Alejandro Rojas + John Greenewald 対談 : "Davis/Wilson メモ"、MJ-12 資料 を巡る UFO 業界の姿勢を 批判
前置き
Alejandro Rojas は MJ-12 資料が捏造であることを詳しく解説した UFO 研究者。John Greenewald, Jr は "Davis/Wilson メモ" の信憑性について批判し、問題提起を続けてきた UFO 研究者。
その両名による対談動画。再生回数が 4年間で 5,000回に満たないことからも、UFO 業界がこの両名の観点とは大きく解離していることがわかる。
軍や情報機関による UFO 情報の 捏造/情報撹乱 の歴史に疎い UFO 研究者/ファン/マニア が大多数となっている現状では貴重な意見。
今回は 文字起こし だけを付ける。後日、和訳＋ AI 要約 を追加したいところ。
動画(1:04:17)
UFO Hoaxes & Disinformation - Special Guest: Alejandro Rojas
www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnUDsQhvACE
動画概要欄
4,700 views Premiered Jul 9, 2020
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ブラック・ヴォールトは20年以上にわたって、UFO現象に関する何千ページもの資料を公式ルートを通じて収集してきた。しかし、非公式な手段で文書が表面化したらどうなるのだろうか？
リークされた文書や根拠のない噂は、何十年もの間、UFOロジーの分野を悩ませてきた。そして、いわゆる証拠が表面化したとき、私たち全員が自問自答しなければならない最大の疑問は、この情報を真に受けるべきなのか、ということである。
マジェスティック12からプロジェクト・アクエリアスまで、そしてプロジェクトSERPOからロズウェル・スライドまで、これらの話やその他多くの話が、未知の、あるいはせいぜい非常に疑わしい、信頼できない情報源から長年にわたって表面化してきた。そして、UFOの分野では何でもそうであるように、決して白か黒かではなく、たいていはいつも激しい論争を伴う。
今日のゲストは、アレハンドロ・ロハスだ。彼は有名なウェブサイトOpenMinds.tvを運営し、科学、宇宙、SF、UFOについて幅広く執筆している。そして、後者に取り組むとき、彼は深く掘り下げて、事実と...フィクションを分けようとしている。
アレハンドロと私は、UFOの分野で今最もホットなトピックを、そしてそれがホットなトピックであり続けるべきかどうかを論じます。
ご期待ください...あなたは「ブラック・ヴォールト」の内部へと旅立とうとしているのです。
For more than 20 years, The Black Vault has collected thousands of pages on the UFO phenomena through official channels. But, what happens, when documents surface by unofficial means?
Leaked documents and unsubstantiated rumors have plagued the field of UFOlogy for decades. And the biggest question we all have to ask ourselves when that so-called evidence does surface; is should this information ever be taken seriously at all?
From Majestic 12 to Project Aquarius, and from Project SERPO to the Roswell Slides – these stories and many more have surfaced over the years from unknown or highly questionable and unreliable sources at best. And like anything with the field of UFOs, it is never black & white, and usually always comes with a heavy dose of controversy.
My guest today, is Alejandro Rojas. He runs the well known OpenMinds.tv website, and he writes extensively about science, space, science fiction and UFOs. And when he tackles the latter, he has dug in deep to try and separate fact… from fiction.
Join us, as Alejandro and I break down some of today’s hottest topics within the field of UFOs – and whether they should be hot topics at all.
Stay tuned… you’re about to journey INSIDE THE BLACK VAULT.
FasterWhisper AI(large-v2 model) + DeepL(2024-07 model)
▼原文 展開
That's right, everybody. As always, thank you so much for tuning in and making this your podcast or your stream of choice here on YouTube for at least the next hour or so. I'm your host, John Greenwald, Jr. And I'm pretty excited about today's show. We're going to be diving into quite a few topics with my guest, Mr. Alejandro Rojas. Alejandro, thanks so much for joining me. (0:02:44)
Thanks for having me. It's great. It's been a while since we've done something like this. And I'm excited about it. I'm really happy to be back here talking with you. Yeah, no, it has been a while. It's been too long. Actually, a lot has happened. And I think we both realized that when we got on the phone the other day, and talked for what, two hours and then realized, oh, my gosh, you know, yeah, so it was a lot of fun catching up with you. (0:03:11)
And I think that with today's show, there is so much going on in the field of ufology. Some is really exciting. And I think some is really kind of frustrating for I don't want to speak for you. But for I think people that have been around the block for a little bit, it's frustrating to see some of these stories resurface as something that's quote unquote new. (0:03:31)
And that's finding its way to mainstream media. Obviously, I'm talking about the MJ 12 documents and subjects coming back up. The Eric Davis Wilson, the Eric Davis slash Admiral Wilson notes, that's really, you know, at the forefront. So I want to dig in a little bit with you, because I know that you have covered a lot of this in your writing. Throughout the years, you've tackled a lot with with the MJ 12 stuff. (0:03:57)
I want to dig in to see what you've done with the Davis, the Davis notes, and obviously just disinformation as a whole. You got a preference on where you want to start? Geez, that's a tough one. But I guess just to address the generalities kind of the point where we are, I think a lot of the people that are interested, a lot of what is considered the UFO Twitter, or there's a term out there, the young guns, or a lot of the kind of buzz out there, they weren't there back decades ago, with some of the information that, you know, we've been kind of saddled with, in some cases, for decades. (0:04:35)
And so I think there's a little bit of an education that, you know, those of us who have been doing this for a while can share. And, and I think it also kind of breaks down, you know, perspectives, like where they're coming from. So for instance, you know, you and I kind of found ourselves on a bit of opposing sides where you were looking at the DoD and what they were saying, and I was looking at, you know, what TTSA was doing and what they were saying. And, and I think there's some confusion in that I was relying on on testimony for what I was saying, and largely, and you are relying on documents, but, you know, there's a difference. I was relying on firsthand testimony, whereas right now, this group is really excited about a lot of third, fourth, fifth hand testimony, which just doesn't hold as much water as firsthand testimony. (0:05:29)
So they don't understand why are you, you know, kind of changing sides? Why are you now looking for documents or some confirming information when we have all of this witness testimony? Well, hearsay, you know, it's just not as strong as witness testimony by any means. And I think you've offered up some scenarios of possibilities. And we'll be getting into a real blind spot. (0:05:54)
I think the UFO field hasn't researched enough. Has there been official government disinformation? If so, what is that disinformation? And at the same time, there's kind of a neurotic issue we have in that a lot of people do believe there was disinformation, but they believe it's all true. How can it be disinformation and true at the same time? You know, we've got to do an intelligent analysis as to which is which. (0:06:20)
Or if there's any disinformation at all, I think that this all has to be proven and borne out still. So I got work ahead of us. Yeah, no, it's and it's a lot of work. And I think that that with the in regards to the TTSA thing, which obviously not only caused, you know, friction between our conversations and online interactions, but I see it as as a whole that people really have taken sides here on just saying, you know what, I'm gonna believe x, I'm gonna believe y. (0:06:50)
And if you don't believe it, I'm gonna shun you and attack you and so on. Now, before we really dig into that aspect, I want to lay a little bit of the of that groundwork where you said that there's a little bit of education that is needed. And I think some people get offended by hearing that not not present company. (0:07:07)
But I think people say, Well, how dare you? I've been doing this for years. Well, it doesn't matter. (0:07:09)
I've been doing it for 23. And I'm still a newbie. I mean, I consider myself a newcomer. And I was attacked viciously for saying newcomer the other day when I was doing a radio interview. And I was amazed by that, because I think people are so offended at the fact that there has been so much that has happened in the decades and decades and decades and decades that people have looked into the UFO field, that a lot of stuff will kind of get debunked or be put to rest, so to speak, or remain incredibly controversial. (0:07:40)
But then it kind of gets forgotten. And then it's rebrought back up, whether it be in a flashy documentary, whether it be in the form of documents, or photographs or whatever, and then it resurfaces, and the debate starts all over. So let's zone in on a couple of these issues. And I guess I'll just pick the Eric Davis notes, because I want to start here. (0:08:01)
I wouldn't say that there's any evidence to just 100% label this an outright downright hoax. But there's a lot of problems with these notes and documents, and I feel that they are a work of fiction. Now, we don't have to get into too much of the background. I've done a pretty big video on this channel. For those that are watching on YouTube, if you're interested in the background of these notes, I do have a very extensive video that goes back and, and analyzes the background. (0:08:27)
So we don't have to go too deep into that. But let me just ask you, do you feel that that is an important piece of evidence in the field of ufology right now? And should we be focusing on it? I think I would put it this way. I think it's interesting. I think that it's important in the sense, because I've always felt it's important to look at the kind of social issues, the mythology, how effective the mythology is, what is a mythology based on and I don't use the term mythology to mean that it's not true. (0:09:04)
But it's just widely held beliefs that are often dubious, or sometimes not substantiated, or sometimes it's mythology that we're working on to substantiate, and it becomes substantiated at some point. So that's what I mean when I say that. And certainly this document has established quite a bit of that mythology. In fact, I think it's Grant Cameron who calls it the coarse grits, meaning he believes it kind of represents kind of the coarse secrets the government has regarding, you know, alien technology and that sort of thing. So in that sense, I think it's important. (0:09:38)
As far as the most important document, by no means is it the most important document, I would say, you know, documents such as the Nimitz situation summary that George Knapp had released is more important in that this is allegedly a document written by the military for the military, and it has some really shocking kind of speculation in it. (0:10:05)
That is interesting. Of course, that whole situation has been influential to the Congress. And we have now the Senate Intelligence Committee asking for UAP reports as a result of that information and others. I think that's way more impactful and way more important than these alleged notes. And, you know, if I could continue kind of on those notes, thoughts on them. (0:10:30)
I tweeted this the other day is that and I'm sharing this not only from a perspective as a journalist, of course, you know, I'm not writing for any major outlet, although I have written for Huffington Post, that's, I guess, the most major. But I talk with a lot of people who do write for some big outlets. And I have a similar perspective in that, you know, the only first hand witnesses to that would be Eric Davis and Admiral Wilson. Admiral Wilson is denying it happened. (0:11:06)
Eric Davis is no comment. So we don't really have any hard evidence to say that the event took place. But let's say Eric Davis did come out and say, okay, guys, it happened. You know, obviously, we've got all of these people. I told it happened. It's true. It did happen. Well, then we have the word of an admiral. And I'm not saying this to demean Davis whatsoever, because I think very highly of him. (0:11:30)
But looking out from the mainstream in, then you've got this admiral who was on the Joint Chief, you know, versus the word of a scientist who looks into weird paranormal stuff and claims to have had a bunch of paranormal experiences, right? For a mainstream journalist, you know, they're going to do what they often do a tongue in cheek sort of thing that, you know, there's kind of this weird mad scientist who's making these claims about an admiral and the admiral and the person who supposedly got him in touch with this admiral are denying this ever happened. (0:12:03)
And they have not necessarily receipts, but they've kind of put out there that, you know, Wilson has said, I was never in Vegas. Well, that would open him up. Because if people can prove he was in Vegas, they can prove he was lying. I don't think he would share that information if it wasn't true. He could have just said, Yeah, I was in Vegas to do this talk for this organization. But I didn't talk to any guy named Eric Davis. I mean, he's kind of put himself out there that way. (0:12:30)
And so far, no one had to place him in Vegas at that time. So that's kind of ways and people keep coming up with, oh, we've got another person who says they heard about this, this happening. That to me really doesn't hold any weight either in that it's just another third, fourth or fifth hand witness. We've got an abundance of those. (0:12:52)
Obviously, people were told this occurred back when doesn't mean it did occur. And even if it did occur, even if Davis who I, you know, came out and said it did occur, just like my note said, I would be more prone to believe that Admiral Wilson was lying to him, then that the things that were said in that document were true. (0:13:15)
I mean, using Occam's razor, that would, I think, be the case. But, you know, we'll get into this more. But you know, there are a lot of kind of the tropes of the time UFO mythology that are mentioned in that document, in particular, MJ 12, that are that I feel, you know, were debunked when they came out by the by the major UFO researchers at the time. (0:13:39)
And I think a lot of people are, have done this in ufology for the last few decades, buried their hand head in the sand regarding the dubious nature of these documents, because I don't want to be accusatory, but it does seem like some people want to believe so badly that they don't want to look at some of that. (0:13:57)
Yeah. You know, that's why I did not get an arraignment. (0:13:58)
John Greenewald Yeah, not not to interrupt you. That's why I use the phrase I want to believe syndrome is that you, you sacrifice that that need for evidence, you sacrifice that requirement of an admission by let's say, Admiral Wilson. And I think only in ufology, when somebody comes out and says, No, look, that didn't happen. It's like, boom, yes, it did. That's it. That's proof that it did happen. (0:14:23)
Because what he tell you of course not, well, that kind of leans into my argument of, well, of course, he wouldn't tell the public just like he wouldn't go into a car and somewhere in Vegas and tell Dr. Eric Davis, that's not against Eric Davis. But the mere existence of such a special access program, the mere knowledge that it existed in and of itself would be a classified thing. (0:14:47)
So somebody like Admiral Wilson, a former J to somebody of his level would not run around and go, this exists, and I can't access it. No, it again, that's where that, in my opinion, common sense comes in. And logic. Let me ask you this part, because you did bring up the the Senate interest and the fact that they're looking for you a UAP report, which I think is such fascinating news. (0:15:09)
I think that that should be the focus. Do you think that this is hurtful to the movement to push Congress and the Senate to get the intelligence community to create unclassified reports on UAPs to start giving mainstream coverage because it has now in radio received a very big kind of nod, I should say, where we're looking at the Wilson documents. (0:15:35)
And as you mentioned, there's no supporting evidence. Do you feel that that is hurtful to the other good stuff that's going on in this field? I think that it can be in that as a journalist who's looking at this stuff, you know, they're going to look at who are this team? Who are these people that took this information to the Senate? And there's a lot of behind the scenes we don't know. (0:15:58)
I mean, Unidentified, the History Channel series, which is about to reboot, showed us a little bit behind the scenes where the guys were taking, you know, some of these military witnesses to DC. So we know that happened. And but we don't know how much behind the scene that's been going on. I just interviewed Chris Mellon yesterday, and I'll be releasing that interview soon, where he kind of outlined, you know, they've been working quite diligently. (0:16:26)
Luis Elizondo in interviews has said the same that they've been spending quite a lot of time in Washington, speaking with military leadership and people in Congress and people like Brian Bender of Politico have confirmed that he's heard the same thing among the people that, you know, he's been interviewing and talking to his sources. So there's a lot of that going on that we don't see. (0:16:48)
So what do we see? What is a journalist going to look at? Well, they're going to examine the team. They're going to see Tom DeLonge and some of the, you know, more wild things he said, like on Joe Rogan and maybe agree with Joe Rogan's kind of analysis of what Tom DeLonge told him. They will see, you know, perhaps some of programs like the remote viewing program, how Putoff worked on. (0:17:12)
They'll see, you know, maybe some of the claims that Davis has said. If this whole Wilson thing is blown up, then it could because here you have, you know, on the record, Commander Miller and Wilson saying, no, this never happened. And you have these people who are already attached to kind of these fringe topics saying, yes, it did. You know, where's a journalist to go? I think the evidence is heavily based on that. (0:17:39)
You know, the fringe guys are telling us some weird stuff. And here we are again with UFOs and their people and their weird beliefs. And now they're convincing Marco Rubio of, you know, something here. So I think it can if it goes that far. It's certainly wise not to. And I think in that, you know, he doesn't want to get himself in trouble. (0:17:59)
And I don't think he wants to jeopardize anything going on right now. So it's probably a wise move from him. He told me the same no comment, you know. So it's a possibility. It certainly is, depending on how big it gets. But it almost seems like the Senate Intelligence Committee request has kind of had its day. You know, it's ran its news cycle. (0:18:21)
It was a story for a couple days. And it probably won't be news again until maybe the bill passes and people pick it up again. There's supposedly an article out there being worked on that by a mainstream media that might talk about this. But then again, you know, if it's about alleged crash retrievals, you know, we just had the Roswell anniversary World War World UFO Day, and then also the President, you know, mentioning Roswell in an interview with his son. (0:18:55)
So they'll probably be picking up on that. (0:18:57)
I don't think knows the difference between Roswell and Area 51. But I digress. Yeah, a lot of people had said that. And that could be the case. But, you know, it gives the media who many of whom are, are very quick to jump on, you know, some of the things he says that it gives them room, then maybe even this to be a negative piece rather than a positive piece regarding the possibility of that. (0:19:22)
That's exactly what I feel that could happen here as more and more is pushed on second, third, fourth hand information, then the UFO community, let's say that it's branded as that as labeling Admiral Wilson a liar, because you have to you have to accept that he's lying to to start believing this story. And that's fine. (0:19:50)
Maybe he very well is fabricating what really happened. And that's fine. But But this is kind of the hypocrisy when a military officer, man or woman comes out and says, I saw something over the Pacific, I chased it, I, you know, was trying to find it, it outpaced me this and that. That is, and I agree with this part, some of the most valuable firsthand account witness testimony that you can get. (0:20:12)
I mean, you obviously have a highly trained again, man or woman in the cockpit, military, they're just highly regarded when it comes to witnesses. But when the same level, the same category comes out and says something that the UFO community doesn't like, or at least a portion of it, boom, they're branded a liar, you know, and that's what I don't understand. Because that is hypocrisy at its finest, where military men and women are going to be the most honest, so you got to believe them if they saw a UFO. Yet, when they come out and say, No, I'm sorry, these notes aren't true. (0:20:45)
But that liar, I knew it, I knew it, you know, and that that I feel is is kind of problematic, drilling down a little bit more in the notes, you would touch the fact that it talked about Roswell and bodies and crash retrieval, and MJ 12, and so on. Obviously, that gets to another topic that I want to bring up with you, which is that majestic 12. And I know that you have over the years dug in very, very deeply. (0:21:12)
We've had mutual friends and acquaintances that have done the same. We don't all necessarily agree at the end of the day. But are you solidified with the fact that majestic 12 was a hoax? I am and I don't know. I guess it almost comes back to kind of your your most recent comment to in that, you know, Admiral Wilson is a liar, but they believe everything in that he supposedly told Eric David. So at the same time, he's a liar, but he's telling the truth out of these wild kind of fringe things that he's allegedly sharing to a complete stranger, who he says was introduced to him by people who he is upset that put out information that he asked them not to put out. (0:21:57)
So these guys come to him and they're like, Hey, we told this guy what you said, what? You weren't supposed to tell anybody what I said. Oh, sorry, you know, can you talk to him? Takes him into a car and shares these incredible secrets that he could get in big trouble for. It doesn't make any sense. But even with the MJ-12 documents, you know, if we get into the details, the first time the word MJ-12 appeared in the UFO community was this ridiculous document called the Project Aquarius memo, essentially, that was released, given from Richard Doty, who was an agent with the Air Force Office of Special Investigations. It was given to this guy named Benowitz who is a scientist working near Kirtland Air Force Base and he felt he was seeing lights and weird stuff going on at the base that he thought was UFOs and aliens. (0:22:51)
And Doty says he created hoax documents to feed to Benowitz to make him believe yeah, those are not our black projects, which is what according to Doty he was really observing. What you're seeing is aliens and UFOs. And he created this whole document about how uh-oh, Benowitz is on to us, you know, we've got to fool him and all of this stuff. (0:23:15)
And in there they said, you know, MJ-12 has been alerted to this type of thing. And the document is just ridiculous. It's poorly written. The information is awful. And so this Richard Doty guy then has said, you know, I was told by my superiors to throw him off and to create this fake information. Yet, the UFO community doesn't want to deal with that. (0:23:41)
And they want to, for the most part, you know, accept these MJ-12 documents as the truth. But at the same time, many of the older researchers will say, well, yeah, Doty was giving disinformation, but that doesn't mean it's all false. You know, there's some truth in those falsehoods. But yet they want to believe all the details. So they're taking it all as truth. Kind of counter to what they're saying. (0:24:10)
I mean, the both can't be true. It can't be all true. But partial disinformation, then what parts are the disinformation that you're believing in? And I think that's a very, very important question. That's why I'm so fascinated, because I think this is one area that if the government was officially disinformation, you know, putting out disinformation, we can catch them red handed. (0:24:35)
But really, nobody wants to look into it. Even Sam Friedman, who is a big proponent of the MJ-12 documents, you know, and a good friend of mine and yours. And fortunately, I had enough of a relationship with him. And he loved to debate that I could, you know, really kind of challenge him on some of these questions. And I have him on camera. And I guess getting into the background. (0:24:58)
So for instance, what happened was Richard Doty put out a couple ridiculous articles, you know, documents, they were just terrible and full of silly things. One of these he presented to Linda Howe, he invited her to Kirtland Air Force Base, which is where he was headquartered. She comes out, he shows her this crazy document, Jesus was an alien, all of this, Carter briefing, allegedly, and Project Aquarius is on there, all of these things. Then Linda Howe leaves. (0:25:31)
At first he denied, he ever showed this stuff to Linda Howe? (0:25:34)
When I asked Linda Howe, how did you feel when he denied it? She said, he never denied it. Yes, he did. Often, you know, when he was first asked, what did you present to Linda Howe? He lied, which is his MO, he changes his story constantly. Then the documents became much more sophisticated and were mailed to a man named Jamie Shandera. And Jamie Shandera was working with Stanton Friedman's partner, William Moore, a research partner who wrote the first Roswell book based off of a lot of Stanton Friedman's information. (0:26:12)
Nobody knew William Moore was working with Richard Doty, that William Moore had decided he would help him put out this disinformation in order to get the secrets about UFOs. And he did this for several years throughout the 80s. He helped Doty with this, at this time working with Stanton Friedman. Incidentally, the documents became much more well written, much more compelling, but the research reflected in some cases nearly exactly the research he was doing with Stanton Friedman. Stanton Friedman's take, well, we were really good, turned out what we were learning or what we were figuring out was true. (0:26:58)
Well, God bless him, he did do good research, but nobody can do research that good. Even if I had, you know, someone said, hey, it turned out everything you researched was exactly right. I think I would stand back and say, well, no, I'm only privy to a slice of information. It's impossible. I could have figured it all out. So I found that, you know, that, of course, is very coincidental. At the time that this all happened, you know, a lot of the major researchers rolled their eyes and thought, oh my gosh, William Moore, we're never working with him again. Obviously, he worked with Doty to fake all of this stuff. We're done with it. (0:27:32)
We'll wash our hands of it and never speak of this entire affair again. It's kind of their attitude. But the problem is, is we really need to understand that because that what I say, Phil, is disinformation. I mean, the guy who released it claims it has really become kind of the basis, the bedrock of a lot of the UFO mythology that is believed to this day. (0:27:53)
John Greenewald And let me jump in just for clarification with Richard Doty, because obviously, for those who do use social media, you'll see him floating around. He's on some Facebook groups, he's actually accessible. I have full disclosure invited him on this show, I'd have a conversation with him. And so so that was a little bit before the pandemic hit, and haven't been able to do many interviews. (0:28:16)
But that being said, I'll bring anybody to talk, talk to them on here. And I know that he's discussed some of this, has he admitted to creating those documents? He's he waffles. That's why I haven't interviewed him. And I've got a document out there called an open letter to the US Air Force, on this UFO disinformation, because he was an Air Force employee. (0:28:43)
When he was doing this, he was working for the OSI. At one point, late in the 80s, he was demoted. (0:28:48)
John Alexander, former Colonel in the Army Intelligence, who was also an Army Inspector General, which is very important. It means he was the guy who is supposed to make sure that everybody's following the rules, which means he's one of the few people who knows all the rules, because it's complicated. And, you know, he feels that certainly Doty probably was demoted for this reason. (0:29:16)
But Doty has claimed, you know, he, I don't think he's ever denied that it was a disinformation campaign. However, he's changed his story on the origins of certain documents, where they came from what he's been involved with what he hasn't been involved with. And I've documented some of that in my article, this open letter to the Air Force. But my main conclusion is he waffles so much, and he changes stories so often, that that's why it's kind of not worth interviewing him, because he's just going to say something different the next day. (0:29:50)
And, you know, we've got I think it's part of the story about that. I think that that's part of the story that that when somebody like that is is tightly connected. And I'll give a prime example with this SNI e m j 12 document that has surfaced, again, for those watching on the YouTube channel, recently, I recently posted a kind of breakdown of that, and was able to prove that number one, the top secret umbra markings align perfectly to the pixel, which means that it was created digitally. But it's none other than Richard Doty, who has come along over the years, gave his stamp of approval and said, No, no, this was a retype. So all of that is perfectly acceptable. (0:30:26)
And so his hands are on all of these documents. And that's what I think some people are missing. Because I feel that we definitely have enough evidence to put this in a category that should not be the focus. Yet going back to what you said, when decades ago, people were like, hey, let's wash our hands of this. Let's move on. Here we are in 2020. We have not moved on. (0:30:50)
And in fact, quite opposite. We now have a rumor I want to be fair to Dr. put off here, Dr. Hal put off that he was talking about this crash retrieval document, I have not seen and correct me if I'm wrong, and admission by him saying this is it. I reached out to Dr. put off, he would not go on the record with me. (0:31:15)
So I want to be fair, we could be talking about something that Dr. put off was not referencing in his speech, I think he's now done it twice. However, those that are touting this document as real are 100% convinced. This is what Dr. put off was talking about. How does that allegation now play in into all of this since TTSA is connected to that Senate slash congressional movement to get UAP reports, one of the co founders is allegedly again, I'm trying to be fair here, because I haven't seen him admit it is allegedly connected to pushing a document that has such controversial roots to it. (0:31:55)
Does that or will that play a role in all of this playing out? (0:31:58)
You know, the big part not going on the record, like Davis, and I've heard through the rumor mill like you that, you know, that put off does believe that document to be real. That, that's kind of shocking to me. I think Davis is even kind of hinted that maybe thinking there's something to the document. Because you've done a good job, I think showing some of the problems with it. (0:32:36)
I think that Paul Dean has done a great job and other researcher on government documents, he's done a great job showing, you know, tons of problems with it, like a lot of glaring issues. And then when it comes to the origins of MJ 12, like others, like Robert Hastings, whose work I rely on, and myself, I think I've done really good research to show that the MJ 12 documents are certainly highly, highly questionable. (0:33:02)
So I think that I wonder, you know, what information are going on if they believe that to be true. And again, we only have second third hand information that they even believe that. So I would love to get the opportunity, I hope to get the opportunity to talk to put off Fandor Davis about this and see, not necessarily to get them on the record, but see what information they're going by and, and see if they've seen my research and are aware of some of these issues with Dodi, because I believe that, you know, put off even hired for a period of time, he did work with him. (0:33:46)
So could it be that they've been fooled by Richard Dodi? Richard Dodi comes off, actually, as a convincing person, a very innocent kind of guy, but he's not innocent at all in that, especially what they did with Paul Bennett, drove him nuts. I mean, I've got so many stories of Bennewitz, like, threatening people running them out of his house and hiding in his car with aluminum foil and everything, because he's afraid the aliens are going to read his mind. (0:34:11)
And Dodi claimed to do things like when he was gone, you know, rearrange Bennewitz's furniture. So you would imagine why this guy would go nuts and say, Oh, yeah, it's got to be the Russians or someone looking for you. So you got to be careful. So the guy went crazy was instituted several times before finally his his family said enough is enough, you're done with UFOs. And, and they cut him off from everybody. (0:34:37)
And thank goodness, because, you know, it was very traumatic for him. So. So I think it could if they went on the record, it could damage them. But as far as just rumors, even if you're a journalist looking to really defame them, you would have to be dubious yourself in citing that sort of information. Unfortunately, there are those sort of journalists and I don't mind using the name Keith Kors, an example of someone who puts a lot of terrible research on these obvious hit pieces. (0:35:12)
Yeah. He and he knows better. He's someone I know who knows better because he's been shared information that is accurate, but chooses to write otherwise. (0:35:20)
John Greenewald Yeah, and there is this weird, I don't want to just focus on him. But he applies in this category that there's just this weird obsession with trying to take this topic and diminish it. And I and I, and I regret giving him a quote for his intercept piece when he when he wrote that, simply because now that I've seen how it's progressed since then, he definitely is in the category of journalists that don't care about the actual facts that have come out about certain things that he has this agenda. (0:35:55)
I've never in the history of me working with journalists ever seen anybody with such a vendetta. I mean, I've blocked him for months, he still manages to find screenshots of my stuff and tweets about it. So you know, there is this obsessive, you know, obsessive effort to try and diminish this, I don't understand it. But to go back with the Richard Doty saga, you had filed some requests to AFOSI that tied into Benowitz, and I believe Doty, I wanted to ask you about that, because I revisited him shortly before this interview. They were really interesting. (0:36:30)
Tell everybody what you did. I think you received them through the Freedom of Information Act, but what you went after and what'd you find? So I FOIA'd, you know, information about Doty, everything I could get, you know, his career information, you know, and, and everything related to Benowitz and he, and I had seen that a couple other people had gotten some documents regarding all of this, but they didn't really know what to do with them. So for instance, Bruce McAbee had investigated a UFO case, and I think it was the late 70s or around 1980. And unfortunately, it eludes me right now the name of the base, it's in my document, but he talked to the witnesses, and he talked to this guy, Richard Doty. And his conclusion was this Richard Doty guy was a complete liar, that he, you know, he, at first, you didn't understand why was this guy telling me this weird stuff, whereas the witnesses were telling me something totally different. (0:37:37)
The witnesses said, No, I don't know what he's talking about. Here's what really hurt. And so he said, I just kind of put this aside, but he made a note that, you know, this Richard Doty guy was trying to feed him BS during this this whole time. And this is before he was with the Office of Special Investigations and before Kirtland. So this is at a different base. (0:37:58)
He also said, The Air Force sent me these documents regarding Doty, at one point, this was later on. And he was like, I don't know why they sent these to me. It's not about the case, investigating or writing about now. But just so you know, these are out there. And they were, he didn't release them all, but they were, you know, speaking to Doty. So I knew something was out there. (0:38:26)
Also, I think it's Barry Greenwood. And I forget who wrote the book with him. But it was another book that referenced these documents. In the end, in, you know, kind of a, an epilogue, just a note at the end of the book, by the way, right before we went to print, we got these documents that show that, you know, Richard Doty was sharing information that is not accurate according to the Air Force. And so I was able to these documents and when I worked with the Air Force public relations, they were very open and helpful. They were like, you know, we'll get you whatever you want. And one thing I really wanted was someone to go on the record to ask questions about some of these improprieties because essentially what Doty was claiming to do is illegal. (0:39:10)
You know, you can't have counterintelligence against Americans. You can't break into a US citizen, rearrange their furniture, you can't do that, especially at the behest of your superiors. And they said, no problem, we'll definitely get you someone to talk to you. But let's work on the documents first. They got documents. As soon as I got them, I said, Okay, these are great. (0:39:34)
Thank you so much. I'm ready for my interview. And they're like, Nope, you already got your documents. And I was like, Yeah, I know. But you had, we had been talking about this, you said you were gonna and they're like, Nope, you've got everything on this that we have, you know, end of story. And then they just didn't return anything else regarding that. (0:39:51)
The documents were interesting, though, because essentially, I think it shares their point, their perspective, which is what I think they wanted out there. (0:40:00)
Because there's certainly an attachment to them and these MJ 12 documents, rightly so because of Doty's involvement. When Steve Schiff, the Congress had asked about the MJ 12 documents, the Air Force wrote bogus on it and said, Well, okay, we know that bogus, they appear to be bogus. The question is, why did these come from you all? Yeah, but they didn't answer that question. What they sent me in these documents essentially said that yes, this scientist Benowitz came to us. (0:40:36)
He said he thought he was seeing UFOs and perhaps getting alien signals that were at the base. He thought maybe aliens were messing with them. We did send over Richard Doty and another officer to look at his material. The other officer who was senior to Doty had said, you know, we don't know what these are. They don't have anything to do with us. (0:41:01)
So thank you. But they also had another meeting later on where Benowitz came to the office and showed people some stuff and they really people got kind of weirded out and they attended because he was a one of their suppliers of technical equipment. And so they gave him some time but most people left the meeting before it was over and nothing came of that either. (0:41:25)
So what's interesting though, however, is that there were a couple of people that generated two of these reports and they were both Congress people. So a New Mexico Senator Domenici came to Kirtland Air Force upset saying, you know, I'm hearing from this Benowitz guy that you guys are messing with that you have some kind of top secret project, you're looking into him, what's this all about? Well, they have Doty tell Domenici, oh, no, that's not true. (0:41:54)
He came, you know, essentially what I told you earlier, he had been interested in UFOs. And we told him we didn't think any of it. And we sent him away. So Domenici seemed to be happy with that and was gone. Then another senator came doing the same thing because Benowitz was reaching out to the politicians in the area. (0:42:15)
And the same thing happened. They send Doty out and Doty says, oh, sorry, you know, this is all... we told Benowitz we don't think much of this. Meanwhile, this entire time, even during the time that these Congress people had come to visit, Doty was actively giving disinformation to Paul Benowitz. The big question is, was this at the behest of his superiors, or not? And I would say that's an outstanding question. I feel likely not. (0:42:50)
Why would they put themselves out there like that to potentially get in trouble? However, they could have... John Greenewald So what motive would Doty... like, let's just say it was Doty off the rails and doing what he wanted. What's the motive? David Erickson Well, that's what's hard. In this field, there's a lot of people that come and tell us tall tales. And they turn out to be tall tales. (0:43:11)
They seem to be, you know, genuine, honest people. But they make up a bunch of wild, crazy stuff that turns out to be true. I think a lot of people fall for it, because they ask that question, what motive would this person have to make these things up? And I, you know, at the beginning fell for these things, too. Until you further research them now, I'm much more skeptical, maybe cynical about anybody who makes any claim, to be honest. (0:43:36)
So, you know, attention, I guess. I think he got maybe for, you know, he tried to lie to Bruce McAbee, there is no motivation for that. (0:43:43)
McAbee easily saw through it. Why did he do that then? Yeah, maybe it's just in his nature. Maybe he likes the attention. And he certainly gotten a lot of attention. I mean, he's really framed the belief system of hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people with this stuff that he's put out. So that could be motivation alone, the popularity, he's gotten all these interviews, he does all of these, you know, we're talking about him right now. (0:44:15)
So I don't know the motivation for sure. And I try not to necessarily, I think about it, but it's not something I can prove, you know, one way or another when it comes to motivation. So I can't say for sure. But we don't have evidence that he was told to do this either. And it could be something that he took upon himself, because he thought he was helping and then just ran with it, because he saw, you know, the UFO community was really running with it. (0:44:42)
It's really hard to say. And to button the story with Paul Benowitz, tell everybody what happened to him at the end. Well, he eventually passed. But yeah, like I said before, he was really driven. I mean, the stories that I've been told by some of the researchers who knew him back then and work with him, and the change from him being just, you know, a guy interested in UFOs. In fact, a lot of the colleagues he met, he was interested in cattle mutilation in the 70s. And I think you've got a lot of these records, the government actually looked into cattle mutilation, FBI, and they had these symposiums in the New Mexico area where Benowitz was there and met a lot of these people, including like Schiff, who was interested and Harrison Schmidt, the astronaut who was the other politician who went to Kirtland Air Force Base to ask about all of this. (0:45:36)
Harrison Schmidt was interested in these topics. So, you know, he really got to know people. But over time, he just was driven mad. I mean, like I said, he would just, you know, he would scream at people at the top of their lungs, you're a CIA, you're here to observe me and run into his house, he would board up his windows. And like I said, well, he would hide in his car in his garage. In fact, one researcher I know had to, he would come to the house, he was concerned, and he had to go into the guy's car to talk to him. (0:46:14)
So yeah, it had a hugely negative effect. And it's one of the concerning aspects of this with Doty as well, because even when he's interviewed, right now to this day, he doesn't show seem to have any sympathy or guilt towards that. He just says, that's what I was ordered to do. John Greenewald Oh, wow. So he maintains that the Air Force or the military made him do this. (0:46:36)
And that was his order. And he doesn't care what happened to him. (0:46:37)
Yeah. And there, the story has changed a bit. And I've sort of demonstrated that as well. He said there was a guy by the code name Falcon. I think he first he said he was DIA, who was the one who was telling him to do this stuff, which is kind of strange, because he was a Fosse. Which is, you know, also not really an intelligence organization. (0:47:00)
They're a law enforcement organization. In fact, you know, you got those a Fosse documents from where they examined Lou Elizondo and how those Navy videos got got out because they're law enforcement. They're not counterintelligence or spies, which is kind of how Doty frames his job as a spy. But this person, though, that for instance, they, this person allegedly showed up on this TV show and was blacked out. (0:47:34)
But it was, you know, one of Doty's friends that was pretending to be this person. And that's been well documented. So that this third party even exists at all is in question. And there's been no proof of that. His colleague William Moore, of course, claims that that's the case, too, that he met this Falcon person. But unfortunately, William Moore has been less than honest. (0:47:55)
And he's changed his story quite a bit this entire time as well. John Greenewald Yeah. Talking to you for the last 45 minutes or so, and hearing these stories, and and you telling the audience, it seems like we are seeing these stories unfold again, just with different way, just with different people, and in a different way. (0:48:16)
And going back to now the Wilson notes and the resurfacing of the MJ 12 documents and crash retrievals, and so on and so forth. And it's all just kind of unfolding around the promise that anonymous sources are telling, you know, a couple bloggers and writers and stuff, that these documents are legit. And this is world changing stuff. I saw another headline just before you and I started recording that this will, this is all going to change the world, this MJ 12 document, the Eric Davis stuff. (0:48:46)
And to me, as I have watched this unfold now for I would what about a year or so since since the Wilson leak popped online, the MJ 12 stuff document has been around for 20 years, I traced it back to 2000. That was the earliest I found that it was published online. So that part is nothing new. (0:49:05)
But as we see all of this resurface, and so on, and these anonymous sources, I keep smelling Richard Doty is one of the anonymous sources. And I hope, I hope that it that is not the case. And maybe I'm silly bringing that up. Have you gotten the same impression? I don't think you're silly bringing that up at all, because he's resurfaced recently. (0:49:30)
And I've been out there to warn people, because people say, Why don't you have Richard Doty on and I say, here's why, you know, I changes his story by the minute, you know, it's not worth it. And I send people the information. And some get it and some don't. But unfortunately, a lot don't. And even some of the people that we're talking about now, um, you know, put a lot into what Richard Doty has to say. (0:49:57)
And there's this excuse, well, you can't throw the baby out with bathwater. But we don't know what's baby and bathwater. (0:50:01)
And nobody's trying to figure out the difference. And that's the big problem. Why shouldn't say nobody, but very few, very few people like Kevin Randall, Robert Hastings, they're still out documenting some really good stuff. People like Paul Dean now are kind of carrying that torch. You have done some stuff along these lines. So yeah, it is a big danger. And, you know, the Serpo documents, that's one where Robert Hastings showed that this is another what looked ridiculous on the surface was another hoax perpetrated by Richard Doty, you know, and I think Robert Hastings wrote up the research that not just his research, but other researchers had found were tracing it back to him. (0:50:52)
So yeah, is it how and how easy is it, unfortunately, to say that you're an insider, and here's some information that I have, especially with people who don't understand the difference between hearsay, and the weight as far as evidence of hearsay versus, you know, firsthand witnesses, credible firsthand witnesses. So it is scary. And it is possible that there could be something there's also another thing, and I would love your perspective on this. (0:51:21)
There has been disinformation. I don't know that I would necessarily call it a disinformation campaign. Some people feel that it is and by the DoD against, you know, Lou Elizondo. There's been a lot of claims like he didn't work for a tip a tip didn't look into a lot of the claims he made to the New York Times and others that were denied. That's less than accurate information. (0:51:48)
Why is that? I don't know. I don't know that they're seeking to disinform. It could be miscommunication. There could be a lot of reasons. And I'm certainly willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. But if DoD is telling the truth, what if he is and he was told that, you know, told to start doing this way back when? John Greenewald Yeah, that's why I was curious if if information has presented itself that it was sanctioned by his superiors to go to your point about the Pentagon. Yeah, there is no doubt that they are putting out information that they're that they've changed. (0:52:24)
I mean, I've written a couple articles myself where they've, you know, changed their mind, they'll say one thing, then it's a flip. I think the way I termed it was a flip flop flip, you know, it was like, yes, no, it didn't. Yes, it did. No. And then they keep going back and forth. There's still a lot of unanswered questions, because I wanted to be fair on that. (0:52:43)
But when you look at what the Pentagon is doing, and now they've completely shut out answering questions, I've got a request for statement going back now over eight months to the Pentagon. And when Mr. Elizondo and I first started chatting just one on one, I can tell you that they were incredibly pleasant conversations. I feel that a lot of things got misconstrued on my skepticism. (0:53:09)
And I'm hoping that the audience who felt I was too harsh, hearing you talk about a lot of these decades worth of misinformation from people making claims and so on. I will admit I'm in the category of you just have to like shut everything out and question everything, even as paranoid as that sounds. Because there are so many things that have come along over the decades that, you know, again, we just can't verify at all, or they are tied to people that are incredibly controversial. (0:53:41)
Richard Doty, who changes his story all the time. That being said, when he and I, you know, first started talking, and we really kind of understood each other, like there were certain things that I was able to get answered right off the bat, I feel that he was able to understand my skepticism, because by his own admission, he never really dug deep into, you know, the the UFO community, per se, the Richard Doty's, the MJ 12s, and, you know, Aquarius document and so on. (0:54:09)
And so I think that is where we started understanding each other. Now, the whole reason why I bring that up, is that the information then from that first interview on the record that I did with him, I took that information, and and plopped it to the Pentagon after the fact, and said, these are on the record comments, you know, let's start digging into this. (0:54:28)
Because if you guys are really lying about this man, he deserves not only a public apology, but a lot more in my book, but on top of that proof that the if the Pentagon is going to make a statement, and it was starting to unfold that these guys and gals in the Pentagon, we're just not going to talk at all. (0:54:51)
And then that now paves the way for is this in an intentional disinformation campaign against what is now a movement, and essentially attacking one particular guy? I don't know what the answer is. If this was a obscure portfolio that no one knew about, could we potentially chalk it up to they made a mistake? And a lot of people didn't know about it. (0:55:14)
So they made statements based on erroneous facts. Sure. You know, I mean, we can chalk it up to that or is it malicious? And I don't know. All I do know now at this point is very much like AFO, as I did with you, seeking comment on the Doty story, the Pentagon is now doing on the a tip story. (0:55:33)
And and I don't have an answer to it. I wish I did. You know, I mean, at this point, I'm skeptical when my mom calls me I grill her for five minutes, mom, are you sure that you know, just to make sure because you don't know what's really mom. Yeah, I mean, we don't know what to believe anymore. (0:55:49)
So it's kind of up in the air. And that's the harm of these stories, though. Going back now talking in generality, that's the harm of these stories, that if you've been around for a couple decades, like you and I both have, and we see them over and over and over again, you go, Oh, geez, here we go again. (0:56:05)
But others are taken in by it. And it starts all over again. And that's what I'm afraid when it gets into the to the work of TTSA. Because regardless of my skepticism towards some things with them, I have zero doubt that Christopher Mellon played a role in that. And I know that they that they said that they did. (0:56:22)
I'm just saying, you know, hey, that makes a lot of sense. Look at the language they published. They're on the forefront of this. So what can go wrong with MJ 12? And Richard Doty stories resurfacing? That is my biggest fear. I don't know if you have that fear as well. (0:56:38)
Or do you think that this will just die on the vine? No, I certainly do. And the a lot of the proponents of this document are being very aggressive. And it's, you know, one of the big people, two of the big personalities who have brought this forward and made it as big as it is, are Richard Dolan, Grant Cameron, and I don't think either of them have been that aggressive and making everybody believe this or you've got to believe this or else. (0:57:06)
But certainly, which was kind of the problems that we ran into, we have followers who are very energetic and can be very aggressive. And a lot of those people are jumping in and you know, like, for instance, I'm getting her I mean, I think I could say harassed quite a bit about why don't you believe this? Why don't you believe that? And, and it's a couple reasons. (0:57:26)
First of all, I have my own credibility. And I have an understanding of how journalists work. So I can explain that to you guys. Even if I thought there was something to it, I would want to do a lot more footwork, a lot more research before I even surfaced that. So I would have something substantial to be able to, you know, demonstrate that, you know, this is more than just a rumor. So I think that that's, that's what people have to do is you know, keep this in what Santon Friedman called your gray basket and do some work on it. (0:57:58)
Doesn't mean you got to jump on it and believe it, you know, whole cloth. And we do have to be cognizant of, you know, are you going to push Davis or put off into a corner that is going to make them uncomfortable or even hurt their careers? Because if some of these guys are such big fans of both of these guys, you know, they've got to, they ought to consider that. (0:58:20)
And, you know, instead of looking for the big story, look for how can we as a community work on this and then, you know, get to the truth and maybe share some incredible, shocking information. And I want to say to those people, you and I are skeptical and cynical for the reasons we've just outlined. And we've been in this for a long time, getting into the dirt, you know, getting into the details. (0:58:42)
And I hopefully they can understand our perspective because I'm not trying to say don't look into it. Certainly not. I'm happy that people are looking into it. But just don't try to, you know, bash everybody over the head with it or, you know, hate on you or I because we're skeptical. You know, we all have important information to share. John Greenewald I don't want to make it all negative on this show. But I did want to really break down MJ 12 with you because I know you have, again, dug in deep on that the Eric Davis Wilson notes and so on. (0:59:14)
So let's leave on a positive note here in the last couple of minutes. What do you think the future is going to hold for this field for UAP awareness? (0:59:22)
And this hopeful, you know, fingers crossed, unclassified UAP report? How do you think this is all going to unfold? What's next? This is the most important news. And this is part of what so tracked out all of this is right now we've got probably the most important news we've ever had in this field. And here are people off, you know, wanting to distract us really with some of this other dubious kind of information that can kind of wait, guys, you know, right now, there's something more important going on in the Senate Intelligence Committee asking for UAP reports. (0:59:59)
I think this is going to be very positive. And there's a couple of reasons why. One speaking with Brian Bender from Politico, who is great insider, and then also my interview just yesterday with Miss Mellon. They're both very, they feel very confident that this is bill is going to get passed with that verbiage. Because you know, those are the big hurdles, the committee's seems to be cool with it. (1:00:22)
It's got to get passed by the Senate in general, then the House, and then the President has to sign up. So they think that's going to happen. So then the next big step will be and I feel like I interviewed John Alexander, and he gave a lot of insight into the details. Are they going to be able to force these people into it or get this information? Steve Mellon, or I mean, Chris Mellon, also in the TT talked about this a bit. (1:00:46)
And what he says is, you know, the Senate, or the Congress holds the power of the purse. So they can say, you know, if you want your funding, then you've got to do what we're asking and give us this information. So they've got several months to come up with the information. They've got until March of 2021, to submit these reports. (1:01:08)
So I think, you know, it's going to be terribly interesting. I've asked a few people what they expect to see in them. Chris Mellon, I think put it well in that he doesn't want to make any assumptions, or to set any kind of expectations for them or himself. So he just wants to see what they come up with. And I think John Alexander has been the same because things are so stovepiped. (1:01:33)
And that's why, you know, Chris Mellon's framing of the way to pursue this information, and it's great the Intelligence Committee adopted it, is that he's saying all of these intelligence groups needs to give us information. Things are so stovepiped that these people aren't sharing information with each other. And we want to know it all. (1:01:52)
What has everybody got to share along these lines. And so I think they're going to be sharing some really interesting stuff. I think we're going to see more great cases, the type of stuff I know you and I get really excited about. More official documents. I think it's going to be fascinating. And Chris feels that the Congress is very motivated that there are a few individuals that are motivated enough that they really want to see this through. So that's very exciting. (1:02:19)
John Greenewald It is exciting. And one thing for sure, I'm glad you're on my team in this hunt for the truth, wherever that leads us. And listen, I don't want to take up more of your time. I really do appreciate you joining me. I know everybody can reach you online at open minds.tv. I know you are also doing all sorts of things. (1:02:42)
In closing, what you know, give give people other websites to go to. I know you have a blog address as well. So So what's the best way for people to reach out if they want to do so? (1:02:50)
Unknown Speaker Open Minds.tv is the best. I've kind of had to reboot the website. It kind of died for a minute died on the vine there. So I'm in the process of updating that. But I've got my website Alejandro T. Rojas.com or on either of those sites, you'll also see my Patreon link. And so you can get access there. (1:03:17)
So I'm doing live streams, I'm doing articles, and I'm posting all of that information there. And I've got some exciting stuff. I definitely need to catch up on some articles about some of the cool findings that you've had. But I've got this interview with Chris Mellon and a recent one, one coming up with Lou Elizondo and some of the other major players on the mainstream side of all of this. (1:03:37)
And that's where I'm sticking. Because, you know, there's a lot going on there that needs to be reported on. And to really build on the credibility of this topic and make sure that this goes somewhere. And so that's where I'm going to focus on. Very good. Well, I wish you the best of luck. You know, you're always welcome on this show. (1:03:55)
You know, my phone number, feel free to call anytime. And like I said, we'll bring you back. But thank you again for your time. And thank you all for watching and listening. This is John Greenewald, Jr. signing off. We'll see you next time. (1:04:06)
(2024-12-21)