remembered seeing and the other one I didn't remember seeing when I flipped it to the mirror image. That's why I lost it. Because the second one was like the one leading the, whatever the, they were doing. I don't want to say examination because I have no idea what they were really doing. (0:49:18)

And almost everything appeared to be mental that they were doing. No physical examination at all, as far as instruments or anything like that. Which leads me to that theory in the eyes. I have to believe those are scanners. I've heard, well, you're telling me now, I've read a lot. I've seen in a lot of different studies. I've, I've sought a lot of documentaries. I have to believe the eyes are multiple scanners behind that. (0:49:41)

I mean, it makes sense. Like I also hear like the bodies are frail. They don't look very, but you realize how strong robots could be. They don't need mass to be strong. Right? It's especially when you think of how, look how strong carbon fibers and it's relevantly thin and it's strong. I have a pool cue and the shafts made of carbon fiber. It's remarkably strong. (0:50:04)

So based on what you're telling me, what the way their, their behaviors. Yeah. I think if I had to guess they're scanning or using their eyes for something extra sensory. It's possible because I tell people, I don't really know. All I can tell them is what, you know, my tell people is what my experiences were. And I just can't remember. I can't forget that day that, I mean, I was just breaking down at the computer. (0:50:32)

Like, that's it, that's it, that's it. There was actually two of them there. And for some reason, I was blocking the one out of my mind. Like it was such a created such an experience. I didn't want to remember it. Right. Type of a thing. Yeah. That, that, I mean, that happens with any horrific thing in your life, you know? Again, for as many times I hear about the, the cold stare of these, these beings, it still leads me back to that. (0:51:05)

That's gotta be scanners in the eye. Um, in any experience you've had so far, did you feel like a victim? No, I, I just feel like I was, whatever was going on, I was just caught up like right in the middle of it. Right. I don't feel necessarily that anything was out there to potentially harm me. Or at least intentionally harm me. I was just kind of like, I guess maybe the best comparison would be, it's, it's almost like, uh, the deer being tagged, you know, that was being brought in, looked at and okay, let's put him back out in the wild now. And we'll check back on him after this, maybe. (0:51:48)

Is there any pattern with people who are experienced maybe of their DNA or their blood type? Are they being selected by any particular means? (0:51:58)

I've heard different ones claimed that there is, but I'd want to see more evidence to that because we had one guy in our area up here that kept claiming over and over again, that he's got an alien blood, that they can't do surgeries on him because his blood is, uh, an alien blood. And it's like, yeah, but you're, you're giving me all these great stories, but you're showing me no substance. (0:52:21)

I would be curious to have like a DNA, like a DNA database for people of experience, right? I don't call them abductees because that sounds like, you know, you're, you're making them a victim. Not everyone shares the same experience. Right. Exactly. So I would like to see a database collection on that. I think that would prove, I would, I've, one, I would find it interesting. Two, if you find patterns, because for me, patterns play a huge role in everything. (0:52:46)

And I imagine if they find some sort of, sort of pattern, maybe that kind of answered the question of why they're here initially. Maybe. They may be a, may be a pattern here, but on the other hand, if you think about doing experimentation, you always get control samples. That's true. So, so there's always those that don't fit. Maybe that pattern. Well, that's true. (0:53:08)

Yeah. They're still reaching out to. Yeah, they're, they're still. But, but you may, you may distinctly find something there though, that, okay, these fall within a certain range and these don't. Yeah. You know, that's, that's got my interest now. Eventually I'm going to start reaching out to more people of experience and I'm going to, I don't know, kind of like take my own notes down and find the patterns that I could, I could, that emerge. (0:53:33)

So far, generational sounds strong. Definitely people who have seen things in their youth have more experiences later on. So, I mean, there's a pattern there. I don't, so what, I guess your experience has compelled you to go work or work alongside of MUFON, yeah? Well, it's, it's, it, it really helps antiquity investigations, but really it's something that I enjoy doing because I'm a techie type person. Like I say, very analytical. (0:54:04)

And a lot of the reports we get in at MUFON, to be very honest, are typically lights in the sky. Where somebody may be seeing an aircraft, somebody may be seeing a satellite. The one I always hate to tell people is you just saw Venus. Yeah. Yeah. But it still happens to this day without a doubt. And we have to be honest with ourself and accept the facts. If there are things that have explanations, accept it. (0:54:32)

Right. Because otherwise, if people start claiming a lot of stuff that's not. Yeah, I'm not, for me, it's not good. Then you start putting all this. Like I was telling you, that orb I saw, that's not good enough for me. You know what I mean? (0:54:44)

I know that it had like a bluish aqua color, but then there's this thing with my computer, my brain again, where it's defaulting logic and it's in a storm cloud. Did the light change because of the clouds around it? You know what I mean? Like I do this default thing. And you're being logical about it. You have to. It's torture too, because then I wonder, like I'm still talking about this. It's well after the fact. (0:55:07)

And that's not even a wonderful thing that I saw. It didn't move, didn't do anything fantastic. So I'm stuck with that. Before we close, let's discuss a case that you came across where the people were having a very unpleasant outcome. Okay, now here's one. I did a star team case that came in back 2014. I got a phone call saying that, you know, here's a case coming in. (0:55:42)

It's not even officially written up report yet. It involved two fishermen at a state park who were out fishing. And I always automatically almost think of, are they getting their story from some of these other ones that have experienced this? Like Pascagoula and so forth on here. So I'm cautious about those things. Well, the case comes in. The individuals were out at the state park. They'd had the same fishing hole for roughly about two years. (0:56:12)

Two individuals, one about 19, the other one in his 40s. They'd gone out every weekend that the weather was decent, year round. The wife and the girlfriend tolerated that. They had a spot that they had cell phone communication. When they went out, they had the same habits all the time. They'd set up a canopy. They'd put their coolers under a canopy, which they claimed that they only had water to drink. (0:56:42)

They didn't drink alcohols of any sort. They started a campfire. They'd actually play a game where they put wood on the campfire every half hour. And they would jokingly guess at how close they were to half hour increments all night long. While they're out fishing. They rebated their hook every 30 minutes. They put glow sticks on their fishing poles and hung them over the water and sat in lawn chairs all night long. (0:57:08)

I've never heard like, as a, like an indicator that something's on the hook. Yeah. I've never seen that before. And they, I mean, they had this habit. So they would, the wife and the girlfriend actually would call them throughout the night to check on them to make sure they were okay and see how things were going. And these women were tolerable of this, tolerant of these guys' experiences. (0:57:31)

Well, on one given night, and this goes back to like August 29th of 2014. They're out there on a Friday night. They have everything all set up, routine going on, just like normal. At about 1030, they see this light going across the sky in the north, low on the horizon above the treetops. (0:57:56)

And it appeared to be just smaller than a moon. But I asked them if you held like a nickel or quarter arms length, is it the same size or bigger? And they said, bigger. Well, they, they see this object low on the horizon. They actually walk out along the edge of the water as far as they can get to get a better view. (0:58:15)

And this thing is just drifting slowly across the sky. It's still in view, but then for some reason they said, oh, let's go back to fishing. So that was at 1030. 1130, another set of lights come by and this one goes more directly overhead. They watch it for a while. And again, same thing, right back to fishing. So they've been doing this thing about the wood on the fire every half hour. (0:58:48)

It's 130. Is it time to put a wood in the fire? Nope, not time yet. We got a few more minutes yet. They hear this shrill cry coming out of the woods. It sounds like a shrill woman's cry. Well, that area on a side note has some of the highest concentration of Bigfoot sightings in the state of Ohio. It's a major state park in the southern part of the state. (0:59:16)

Well, one of my buddies who's in the Bigfoot says, that's Bigfoot, that's Bigfoot. Okay, I want more evidence behind that. So I just made a note, shrill woman's cry. It freaked them out so bad though. Here's the thing about that. They've been fishing that same hole for several years. That one sound freaked them out so bad. They said he almost packed everything up, threw it in the pickup truck and drove home. (0:59:41)

And the guy said when he drove, the 40 year old says, when I drive, I go 80 miles an hour the whole way. That's my speed I drive at. They didn't leave at that point. They kept on fishing. Then the 40 year old is sitting in his lawn chair, you know, watching his glow stick on the pole. 19 year old is up baiting his hook. (1:00:04)

They haven't put wood on the fire yet. They got a few more minutes. All of a sudden the 40 year old looks around and says, something's wrong. Something's not right here. Pulls his cell phone out and it's 519 in the morning. Wow. He doesn't remember anything. So they lost all that time. Right. What got him intense to begin with is he is very time management, a big time management freak. (1:00:31)

Right. He was going ballistic and he couldn't figure out what happened for like three hours and 45 minutes. Yeah. That would bother me. Do I have time loss? Yeah. He threw everything in the pickup truck at that point. They changed their clothes, threw everything in the truck and flew back and basically drove 90, 80 miles an hour all the way home. They had about 80 miles probably to drive home. (1:00:54)

They get home, they don't know what to do during the day. (1:00:57)

So they're trying to figure out somebody who can help them. So they contacted MUFON. And that's when I got involved. And as the case is coming in, I went in and pulled flight data records for the times that they talked about. And at 1030, there was nothing close in that area. At 1130, there was actually a Quest Medical Technology plane flying directly overhead. (1:01:20)

So I think that was an explanation for the second set of lights. I also pulled other records. I went on the LinkedIn website, found out what they did for a living confirming that. I checked their Facebook page out to see what they did, you know, to see if they'd posted anything on UFOs, anything like that, related to which I found nothing. Right. I got ahold of them. We reviewed the whole story over the phone. (1:01:47)

And I said, would you go back down to the state park tonight, the next night? I want to reenact everything you did. So we got down there about dark. We got everything set up. Everything was still in their car from earlier, truck from earlier. And the guy says, well, I don't drink. Well, I popped his cooler open and all he had in there was bottled water, like he said. (1:02:10)

Also, I noticed on his hand at the same time, he had an unusual tattoo. And I said, what's the tattoo for? He said, well, I made a change in my life because I didn't like the direction I was going for a while. So I made a change and that represents my change in life. I'll give you an idea how deep I dug. I knew I was going down there with these individuals by myself. (1:02:31)

So I pulled, I looked at dockets for the heck of it. And so a number of years before that, he may have had an issue with alcohol. Hence the change in life. Right. Yeah, that's... And with the trade he was in, that's consistent. Kind of consistent trade. Well, we went down, reenacted everything. And these guys were just like on... they were wired. I mean, they were terrified to go back down there. (1:02:59)

Yeah, I would be too. The time thing, like, I don't know, if aliens came to the house, I would be like, Hey, I won't tell anyone. Don't wipe the brain. Let me know what happens, you know? Or maybe it's so unpleasant we don't want to know. I don't know. But I guess I'm going to find out, right? Or I would have anyway. Right. But we reenacted everything. (1:03:19)

They went to everything that night. Even the wife and girlfriend was there with them. And I talked to them separately too. And they said, Oh yeah, he's a time management freak. If he's at someplace five minutes late, he's ballistic. He's five minutes late. Yeah, I could see what I would play a nasty effect. I called them during the week and they were too terrified to even go to work. (1:03:40)

They all lived in the same house. (1:03:42)

They were too terrified to go to work. They didn't go to work for two weeks. After two weeks, they wouldn't go outside after dark. They had to be back before dark. Interestingly enough, that night that we did the reenactment, when we drove back, the guy drove all the way down 80 miles an hour, like he said. On the way back, as we're driving back, there's a cell phone tower directly in front of us with this beacon flashing over and over again. (1:04:09)

He sees the beacon and he slows down to about 40 miles an hour without knowing it. Once we're past the beacon, he sped up. And what appeared to be there was a connection between that light of the beacon and maybe the light he saw at 1030. Yes, his computer, his brain was trying to... there's some sort of association with it, right? Yeah. And I asked him about it later on and he didn't even know he slowed down at all. (1:04:36)

He says, no, I went 80 the whole way home. I said, no, you didn't. You slowed down. Yeah. I read a story where... this guy lost his mind. Like he was a... he worked for a lab doing some form of research. You know, nothing really... I can't remember what it was, but he ended up losing his job. He became super paranoid. He boarded his house. (1:05:00)

He, uh, I think he bought, I think he bought dogs. I don't know. I think his life came undone. So not every... again, not everyone has a great experience or even the same one, right? Right. And I, you know, I don't know what his experience was at that point because we talked a few times. Um, as a matter of fact, the following weekend, or even going backing up a little bit, the night that we did the reenactment, as I'm down there, I'm going around the campgrounds with them in their area where they're at. (1:05:32)

And I felt some unusual sensations. And what happens is my body just kind of lights up, uh, almost like it's on fire. Yeah. You know, I've read that too now. Someone else said something, they get like, like not hot flashes, but their skin feels warm. Like their ears feel warm. Right. This was my entire body. And I sensed something was there, but I couldn't put my finger on what it was. (1:05:58)

And this 19 year old, he was like Barney five. He was like bouncing off all over the walls. He was just any little tiny snap in the woods. He was freaking out. And I'm thinking if you'd been down there for two years, that wouldn't happen. You should be immune to love, like little cracks in the woods and stuff like that. Yeah. Something had a profound effect on him. (1:06:17)

I went back down the following weekend because they said they weren't there and I was going to call their bluff. So I drove down the following weekend at two in the morning. (1:06:27)

So I'm walking the state park by myself at two in the morning and I don't carry firearms. I'm like, if something's going to get me, it's going to get me, you know, what can I do? So I'm walking around the state park. I got, um, as I'm going around the region area, um, they weren't there. A lot of things that they said was going on that on the other side of the lake, there were other fishermen over there. (1:06:50)

I could see their lanterns. I started walking around, not where they were at, but also other regions around the park. And I got to a point that here I'm like at this point about three to four in the morning. I've got a flashlight along with some other instruments along with me, EMF detectors and so forth. That all of a sudden I hit the spot. (1:07:15)

I'm going, damn, whatever happened, happened right where I'm at. Something happened here. I don't know what it is. I looked down and I was standing in a perfect circle of burnt grass, not from like campfires and stuff like that, but the grass was completely dead. So I'm like, something happened here. I don't know what it is. My body was just like lighting up all over the place. (1:07:39)

So I took samples, soil samples around the region. I took soil samples for that area. I took soil samples in controlled areas outside of it and marked them all. I was supposed to send them to MUFON. I didn't, by the way, because one of my friends actually I knew was going to be doing the analysis at the end anyway. And she only lives 30 miles from me. (1:08:02)

So I took the samples directly to her. Also, I got the fishermen's clothing that they had on that night and took that with me also. When I gave her the soil samples, I told her to look specifically for higher iron content in the soil, because that was something I was told to look for. When she got the analysis back, she did a spectroscopic analysis. (1:08:27)

She said, do you have a map to put these with? I said, sure I do, but I didn't give it to you intentionally. When we laid the map out, we found extremely high iron contents in the soil and the spots I was standing in. And when you got farther away from that region, they gradually dissipated and dropped way down. It's like one of the stories I read about the craft. (1:08:54)

I wasn't admitting, it was like maybe like a molten type metal was spilling from it, I guess they said. There is one that you have to be careful of. She actually did the same analysis on that. I think she did the analysis on that case was in Southern Ohio. Yeah, actually, that's exactly what I read. Benny Hoggins, I think is the name of the case. And I don't think that's quite accurate, some of the stuff. (1:09:22)

John Greenwald's website actually I think has the whole report on that case. (1:09:27)

I'll have to look that up. But there were issues with that case on the way the documentation and the way the shows presented it. That wasn't quite factual. Yeah, that's the problem with shows. They have to sensationalize things so they can make it more appealing. And if I go do this documentary, not if, when I go do this documentary, I'm building this network with yourself, other MUFON people, other paranormals. (1:09:53)

I want to build a map to go to the spot where I'm going to find something. Because, look, if my documentary is boring and it's me looking at nothing, so be it. If I find something, great. But I want to be out there and I want it to be pure. I want it to be organic. I don't want anything, I'm not going to make it, put mystery where mystery doesn't belong. (1:10:10)

You know what I mean? I really want to go out there and find it. That's a good thing because one of the shows that featured that story, presented it, that an individual walked out, he shot a UFO, the metal dripped off. These investigators come out, they get the metal, they run it up to her house. She does a, they take it right to her on TV. She does an analysis. (1:10:33)

She looks at it right there and says, oh, this is really unusual. Right. Well, I had, I called her up on that because they know her so well. And I said, wow, so those guys brought you that material in 30 seconds, you gave them an answer. She goes, no, I had that material for two years. Wow. Yeah. When she writes a report, it's like a 30 to 40 page report. (1:10:54)

Well, they're not going to tell you that in a show because they need to, because you know, they need to show to be interesting. Right. Sucks, but that's the truth. And I'm wanting to think it was different grades of aluminum was what it was. Right. Something that we probably couldn't take. Nothing out of the ordinary. Yeah. I don't think it was any unusual isotope of any sort at all. (1:11:13)

I may be completely wrong, but I don't think it was, but that's the danger of the shows like that. Yeah. They add, again, adding suspense where it doesn't belong. And I get why. Look, I get why. People, they just, they want people to be glued to it and they want their ratings. Like even this podcast, I do this podcast pretty naturally. I'm not worried about building any kind of suspense or the aha moments. (1:11:36)

I'm not worried about that stuff. I really, I enjoy speaking to you and learning. I want to learn and gather information. So when I go out and do a documentary, I have a good foundation to build it on. And, you know, strong ideas of where I'm going to go. So I'm not going out because if it were just up to what I read online, I would be in Florida for five years before I got to leave Florida. There's so much going on. (1:12:00)

Oh, sure. (1:12:00)

Oh, without a doubt. So yeah, the idea is I want to find the spots and I'm going to build this network with you and other members of MUFON and other investigators and other paranormal. So when I get out there, I can find things. And at least, look again, if I find nothing and it's boring, my apologies, but I did it purely, you know? (1:12:22)

And that's the way... go ahead. Or I find something and it's dangerous and you get to watch it and no one talks to me ever again because I'm going to run at it. Well, with these guys, I mean, we found the unusual iron in the soil. That was one thing. The clothing, one of the individuals had some chemicals, not unusual chemicals, but an unusual places on the clothing that the chemicals were found. (1:12:50)

Huh. And one of the comparisons that was made is back to Betty Hill's dress from the 1960s. She had a similar type thing on her clothing and the chemicals were also found in unusual places. You know, that case, Barney and Betty Hill, for me, and again, you know, in that time, it was a mixed race couple where they don't really... I guess they didn't want... or no, they didn't want that attention then. (1:13:23)

And then you hear Barney's story and there's a lot of strength in that story for all it is, right? There's a lot of strength in that story. That's why I find that one very attractive. Again, they were in a situation in an era where there wasn't, you know, black and white couples. And so whatever compelled them to come forward with their story, you have to understand that had to be a strong something to make them come forward. (1:13:48)

Because that's, you know, in that time, you don't want that attention. Not... Oh, back... Yeah, set aside the idea of the UFOs and the criticism that comes with that. But they faced a lot of scrutiny and a lot of reasons and yet they came. So I have to believe whatever compelled them was strong. Without a doubt, I mean, back in the 1960s, I mean, people today, I don't think understand really how, what it was like back then. (1:14:13)

Especially for an interracial couple. When I lived in South Carolina, I was seeing, you know, what it was like with the segregation back then. We're just coming... basically at that point, mid 1960s, I mean, you had a lot of things going on. In my factory, my dad worked at, there was still segregation at that point. And I couldn't figure it out as a kid. (1:14:37)

I'm like, why can't they work with you, dad? That's the way it is, son. That's just the way it is down here. And that was his answer. You know, he couldn't explain it, you know. That's one of the other things too, as far as an advanced race coming here. I hear people often say, well, you know, you don't get along with... Truth is we don't and it sucks. (1:14:54)

It still blows my mind in this era, how racism even exists anymore. (1:15:00)

It blows my mind. And then you have to factor in an advanced technology and or race coming from elsewhere. You better believe we're under a long-term study because until we evolve for whatever reason they're here to watch us and if we're not evolving, there's really no reason for them to communicate. Like we could find a really super intelligent tribe of people somewhere, right? (1:15:25)

And we're like, we have, and we're going to preserve what they have. We're not going to, we're not going to be invasive. We're not going to bother them. But also you don't invite them into per se Congress if they're still blood killing each other over, I don't know, a beachfront. You know what I mean? So it's tough. It's really tough for me. If they turn on our media, I mean, any form of our media, like television, especially the news, TV shows are going to go, what, what is this? (1:15:55)

Maybe this thing should be erased and started over again. Especially with our reality shows, right? Exactly. I mean, if they turn on the Kardashians, look out. That's insanity in itself. There's, there's, there's movies and I'm sure they can watch movies and understand that that's, you know, an art form. But when you see reality TV, there's, that's it. That's, that's poor representation. But... Exactly. Thomas, I enjoyed our conversation tonight. (1:16:22)

I want to do it again. Oh, no problem. Anytime you just give me a buzz, you know. For sure. For sure. Thomas, I thank you for having me on. Um, if there's anything you want me to link up in the podcast for anyone to view, like your contact info, just send it to me. Okay. Will do. All right, Thomas. Thank you very much, sir. (1:16:39)

Thank you. Bye. (1:16:44)

(2025-06-09)