Trey Hudson : "Meadow" での怪奇現象を語る

June 8, 2025 · 127 min read

前置き

Meadow で多発する怪奇現象については過去記事で何度も取り上げた。

Host の Jimmy Church が Trey Hudson をゲストに招いてインタビューしている。

注目箇所

以下の証言に注目。

高次ストレンジネス現象の兆候には、「電離または非電離タイプの放射線」が含まれることがあります。(0:29:37)
（例：「放射線スパイクがあれば、オーブが続く可能性がある」）。(0:29:59)
「放射線」、「地磁気異常」、「石英」、「流水」といった場所に関連する要因が言及されています。(1:06:57 - 1:07:23)

EMF 異常の機序と放射線発生の機序は無関係ではなく、関連している筈。通常は EMF 異常だけで済むが、特別な場合はガンマ線などの放射線も併発するのだろう。ピエゾ効果以外にも他の機序が関連していると思える。
石英地帯 → EMF 異常と判断できる。
その EMF 異常 → 意識/記憶障害 → missing-time、主観的な怪奇現象（＝幻覚）だと推測できる。
怪奇現象（＝幻覚）の目撃証言が一致していること(*1) は客観的存在を意味せず、共鳴認知だと推測する。

(*1)

たとえば…

スカートかキルトのようなものを着て」、「束のようなもの」を抱え、「頭から光線が伸びていた」「人型」の姿
Skinwalker ranch で購入者一家が初日に目撃した大型狼のような生物に発砲した事例。

概要 by AI

異界現象のメドウ調査

テキストは、ジミー・チャーチがゲストのトレイ・ハドソンにインタビューしたYouTubeポッドキャストの文字起こしです。このインタビューでは、「ザ・メドウ」と呼ばれる特定の場所で発生する奇妙な現象に焦点を当てています。ハドソンは、この場所での調査がどのように始まり、UFO、未確認生物、幽霊のような出来事が時間の経過とともにどのように変化し、より個人的になったかを語っています。また、経験の機密性を維持することの重要性や、これらの場所でスクリーンメモリーや意識といった現象がどのように現れる可能性があるかについても議論しています。

情報源 : 動画(1:59:15)

Ep. 2168 Trey Hudson The Meadow High Strangeness

要旨

以下は、提供された情報源「異界現象のメドウ調査」からの抜粋をレビューする詳細なブリーフィング文書です。主なテーマ、最も重要なアイデア、および関連する引用を含みます。

ブリーフィング文書：異界現象のメドウ調査

情報源: "異界現象のメドウ調査"からの抜粋（ポッドキャスト/インタビューの書き起こし）

概要:

この文書は、「異界現象のメドウ調査」と題された情報源から得られた知見をまとめたものです。この情報源は、トレースと呼ばれる研究者が、特定の場所（「メドウ」）で経験した高次ストレンジネス現象、および広く未確認現象（UFO、クリプティッド、幽霊など）に関する調査、個人的な経験、そしてこれらの現象の潜在的な性質についての推測を語るインタビューの一部です。

主な焦点は、場所の秘密保持、現象の進化、記憶の信頼性、そしてこれらの現象が科学、意識、そして潜在的な異次元存在とどのように関連しうるかという広範な議論です。

主なテーマと重要なアイデア/事実:

「メドウ」とその秘密保持:

トレースは、彼が調査している特定の場所を「メドウ」と呼んでおり、そこは「UFO、クリプティッド、幽霊といった民間伝承や目撃情報が報告されている」高次ストレンジネス現象のホットスポットです。(0:16:57)
この場所は「広々とした開けた場所」であり、周囲には「南に大きな尾根」があり、夜間には「移動するものが見える」視界が得られます。(0:16:38 - 0:16:57)
メドウの具体的な場所は厳重に秘密にされています。これは、Skinwalker RanchやBlind Frog Ranchのように、場所が公開されることで発生する「不法侵入者」の問題を避けるためです。(0:20:33 - 0:21:35)
トレースは、この場所が「公有地にある」ため、「特に脆弱」であると述べています。(0:21:35)
秘密保持のため、ドキュメンタリー撮影のチーム全員が「秘密保持契約書に署名」し、トレースは「運用セキュリティ計画」を策定しました。(0:21:53 - 0:22:17)
場所を特定しようとする試みは多くありましたが、トレースはそれを拒否し、一般的な地域情報（「太平洋の東」、「メーソン・ディクソン線の南、アリゾナの東」）のみを開示しています。(0:18:36 - 0:20:33)
メドウは「非常に遠隔地」にあり、携帯電話の信号も届かないほどです。(0:22:53 - 0:23:21)

高次ストレンジネス現象の性質と進化:

メドウでの現象は「進化している」と述べられています。(0:16:57)
高次ストレンジネス現象の兆候には、「電離または非電離タイプの放射線」が含まれることがあります。(0:29:37)
研究者間でデータを共有することで、「これらのサイトが何であるかのより良い全体像」を得て、「予測モデル」を開発できる可能性があるとトレースは示唆しています（例：「放射線スパイクがあれば、オーブが続く可能性がある」）。(0:29:59)

記憶とスクリーンメモリー:

高次ストレンジネスの遭遇においては、「記憶」が問題となる場合があります。(0:40:09)
「スクリーンメモリー」という概念が繰り返し言及されています。これは、「非常に奇妙なものに遭遇した人々」が、実際にはもっと奇妙な出来事の覆い隠しや代替として記憶している可能性があるものです。(0:40:09 - 0:42:28)
メドウでの車の件で、参加者の一人が他の4人と異なる記憶を持っていたこと、そしてキャンプ場で車両の音を聞いた人物が、催眠回帰で「ジープ」と「完全に黒い影のような2つの人影」を見たと思い出したことが例として挙げられています。(0:39:34 - 0:40:09, 0:49:22 - 0:51:10)
催眠回帰は、スクリーンメモリーの背後にある真実を探る手段として議論されています。(0:50:10)
提供された情報源の中で、「記憶は、ある種の奇妙なことに遭遇した人々にとって特に問題となる」ことが重要なアイデアとして示されています。(0:40:09)
「『スクリーンメモリー』は、人々が経験したことへの防御機構である可能性があり、より受け入れやすい記憶で真実を覆い隠す。」(0:51:37 - 0:52:01)
「特定の出来事（メドウでの車の件、Devil's Denでのテントの件）では、異なる人々が同じ経験の異なる側面を記憶している。」(0:52:01 - 0:52:29)

遭遇の例とアーキタイプ:

インタビューアーが語った、霧の中から現れて「私の犬を見ませんでしたか？」と尋ねた「フードをかぶった黒い服の人物」の遭遇。(0:30:59 - 0:32:52)
トレースはこれを「アーキタイプ」と見なしており、「フードをかぶった人影」、「シャドウパーソン」、「ハットマン」といった「来訪者」の象徴であり、時には「無害な質問」をすると説明しています。(0:33:06 - 0:34:19)
Skinwalker RanchのRyan Burnsの経験（道路上の服が人影に立ち上がった）や、南東部のRaven Mocker、Spearfinger Witchといった民間伝承の存在も、これらの「実体」や「アーキタイプ」の例として比較されています。(0:34:47 - 0:35:45)
トレースが経験した、夜中にテントの近くを通り過ぎた「スカートかキルトのようなものを着て」、「束のようなもの」を抱え、「頭から光線が伸びていた」「人型」の姿。(0:42:28 - 0:43:55)
この姿は、地域の民間伝承である「Spearfinger Witch」（子供の肝臓を食べる女性の姿）と比較されており、過去の現実への潜在的な繋がりが示唆されています。(0:45:45 - 0:46:07)
キャンプ場付近で、光は見えずに音だけが聞こえた車両が、催眠回帰下ではジープと黒い影の存在として記憶された件。(0:49:22 - 0:51:10)
基地キャンプで、催眠中の監督の周りに「影のような人影」が見え、それがフィルムに記録された件。(1:11:49 - 1:12:20)
あるチームメンバーが経験したことが、「誘拐として描写されていること」に「ほとんど教科書通りに似ている」と述べられています。(0:55:58 - 0:56:16)

場所固有性 vs. 人固有性:

高次ストレンジネス現象が「場所固有」なのかという問いに対し、トレースは「そのことについては少し迷っている」と答えています。(1:05:21 - 1:05:47)
Glastonbury Tor、Stonehenge、米国内の特定の場所のように、歴史的に「神聖な場所」や「負のオーラ」を持つ場所が挙げられています。(1:05:47 - 1:06:29)
「放射線」、「地磁気異常」、「石英」、「流水」といった場所に関連する要因が言及されています。(1:06:57 - 1:07:23)
しかし、後半では、「基地キャンプで奇妙なことが起こる」ようになったことから、「場所よりも人に関係があるのかどうか」を考え始める必要があると述べています。(1:14:34 - 1:15:02)
「適切な心の状態のグループ、相乗的な...ゲシュタルト」が現象を引き起こす可能性があることが示唆されています。(1:15:02 - 1:16:02)

科学、意識、そして異次元性:

トレースは、未確認現象の分野で「答えを持っておらず、適切な質問さえ知らない」と正直に認めています。(1:13:02 - 1:13:29)
「平行した異次元存在が私たちの周りに存在し、時々焦点や周波数に入り込んでくる」という科学的説明の可能性が示唆されています。これにより、幽霊、実体、スキンウォーカー、UFO、オーブ、クリプティッドといった現象が説明される可能性があると述べられています。(1:16:02 - 1:16:51)
Leeuwenhoekが微生物を発見した例を挙げて、人間が「限られた周波数」しか知覚できないこと、そして技術によってそれを拡大できるものの、まだ限界があることを説明しています。(1:17:46 - 1:18:34)
量子論、「距離における不気味な作用」、そして「巨大な物体が時空を曲げて他の次元に入る」といった概念が高次ストレンジネス現象を理解する上で関連性があることが示唆されています。(1:18:34 - 1:19:20)
過去の人々（ハロウィンの例など）は、現代の私たちよりもこれらの「別の現実」をより容易に受け入れられたかもしれないと推測されています。(1:20:56 - 1:21:45)
現象を「知る」こと（直接経験すること）と「信じる」こと（宗教的信念）の違いが議論されています。(1:23:32 - 1:24:10)
人間を「蟻」や「金魚鉢の魚」に例え、現象が私たちの「宇宙の外」にあるため、私たちはそれを理解するための「言葉さえない」と説明しています。(1:24:48 - 1:26:54)
「量子効果がマクロスケールで起こっている」可能性、そして「2つの現実が同時に存在できる」可能性が示唆されています。(1:31:32 - 1:31:58)
現象は「意識とエンタングルメント」に関連している可能性があり、「重力」も関連しているかもしれないと述べられています。(1:54:49 - 1:55:16)
「存在した、存在している、あるいは存在するであろうすべては、今何らかの形で存在している」という考え方が示唆されています。(1:55:16 - 1:55:29)

政府と諜報機関の関与:

「諜報機関や国防総省」がこれらの現象について「深い知識」を持っているはずだとインタビューアーは考えています。(1:51:34)
トレースは、自身が元軍事諜報員であったことを認めつつ、彼のメドウに関する公の活動に対して、「情報機関」から「メドウ・プロジェクト」の書籍を個人的に関心を持って求めた一人のエージェント以外からの関心は「唯一の」ものだったと述べています。(1:38:27 - 1:40:09)
退職しても「守秘義務は切れない」と述べていますが、アフガニスタンやイラクでの未確認現象や考古学的発見についての噂について、彼は「私自身は、そのようなものに遭遇したことはありませんでした」と個人的な経験を否定しています。(1:41:04 - 1:41:55)
過去の政府のプロジェクト（Psychic Spies Behind the Iron Curtain、Project Jedi、Gateway Project、Project Stargate、Grille Flame、NIDSによるSkinwalker Ranchでの研究）が、潜在能力、遠隔透視、未確認現象への関心を示唆していることが議論されています。(1:51:45 - 1:53:45)
遠隔透視は「現実のものである」、「反復可能」、「測定可能」、「存在する」と確信を持って述べられています。(1:52:53 - 1:53:05)
「プログラムは存在する。そして、コード名を変えただけでは消滅しない」と述べ、これらの研究がまだ続いている可能性が高いことを示唆しています。(1:53:18 - 1:53:31)
政府がデータを収集し、機密化していること（Robert BigelowのNIDS研究のように）が言及されています。(1:53:45 - 1:54:20)

開示と人間の受容:

科学が異次元存在の存在を証明した場合、「多くの人々をひどく動揺させる」可能性があると述べられています。(1:16:51 - 1:17:09)
過去の人々は、現代人よりもこれらの現実を容易に受け入れられたかもしれないと推測されています。(1:21:40 - 1:21:45)
「開示」の核心は、「存在論的な苦境」に人々を陥らせることなく、この情報をどのように伝えるかにあるとトレースは示唆しています。(1:21:40 - 1:22:19)

研究方法と今後の活動:

夜間視力やサーマル装置を使用したチームによる調査が行われています。(1:28:20 - 1:28:36)
催眠回帰が記憶の信頼性を探るために使用されています。(0:50:10 - 0:50:37)
Estesプロトコル、誘導された思考実験、God Helmetといった「技術」や「テクニック」が現象を「スーパーチャージする」ために使用されていることが言及されています。(1:07:23 - 1:07:55)
トレースは、新しい本「Return to the Meadow」を発表しています。(1:55:29 - 1:57:37)
「LVL」（可能性として別の調査場所）での作業が11月に予定されていることが言及されています。(0:26:00 - 0:26:16)
自身が高価なキャンピングカーを購入し、以前よりも快適な環境で調査を行っていることが語られています。(0:24:50 - 0:25:34)

注目すべき引用:

「そして、これが広々とした開けた場所だと思ったんだ。足跡が見える。夜間には何か横切るものが見える。(0:16:38)」
「そして、クールなのは、私が本で触れているけど、それは進化しているということなんだ。(0:16:57)」
「そして、メドウについて特に脆弱なのは、それが公有地にあるということなんだ。(0:21:35)」
「人々がこれらのサイトでデータを共有し始めれば、これらのサイトが何であるかのより良い全体像を得て、おそらくこのような指標があれば、これが起こるだろうという予測モデルを考案できる可能性があると願っている。(0:29:59)」
「そして、クールなのは、全員が正しく、同時に全員が間違っていたということだ。(1:50:57)」
「私たちは蟻なんだ。(1:25:19)」
「私たちは知覚できる周波数が非常に狭いんだ。(1:18:18)」
「プログラムは存在する。そして、コード名を変えただけでは消滅しない。(1:53:18)」

結論:

この情報源は、特定の場所（メドウ）における高次ストレンジネス現象の研究と、それを取り巻くより広範な未確認現象についての興味深い洞察を提供しています。場所の秘密保持の重要性、現象の進化する性質、記憶の信頼性の問題、そしてこれらの現象が科学、意識、そして異次元存在といったより大きな枠組みにどのように適合する可能性があるかについての憶測が主な論点です。

トレースの経験は、政府や民間伝承といった様々な側面と結びつき、この分野の複雑さと未解明な性質を強調しています。特に、スクリーンメモリー、アーキタイプとしての存在、そして現象が場所よりも人に関連している可能性についての議論は、興味深い視点を提供しています。

timeline + 主要関係者

タイムライン

1970年代後半〜1982年頃:
- インディアナポリスのメドウで、語り手（ジミー・チャーチ）と友人たちが車中でマリファナを吸っていると、濃い霧が現れる。
- 霧の中からフードを被った人物が現れ、車の運転席側の窓に近づき、「私の犬を見ませんでしたか？」と尋ねる。
- 語り手たちは恐怖に駆られ、その場から逃走する。
- 翌日、同じ場所に戻るが、何も異常はない。周囲は広大なトウモロコシ畑や大豆畑が広がるのみ。
1976年: 『Psychic Spies Behind the Iron Curtain』が出版され、ソ連のサイキック実験が米国の情報機関を警戒させる。
1980年代: Burt Stubblebine将軍が米陸軍情報保安軍団の司令官として、Project Jediを開始し、Robert MonroeのGateway ProjectやSRIと連携してリモートビューイングを研究する。
1990年代: Project StargateやGrille Flameが公式には終了されたと発表されるが、研究は継続されていると推測される。
時期不明（過去）: トレイ・ハドソンとシェイがキャンプ中に、夜中の3時頃、テントの外のトレイルを歩く人型の姿を目撃する。その姿はスカートかキルトのようなものを身につけ、何かを抱え、頭からは光線が出ていたように見えた（後述の経験者の記憶との関連性）。
2017年:
- 2月11日: トレイ・ハドソンたちがメドウで調査を開始。夜間に尾根の上からマンサイズの熱源を複数検出。
- メドウでの現象が「本当に、本当に活発になる」とトレイ・ハドソンが述べる。
- あるチームメンバーが、キャンプ adjacent の道路でライトのない車の音を聞いた後、失われた時間（missing time）を経験する。
2017年以降:
- メドウでの調査が継続される。
- トレイ・ハドソンはメドウの場所を秘密にしている。
- Blind Frog RanchがBlind Frog Ranchという番組を通じて広く知られるようになり、不法侵入者が増加する。
- Skinwalker RanchもBrandon Fugelの所有となり、警備員を配置する必要が生じる。
2年前頃（インタビュー時から見て）: ジミー・チャーチがインディアナポリスで、件のメドウでの経験を共有するために友人たちと再会する。参加者の一人であるジムは、他の4人と異なり、経験時に全員が車の外にいたと記憶していることが判明する（スクリーン記憶の可能性）。
- トレイ・ハドソンとシェイが、2017年に失われた時間を経験したチームメンバー（ボブ）に催眠療法を行う。ボブは、 Jeepと黒い影のような2人の姿が車から降りて周囲を歩き回る様子を思い出すが、催眠下でない際には音を聞いただけと記憶していた。
時期不明（過去）: 15歳の家族が自殺したとされるStardust Ranchの過去の出来事が言及される。
時期不明（最近）: メドウでのドキュメンタリーの主要撮影が11月に終了する。チームメンバー全員がNDAに署名し、運用保安計画が作成される。
時期不明（最近）: トレイ・ハドソンとシェイが率いる調査チームが、メドウのベースキャンプで撮影中にシャドウ・ピープルを撮影する。この経験は撮影監督に強い衝撃を与え、彼は二度とそこに行かないと述べる。
現在（2025年頃）:
- トレイ・ハドソンがメドウでの調査に関する2冊目の本、『Return to the Meadow』を出版する。
- トレイ・ハドソンは、今後11月にLVL（場所は不明）で調査を行う予定がある。

登場人物リスト

トレイ・ハドソン (Trey Hudson):
- 本インタビューのゲスト。
- 研究者であり、作家。
- 元軍人（米陸軍軍事情報部）。
- メドウでの「異界現象」に関する調査を主導している。
- メドウの場所を秘密にしている。
- 最初の本『The Meadow Project』と2冊目の本『Return to the Meadow』の著者。
- シェイと共に催眠療法やその他の調査手法を用いている。
ジミー・チャーチ (Jimmy Church):
- 本インタビューのホスト。
- 自身の過去の異常な経験（霧の中の人物、スクリーン記憶の可能性）について語る。
- トレイ・ハドソンの研究に関心を持つ。
- 番組「Fade to Black」のホスト。
シェイ (Shay):
- トレイ・ハドソンの兄弟。
- トレイと共にメドウでの調査チームを率いる。
- 過去のテントでの目撃経験をトレイと共有する。
- ボブへの催眠療法を実施する。
- 経験の性質について哲学的な視点を持つ。
クリスティ (Christy):
- シェイの妻（推定）。
- 「光っている」と表現される人物。
ボブ (Bob):
- メドウ調査チームのメンバー。
- 2017年にキャンプ adjacent で車の音を聞き、失われた時間を経験する。
- 催眠療法下でJeepと黒い影のような姿を記憶する。
- その後の催眠療法を受ける前に死去。
ケイティ (Katie):
- メドウ調査チームのメンバー。
- メドウの調査に参加するために遠方からRVをレンタルしてやってきた。
- ジェシカ・ジョーンズとテントを共有したことがある。
ジェシカ・ジョーンズ (Jessica Jones):
- ケイティと親しい人物。
- ケイティと共にメドウの調査に参加したことがある。
フィル・マントル (Phil Mantle):
- トレイ・ハドソンの最初の本の出版社（イギリス）。
ドウェイン (Dwayne):
- Blind Frog Ranchの所有者。
- 番組放送後に不法侵入者に悩まされている。
ブランドン・フーゲル (Brandon Fugel):
- Skinwalker Ranchの現在の所有者。
- 私設警備員を配置している。
ライアン・バーンズ (Ryan Burns):
- ユタ州ヴァーナル在住。
- Skinwalker Ranch adjacent のSpace Wolf Researchで研究を行っている。
- スキンウォーカーと思われる存在に遭遇した経験について語られる。
ジム (Jim):
- ジミー・チャーチの友人。
- インディアナポリスのメドウでの経験について、他の友人たちと異なる記憶（全員が車の外にいた）を持っている。
カーツ (Kurt):
- ジミー・チャーチの友人。
- インディアナポリスでの件の経験の再会パーティの主催者。
撮影監督 (Cinematographer):
- メドウでのドキュメンタリー撮影クルーの一員。
- ベースキャンプでシャドウ・ピープルを目撃し、それがフィルムに収められた。
- その経験に強い衝撃を受け、二度とそこに行かないと述べる。
PA (Production Assistant):
- メドウでのドキュメンタリー撮影クルーの一員。
- ベースキャンプでシャドウ・ピープルを目撃する。
ダール・グラフ (Dale Graff):
- 次回のFade to Blackのゲスト。
- Psi分野、予知夢、リモートビューイング、意識について話す予定。
バート・スタブルバイン将軍 (Burt Stubblebine):
- 元米陸軍情報保安軍団司令官。
- Psi分野の研究を推進し、Project Jediを開始した。
ジム・シャノン大佐 (Colonel Jim Shannon):
- バート・スタブルバインに協力し、Project Jediに関与した。
ロバート・モンロー (Robert Monroe):
- Gateway Projectを運営した人物。
- 米軍人がリモートビューイング訓練のために送られた。
SRI (Stanford Research Institute):
- 米軍と連携してリモートビューイングを開発した研究機関。
ロバート・ビゲロー (Robert Bigelow):
- NIDS（National Institute for Discovery Science）の創設者。
- DIAの資金援助を受けてSkinwalker Ranchで調査を行った。
- 調査データが機密扱いになったことについて語られる。
アントニ・ファン・レーウェンフック (Van Hook / Van Leeuwenhoek):
- ミクロの世界を観察できる顕微鏡を開発した人物として言及される（ジミー・チャーチはVan Hookと呼んでいる）。
ブライアン・グリーン (Brian Green):
- 次元についてアリを使った例えで説明する人物として言及される。
レッドヘアの巨人 (Redheaded Giant):
- アフガニスタン、特にカンダハル周辺で目撃されたとされる伝説上の存在。トレイ・ハドソンは自身は遭遇しなかったと述べる。

Me:

Jimmy Church が自身の、

「霧の中から現れて「私の犬を見ませんでしたか？」と尋ねた「フードをかぶった黒い服の人物」の遭遇」

という体験を語っていますが、それを詳しく説明して。現場にいた仲間のひとりの記憶が一致しなかった（彼は車の外にいたと記憶していた）という点も含めて。

ソースと会話履歴に基づき、Jimmy Church氏が語った、霧の中から現れて「私の犬を見ませんでしたか？」と尋ねた「フードをかぶった黒い服の人物」との遭遇体験について詳しく説明します。

Jimmy Church氏のこの体験は、彼が20歳頃、友人数名と共にインディアナ州のある野原（Meadow）で起こりました。

彼らがその場所を「the electric company」と呼んでいたのは、近くに変圧器があったためです。その野原は広大で、フットボール場ほどの大きさがあり、周囲はトウモロコシ畑に囲まれていました。

体験当時、彼らは6人（車の前席に3人、後席に3人）で車の中にいました。窓は閉められており、車内でくつろいでいました。その時、突然濃い霧が発生し、車のボンネットよりも先が見えなくなりました。

この状況で、霧の中から人影が現れました。その人物は黒い服を着て、頭にはフードをかぶっており、Reaper（死神）のような見た目だったと表現されています。顔は全く見えなかったとのことです。

その人物は運転席側の窓のところまでやってきて立ち止まり、Jimmy氏を見ていました。車内の皆が叫び声を上げたそうです。Jimmy氏は窓を少し（that far）だけ開け、するとその人物は身を屈めて彼に話しかけました。

**尋ねられた質問は「私の犬を見ませんでしたか？ (Have you seen my dog?)」**でした。

質問の後、Jimmy氏は窓を閉め、その人物は向きを変えて再び霧の中へと戻っていき、姿を消しました。周囲は何マイルもトウモロコシ畑が広がるだけで、家などはなく、人がいるような場所ではなかったため、どこから来たのか全く理解できなかったといいます。

この体験について、後にJimmy氏とその場にいた友人たち数名が再会し、話を共有した際、記憶に不一致があることが判明しました。

友人の中の一人であるJim氏は、他の4人が車内にいたと記憶しているのに対し、全員が車の外にいたと強く主張したそうです。他の4人は運転席に座っていたJimmy氏が窓を開けたことなどを詳細に覚えており、Jim氏以外の全員の記憶は一致していました。Jim氏がなぜそのように異なる記憶を持っているのか、Jimmy氏は戸惑いを覚えました。

Trey Hudson氏は、霧の中から現れたフードの人物について、これは「アーキタイプ（原型）」や「訪問者（visitor）」と呼ばれる現象の一部であり、しばしば高奇妙な場所や出来事に関連して現れるとコメントしています。

また、友人の記憶の不一致については、非常に奇妙な出来事に遭遇した人々に見られる「スクリーンメモリー（screen memory）」の可能性に言及しています。これは、非常に受け入れがたい、あるいはトラウマとなるような現実の代わりに、意識が作り出す、少しずれているが現実に近い記憶である可能性があるという考え方です。この特定のケースでは、車内にいたか車外にいたかという点が、潜在的な何かを覆い隠すためのスクリーンメモリーとして機能した可能性が示唆されています。

Me:

timeline にある

時期不明（過去）: トレイ・ハドソンとシェイがキャンプ中に、夜中の3時頃、テントの外のトレイルを歩く人型の姿を目撃する。その姿はスカートかキルトのようなものを身につけ、何かを抱え、頭からは光線が出ていたように見えた（後述の経験者の記憶との関連性）。

の事件について、できるだけ詳しく説明して。

提供されたソースと会話履歴に基づき、timelineにあった「時期不明（過去）: トレイ・ハドソンとシェイがキャンプ中に、夜中の3時頃、テントの外のトレイルを歩く人型の姿を目撃する」という出来事について詳しく説明します。

この体験は、トレイル・ハドソン氏が友人（ソース中では名前は挙げられていませんが、シェイ・ハドソン氏の弟であるBob氏が別のスクリーンの記憶の例で登場しており、この件では彼の友人として語られています）と共に、1990年代にメドウ（Meadow）の近くのエリアでバックパッキングをしていた時に起こりました。

彼らは、メドウと同じ水源である大きなクリークまたは小さな川の隣にあるトレイルを、おそらく1マイルほどハイキングし、クリークの土手から約15フィート離れた場所にテントを張ってキャンプしました。彼らはドームテントの中で就寝していました。

夜中の午前3時頃、トレイル氏の友人が彼を起こし、「誰かがトレイルを下ってきている」と告げました。トレイル氏が時計を確認すると、確かに午前3時でした。友人は再び「何かがトレイルを下ってきている」と強く言いました。

彼らはテントのジッパーとレインフライを開け、外に頭を出して様子を伺いました。すると、ある人影が彼らのすぐ側を通り過ぎました。その姿は直立しており、人間型でしたが、スカートかキルトのようなものを身につけており、それが少し広がっているように見えたとトレイル氏は表現しています。その人物は体の前で何かを抱えている、あるいは腕に何かを抱えているように見え、それは包みのようなものだったと描写されています。さらに奇妙なことに、その頭からは光線が投射されているように見え、それはヘッドランプのようでもあったとのことです。

その姿はテントの横をゆっくりと通り過ぎ、トレイルを進んで霧の中へと消えていったそうです。この出来事の後、トレイル氏は友人に「今見たものを話してくれ」と頼みましたが、友人は「奇妙に聞こえるだろうが、今見たものはこれだ」と言って、トレイル氏が描写した内容（人間型でスカートかキルトを身につけ、何かを抱え、頭から光線が出ていた）がトレイル氏の見たものと完全に一致したことを確認しました。

トレイル氏は、冗談交じりにその姿を「ウィッカン異教のケルト人スルーハイカー」と呼んだそうですが、それは古風で、ほとんど異教徒のような雰囲気を帯びていたと述べています。トレイル氏はこの地域のフォークロアに言及し、特に子供の肝臓を食べると言われるスピアフィンガーウィッチに触れています。スピアフィンガーウィッチはドレスのような衣服を着て、子供を腕に抱えている女性だとされており、彼らが見た姿の描写と共通点があることを示唆しています。

頭から出ていた光線について、ジミー氏は数百年前にはなかっただろうと指摘しましたが、トレイル氏はカーバイドランプのようなものは存在した可能性に言及しつつも、バッテリー駆動の現代的な光だとすれば奇妙だと述べています。スカートやキルト、そして何か（子供か枝の袋のようなもの）を抱えていたことも、この遭遇をさらに奇妙にしている点として挙げられています。

トレイル氏はこの体験について、後に「それはスクリーンの記憶だったのか？」と自問しています。彼の友人は、この体験があまりに不気味だったため、トレイル氏が最初の本を書いた際に、この出来事に関する供述書を書いてほしいと頼んだところ、書きたくないと強く断ったそうです。トレイル氏は、これは自分たちが別の現実、もしかしたら過去と繋がった場所に迷い込んでしまったのではないか、とも考えています。

ジミー氏は、このトレイル氏の体験を、自身の「霧の中から現れた人物」の体験や、別の友人が車の外にいたと記憶していたこと（他の皆は車の中にいた）など、**奇妙な出来事に遭遇した人々の記憶の不一致（スクリーンの記憶）**という現象と関連付けて議論しています。スクリーンの記憶とは、非常に受け入れがたい、あるいはトラウマとなるような現実の代わりに、意識が作り出す、少しずれているが現実に近い記憶である可能性があるという考え方です。

ただし、このトレイル氏の特定のキャンプ体験においては、友人の記憶はトレイル氏の記憶と一致しており、その「不一致」の側面は、むしろジミー氏自身の体験で友人のジム氏が示したり、別の事例で（ボブ氏が）催眠退行下でだけジープを見たことを思い出したりしたことなど、スクリーンの記憶という概念そのものの説明として関連付けられています。

トレイル氏と友人のキャンプでの遭遇は、記憶が一致しているにもかかわらず、その出来事自体が非常に奇妙で不気味であり、何かもっと奇妙な出来事（例えば別の現実に迷い込んだこと）を覆い隠すためのスクリーンの記憶として機能した可能性が示唆されています。

文字起こし

（以下は Youtube の podcast の文字起こし。Host の Jimmy Church が Trey Hudson をゲストに招いてインタビューしている。主題は正式な地名は公開されず、ただ the Meadow という仮の地名がつけられた地域で多発する不可解な現象。この文字起こしから、発言者の主観や個人的見解を排除して、事実とされている事柄を重点において整理して。）

（ここから文字起こしの開始）

How long have you been investigating the meadow? (0:15:42)

The meadow, we kind of started brushing across it in about 2016, sort of looking into the area. And we really started digging down into the meadow in about 2017. That's when we really started focusing in on the meadow specifically. You know, like we talked about before, it kind of started off as looking at a folklore, you know. And, you know, I was looking at it from the optics of a ghost guy, looking at a folklore of haunted locations, you know, in that general area. (0:16:12)

And the meadow just seemed like a good place to research after we had a really cool UFO sighting. Back at base camp and, you know, it was a big open area, big open field. We could see anything moving across it. I was researching with the late Bob Wilson, the Bigfoot researcher. And, you know, we thought this is a big open area. We can see tracks. We can see anything moving across it at night. (0:16:38)

We've got a big ridge to the south that we can look down on it. And we've got a big open expansive sky because this area has, you know, reported of UFOs, cryptids, you know, ghost type folklore and sightings. So it's kind of got all this going on. And it is really, you know, in 2017, it really, really started rocking and rolling for us. (0:16:57)

And but the cool thing is, and I go into it in the book, is it's evolving. Is the phenomena that we experienced back in 2017, 2018 is not the same experience that we that we have going on now. It's evolving. It's becoming much more personal, if you will. And, you know, one thing that I credit that to is us becoming more comfortable with the phenomena and the other, whatever the other is. (0:17:28)

And then another thing is I credit it to, you know, kind of backing up and taking it maybe a different perspective. (0:17:36)

And we've got our good friend Shea Hudson, you know, is leading us in that. And he looks at it from a transpersonal perspective. At the phenomena and, you know, since he and his wife have joined the team, we've had some strangely enough, you're talking about precognitive dreams. You know, we've had precognitive dreams, you know, out of the meadow. So it is changing. It's evolving. And, you know, as long as whatever it is keeps interacting with us, we'll continue to research. (0:18:05)

And as long as we can keep the site as pristine and as inviolate as possible. Let me let me jump in right there. In 2017, when you did the reveal of the meadow on this very program, right? I tried my best to to break you and to get the location of the meadow. You and many others. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Of course. (0:18:36)

And the decision was made back then to keep this the location. Well, secret's the right word, but not disclose the location. Right. Yeah. Has that changed? No, no. But matter of fact, I think I actually I think I briefed you on the I briefed you on the meadow location out in Laughlin, Nevada. I kept I see I keep my secrets. Yeah. So, yeah, you know where it's at. (0:19:06)

I don't know. No, we still keep it. You know, we still keep it secret. I am in communications with another production company about something totally different. And, you know, my thing, once again, is I will talk to your producers. When they sign a nondisclosure agreement, that that's a deal breaker. You know, I'm not you know, I'm not just clamoring for attention. I'm not that guy. And that's a deal breaker. (0:19:34)

And so, you know, most production companies will sign the NDA if they're serious about, you know, having any kind of interest in what we're doing. And so far, you know, knock on wood, we've been able to keep the location. Pretty much secret, you know, I mean, people have guessed the general area. And, you know, going back in my, you know, my military background in my federal civil service background is, you know, we never confirm or deny. (0:20:01)

We just just don't talk about it. Somebody just asked in the chat, where is what part of the country? I will disclose this. It's east of the Pacific Ocean. Yeah, I will tell people that it's south of the Mason-Dixon line, east of Arizona. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There you go. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's that side of the country. Yeah. Could you imagine? And, and I get that. (0:20:33)

Everybody knows where Skinwalker is. And with the, with the show like that, man, man, man. I don't know what it would like to be somebody that owns property up there. Oh, it's, you know, it's really bad. I remember, when was it? Two years ago? I think two or three years ago, I was in Utah. And I went out to a blind frog, I was invited to go out to blind frog ranch. (0:21:01)

I remember. Yeah. And, you know, went out there and. (0:21:05)

I remember seeing the holes that trespassers had come in and dug and talking to Dwayne about, you know, he's just having to fight, you know, these, these claim jumpers and trespassers. And once the site became, you know, widely known through the show, Blind Frog Ranch, that they just were inundated with, you know, trespassers. And, of course, you know, Brandon Fugel, who now owns Skinwalker Ranch, is all, you know, he has a private security force that has to maintain that site all the time. (0:21:35)

And the thing about the meadow that makes it especially vulnerable is it's on public land. Is, you know, I can't cite somebody for trespassing on public land. It's, you know, it's public land. So we try really, really hard to to keep it inviolate. As a matter of fact, the last documentary that we filmed, we finished our principal filming in November, is not only did the whole team sign nondisclosure agreements, but I wrote an operation security plan, you know, specifically outlining, you know, these are the things that we cannot discuss. (0:22:11)

These are the things you can't have in the background of any frames. You know, these are the things that may disclose the location because it's one of those special things. I have no problem sharing the experiences when I have guest researchers come out. You know, like one that we know, Katie Page, is a guest researcher that's been out to the meadow several times. (0:22:30)

The experiences that these guest researchers have, it's their experience. It's not mine. It's theirs to do with whatever they wish. All I ask is they keep the location secret. And most people agree that's a pretty fair tradeoff. Yeah, I got to get out there one day. Yeah, you do. I got to get out there. There's really no excuse. Okay, my wheels are turning. (0:22:53)

I might be able to pull that off this year sometime. Okay, yeah, we can make it happen. Yeah, yeah. Now, I will warn you, it is very remote. The team we had out in November, it's like, we don't even have cell signals out here. I'm like, guys, I told you it was remote. It's like really, really remote. All I require is a sauna, rain shower, granite countertops, and a bidet. (0:23:21)

So, if you've got all of that out there, then I'm cool. Well, we have a creek. And I could probably run up a 12-volt pump and get... What did Katie do? Katie's a trooper. She is a trooper. She flew into whatever the airport that's the closest to it. And there's some thing where you can rent RVs, you know. So, she rented like a... I think it was like a Honda... Whatever their little pickup truck thing is. (0:23:51)

Some little pickup truck thing. And it had a tent up on top that folded out and all. So, she swung by the store and bought... Oh, man, that rocks. So, she pulled up and popped out her little tent. (0:24:03)

And, you know... So, yeah, she's done that twice. And the second time, I don't know if you know Jessica Jones. Of course. Yeah, she hung out with Jessica Jones. They shared a tent. So, you know, she and Jessica are pretty close. You know what I want to get? And I've been shopping for a couple of years. And I'm about ready to just quit messing around and just do this. (0:24:24)

I want to get one of the small teardrop campers. You know what I'm talking about? The small teardrop trailer. What I did is, you know, going all the way back to being a young army officer, sleeping in ditches at Fort Benning and places like that, you know, to living in very austere circumstances, researching the meadow. I just finally, you know, when I hit 60 years old, I'm like, you know what? (0:24:50)

I'm tired of this. And so, I went out and bought a 20-foot camper. So, it's small enough with no pop-outs. It's real compact. I can back it into tight areas. And, you know, I set up my solar panels. So, I kind of live in luxury now. It was kind of sad. The film crew in November, they were sleeping in tents. We had a bad thunderstorm come through. (0:25:13)

They were flooded. Their tents were hanging out. It looked like a hobo camp. And you're sitting in there with your espresso. Yeah. Yeah. Like Daddy Warbuck, you know, looking at the peasants out there. Yeah, a couple of Cuban cigars. I sailed, man. It looks a wee bit soggy out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get that. I do want to get a teardrop, though. (0:25:34)

Yeah, they are nice. You know, I have a Jeep. So, I have the ability to... I can drive. So, I need a trailer that's small enough. But you can get those teardrops with off-road tires and shocks and stuff. And so, I can go and do the things that we're talking about here. And just not even think about it. It's just like, okay, man, I'll see you this weekend. (0:26:00)

And just go do it. Yeah, that's a cool thing. Because I have my equipment and my gear and everything in my camp. I just back my truck up to it, drop it on the hitch, and off I go. Right, right. We're going to be doing some work out in the LVL, hopefully in November. So, you know, I'm trying to get it all geared up, ready for that. (0:26:16)

So, yeah. I would. I would. Now, let's talk about the book for a second. And why the need to write the book now? What was so important to you? You know, it was nothing compelling, you know, that forced me to write the book. But I just felt like it was the right time. You know, I had a lot of people, you know, contact me saying, when is the second book coming out? (0:26:45)

When is the second book coming out? (0:26:46)

When is the second book coming out? And at that time, my publisher was Phil Mantle, you know, from the UK. And he's like, you know, mate, when's the second? I can't do Phil Mantle. Anyway, you know, when's the second book coming out? And I hate to admit this about I'm a lazy writer. You know, I'm slow. And so I've been pecking away with this second book for a few years. (0:27:08)

And so I just finally got to the point where I was just tired of, you know, fighting with it. And I just really knuckled down and I wrote it. And it's it's kind of neat the way I broke it down. It's in three parts. The first part is called congruences. And I talk about and I'm looking at my notes here because I don't want to forget anything. (0:27:28)

Is I talk about places that are similar to the meadow, you know, here in the continental United States. And I have a chapter on the Bradshaw Ranch, you know, which is pretty well known. Marley Woods, Stardust Ranch. And then, of course, Katie's Clearview Ranch. And I had a chance to go out to Clearview Ranch with Katie last year. So and I talk about... Did you ever go to Stardust? (0:27:55)

I have not been to Stardust. It's been sold now. Yeah, that's in my chapter. I actually had the real estate listing in it where it's been sold. And from what I hear is the people that bought it have not had any strange experiences. Heard the same thing. Yeah, I heard the same thing. Anyway, so back to Katie. Yeah, back. (0:28:20)

So anyway, you know, you know, we visited the Clearview Ranch with Katie. So there's a picture of me standing jauntily on the cistern cap, you know, there at the Clearview Ranch. So anyway, I look at these different sites and it's like, OK, how are these similar? You know, what kind of phenomena do we see across the site? So I take those four sites. (0:28:36)

I do an in-depth, in-depth review of all the sites and then look at, you know, some common common factors. And what I found was, let me pull up my table here, is I looked at, of course, Marley Woods, Colorado Ranch, Bradshaw, Stardust and the Meadow. And then I looked at UFOs, entities or aliens, sounds and or voices, moving objects, Bigfoot or Dogman, cubes or boxes, missing time and animal mutilations. (0:29:03)

And the thing that's the most common is UFOs and orbs. All five of these sites have UFOs and orbs. And three of the sites or two of the sites have cubes or boxes. Really? Yep. And entities or aliens were at four of the five. So, you know, you start seeing some common things that are happening now. Something I've started doing and it was this was recommended to me by another researchers is actually using AI to really drill down into real specifics on it. (0:29:35)

So another thing is radiation. (0:29:37)

You know, some of these sites have radiation, either of the ionizing or non-ionizing type. So, you know, what I'm hoping is if we can really start sharing data among the researchers in the sites, not only can we get a better picture of what these sites are, maybe we can come up with a predictive model of if we have these indicators, then we think this is going to happen. (0:29:59)

You know, if you have a radiation spike, then it could be followed by an orb. Or if you have, you know, disembodied voices, then you your odds of seeing a dog man or an entity. I don't want to know that. No, no, no. I don't want to know that stuff. Oh, come on, man. Come on, man. Trey, Trey, Trey, Trey, I love a good surprise, number one. (0:30:23)

And I love the unpredictable. That's number two. But number three, I don't need a precursor to dog man walking up on my ass. I don't need that. I'll be freaked out all night long. OK, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you my meadow story. This is really brief, but I want you to correlate this with your research. OK, I'm 20 years old. I'm sitting in Indianapolis in a meadow where me and my friends went to go drink and smoke weed. (0:30:59)

OK, it was off the street, a dirt road up behind these trees. And it was this clear meadow surrounded by cornfields with electrical transformers. We called it the electric company for that reason. But anyway, this big, probably the size of a football field, open, right? OK. Surrounded by cornfields. And we're out there drinking. It was like six of us, three in the front seat, three in the back seat. (0:31:24)

Windows rolled up. We're in there smoking weed. And this fog rolled in and we couldn't see past the hood of the car. So we know what's in front of us, right? It's a big, open, square football field-sized grass field, meadow surrounded by cornfields. But now this fog had rolled in and surrounded the car. I'm sitting in the driver's seat and this is what happens. (0:31:55)

And I have witnesses. They've been on the show. They've been on Fade to Black. This dude comes out. Now we're surrounded by miles of cornfields. OK, no houses. There's nothing there. Out from in front of us, as a matter of fact, behind where this guy walked out of the fog, the next stop is like Greenfield, Indiana, which is 40 miles away. OK, it's like that, cornfields. OK, so there's nothing there. (0:32:26)

Anyway, he comes out of the fog and he's dressed in black. He's got a hood over his head. He comes up to my driver's window and stands there and he's looking at me and everybody's screaming in the car. I think I screamed too. And I rolled down the window about that far and he leans down and he says, Have you seen my dog? (0:32:52)

And we roll up the window. And what do you say? (0:32:59)

I'm freaked out. And he turns around and walks back into the fog and disappears. I never saw his face. He had a hood like the Grim Reaper. Yeah, that's that's that's really kind of cool, because what you're talking about is an archetype. You know, and in many, many, many cases of high strangeness, you know, be they locations or right. You have you have figures in hoods appearing out of nowhere. (0:33:30)

And that's why almost in our primal guts, fog bothers us. You know, we don't like it because it obscures our vision. And the man in black or the the the the shadow person, the hat man, Indrid Cold. All of these are archetypes of the visitor. OK, and the visitor will come and sometimes will ask you an innocuous question. And you can go all the way back to the the ferryman that ferried souls across the sticks would ask the people a question. And so, you know, we have to wonder, is that a manifestation of us? (0:34:19)

Creating a thought form that we interact with? Your id, yeah. Yes, absolutely. And and so why is this this figure, you know, Christa Berg back in the 80s, sang a song about it called, you know, don't pay the ferryman till you reach the other side. And it was talking about taking the souls across the river sticks. Don't pick up a hitchhiker. Don't pick up a hitchhiker, you know. (0:34:47)

And so now you take that and then you spin it forward and you go and you talk, talk to Ryan Burns, you out there in Vernal, Utah, and he talks about his experience with the skinwalker, which he thought was a bunch of clothes laying on the road. And Ryan, if I'm, you know, mess this story up, forgive me, that stands up and it's a person. (0:35:11)

And it's and he interpreted that as a skinwalker. So you have the skinwalker, you know, out in the, you know, the Utah area. You have other, you know, mythology in the Four Corners area, you know, further south. And then, you know, here in the southeast, you have the the Raven Mocker. You have the the Spearfinger Witch. You have these entities that will either consume somebody physically, i.e. eat them like the Spearfinger would eat the liver of children or would consume their souls. (0:35:45)

So it's interesting that, you know, have you seen my dog? OK, now that's also interesting, because now what we're seeing is people that have cases of high strangeness. We've had it at the meadow. If you read the book, Noam Keller talks about it in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon. Having canine creatures appear after encounters with high strangeness. Marley Woods canines were reported. I had huge canine tracks like six inches wide appear 40 meters from where I'm sitting right now one morning. (0:36:24)

And, you know, these other canines that are somehow associated with high strangeness. So you have a figure coming out of the fog asking you a question. (0:36:35)

And that question had to do with canines. It was crazy. And the next day and now that was 40 years ago, 45. That was 1980, 81, 82 when that happened. This is 2025. And but the next day we went out there during the day, me and the same group of friends. And we parked and I'm telling you, stood there at high noon. Right. With the clear blue sky. And I've got this view. (0:37:07)

I mean, this is my neighborhood. I know where I'm at. Right. But there is nothing there forever. On all sides. What is this? So you start to eliminate a few because I just remember going, OK, what? Where did he come from? And then what? But maybe he wasn't human. Right. Right. And to go from the direction that he came in, which was from the east. (0:37:45)

There is back then. Now it's different. You know, it's 40 years ago. It's built up. But back then that was that was corn and soybean fields. You know, I don't know, 100, 200, 300,000 acres of it. I don't know. Endless. And there was just nothing there. So the it was it some lost soul looking for his dog? It could be. Or let me let me throw a weird twist on this. (0:38:17)

You said that he was somewhere where he shouldn't have been. You wouldn't expect him to be. What if the inverse is true? What if you were somewhere you weren't supposed to be? Maybe what if you what if you popped into his world? Yeah. And he's like, why is this car sitting here? You know, in the middle of my, you know, my farm? Yeah. You know, with these kids. (0:38:40)

That's why I don't need you with your gear hanging out with me at night. I know that's the part, you know, what it what if we were the ghosts? What do you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's that's very possible. You know, what if what if next week, you know, you're walking down the street and you see somebody, a man comes up to you. (0:39:03)

Have you seen my dog? And it was actually you quantumly entangled with him in the past. But but in the present time, I'll tell you another twist to this. I want your opinion on this. So everybody that was in the car minus one person, but everybody that was there, we had like five of us. We all got together like two years ago for a party in Indianapolis. And we're at my friend Kurt's house who was there. (0:39:34)

And we all start telling the story because now they're all married and their wives have heard the story maybe from but but never with all of us together. Right. And so we're all telling the story. And it was great. It was awesome to tell the story. And everybody's kind of freaking out and and things. But one of the five, his name is Jim. He remembered it differently. (0:40:00)

He insisted we were all outside of the car when he walked up. (0:40:09)

And the other four of us, we were not. We were in the car. I was behind the driver's wheel. I rolled down the window. He said none of that happened. Everybody else remembers it differently. And he was, dude, he stood his ground. What do you make of that? Like an alternative memory? Screen memory. Yeah. OK. A lot of times, you know, and you can read in the literature, people that have encounters with something very strange. (0:40:43)

You know, something highly unusual is whatever they're encountering. We'll put a memory in front of them that seems off. It's not right. It seems weird. But it's just right on the edge of plausibility. And something about that memory is very uncanny. And I'll give you an example that happened to me. And it happened near the meadow is years ago. And I'm talking back in the 90s before we even researching this area. (0:41:15)

A friend of mine, he and I were backpacking in that area. And we had stopped to set up camp. And what happened is his wife drove us, dropped us off the trailhead. And I'm sorry, we went and dropped our vehicles off where we were going to stop our our backpacking trip. And she drove us back and dropped us off of the trailhead. So we'd have our vehicles when we got done. (0:41:38)

And so she dropped us off. And usually the way we did this, we would we were working. So we would hike. And this guy's an engineer, you know, very sharp, very smart guy. Is we would get in on Friday and we would hike, you know, maybe two or three miles up into the woods. And we would set up camp Friday afternoon and just kind of relax, kind of assimilate ourselves to the environment. (0:42:01)

Get up early Saturday, hit it hard, you know, do about 10 or 15 miles on Saturday. Wrap it up with about three miles on Sunday, get in the car and come home. So she drops us off and we loaded up all of our gear, put our backpack on and we hiked up the trail probably about maybe a mile. And it was the trail was next to a large, large creek or small river, which happens to be the creek or river that runs past the meadows, same body of water. (0:42:28)

And there was probably about 15 feet between the edge of the trail in the bank of the creek. So we decided that's a good place to set up. You know, we can relax, cook our meals, you know, talk a little bit, go to sleep, get up early the next day. So we do all that, we go to sleep and about 3 a.m. he wakes me up and we're in a dome tent. (0:42:52)

So, you know, we're all zipped up and sealed up in the tent. He goes, Trey, somebody's coming down the trail. And I looked at my watch, I'm like, it's frigging 3 a.m. He goes, something's coming down the trail. (0:43:06)

So we unzipped the tent and we unzipped the rain fly and we poke our heads out. So you have two little heads poking out. Are you armed? Tell me you're armed. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I mean, yeah. Yeah. OK. And so, you know, we look out in this figure passes us. Oh, it walks off into the mist. And so upright, upright, upright. (0:43:30)

And so we we kind of look at each other. We go back in the tent, we sit down. And he goes, Trey, tell me what you just saw. I said, well, this is going to sound weird. You know, it always is going to be good when somebody says this sound is going to sound weird. But this is what I saw. It was a figure. That was humanoid, but it looked like it was wearing a skirt or a kilt. (0:43:55)

What sort of flared, you know, something or other carrying something in it, in front of it like a bundle. And projected out of its head was a beam that could have been a headlamp. There was a beam coming out of its head. And it slowly went past the tent. And went up the trail. Did he see the same thing? And he said, that's weird because that's exactly what I saw. (0:44:22)

OK, and it turns out that that the exact place that happened. Was probably only 300 yards from the place where Katie had her traveling companions hood pulled by an unseen force when she was out at the meadow researching with us. Also, one of the places we call the field of nightmares, you know, where we've had some strange stuff, not the meadow, but probably about a mile from the meadow. (0:44:47)

So, you know, we always look back at that and said, is that a screen memory? When I was writing the first book, I asked him to write me like a statement of what he recalled. And he said, I would prefer not to. I would prefer not to. Because it was so uncanny. Now, fast forward. Wait, wait, wait, no, no, there's no fast forward. (0:45:10)

Back up. Did it look aged? I mean, vintage. Did it look... When you say kilt or skirt, now I'm thinking Monty Python. Jokingly, what we called it was the Wiccan pagan Celtic through hiker. Did it have that vibe to it? Yeah, it did. It had like an old, almost like a pagan vibe to it. And the weird thing about it, it was carrying something in its arms. (0:45:45)

Yeah. Okay, but then you go back and you look at the folklore of that area. What did I talk about just a few minutes before? The spear finger witch, which would eat the livers of children. Which is a female wearing a dress or some sort of dress like garment, carrying a child in her arms. Right. Late at night. So, you know, it makes you wonder. (0:46:07)

Now, was that a screen memory? (0:46:08)

Did we somehow drop into another reality that maybe was linked to the past? The headlamp is curious. Yeah. And I mean, headlamps were, they weren't really in big, big use like they are now. But I mean, you know, I had at that time, I had a headlamp. You know, people had them. No, what I'm suggesting here is if a headlamp wouldn't have been around hundreds of years ago. (0:46:33)

I think they had them with candles. They did. They had carbide lamps. Yeah. I mean, they did have carbide lamps. Yeah. So, but anything else that would be battery powered or something more modern, that puts an interesting spin on it. The kilt puts a spin on it. Or was it a dress and was it female? Right. With a child or a bag of sticks, which would make it even crazier. (0:46:59)

Wow. Yeah. We always wondered, is that a screen memory? Did something much stranger happen to us? And that's a memory that was kind of put in front of us. And I've talked to other people like up in North Georgia that remember having a memory of a barefoot runner run past their camp in the middle of nowhere. And so, you know, your normalcy bias kicks in. (0:47:30)

It's like, oh, well, that must be like a barefoot trail runner, like in the middle of nowhere. You know, well, that must have been just somebody hiking and they decided to carry their backpack in the most unreasonable form possible. You're carrying it with your arms and while wearing something very impractical like a kilt or a skirt. You know, who knows? So, OK, you've got me thinking back to my experience, and I want this to reflect back to everybody listening to the show. (0:48:00)

Think about your own personal experiences that are similar. Could our experience have been a screen memory? Yeah. Yeah. And you go and you like you read, you know, various accounts like one of the best is Whitley Striever. You know, he talks about in communion that he remembers seeing a and I actually quoted in my book. I'm trying to remember how he describes it. It's almost like a robot wind up toy kind of figure, like with a card on the front of it. (0:48:35)

Very strange. You know, not like what we would think an alien would look like. But that's how he interpreted it. Now, fast forward is we had a case during covid. The campsite we usually stayed at was closed by the whatever organization runs this public land closed down that particular campsite. So we had to go find a dispersed camping somewhere else. So we stayed about three miles from the meadow, you know, up the road from it. (0:49:05)

And we were we had gone down to the meadow. We were doing a C5 session in the meadow, which had some very unexpected results, you know, totally out of left field on that. But we had a person left in camp to monitor camp. (0:49:22)

And he said that he was in camp and he heard the distinctive sound of a vehicle driving down the road adjacent to this campsite. Now, the campsite was about 40 yards from the road, so it was back off a ways. And he heard that distinctive gravel crunch and he heard that sound go by. Stop. And then continue on, but he saw no lights. (0:49:46)

I remember this story. Yeah, I remember you telling me about this. So we have since done we have since done tests where we'll take our vehicles, we'll equip them with infrared headlights and we will drive with night vision. Now, you can do it completely blacked out, but you've got to have like a three thousand dollar set of night vision and special infrared headlamps on your vehicle in order to do it. (0:50:10)

So the odds of most normal people, not us, we're not normal, but most normal people having those capabilities pretty remote. So what we decided to do is Shay and I decided to do a hypnotic regression with this individual. Because that sounded like a screen memory. It's his brother, Shay. Brother Shay. And this is where it gets weird. If it's not weird enough already, we do a hypnotic regression with this guy. (0:50:37)

And what he recalls, I remember when he recounted it at the time, he said he couldn't see anything. It was dark. All he did was hear something. Now, under hypnosis, what he says is he saw a Jeep. OK. And that Jeep had in it two figures that were completely black like shadows. They stop, the shadows get out, they walk around the Jeep a little bit, they get in and they leave. (0:51:10)

Now, the shadows are very telling because that goes back to the archetype that you just talked about, you know, like the shadow coming out of the mist. The Jeep is interesting because he was so hung up on that screen memory, or what I think is a screen memory, that he remembers telling us it sounded like a Jeep driving down a gravel road. And so he remembers it as a Jeep, but he never saw it. (0:51:37)

And he also had some missing time back from 2017 that Shay and I were not able to get through that missing time block. You know, all he got is that I, I remember nothing. And unfortunately, this individual died before we were able to do any subsequent hypnotic regression. But, you know, it's once again, it's that seems seems like a screen memory. That's very hard to get through. (0:52:01)

So I wonder if that wasn't something that y'all experienced, because if you people that have and I talk about this in my book, do I look at the Betty and Barney Hill case is they came to staying outside the car. You have one person that remembers y'all being outside of the car. Yet some of you remember being inside of the car. The Devil's Den incident, you know, talks about memories. (0:52:28)

You know, I remember being in the tent. (0:52:29)

You know, I remember being out of the tent. People recount different phases of the experience. So I always wondered, you know, what would happen if you reviewed some of this stuff under hypnotic regression? So I know a guy that we can hypnotically regress you if you really want to know what happened. The idea. All right. I just watched again. I'm just going to admit it. (0:52:59)

I've been just just two seasons over the weekend. I watched People of Earth again. I love that series. It's funny. It's great. And and if you haven't seen it, it's a comedy series. It's about a UFO experiencer group, abductees. And they get together at this church and share their experiences. And one of the things that happens throughout... it's a comedy series, too. It's so funny. (0:53:24)

But they get the little details about our community right. All right. Don't call us abductees. That's offensive. We are experiencers. So anyway. The screen memories that everybody has in this group are hitting deer. Yeah. Hitting deer. And they go through the whole explanation of what a screen memory is. The writers of this show... again, it's a comedy show. It's a comedy. But they get those kind of details right. (0:54:01)

And a really good explanation about what a screen memory is. And in the case there, it was a deer. Now, so what if we did have a screen memory? Or anybody else that has an experience like this that, you know, it's possible of a screen memory. What is it? What's the reality that's being blocked? That's the crazy part. You know, that's the crazy thing. (0:54:29)

You know, the whole experiencer abduction phenomena. I just don't know what to make of that. You know, it seems to be a real phenomena. You know, enough people have these common experiences and memories and can recall certain events that seem to match up with other people in different parts of the world. I don't know. What's behind the screen? You know, that's why we call it a screen memory. (0:55:01)

Could it be a natural PTSD response that your mind is trying to block out something horrifying? That's something that a lot of people that suffered from abuse is they will put up some sort of memory in front of it that's not nearly as horrifying. You know, is it a psychological or physiological response to trauma? Is it something that's manufactured? You know, it's interesting that a lot of people have the same memories, you know, blocking, you know, whatever happened, like the deer, you know, in your TV show. (0:55:36)

But one of the ones that's really common are owls. Give a hoot, don't pollute. You know, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll or Tootsie Pop? You know, Mr. Owl there is very strange. So that seems to be a common memory. So it's one of those things where sometimes maybe the truth is best left hidden. (0:55:58)

You know, do we really want to know? (0:56:00)

And we had one of our team members that had some unique experiences and she went through hypnotic regression. And her stuff sounds an awful lot like what has been described as an abduction. I mean, almost textbook. Yeah, it's very interesting. And I want everybody listening to this to just consider some crazy event in your past and just think about it a little bit. (0:56:30)

Because what I'm presenting to everyone and to Trey is a ghost story that friends share with each other. That's the way we look at it. Sure. Right? And it sounds crazy. It happened. Was it a ghost? Was it not a ghost? Was this? Was that? Was it some escaped lunatic from... The only thing we didn't have was the hook on the car. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:56:55)

That's it. But it really happened. Now, for me, and especially going back on location and looking at the area there, it doesn't fit what some skeptic or some debunker would say. It was a guy out looking for his lost dog. That's all it was. If it really happened, that's all it was. It wasn't a ghost. It wasn't paranormal. It wasn't supernatural. It wasn't anything. (0:57:22)

That is the one thing it was not. All right? Now, it doesn't make any sense. Now, unless... Could it be a screen memory of something else? I'm okay with that. It kind of freaks me out a little bit. I mean, you know, were we all abducted? Was it some MyLabs experiment? I don't know, man. I don't know. It was really strange. And watching... We had like 15 of our friends together two years ago. (0:57:56)

We had our reunion and we were able to share this story. And watching everybody else's faces reacting to this, it's pretty crazy. The story itself is pretty crazy. It's got everything but black triangles. You know, it was like... As far as you know. I know, right? Oh, man. And I can still... The voice. And I'm saying it correctly. Have you seen my dog? (0:58:28)

Just like that. Just like that. What did he say? I'm rolling up the window. Have we seen his dog? Everybody screams again. Forget the dog. Let's get out of here. We did. We did. We did. We did. But yeah, screen memories. So, out at the meadow... Oh, I wanted to ask you this really quick before we head to the break. The Jeep. Yeah, time flies. (0:58:57)

By the way, Shea and Christy... The lights are on. They glow. Those two. Oh, yeah. They glow. They're probably listening right now. And I love those two. They glow. The lights. They're just... They're so... Did Shea say what year... What was the vintage of the Jeep? Was it old? Was it new? No. I mean, we recorded it. I've got the transcript in the book verbatim. (0:59:31)

He didn't say... Bob, who was being regressed, did not say the year of the Jeep. He just said a Jeep. Now, he was a Jeep guy from way back in the 70s. So, you know, he probably was referring to an older Jeep. That's kind of in his mind. (0:59:51)

I think... I think talking to him, he might have said it was an old Jeep like he had back in the 70s, which would have been like a CJ7, maybe. But the weird thing is, is when he recounts it, you know, not under hypnosis, he never saw anything. All he did was hear it. But under hypnosis, he recalls a Jeep, which makes no sense at all. (1:00:14)

So it sounds like another layer of the screen memory. Except Jeeps have a sound. Yeah. They do. They have a sound. And depending on the vintage, you know what engine it's got. You know what kind of... it's got a certain sound. The wheelbase makes it sound... it's just got a very unique thing to it. And especially if it's a stick. Yeah, I'm not a Jeep guy, but yeah, I can imagine. (1:00:40)

Yeah, they have a very unique sound.

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Fade to Black. I am your host, Jimmy Church. Tonight, Trey Hudson is with us. Author and researcher. Ex-military as well. And we're talking about his research of high strangeness out at the Meadow. So let's get straight back to it. (1:05:21)

Trey, with locations like the Meadow, is it location-specific, the high strangeness? Yeah, that's a great question. I'm kind of on the fence about that. I think that there are places that are uniquely strange. And you can often dig into folklore and find out that there are places that are haunted or sacred. Like Glastonbury Tor in England. Way back in history, it was always a sacred space. (1:06:00)

Stonehenge out on the Salisbury Plain has always been a sacred space. Here in the United States, you have certain places that have always been a sacred space. You also go back into folklore. And I know probably in your community, just like in my community, there are places that have a negative aura about them. People talk about, don't go there. Or you have places where there have been multiple killings or tragic events. (1:06:29)

The public land holding that the Meadow is in, two years ago had a cult murder. You know, there was a cult camping out in there that murdered somebody. So, I mean, you know, these areas sometimes have a very negative reputation. So, you know, I think that there are places that are very special and maybe, you know, at the risk of sounding hyperbolic. The veil is thin. (1:06:57)

You know that. And there are factors, radiation seems to be a factor, tiny radiation spikes, geomagnetic anomalies, quartz. You've always heard about that. I know we have big balls of quartz, you know, laying on the ground out at the Meadow. Running water, you know, seems to be another thing that's common. But you take people that are tuned in and dialed in. And then you put them in a place like that. (1:07:23)

And then if you start doing things that are supercharging the individuals in the phenomena, you're doing things like the Estes protocol. You're doing things like guided thought experiments. Or you're doing things with technology. Like the God Helmet. Priming the pump for phenomena to happen. And I think you can take this witch's brew of different preparatory things with the right people at the right place at the right time with the right techniques and the right equipment. (1:07:55)

And you can really make things rock and roll. And I think that's what we have at the Meadow. And I think the really cool thing is if people start really researching the area around them, wherever they're sitting right now, and start looking at the folklore, start looking at some of the databases like the National UFO Reporting Center, MUFON, Bigfoot Research Organizations. And they start looking for these clusters of high strangeness. (1:08:17)

There might be one of these places within five miles of where they're sitting right now. (1:08:22)

You just have to do the research. And then you have to be bold enough to come up with a plan and go out there and research it for yourself. Now, yeah, I have to say that that's not without a certain degree of danger. There has been a pretty strong correlation between high strangeness and negative health effects. So, you know, people need to understand what they're getting into. (1:08:43)

But, you know, I think these things are a lot more common than people think. I think a lot of times people are uncomfortable stepping outside of their box, you know, under what their box is, what they consider normal. And, you know, I think there are a lot more of these out there. Well, and then there's another thing to consider here, which is the obvious. (1:09:05)

What about the neighbors at Skinwalker Ranch? Are they having crazy shit go down on their property and the properties adjacent to the meadow? The prop now, well, it seems that all of Sedona is crazy town and it's not limited to just the Bradshaw Ranch. I've experienced a lot of stuff out there in Sedona. It's pretty incredible. But you don't hear about it in Flagstaff, right? (1:09:36)

You have the Phoenix Lights and Stardust Ranch is also, you know, south in Phoenix. But you have the areas right around Sedona. You know what I mean? It's like concentrated right there. The meadow and other locations, Blind Frog Ranch is another example, which is also very close to Skinwalker too as well. Right. And then Space Wolf Research is right there adjacent to Skinwalker Ranch, which, you know, Ryan has had plenty of weird things going on out there. (1:10:12)

So, you know, I think that there are areas that, you know, are sometimes maybe broader and then some that are really, really tight. You know, like the Stardust Ranch seemed to be very tight. Now, everybody talked about strange things going on at that location. You know, the supposed suicide of a 15 year old family member before it was bought. You know, and it being used as a house of prostitution and it being owned by a motorcycle gang and all this weird stuff about the Stardust Ranch property itself. (1:10:44)

So, you know, maybe like it made people uneasy, the property itself. But as far as the adjacent properties, you know, I haven't heard of anything particularly strange. Now, the meadow, you go out a few miles from the meadow, there's a place we have that we we call Stevens Lake. That's not the name of it, but it's a name we use is we've been out there. (1:11:06)

We've had UFO sightings out there. The the area where the the strange screen memory with the Jeep and the figures in black. That's probably about three or four miles from the meadow. You know, that was a base camp. And the really cool thing is we don't even necessarily even have to go out to the meadow anymore. (1:11:24)

Shadow people appear at base camp and to make it even cooler is back about a year and a half ago. I had another film crew out there that was filming, not a documentary about the meadow, but they were looking at the meadow as an example of high strangeness. And I was doing I was doing an Estes session with the director. So it was a director, myself, Matt Delph, who's a Bigfoot researcher from Virginia, was there. (1:11:54)

And then we had the cinematographer and the production assistant. And they're filming the Estes session with the director who's blindfolded and has earbuds on and everything. And they saw the cinematographer and PA saw shadow figures around us and it was captured on film. Which, you know, that's pretty remarkable that we actually captured that on film. That was a base camp. That was just sitting around the fire. (1:12:20)

So what do you when when you describe this, because I've experienced the same thing. Right. And I. I try to, in a logical sense, try to figure out what what what is this? What what's ultimately going on? I'm going to ask you the same thing when you describe a shadow figure. It's an infinite realm of possibilities. Yeah. But what do you what do you have you come to any conclusions about what you are seeing, what they are? (1:13:02)

You know, I'll be honest. As far as all of this phenomenon goes, not only do I not have the answers, I don't even know the right questions to ask. So, you know, anybody that tells you they know what's going on, they're probably not being honest with themselves or with you. You know, shadow figures, you know, some people believe that that's where the dimensions are thinning and we're seeing. (1:13:22)

You know, maybe a diminished dimensional representation of something that's multidimensional as it bleeds into our dimension and we're just seeing like glimpses of it. You know, many people in the the paranormal world talk about seeing shadow people out of their peripheral vision. Few folks, researchers have actually been able to film it. The one that we captured on film is the director and I were sitting in front of the camera. (1:13:50)

We had the external lights shining on us. So we were illuminated. And behind us on a stump, you see a shadow pass between the back of our chairs in the stump. But there was nobody. There was nobody behind us. And there was nobody passing in front of the, you know, the studio lights that were set up. So where did this shadow come from? What was casting this shadow? (1:14:14)

And it ties in exactly with what the production assistant and the cinematographer saw and described, you know, later on to the director. And it shook up the cinematographer so bad at the screening of this film. He was telling the crowd that, you know, it shook him up so bad he refuses to ever go back there. (1:14:34)

He said, I will never go back there because it bothered me so much. So, you know, now that you have stuff popping off at base camp. So now, you know, you really have to start wondering, does it have more to do with the people than the location? You know, is there something about a group, a synergistic, you know, gestalt of people being of the right mind? (1:15:00)

You know, with the right focus actually causing either whatever the phenomena is to manifest or are we manifesting the phenomena ourselves? And that's something that we're now starting to do as we go through guided meditation, you know, before we go out on an expedition. And we, you know, all start having the same thoughts. You know, we think about things quietly. And I saw where Shay and Christy are watching this. And, you know, they guide us through, you know, thought exercises. (1:15:34)

You know, and Shay will say, imagine, you know, a whiteboard, you know, and something is written on it. You know, just focus on what's written and remember it. And then when we all come back and we're talking, what did you see? We'll see, we'll all talk about, we all saw the same thing. We're all communicating without communicating. So when you start getting energy like that, a focus like that, it would almost be unusual if something didn't happen. (1:16:02)

Wouldn't it be great, it'd be freaky too as well, but wouldn't it be great if science comes forward with an explanation of a parallel interdimensional existence that is around us and it is coming into focus and into frequency from time to time? And we are seeing the life that is in that other world that's around us all the time. And then suddenly some of the explanations are resolved for ghosts, for entities, for skinwalkers, for UFOs, for orbs. (1:16:51)

You know what I mean? And all of these cryptids, you know, Bigfoot, right? And it would probably freak out a lot of people, but it would also, all right, I'm just going to say it, the people that are experiencing these things can step back and go, see, I'm not crazy. Right. You know, and that's, and forgive me if I'm wrong on my history, but the first magnifying glass that was actually capable of seeing microbes, I think it was Van Hook, I think was... Yeah, Van Hook, Van, Van, Van Hook. Van Hook. Yes. Developed the lenses that could actually see microbes. And now people are like, there are these living things all over us and all over everything we touch. (1:17:46)

We never knew that before because we didn't have the technology to detect it. So here we are sitting up, you know, all bold in 2025 thinking we're all that, you know, we've got, you know, rudimentary, you know, we can ask Gronk a question and, you know, it can answer us. And, you know, we're just so damn freaking smart. Yeah. What else is going on? You know, so if we can detect living things at the microscopic level, what about the macroscopic level? What about the macroscopic level? Paradimensionally? (1:18:15)

The universe and the rest of the universe. (1:18:18)

Right. Sure. So I, you know, and we can perceive such a narrow frequency with our five senses, and then we can expand that a bit with technology. You know, we have, we can see in the infrared and ultraviolet, and then we can detect radio waves and radiation and all this with our equipment. But we're still limited. So, you know, you start thinking about this, you know, maybe quantum things, spooky action at a distance, you know, massive bodies bending space time into other dimensions. (1:18:48)

What if this is actually happening at a macro level? What if that was what we were experiencing out at the meadow is we're seeing multiple realities existing at the same time. Can we handle that? In the same place. Can we handle that? I can. I was, well, I know I could, I could too, I think. I don't know. I don't know. But, uh, I was watching this, uh, comedy, uh, last week, comedy series. (1:19:13)

And there was a scene in this and it explains exactly what we're talking about. It was hilarious. Guy says to his friend, well, you know, you've got mites, millions of them living in your eyebrows, keeping the oil. Out of your eyelids, feasting on the oil of your skin all day. And dude loses his mind. The next day he shows up at his house with his eyebrows shaved. (1:19:47)

Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't handle that. Well, you know, you can't see it. Right. And then suddenly you're exposed to that reality. And your mind, uh, sometimes just can't handle these things. And that's, and that's what I'm talking about. Could we handle that kind of reality? I think maybe, and I'm going to go back a little bit is previously I'm talking about pre, uh, industrial revolution is most people had a belief system. (1:20:20)

Okay. Be it a religious belief system or some belief system. And part of that belief system almost universally accepted something else greater than us. You know, something existed out there that we can't touch or feel, but nevertheless, it's there, you know, call it God, call it karma, whatever, you know, your belief system is. And that was very common. And that helped people cope with some of this stuff. (1:20:48)

Also, we had a folkloric system where things like the Fae, you know, uh, I'm of Celtic descent, you know, uh, you know, from great Britain. My family is, is you talked about the Fae, the willow of the wisp, the jack-o'-lantern, you know, those were very common. Those, those were reality, you know, you'll keep a piece of iron, you know, in the, in your, your baby's crib. (1:21:12)

So the Fae wouldn't steal them. You know, that was very common. That was understood. All Hallow Eve is when the veil became very thin. And so we would wear a mask. So the spirits couldn't, couldn't get us. They couldn't identify us. Now we're so frigging smart. Only dumb people have a belief system, you know, you know, those ignorant, you know, Bible thumpers or whatever have a belief system. (1:21:40)

You know, they're, they're, they don't believe they don't worship at the mighty altar of science. (1:21:45)

I think that people in the past would have been able to accept this much better than maybe we can now. Yeah, we're now developing the technology to detect it, but it creates an existential time bomb that we may not be able to handle. And I think that's, you know, that's the crux of disclosure. You know, I think that's what is really worrying people, you know, at echelons much higher than I ever was, is how do we communicate this to people without them losing their, I don't know if I can say the S word here, but losing their stuff. (1:22:19)

You can say whatever you want. Without them losing their shit and going crazy because of the existential quandary that this would put them in. Then those of us that either have a belief system through our, you know, our religious upbringing or have a belief system because of our learning or have a belief system through certain things we have experienced in our lives. We can sit back and go, okay, that's kind of cool. That's kind of what I thought anyway. (1:22:44)

It talks about it in some of these very old books, like, you know, the Bible, the Talmud, you know, the, the Quran, you know, talks about these things. And so those, all these guys knew about this stuff before, so why are we acting surprised today? Well, you bring up a great point though. You've got a poster in the background. I have the same one. (1:23:04)

Yo, yo. It's right there. I want to believe, right? I've got it. It sits right next to me. You've got it in the background. And that word there, I love the poster. And I love how that brought awareness to millions of people, you know, Fox Mulder's office with the poster in the background and stuff. But believe, suggest, and belief, right? Believe and belief. (1:23:32)

Correct. Has this religious, first off, it's, it's a religious foundation because it's a belief system into something that is, is not tangible, but you have to believe in it. Okay. All right. But I think that that word that's on this poster, I'm pointing at it, that's over here, is, is incorrect. Because I, I, I, I don't believe I know. Okay. So, what I'm trying to get to is the facts. (1:24:10)

I know that the phenomena is real. I know it. I've seen it. And so have you. But I don't know what it is. Right? That's, that's, that's the crazy part. You just said it yourself. We like to think that we're really smart. We've gotten really smart. We have. But we're not the smartest thing in the neighborhood. No, we're not. No. And what I liken it to is, you know, I use this analogy, you know, when I lecture is imagine an anthill sitting in a forest. (1:24:48)

And the Forest Service comes through and they say, hey, we're going to build a road, you know, from this campsite to this campsite or whatever. (1:24:54)

So they build this road passed right next to this anthill. So these ants come out and they see a road. Okay. An asphalt road. They have no idea what a road is. It is so alien to them. So they go out there and they start trying to communicate this thing with their little ant pheromones, trying to talk to it or whatever. And they have no frame of reference. (1:25:19)

We're the ants. Yeah. It's outside of their universe. We don't even have. Right. We don't even have a language for it. So that's so what I want you to do is I want to believe and I want you to take the word belief. And I want you to turn it into something else, and that's called faith. I have faith. That there's something greater than me, and I might not be able to understand it, but nevertheless, it's there. (1:25:48)

So let's start our own cult. And, you know, this is this is the church. Yeah. Yeah. The church of the church, the church, the Hudson Church of Wu, the Hudson Church of Wu. It has been mentioned so many times, but it's one of the best analogy, one of the best metaphoric ways to look at this is a fish in a fishbowl. Exactly. That is there. (1:26:22)

There is nothing else. That's their universe. That's it. There is nothing else, man. Looking up out of the water to that. They don't see that. That's another dimension. They don't understand. No, no, no. And that's where we are. There's all kinds of things. Brian Green explains this really well, too. And he does this with ants, you know, an ant walking on a thin string, you know, right? (1:26:54)

Walking across the screen. That's a dimension to that ant. That's all it knows. Right. That's it. Everything else beyond that is another dimension to that ant. And it's a really, really good way to look at all of this. Now, so let's talk about the interdimensionality of some of this stuff. Sure. I want to go back and revisit the cube. And the reason why I wanted to... well, first off, it's an amazing experience that happened out at the meadow. (1:27:33)

But at the same time, when you first talked about the cube on this program, the revelation started to happen with pilots seeing cubes. Right. And a very, very strange thing. So let's go back. Let's talk about... take us through the cube story. And as you do that, can you answer one question for me in advance? Did you connect any dots with what was seen off of the east coast of the United States by those fighter pilots and what you saw in the meadow? (1:28:20)

Did things seem similar to you? Yeah, that's a great question. First, I'll recount kind of the folks that might not have either heard this before or read the first book. Is in 2017, in February 11, 2017, we were researching the meadow. (1:28:36)

We had several teams out there with night vision and thermal. And one of the teams that was on top of a ridge looking down, I was on the ridge team. We started detecting man sized heat signatures. Now, when teams are put on site on stations that our teams and ASOG do not move around, they stay put. So we know where everybody is. And we started detecting heat signatures that were about six foot tall, about 18 inches wide in an area that we know we knew we had no personnel. (1:29:06)

This heat signature would get big, small, big, small, big, and then split into two heat signatures and then disappear. Did not correspond with any heat signatures of animals, i.e. deer that we had seen in the evening, earlier in the evening. So we dropped down into the meadow to try to follow up on this. And about that time, we got a radio call from one of our teams that were on the east end of the meadow that they were detecting on their thermals, these cube or box shaped figures that would appear on their thermals and then disappear. (1:29:40)

And what was interesting is they would only appear on thermal. You could not see them with the naked eye. The only way you could detect these is because of the difference between the cubes and the ambient temperature of the surrounding woods or forest. So we started working our way back over to that team and these cubes are appearing and disappearing. And then one appears about 40 meters in front of the team as we're working their way over to it and it dissipates. (1:30:08)

And we get to it and we decide we're going to send an element, a team, into the area where this cube had been. And so when they get up to it, we're filming this on thermal, is when they get up to the edge of where this cube was, their heat signatures are completely obliterated. They disappear. And they described it as when they went into this thing is the environment was different. (1:30:36)

When they went into it, there were no brambles or bushes fighting their way into it. They just walked unimpeded into where the edge of this thing. It was very dark. There was no sound. It was very still. And it was cold, which corresponds with the fact that this thing had a colder heat signature than the surrounding forest. They quickly did a 180 degree and walked their way back out. (1:31:03)

When they walked out, they started encountering branches and briar and sticks and stuff that wasn't there when they walked in. So it's almost like there was a different reality existing at the same time, at the same place. Which is kind of like you can have different quantum states at the same time, at the same place. Light can be another dimension. Right. Light can be both a wave and a particle at the same time. (1:31:31)

Right, right. (1:31:32)

So what if this are quantum effects on a macro scale? Right. You can have two realities existing at the same time, which, you know, that's what this sounds like. So, boxes and cubes. Actually, I wrote a whole chapter in the second book on cubes. And I started digging into that because like you, I started hearing about the fighter pilots talking about seeing a cube inside of a sphere. (1:31:58)

And I thought, damn it, that's a cube. You know, where have we heard about cubes before? And I started really digging into it and forgive me if I'm looking at my notes here. But, you know, I went back to the famous case in Hickson. No, not Hickson, Higdon, the Carl Higdon case in Wyoming. And that was, you know, years ago. And he talked about being brought into a cube, a cube shaped spacecraft. (1:32:30)

And then I started going back and finding other cases of people describing cubes, taking them to other places. And, you know, it's very common. You know, you would think that that's something kind of obscure. But you go back and I actually found a book written specifically about some of the strange UFO things going on in Brazil. And one of the things that was going on in Brazil were flying boxes or cubes that they call chupachupas that would shoot beams and actually injure people. (1:33:02)

Skinwalker Ranch, back in the first book, Hunt for the Skinwalker. Keller and Knapp talk about boxes flying through the air. So I went all the way back into the 1500s and started looking at early writings of alchemists. And it turns out there was something called the Prima Materia. Which was supposedly alchemists believed that that was the material that all matter was made of. (1:33:30)

That's right. So how do they represent in their alchemal etchings? How do they represent the Prima Materia? It's a black cube. And I actually found a wood etching of a representation of the Prima Materia. And it's presented as flying black cubes in the sky. So there's something about these cubes. You know, Katie talks about cubes at the Clearview Ranch. You're seeing boxes and cubes. (1:34:02)

So, you know, do I know what, you know, what the significances of the boxes or cubes are? Not really. You know, maybe the way human beings perceive things that when these interdimensional things start popping into our dimensions, for some reason they manifest as a cube or that's how we perceive them. And that's why the cube has always been a very magical and sacred shape. (1:34:30)

In so far as when you read in the Book of Revelation, it talks about the New Jerusalem coming from the clouds. It's a 1400 mile cube. Which represents Jerusalem coming to the crowd, right down to the ground, Christ returning. And that's perfection on Earth. Something about the cube being perfect. Absolutely. There's the Prima Materia right there. Right. And you see the very first representation of the Prima Materia is a cube, a black cube. (1:35:02)

Very interesting. (1:35:07)

Very interesting. Very interesting. I mean, did you... I don't want to get too sideways here. But when it comes to alchemy, and I'm so in love with that subject. Chasing down real material is part of that journey. But anyway, CERN announced last week that they transmuted lead into gold. How crazy is that, right? And what I wonder is, so they transmuted lead into gold. (1:35:48)

Of all the things in the world, why that? Why was that one of their experiments? Because there's maybe something special about that. Maybe the alchemist knew about. And where it gets even weirder, you know what statue is in front of CERN headquarters? It's the goddess Shiva. I know. I know. I know. I talk about that all the time. The opening ceremonies. Oh, yeah. (1:36:16)

Oh, man. So I had on... This seems to come up a lot on this show, but I'll just tell you. I had a physicist from CERN on the show a few months ago. I'm about to have him back on. From CERN. From one of the media rooms at CERN on Fade to Black. Very cool guy. Very cool guy. So I asked him, Trey. I go, so, dude, what's up, man? (1:36:49)

What's up with the secret stuff? He goes, look, we hear the same stories that you do and the same conspiracy theories that you do. And I'm still looking for the secret Illuminati room here. Right. He goes, I'm looking for the secret door. I haven't found it yet. And we kind of laughed it off. But I was thinking to myself, that's how you hide something. (1:37:17)

You just joke about it. I don't know. I don't know. That is how. That is how special access programs are deflected, you know, in the government as you is called perception management or tech protect. You know, there are folks, you know, you can talk to in the community that did that for a living. And they will tell you how, you know, you would divert people away from the truth by putting something else in front of them that seemed plausible. (1:37:50)

Has the DOD approached you about the meadow? Because we have... don't answer that just yet. We have the involvement at Skinwalker. We have what, you know, the stuff going on around Chris Bledsoe. And other locations around the country that there is... there appears to be an interest with the agencies and the Department of Defense with these locations. You are a former member of the military, right? (1:38:27)

I don't know. Are you still with the corporation there, Trey? I am retired. You're not with the company anymore. Of course, that's what you would say, though. Well, that's what everybody tells me. So, yeah, that's what everybody says is they're retired. Fair enough. Fair enough. Have they approached you? You know, it's kind of funny because I'm always the government guy and folks are going to say, I'm probably... they're probably talking about right now. (1:38:51)

How can we believe what he says? (1:38:53)

He's a former, you know, this thing over my shoulder right here is the U.S. Army Military Intelligence Corps. If you look, Lou has one of these whenever he's interviewed. There's one over his shoulder, too. The same certificate. So I'll tell you, take this for what it's worth. It's truth, I promise. The only involvement in this, this struck me as very weird because, you know, I've been pretty public about this is I have you back professionally. (1:39:25)

I had several counterintelligence agents that would I would work with on stuff. I'll just say, you know, they were credential badge carrying counterintelligence agents and they we would work on stuff and, you know, just chit chatting back and forth. It's like, you know, what are you doing? I just publish his book, you know, I'm kind of excited about it. And one of the agents said, oh, well, what's it about? (1:39:48)

And I told him, I said, you know, it's about this place and all this. And he goes, that sounds really cool. How can I get a copy of it? I said, well, you can order it on Amazon. He goes, cool, I think I'll do that. So he ordered a copy. And the next time we met, which was the next month, he had a copy of the Meadow Project. He goes, dude, can you autograph this for me? (1:40:09)

Because this stuff is fascinating. And that is the only interest that the intelligence community has ever shown in the Meadow. It was just one agent was just interested in this material. You know, he thought it was neat and he wanted his book autographed. Can we stay on this subject? Sure. Okay. So you were deployed overseas. Yeah. Lots of rumors, stories, some videos, and other things about Afghanistan and Iraq that have come out over the last 20 or 30 years about different sites, archaeological sites, things that were dug up, stuff found in caves, stargates, craft retrievals, sightings in the sky, sacred places. (1:41:04)

Entities. We've had everything come out. Well, when you were deployed over there, did you hear about any of this? And did any of this actually happen? Okay. Now, I do have to say this. Is your oath of secrecy does not expire just because you retire. So it did happen. Okay. I did not say that. Okay. So what kind of... was it ET related? (1:41:36)

Was it spiritual? This is the honest truth. Now, of course, people are going to say, well, he just said that. So how do I know this is really the honest truth? I never encountered anything like that. I heard the same stories as everybody else. Kind of like your CERN guy. I heard about the redheaded giant of Kandahar. I was at Kandahar. I didn't see any redheaded giants. (1:41:55)

The only giant of Kandahar I saw was me because I'm six foot four and most people are shorter than I am. So that's about it. So when you were in Kandahar, that's when you first heard the redheaded giant story? (1:42:07)

No, I'd heard it there. I'd heard it somewhere else. I can't remember where, you know, because I've always been interested in this stuff. But I remember hearing something, you know, it might have been on a website or something, you know, or somebody asked me about it. But, you know, I never talked to anybody that directly was involved with that, that knew anything directly about it. (1:42:28)

And I got to remember when I was over there was 2008, 2009. Things are kind of hairy. Yeah. You know, you, uh, it was so, so hairy that we didn't travel on ground. We only took helicopters or C-130s when we moved about the country. It was just, it was too dangerous to move around the ground. So, you know, my job was not to go out into the field and do things. (1:42:50)

My job was basically to do anti-terrorism on the Ford operating bases. So I didn't go out in Indian country that much. I pretty much, uh, that's why they call it a FOB it. I pretty much stayed on the FOBs, uh, you know, and did anti-terrorism there. But, you know, I heard pretty much the same stories from everybody else. And I, one thing I wasn't really intrigued with is the, uh, and I'm going to throw this out there is, of course, the, the famous jellyfish video out of Iraq. You know, was that strange? (1:43:17)

And, you know, people say, oh, that was an ID, uh, uh, balloon cluster, you know, for the celebration of, uh, EID ID. And, you know, they put up the, uh, the photograph of the balloons. And what I've been trying to do is that photograph of the cluster of balloons. Where did, what's the source of that? Did that come out before the video or did that come out after the video? (1:43:43)

Because did somebody Photoshop a bunch of balloons to look like this thing? Did this count it? Or was there like a catalog that had this in it that predates that video being public? So, you know, I don't know. I don't know either. That video didn't impress me. Well, I thought it was weird. It was fun to look at. No, I'm not going to say it wasn't fun to look at. (1:44:04)

It was fun to look at and analyze. But I always go with my eyeballs and how I feel about something. I go with my gut. And that one... no. No, no. It just didn't do it for me. It didn't do it for me. And I'll tell you what. When videos like that surface with these claims that are behind it, the claims are extraordinary. (1:44:41)

All right? Flying pyramids. Okay? If it was what the claims were saying, then it would be the most famous analyzed video in the history of the human race. Right. But because they didn't have the longevity. And that's really... I enjoy watching them and trying to figure stuff out. (1:45:16)

But the claims are just too extraordinary. You know, there are... and that's one thing I like about our work is... I have a whole... this isn't just one or two people anecdotally recounting. These are actually people that were there that saw this stuff, experienced. You can talk to them. You can listen to their interviews. And the old saying is extraordinary claims require extraordinary data. (1:45:43)

And that to a degree is true. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Sometimes extraordinary things do happen. And you just have to kind of take it for face value. One thing I don't do is I don't discount other people's experiences. You can't. You can't. And you can't prove a negative. And so, you know, sometimes we just have to meet people where they're at and say, Well, you know, that was interesting. I wasn't there. (1:46:09)

And leave it at that. Well, look, I just told a story about a dude walking out of the fog. Right. In the middle of nowhere. I expect the same courtesy of listening to my experience. Right. That I give to other people. I will... I put so much weight in people's experiences. I really, really do. You should. Yeah, I put a lot of weight on it. (1:46:38)

You, with your cube in the meadow, and I almost said Jeep, right? The invisible Jeep. These are real experiences. Right, right, they are. And, you know, what... the way we try to approach that is, you know, Shay and I both went to the same university. And like I said, it's transpersonal, humanistic perspective at that particular university in psychology. And so, you know, looking at that through an experiential lens is if people, these phenomena are happening and there's no human being there to experience it. (1:47:16)

What's the point? Why bother if human beings aren't experiencing it? So the empirical is just as important in my point of view as the experiential. You know, the way that people experience it, how did they feel? What did it make them think? You know, did it impact them is just as important as any data I can, you know, record on a thermal or my Geiger counter or, you know, any other equipment I have. (1:47:42)

And it's when you start putting those two together is where the magic really happens, the empirical and the experiential. Now, so much has been put on over the years. This goes back decades and decades and decades with this community. And you can even push it further back into ancient Egypt if you want to and Sumer. But is consciousness and what it is. And then we roll that over into modern science today and what the phenomena is showing us. (1:48:16)

What do you make of that consciousness connection that may be there? Well, first of all, we don't really have a common definition of what consciousness is. That's the problem, isn't it? You know, this is I'm living my lived experience, and I don't know if anybody else out there is real or not. (1:48:34)

It's like the thought experiment of Plato's cave. I don't know. You know, all I can do is speak for myself. You know, then you start getting into simulation theory. You know that the universe is, in fact, a simulation run by somebody else. And then you go back to the ancient texts and it's like, well, they were talking about somebody else in these ancient texts. (1:48:54)

You know, be that God, Yahweh or whatever. So, you know, consciousness is something that is it's fluid and it's very subjective. So that's where it gets really tricky trying to nail down the subjective nature of consciousness. But we do know through experiments and research and things like remote viewing, telekinesis, precognition, near death experiences, that this consciousness is expansive and fluid. And it's not what we always think it is, that we can expand our consciousness. (1:49:30)

We can project our being, if you will. You know, you can get really tied up in labels. You know, our soul, our being, our mind, our existence into other places. So then you start looking at it through that perspective. You know, those optics and all of this stuff starts becoming very reasonable. You know, maybe there are things that exist out there that can pop into our dimension, that we can detect, you know, in our consciousness, but it's not always there. (1:50:03)

Maybe what I think I experienced, I really did. Maybe I can influence the experiences of others. And then you can start really starting to unroll that Gordian's Knot. It gets really complicated, you know, trying to figure out what truth is and what isn't. But what you have to be really careful is truths with a lowercase T does not equal truth with a capital T. You can have a bunch of people looking at the same painting through toilet paper tubes, and everybody sees a portion of the truth, but nobody has the full picture. (1:50:40)

One of the things I do when I lecture is I have a disc. It's red on one side and blue on the other. And I go in the middle of the auditorium. I say, OK, I'm going to hold up something and I want everyone to yell out the color they see. And I hold it up and half of the room yells red and the other half yells blue. (1:50:57)

And I said, here's the cool thing. All of you were right. And all of you were wrong at the same time. Yeah, I love that. Man, I'm straight up stealing that. I'm straight up stealing that. I'm doing that at the next conference. That is brilliant. And that's a really good example. Well, OK, is there an interest? There must be deep knowledge in all of this with the intelligence agencies and the Department of Defense. Yeah. There has to be that. (1:51:34)

They understand it just like we do. Yeah, they do. And my copy of it is around here somewhere. I think it's over there on the other side of my office. (1:51:45)

But it was called a Psychic Spies Behind the Iron Curtain, which was published in 1976. And in that book, it starts talking about Soviet experiments with Psy, you know, be it remote viewing, precognition. Telekinesis. Telekinesis. I probably got that wrong. That's right. All this different stuff. And it really freaked out the U.S. intelligence community. So then you had visionaries like Burt Stubblebine, you know, the former commander of the U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, staring at Goat Sky. And General Stubblebine says, you know, we need to get, we need to do this. (1:52:23)

And so he got people like Colonel Jim Shannon to start looking at the, you know, the Project Jedi. You know, from that perspective, he started sending people to Robert Monroe's Gateway Project. They enlisted the help of SRI, Stanford Research Institute, to start developing something that eventually became remote viewing and move this forward. And through, since I'm familiar with remote viewing, is you look through the SRI documents and the declassified CIA documents. (1:52:53)

Remote viewing is real. There's no doubt about it. It is real. It's repeatable. It's measurable. It exists. So when you move forward into, you know, the 1990s and the CIA says, oh, well, you know, we're shutting down Project Stargate. We're not going to do remote viewing. And the Army says, oh, we gave up Project Grille Flame. We pass that over to DIA. And DIA says, oh, no, we pass it over to CIA. Nobody's doing this anymore. (1:53:18)

A program exists. And it doesn't go away just because you change the code word on it. So, you know, I think that this is still going on. These experiments are still going on. I think Department of Defense is still interested in, or we wouldn't have had DIA funding the research through NIDS at Skinwalker Ranch. So, you know, kind of like what you said is what else are they looking at? (1:53:45)

And I will tell you, they're not looking at the meadow. If DIA dropped a big chunk of money in my lap, they signed me up. The only downside of that, and this is something that Robert Bigelow talks about, is he can't talk about what NIDS came up with because it was all classified under a special access program. So, yeah, it's true. And they get to keep the data. (1:54:08)

Yeah, well, they paid for it. They bought it. It's their data. That's right. I mean, that's fair. You know, when you sign the contract, it's like, yeah, we'll give you the data. And, you know, it's theirs. So, you know, the little bit that comes out, you know, is pretty tantalizing. But what's behind the veil of secrecy? I think that's where the real meat is. (1:54:26)

Yeah, I think that eventually we're going to find out that it's all very fundamental and fundamentally connected, all of the phenomena. And I think it could just come down to two basic things, and that's entanglement and consciousness. (1:54:43)

Yes. You know, and that goes with the reports of consciously controlled craft. Yes. Or an interdimensional being. Yes. Or an orb. Or, or, or, or. We can go on remote viewing. Yes. That it's all just consciousness and entanglement. Everything. And once we figure that out, maybe throw in a little gravity, too, as well, then we'll be able to achieve our next stage in evolution. (1:55:16)

Right. Everything that is, was, or will be exists now in some form. The Bible talks about the Alpha and the Omega existing at the same time. All we have to do is train ourselves to reach into that realm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What are you working on now? Any announcements? The announcements are, of course, my second book, Return to the Meadow. And I'm just going to do a shameless plug here. (1:55:43)

Return to the Meadow. It's out. I would love for everybody to get a copy of it. I'm very proud of this book. I'm very excited about it. It's quite reasonable on ebook form. Also, my first book is an excellent way to kind of prime the pump going into the second book. That's The Meadow Project. Both are available on Amazon. My website, Transcendresearch.com, has links to all of this. (1:56:09)

Right now, I hope to be able to release a trailer for our documentary soon, very soon. I'm hoping by the end of the week to release that and maybe start coming out with a date. So I'm very excited about that. We're doing some research with another group, possibly going to another location that is very famous to do some research. And I'm going to continue researching The Meadow as long as whatever the forces out there want to interact with us, we'll continue to interact with it. (1:56:43)

We're always coming up with new ways and new techniques to kind of heighten the experience. Be they God Helmets or Estes Protocols or things like that. So we're still out there making it happen. So hopefully there'll be another book in the future if I can generate enough material. Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Excellent. And as soon as I get that teardrop trailer hooked up to my Jeep, I'm heading east. (1:57:09)

You know it. You know it. I can't wait. Trey, thank you so much, my friend. Always a great conversation. And I look forward to our next one. Thank you so much. Take care. Trey Hudson, everybody. Trey's links are below and the moderators have put it up throughout the chat. We also have treyhudsonresearch.com over on our website, throughout social media, and of course in the description below. (1:57:37)

All right. And I want to remind everybody that tomorrow night on the show, I have Dale Graff on. And tomorrow night, we're going to be talking about more about this subject. The scythe field and precog dreams and a little remote viewing and consciousness thrown in for good measure. All of that tomorrow night with Dale. But for now, until tomorrow night, all I've got is go back Lee Tappy. Fade to Black is produced by Hilton J. Palm, Renee Newman, and Michelle Free. Special thanks to Bill, John, Dex, Jessica, Dennis, and Kevin. Webmaster is Drew the Geek. Music by Doug Aldrich. Intro, Space Boy. Fade to Black is produced by KJCR for the Game Changer Network. This broadcast is owned and copyrighted 2024 by Fade to Black and the Game Changer Network, Inc. It cannot be rebroadcast, downloaded, copied, or used anywhere in the known universe without written permission from Fade to Black or the Game Changer Network. I'm your host, Jimmy Church. Go back Lee Tappy. (1:58:51)

(2025-06-08)

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