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Stanislav Grof, MD が自身の「誕生時体験」の理論を語る

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前置き​

Jeffrey Mishlove が Stanislav Grof, MD を招いてインタビューした動画。AI(ChatGPT 4o, NotebookLM plus) で整理した。

情報源：動画(30:25)​

The Adventure of Self-Discovery with Stanislav Grof

動画概要欄​

2,400 veiws 2025/05/24

It was recorded in about 1992.

Stanislav Grof の仮説​

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Me:

Stanislav Grof, MD が提唱した

  • 4つの基本的な周産期マトリックス (Basic Perinatal Matrices - BPMs)

について非専門家向けにわかりやすく解説して。

ChatGPT-4o による要約

スタニスラフ・グロフ（Stanislav Grof, MD）は、精神科医・トランスパーソナル心理学の先駆者として知られ、LSDセラピーや「ホロトロピック・ブレスワーク（呼吸法）」の開発者でもあります。彼が提唱した**「4つの基本的な周産期マトリックス（Basic Perinatal Matrices, BPMs）」**は、出生プロセスと人間の深層心理の関係を探る理論です。

この理論では、胎児から誕生までの経験が、人間の無意識に深く刻まれ、それが後の精神構造や人生のテーマに影響すると考えられています。

BPM I：子宮内の楽園（ユートピア）​

状態：まだ分娩が始まる前の胎児期。

  • 胎児は母体と一体化し、呼吸・栄養・安全が満たされている状態。
  • 「海に浮かぶような恍惚」「全能感」「宇宙との合一」といった感覚に結びつく。

心理的連想：至福、宗教的合一体験、完全性、宇宙との調和。 否定面：過剰な依存、現実逃避的ユートピア願望。

BPM II：閉じ込めと絶望（胎内の地獄）​

状態：分娩が始まったが、まだ出口は開いていない。子宮が収縮し、圧迫が始まる。

  • 胎児は苦痛を感じながらも逃げ場がなく、圧倒的な力に押し潰されそうになる。
  • 「出口なき苦悩」「抑圧・孤立・絶望」などの感覚が生まれる。

心理的連想：鬱病的状態、抑圧的環境、自己否定、無力感。 象徴的イメージ：地獄、収容所、罠、機械的抑圧。

BPM III：死と再生の闘争​

状態：産道を通って生まれようとするプロセス。強い圧迫の中で出口に向かって進む。

  • 苦しみと同時に「突破」「闘争」「自力で道を切り開く」体験。
  • 痛みと喜び、死と誕生、エロスとタナトス（生と死の衝動）が混ざる。

心理的連想：性的エネルギー、暴力、カタルシス（精神の爆発）、生と死のせめぎ合い。 象徴的イメージ：英雄の冒険、拷問、性、戦闘、火と水。

BPM IV：誕生と解放​

状態：胎児が産道を抜けて外の世界に出る瞬間。

  • 強烈な開放感と新しい世界への適応。
  • 「苦しみの果ての解放」「新生」「救済」などの感覚がある。

心理的連想：自己変容、霊的覚醒、再誕、生まれ変わり。 象徴的イメージ：光のトンネル、洗礼、救済、仏の慈悲、母なる大地の抱擁。

総括​

この理論では、「生まれる」という身体的な体験が、トラウマや神秘体験の深層構造として無意識に刻まれており、それが夢、幻覚、宗教体験、精神疾患などに投影されるとされます。とくにLSDや深い呼吸法などで意識が拡張された状態では、これらのBPMが象徴的に再体験されることがあるとグロフは述べています。

必要なら、各BPMに対応する現代の精神療法的解釈や、ユングとの比較、あるいはLSDセッションの具体例も紹介できます。

音声対話(by AI=NotebookLM plus)​

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/a56a83cf-b8ce-4791-b528-197f805f5124/audio

要旨(by AI)​

スタンシラフ・グロフ博士は、誕生の経験が個人の心理に深く影響すると論じています。彼は、基本的周産期マトリックスと呼ぶ4つの段階を提案しています。これらの段階は、胎内での穏やかな状態から始まり、子宮収縮による圧迫と閉鎖、子宮口開大による産道での闘争、そして誕生とそれに続く解放と再統合へと続きます。グロフ博士は、後の人生経験、特に幼少期の出来事が、これらの初期マトリックスのいずれかに個人的なアンカーとなり、個人の世界観や行動様式を形成すると示唆しています。

要旨

詳細ブリーフィングドキュメント：周産期マトリックス​

  • ソース: 周産期マトリックスより抜粋 (スタニスラフ・グロフ医学博士へのジェフリー・ミシュラブ博士によるインタビューの転写)

  • 目的: このブリーフィングドキュメントは、上記ソースで提示された主なテーマと重要なアイデアをレビューし、スタニスラフ・グロフ博士の提唱する「周産期マトリックス」の概念と、それが個人の心理や人生にどのように影響するかについて詳細に説明することを目的としています。

主なテーマ:​

  • 誕生トラウマの重要性: 肉体的な誕生の体験が、その後の人生における態度や人格を形成する上で極めて重要な要素であるという考え方。これはオットー・ランクが提唱した考え方に近いが、グロフ博士はこれに超越的な側面を加えている。
  • 誕生プロセスと周産期マトリックス: グロフ博士が臨床経験を通じて発見した、個人の体験を特徴づける4つの distinct なパターン（周産期マトリックス）と、それらが生物学的な誕生プロセスの特定の段階に対応しているという理論。
  • 周産期体験と共存システム (Coex Systems) の関連性: 周産期の体験が、後の人生におけるトラウマや経験を結びつける心理的な「星座」である共存システム (Coex Systems) の形成に深く関わっているという考え方。
  • 周産期マトリックスと超越的な領域: 誕生プロセスが、個人的な領域と超越的な（transpersonal）領域を結ぶ「ゲートウェイ」として機能するという考え方。
  • 生後の経験の役割: 周産期に形成された基盤が、生後の経験によって選択的に強化されたり、覆い隠されたりすることで、その人の心理的な状態が形成されるという考え方。

最も重要なアイデア/事実:​

  • 誕生トラウマは「個人的」領域の根源: ミシュラブ博士は、「個人的な経験に関する限り、誕生トラウマは根源的であると考えられなければならない」と述べています (0:03:30)。グロフ博士もその重要性を認めています。
  • 誕生プロセスは個人的と超越的な領域の間の「ゲートウェイ」: グロフ博士は、「誕生プロセスは、あなたが言及したその二つの次元の間の、ある種のゲートウェイとして機能する」と述べています (0:03:30)。誕生の体験は、生まれる経験と死ぬ経験を組み合わせることで、これらの領域の境界に位置づけられます。
  • ウィルバーの「プレ・トランスの誤謬」への反論: グロフ博士は、ケン・ウィルバーが提唱する、前個人的な体験（子宮内など）と超越的な体験を混同してはならないという考え方（「プレ・トランスの誤謬」）に対して、自身の経験に基づき異議を唱えています。「彼の重点は少し極端すぎると思う...超越的な開放、精神的な開放を経験している人は、回帰と進行を組み合わせたプロセスを経る」と述べています (0:05:15)。個人的な未解決の問題に取り組むことと、新しい次元が開かれることは同時に起こり得ると考えています。
  • 共存システム (Coex Systems) は感情の質で繋がったトラウマの星座: グロフ博士は、共存システムを「人生の様々な時期からの、その人の自尊心を傷つけた一連のトラウマが、ある種の星座、心理的な星座を作り出す」ものであり、「結合因子は感情の質である」と定義しています (0:10:22)。これらの共存システムは周産期の特定の側面に根ざしています。
  • 4つの基本的な周産期マトリックス (Basic Perinatal Matrices - BPMs): グロフ博士は、人々の体験に基づき、誕生プロセスに関連する4つの distinct な体験パターンを特定しました。これらは生物学的な誕生プロセスの特定の段階に対応しています。
  • BPM I (子宮内の体験): 「子宮内の一体感の経験」に関連しています (0:12:36)。ポジティブな体験であれば、環境との一体感、社会や自然との繋がり、基本的な安心感、自然なスピリチュアルな気づきに繋がります。ネガティブな体験（毒性のある子宮、望まれない妊娠など）であれば、世界に対する基本的にパラノイア的な態度や不信感に繋がります (0:14:18)。子宮は「全世界との経験のプロトタイプ」となります (0:14:54)。
  • BPM II (閉鎖された子宮での収縮): 子宮が突然敵対的になり、収縮が始まるが子宮口は閉じている状態を反映しています (0:16:25)。これは「視野のない苦しみ」であり (0:22:50)、「犠牲者の立場のプロトタイプ」であり、無力感、孤独感、世界の敵対的な感覚に繋がります (0:17:43)。
  • BPM III (子宮からの脱出の闘争): 子宮口が開き、収縮が子供を押し出す段階です (0:22:20)。これは「視野のある苦しみ」であり (0:22:50)、世界は非常に危険であり、戦わなければならないという感覚に繋がります (0:23:04)。この段階はまた、サディズムやマゾヒズム、そして極端な苦しみや痛みが強力な性的興奮に変換される側面とも関連しています (0:23:58)。
  • BPM IV (誕生と再生): 誕生が完了した段階です (0:24:39)。これは「死と再生の経験」であり (0:24:39)、穏やかで静かな「海洋性のエクスタシー」を伴います (0:26:08)。これは第一マトリックスの幸福な側面への回帰に似ていますが、苦しみや闘争の概念を含んでいる点で異なります (0:27:27)。この体験は、人生に対する基本的なポジティブな態度や、困難な時があっても人生には価値があるという感覚に繋がります (0:27:55)。
  • 生後の経験が周産期の基盤を強化または覆い隠す: 個人の生後の経験が、周産期に形成された特定のパターンを選択的に強化したり、覆い隠したりします (0:21:28)。例えば、虐待的な環境で育った人は、第二マトリックスの「犠牲者」の役割を強化する可能性があります (0:18:48)。一方、ポジティブな生後の経験は、第一マトリックスの「良い子宮」の経験をシステム的に強化します (0:20:15)。
  • 周産期マトリックスの組み合わせと複雑性: グロフ博士は、私たちは皆4つの段階を経ており、生後の経験も多様であるため、個人の心理はこれら全ての要素の複雑な組み合わせによって形成されることを示唆しています (0:28:33)。

結論:​

グロフ博士の周産期マトリックス理論は、私たちの最も初期の体験である誕生プロセスが、その後の人生における自己認識、他者や世界との関係、そして心理的なパターン形成に深く根ざした影響を与えていることを示唆しています。これらの「星座」や「アンカー」を理解することで、私たちは自身の心理的なダイナミクスや行動パターンに対する洞察を得ることができる可能性があります。また、誕生体験が個人的な領域と超越的な領域を結びつけるものであるという考え方は、人間の意識の深遠な側面を探求する上でも重要な視点を提供しています。

timeline と関係者

タイムライン​

  • 前世紀初頭 (時期不明): オットー・ランクが「誕生トラウマ」という概念を提唱し、それがその後のトラウマの原型であると見なす。
  • 第二次世界大戦中: ドイツにおける妊娠中の女性とその胎児が、爆撃などの極めてトラウマ的な出来事を経験する。
  • スタン・グロフの初期のキャリア (時期不明): ジョンズ・ホプキンス大学で精神医学の教授を務める。
  • スタン・グロフの初期から中期キャリア (時期不明): メリーランド精神医学研究所で精神医学研究のチーフを務める。
  • スタン・グロフのキャリア (14年間): エサレン研究所で研究員として過ごす。
  • スタン・グロフの研究期間 (数年間): LSDセラピーや強力な非薬物療法を用いた経験的心理療法を通じて、患者が誕生レベルに到達した際に4つの明確な経験パターン（基本的な周産期マトリックス）を発見する。
  • スタン・グロフの研究期間 (時期不明): 「周産期マトリックス」の概念を確立し、それが後に経験の凝縮系（COEX）パターンのアンカーとなることを理論化する。
  • ケン・ウィルバーの活動期間 (時期不明): 「事前・超事象の誤謬（pre-trans fallacy）」という概念を提唱し、子宮内の個人的な経験（事前）と超個人的な経験（超事象）を区別する必要性を強調する。
  • スタン・グロフの執筆期間 (時期不明): 著書「LSDサイコセラピー」、「脳を超えて」、「自己発見の冒険」を執筆する。特に「自己発見の冒険」では周産期経験について言及する。
  • 現在の時点 (インタビュー実施時): ジェフリー・ミシュラヴがスタン・グロフに「誕生トラウマ」および「周産期マトリックス」に関するインタビューを行う。

登場人物​

  • スタン・グロフ（Stanislav Grof, MD）:精神科医であり、インタビューの主要な話者。

    • ジョンズ・ホプキンス大学の元精神医学教授。
    • メリーランド精神医学研究所の元精神医学研究チーフ。
    • エサレン研究所の元研究員（14年間）。
    • LSDや強力な非薬物療法を用いた経験的心理療法を通じて「基本的な周産期マトリックス（Basic Perinatal Matrices）」と「経験の凝縮系（COEXシステム）」の概念を開発した。
    • 著書に「LSDサイコセラピー」、「脳を超えて」、「自己発見の冒険」がある。

  • ジェフリー・ミシュラヴ（Jeffrey Mishlove）:インタビューの聞き手。

    • スタン・グロフの著書「自己発見の冒険」を読んだ経験を持つ。
    • 「周産期マトリックス」を含むグロフの理論についてグロフと議論する。

  • オットー・ランク（Otto Rank）:精神分析家。

    • 「誕生トラウマ」を、その後のすべてのトラウマの原型として最初に捉えた人物。
    • ソースでは直接話したり登場したりはしないが、グロフが自身の議論の文脈で彼の考えに言及する。

  • ケン・ウィルバー（Ken Wilber）:思想家。

    • 個人的な経験（事前）と超個人的な経験（超事象）を区別する「事前・超事象の誤謬（pre-trans fallacy）」という概念を提唱した人物。
    • ソースでは直接話したり登場したりはしないが、グロフが彼の考えについて言及し、その視点と自身の視点を比較する。
文字起こし

[The following source is a transcript of an interview with Stanislav Grof, MD, conducted by Dr. Jeffrey Mishlove.]

Hello and welcome. (0:01:44)

I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Our topic today is the birth trauma. Is it possible that the experiences of our physical birth have conditioned our attitudes towards life today and even our personality? With me is Dr. Stanislav Grof, a former professor of psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University, a former chief of psychiatric research at the Maryland Psychiatric Institute, and a former scholar in residence for 14 years at the Esalen Institute. Dr. Grof is the author of LSD Psychotherapy, Beyond the Brain, and The Adventure of Self-Discovery. Welcome, Stan. Thank you. Nice to be here. (0:02:22)

It's a pleasure to have you here. You know, it seems as if the birth trauma itself might be viewed as the archetype or the epitome of all subsequent traumas that the human being might ever experience in life. I think it was viewed that way originally by Otto Rock, the psychoanalyst. Yes, for me, some additional dimensions emerged over the years, but certainly the process of birth seems to be one of the very significant factors in human life. (0:02:54)

We have, in our work, discovered some dimensions that seem to go even beyond that, which we now call transpersonal. Well, I suppose if one viewed the human psyche as consisting of personal, the personal realm based on one's life experiences, and the transpersonal, which deals with archetypal patterns and spiritual sources beyond one's own personal life history, that at least insofar as we're talking about personal experiences, the birth trauma must be considered primal. (0:03:30)

Yes, it's an extremely important factor, but at the same time, it functions as a kind of gateway between those two dimensions that you mentioned. The doorway between the personal and the transpersonal. And it's very interesting that the experiences that people have as they are dealing with the birth trauma combine two elements, and that's the experience of being born, but also the experience of dying. (0:03:55)

So in some sense, it's the beginning of human life and the end of human life. So it makes a lot of sense that these experiences are a boundary between the personal and the transpersonal. (0:04:06)

Well, as I recall, Freud made a great deal of the notion of regression back to a womb-like experience of oceanic bliss. And many critics of contemporary mystical, psychic, magical, shamanistic traditions often dismiss them by saying, oh, this is just a regression back to the womb. I guess you see that that view is somewhat narrow. Yes, I think there's also another tendency represented, for example, by Ken Wilber that puts tremendous emphasis on the difference that we have to differentiate, although there might be some similarity between just a regression into the infantile stages, whether they are early postnatal or whether they're prenatal, and the mystical, the transpersonal dimension. (0:04:59)

Wilber has called that, I think, the pre-trans fallacy, saying that we should not confuse pre-personal experiences in the womb with transpersonal experiences, which are, I guess, perhaps might be viewed as more cosmic. You seem to think that they're more similar than Wilber gives them credit. Yes, I think that his emphasis is a little too extreme. He presents it in a way that almost seems linear. (0:05:28)

You see that you have to first develop full integration of your personality before some of these other dimensions open up for you and that they are somehow fundamentally, qualitatively different. And I see it much more so that a person who is going through a transpersonal opening, spiritual opening, goes through a process that combines regression and progression. In some sense, you go back and you have to complete the unfinished things from your history and at the same time new dimensions are opening for you. (0:06:01)

What you seem to be saying is there could be something very positive about getting in touch with the infantile side of our nature. Yes, I think it's very significant, whether it is sort of working through some of the traumas that have imprinted us, that have programmed us, or whether it's discovering some of the very useful dimensions of a childlike experience of the world. (0:06:28)

I know when I personally think about my own state in the womb and try and imagine it, as I was reading your most recent book, The Adventure of Self-Discovery, I began asking myself how I relate to the experience of being in the womb. And my sense was that there was a very blissful quality to it for me, a sense of oneness, a sense of almost like cosmic unity, that perhaps in my life colors a lot of the work that I do and my approach to things today. (0:07:03)

But you point out that for other people, that same sense of oneness, of merging, can have a negative side. It can be sort of disoriented, schizophrenic, no boundaries. Yes, there is certainly, if you look at it statistically, if you work with a number of people, there is certainly a whole spectrum of experiences. And this sort of psychological dimension of that experience really reflects also the biological spectrum. (0:07:31)

I mean, the obstetricians know that there are pregnancies which are very good, which are what we call physiological, where the mother seems to be in a good biological, physiological condition. (0:07:44)

She seems to be in a good emotional condition. Her circumstances, let's say her marital life, her social life, are satisfactory. And under those circumstances, the pregnancy could certainly be a very positive experience for the fetus. But there are also pregnancies where for a long period of time it's not quite clear whether the fetus is going to survive. There are states which involve toxicity of the womb. (0:08:16)

There are states where the mother can be seriously ill. The mother could be under some kind of chronic pressure. She could be under constant stress during pregnancy. She could attempt to abort the child. So there could be imminent miscarriage, attempted abortion. Some of the pregnancies can be under very, very bad circumstances. For example, we have done a lot of work with people in Germany whose prenatal life was running at the time of the Second World War, where there was bombing, there were some tremendously traumatic things happening. (0:08:59)

So if your prenatal life was as good as you think it was, you're certainly very lucky, because that's not something that has to be that way. You've developed in your work as a personality theorist the term coex, to refer to condensed experience. Yes. It seems like you're referring, I suppose, to the lens through which we perceive our life and through which we create our life, that people tend to focus on some types of experience and to filter out other types of experience. (0:09:31)

You tend to suggest, as I understand your theory, Stan, that these coex patterns that each individual has are very much predicated on certain types of perinatal experiences. Perinatal meaning either before or right after birth. Yes, I think to clarify first what I mean by coex system, you know, in traditional psychotherapies there's the idea that we have experienced a number of traumatic things in the course of our life, and it's kind of a mosaic of traumas. (0:10:07)

Whereas if you work on these past issues using experiential psychotherapy, whether it's with psychedelics or some powerful non-drug techniques, what you'll find is that these traumatic memories seem to form certain kinds of constellations. So, for example, when somebody has problems with a self-image, in this kind of work what can come up is a series of traumas that have damaged that person's self-image, that come from different periods of that person's life, and they create a kind of constellation, you know, psychological constellation, where the connecting factor is the quality of the emotion. (0:10:47)

Sometimes it could be also a quality of the accompanying physical feelings. And this kind of constellation functions in the unconscious, and when the individual is under the influence of that constellation, it colors the self-perception, self-image of that person, attitudes towards the world, certain specific forms of behavior, and so on. And what is fascinating here is that each of those co-existence seems to be anchored in a particular facet of the birth trauma. (0:11:21)

And then you suggest that there are four basic perinatal matrices to which the co-existence might be anchored. (0:11:29)

Yes, what I found when people reached in their own process, sort of in their regression, when they reached the level of birth, I was noticing four very distinct patterns of experience, as if clusters of experience characterized by specific emotions, by specific psychosomatic manifestations, by a certain kind of imagery, which was very specific for each of these clusters. And it was actually people themselves who started relating them to the specific stages of the biological birth process. (0:12:05)

And so I sort of extracted somehow the experiential patterns from people's accounts, and I started referring to them as basic perinatal matrices. We've already touched on the first of these when I mentioned the experience of oneness in the womb. How would that, for example, in your experience, affect later life development? Well, that depends very much, as I already mentioned, what the experience was like. (0:12:36)

So if that experience was predominantly positive, and if, let's say, under the influence of later experiences, the individual is pretty much in tune with this memory. In other words, later experiences confirmed it, or reinforced that particular way of being in the world, then the individual would have, first of all, a sense of unity with the environment, a sense of being a meaningful part of human society, being a meaningful part of nature, being sort of a meaningful element in the universe, and having a sense of a certain kind of flow. (0:13:16)

Also a sense of some basic security in the world. And what seems to come with it is also a very natural sense of spiritual awareness that's sort of behind the everyday world of separation, which means individual people, objects, and so on. That individual has a sense of underlying unity or oneness. And that, of course, is essential for all the mystical traditions, to be aware of the fact that beyond the world of separation, there is some kind of underlying unity field. (0:13:50)

It's almost as if you're suggesting it might be easier to become a mystic if one has had a healthy prenatal experience and a healthy birth experience. Yes, you would in some sense almost have a natural sense of mystical awareness or mystical being in the world. And then, of course, if that was a very bad experience, if it was a toxic womb, if this was an unwanted pregnancy, if there were attempted abortions and things of that kind, that would create a basically sort of paranoid attitude towards the world. (0:14:30)

We have to realize that the mother really represents, first of all, the first sample of a meaningful relationship. But being in the womb, it also represents somehow a sample of the experience with the entire world. That womb is a prototype of the experience of the world. The amniotic sac becomes like the universe itself for the fetus. Yes, I mean, the total experience of existence is happening within that particular environment. (0:15:04)

So, in a sense, that experience imprints somehow some basic attitudes toward people, toward nature, towards the universe in general. (0:15:16)

Is the universe friendly? Can people be trusted? Can you be dependent and secure at the same time? So, I suppose, in a sense, if one perceives the universe as somehow unfriendly, it might be healthier or better for the person at some stage of their development to be able to feel separate from it rather than joined to it. Well, that's something that develops later, that people differentiate from this kind of unitive experience. (0:15:51)

They develop a sense of differentiation, but at the same time, as if this basic matrix, unitive matrix, remains with them. So, their sense of awareness of separateness, but at the same time, a sense of connectedness with everything. The second basic perinatal matrix that you describe is one of sort of being trapped in the womb. I guess at the time right prior to birth, when there's pressure to escape from the womb, but yet the possibility of doing that is not yet available. (0:16:25)

Yes, the second, what I call the second matrix, really reflects the situation when suddenly this environment, which was, when there was a good womb, was nourishing, was secure, suddenly becomes hostile. There come first chemical changes, suggesting there is some kind of change happening, and then they are translated into actual mechanical contractions of the uterus. So suddenly, that environment becomes oppressive, becomes threatening. We know that with the contractions of the uterus, there are also constrictions of the vessels that bring blood to the fetus. (0:17:12)

So, it also involves periods of suffocation, because, of course, oxygen comes through blood. So, there is an element of emotional threat and also real biological threat, depending on how difficult the delivery is. And the concomitant attitudes towards life, if someone becomes sort of fixated or anchored to that stage of perinatal development, might be one of helplessness, I suppose. Yes, it's a prototype of a victimized position. (0:17:43)

Being totally alone, being cut off from meaningful contact with people, with nature, having a sense of alienation, sense of loneliness, and also the feeling that the universe is basically hostile. Why do you suppose someone would become anchored at that level of development as opposed to the first stage? Yes, it's a very good question. Because, obviously, unless we were Caesarian born, we have been through all the stages. (0:18:14)

And we see that certain people seem to be under kind of selective influence of one particular matrix. I believe that one of the very significant factors here is the predominant quality of the postnatal experiences. In other words, let's say a person who was brought up in a situation that was victimizing. Let's say in a family which was a kind of closed system, where there was a lot of abuse, emotional, physical abuse, and at the same time the individual couldn't fight back. (0:18:48)

This seemed to reinforce or perpetuate the victim role that was at first experienced to an extreme degree in the perinatal process. In other words, a very traumatic experience in one's later development will then cause someone to emotionally reach back to the source experience that was similar to that. (0:19:13)

In some sense, a kind of mechanical model for that would be that the postnatal experiences create kind of bridges between the contemporary conscious experience and the memory of birth. If the postnatal experience was good, then there is something, again, that we can describe in terms of the mechanical metaphor, something like a buffering system. There's this overlay of good experiences. That material is still there, but it's not as relevant, it's not as available. (0:19:43)

This would be also the situation that I described earlier. Somebody who had a good womb and then a series of positive experiences, starting with a good bonding, a good symbiotic relationship with the mother during nursing and so on, a childhood that was secure and so on. That person would be living in such a way that the predominant quality of life systematically reinforces the original experience of the good womb. (0:20:15)

Whereas somebody who is living in a situation where there is, in childhood, there is loneliness, there is deprivation, there is cold, there is hunger and so on, there is pain, that person would be as if constantly reminded of the experience of the second matrix. I suppose it might be possible then, say, for a person who has had a healthy childhood, a healthy prenatal development, lived a positive normal life, if that person were thrust into a terrifying situation, a catastrophe or a war, for example, that might reactivate or reopen the early memories of being trapped in the womb. (0:20:56)

Yes, it's very important. You see, you can see all kinds of combinations. I mean, somebody can have, for example, a very good womb and a very bad delivery. It could be a very loving mother who wants the child, but the pelvic diameters are very narrow. And for reasons that are totally beyond the mother, the delivery becomes a very difficult experience. Possibly in the extremes, the child might almost die. Or there could be an easy birth and terrible postnatal experience. (0:21:28)

So we are talking here always about certain basic foundations which are laid in the early perinatal period and then the postnatal events that will selectively reinforce or cover up the different aspects of the perinatal experience. Now, your third basic perinatal matrix involves the actual process of birth, the sort of fighting or struggle to emerge from the womb. Yes, the most important distinction here is that in the second matrix there are contractions of the uterus, but the cervix is closed. So the child is sort of caught as if in a no-exit situation, in a kind of claustrophobic world where there doesn't seem to be any solution. (0:22:20)

And each of the contractions of the uterus opens up the cervix to a certain extent until the dilation reaches such a degree that the continued contractions then actually propel the child. So suddenly there is a movement or a certain perspective opens up. So the second matrix, to make it very succinct, is suffering without perspective. The third matrix is suffering with perspective. (0:22:50)

So instead of feeling lost in helplessness, one becomes instead locked in a struggle. Yes, you see the basic pattern which is imprinted here is the world is extremely dangerous and you better be strong, you better be tough. And this is a law of jungle, you have to fight for your existence. But you don't feel victimized anymore, it's not completely hopeless, you're just simply in a very dangerous situation. (0:23:18)

There are some negative sides to this. As I recall, you mentioned that this phase might also be an anchoring for such things as sadomasochism. Yes, there's another dimension which is not very easy to explain, it would take a while, but this experience in the third matrix is also a very, very powerful sexual type of component. And we know even from postnatal life that there seems to be a built-in mechanism in the human organism that translates extreme suffering, extreme pain, and particularly suffering that's associated with suffocation. (0:23:58)

It would translate it or transform it into a powerful sexual type of arousal. So we know, for example, that people who try to hang themselves and they were rescued in the last moment, they would describe that they suffered at first, they choked, and then suddenly came very powerful sexual arousal. And if it lasts longer, that sexual arousal can even transcend into a mystical, spiritual opening, which we see, for example, in martyr death, in people who are put through incredible tortures and suddenly they transcend and they experience rapture, ecstasy. (0:24:39)

Well, this seems very much related, in a sense, then, to the fourth basic perinatal matrix, which you mentioned, which is the actual process of birth itself. Sort of like a death and rebirth experience. Yes, when it's completed. But the third matrix itself is just the element of struggle. It's not quite complete. There's no resolution yet. The person is still locked in this unresolved conflict. (0:25:03)

Yes, it's very interesting because this experience can become ecstatic, but it's a very peculiar kind of ecstasy, which I call volcanic, or it's a Dionysian kind of ecstasy. It sort of reminds me of the religious martyrs, for example, in the Islamic and Christian faith, who whip themselves and torture themselves to achieve ecstatic states. You find it in the history of religion as the so-called flagellants, people who torture each other, torture themselves, in order to transcend. (0:25:34)

Also, clinically, you find it, you mentioned already, sadomasochism. You see, there are people who have to suffer in order to experience certain ecstatic sexual feelings. So it's this peculiar kind of mixture of pleasure and pain. And then birth comes, when we start talking about the fourth matrix. Then there is also a sense of ecstasy, but it's a very different kind of ecstasy. I call it oceanic ecstasy that can come. (0:26:08)

And that's an experience where you feel ecstatic, but at the same time you feel extremely relaxed, you feel serene, you feel tranquil. There's not a sense of this sort of volcanic storm or rapture. (0:26:24)

It sounds almost like a return to the basic blissful aspects of your first matrix. Yes, you see, when an adult relives birth, then what typically follows is a return into the womb. So the fourth matrix gradually changes into the first matrix. And there's also, biologically, seems to be a deep connection between, let's say, the peace of the child experience on the breast of a good mother, and experience in the womb. (0:26:57)

So it's as if after birth you can reach the state of the symbiotic union with the mother, which is postnatal, which is during nursing, and then suddenly it deepens and it starts having the qualities of being back in the womb. I suppose the difference, then, between the fourth matrix and the first is that the fourth is somehow more integrating. It would encompass the notion of helplessness and the notion of struggle, and contain it within a blissful state, rather than just pure bliss without any concept of struggle. (0:27:27)

Yes, what comes often, you see, is a redefinition of our basic experience of life. That means you remember, of course, all the suffering, all the pain, but at the same time you get some kind of meta-perspective. I mean, in some sense there's a deeper reality, you see, which you can build on or which you can trust. In other words, being in the body, being incarnate, means that you're going to have some tough times. (0:28:02)

It's not going to be always easy, but somehow there's a predominantly positive attitude. I mean, life is worth it. Consciousness, being conscious, is a fascinating experience. And I gather what you're suggesting is we look at these four basic stages or matrices associated with perinatal experience, is that each of us is in some way perhaps anchored to one of these four stages, and that we could understand ourselves better if we were able to see those dynamics in our own life. (0:28:33)

Yes, and it's a little more complex than that because, as you mentioned before, we all have been through the four stages. And we have also been through all kinds of things postnatally. Stanislav Grof, we're out of time now, so we'll have to cut the program short. Thank you so much for being with me. It was a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

(2025-05-25)