Robert Guffey の "Chameleo" 発言(2018-03-10 1of2) の整理

2025年5月17日 · 約115分

AI 要約 : 不可視技術と怪しい監視

ポッドキャスト番組「Where Did the Road Go?」のこのエピソードでは、ホストのSoraya氏が作家のRobert Guffey氏と、彼のノンフィクション本『Camellio, a strange but true story of invisible spies, heroin addiction, and homeland security』について話し合います。このインタビューの第1部では、Robert氏が、友人が遭遇した政府機関による不可視技術を用いた嫌がらせの奇妙な体験を語ります。 Robert氏は、これが麻薬中毒と結びつけられがちでありながら、軍事技術や監視とも関連している可能性を示唆します。彼らはまた、超常現象やUFOの報告に見られるような異常な出来事を説明するために、これらの技術がいかに利用されるかについても触れます。

前置き

Robert Guffey が最近、また新たな捏造話を引っ提げて再登場している。

そこで、過去記事でも取り上げた Robert Guffey の出演した過去の podcast 動画を AI(NotebookLM) で整理した。

Robert Guffey がこの動画で語った物語は全くの捏造話（その根拠は過去記事で述べた）で、情報機関の情報撹乱作戦の一端を担っているのだと私は判断する(*1)。

かねてから UFO 情報の撹乱工作の一旦を担っていると思しき Jacques Vallee もこの本を出版元に電話をかけて称賛している。Jacques Vallee は ARPANET（インターネットの基盤技術）の開発にも関与した科学者であり、先端技術開発の現場を熟知している（それゆえ、彼は投資家向けの技術顧問でもあった）。その彼が Guffey の語る技術的細部のデタラメを見抜けない筈はない。

(*1)

情報撹乱作戦…

US の敵対国家に「こんな凄い技術を開発・実用化しているんだぜ」というブラフ。
Richard Schonger は妄想家もしくは、情報機関が垂らした釣りエサだと見る。

AI生成の解説（音声対話）

https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/19847823-b4ba-4048-b7be-666e1c90964f/audio

Youtube 動画(1:23:25)

Robert Guffey on Chameleo： Part 1 of 2 - March 10, 2018

www.youtube.com/watch?v=KChvfDKNIpw

対話

Me:

添付ソースは動画の文字起こしです。事実なのか捏造なのかが定かではない物語になっています。この文字起こしを元に、内容を詳しく整理して。検索利便性のために、人名や地名などの固有名詞は英語表記のままとして。「話者が事実と主張している事柄」と、「話者の主観や想像」は区別して。

添付いただいたソースは、ポッドキャスト「Where Did the Road Go?」のエピソードの文字起こしであり、ホストのSoraya氏とゲストのRobert Guffey氏が、Guffey氏の著書「Camellio, a strange but true story of invisible spies, heroin addiction, and homeland security」について語った内容です。この本は、Guffey氏の友人であるDamien氏が経験した奇妙な嫌がらせと、それに関わる可能性のある技術や組織について、Guffey氏が調査し記録したノンフィクションであると主張されています。

以下に、文字起こしの内容を整理し、「話者が事実と主張している事柄」と「話者の主観や想像」を区別して詳述します。

書籍「Camellio」について

タイトル: Camellio, a strange but true story of invisible spies, heroin addiction, and homeland security。
著者: Robert Guffey氏。
ジャンル: Guffey氏によれば「Absolutely nonfiction」であり、これは非常に奇妙な内容であるにもかかわらず真実であると主張されています。
出版年: 2015年。
入手方法: 現在Amazonでは非常に高額な価格（1,000ドル以上）で転売されているため、ORBOOKS.com（O-R-B-O-O-K-S.com）から20ドル以下で購入することを推奨しています。電子書籍版もあります。
内容概要: 友人のDamien氏が、「wrong people」に巻き込まれ、「some element of the government」と思われる存在から非常に奇妙な嫌がらせを受けたという実話です。この物語は、失われた歴史、意識、超常現象、未解明のミステリー、代替思想など、様々な分野と交差すると述べられています。特に、現代のUFO研究において、実際に存在する秘密技術が異常な遭遇の一部を説明できる可能性を示唆しているため、重要な意味を持つとしています。
執筆スタイル: ノンフィクションとしてオーセンティシティを重視しており、特に会話の長いトランスクリプト（Damien氏との会話や、科学者Richard Schonger氏へのインタビュー）を含めることで、読者がこれが作り話ではないことを感じられるように意図しています。物語は時系列に沿って語られています。

Robert Guffey氏の背景

Guffey氏はフィクション作家でもあり、ノンフィクションとフィクション両方の著書があります。ノンフィクションのスタイルはフィクションとは異なると述べています。
コンスピラシーカルチャーに関心があり、これはOperation Mind Controlに関する最初の本「Operation Mind Control」の著者であるWalter Boart氏との友人関係に起因しています。
Damien氏とは高校時代からの友人です。

話者が事実と主張している事柄 (Damien氏の体験を中心に)

出来事の始まり: Damien氏への嫌がらせは2003年夏にSan DiegoのPacific Beachエリアで始まりました。
DoDラップトップ: Damien氏の家に滞在していたLee（本名Doyleとされる）という若者が、DoD（Department of Defense）のシンボルが表示されるラップトップコンピュータを持っていたことが発端となりました。
軍事物資の盗難: Lee/DoyleはCamp PendletonからAWOL（無許可離隊）しており、DoDラップトップ、イラク人将校の遺体から取った9ミリ銃、23個のハイテク暗視ゴーグル、そしてトラック1台を盗んでいたとされています。
NCISと警察の介入: ラップトップの電源を入れた直後、NCIS（Naval Criminal Investigative Service）の特別捜査官と名乗る女性Lita Johnson（仮名）らがDamien氏の家を訪れ、捜索令状なしに立ち入ろうとしました。その後、San Diego Police Departmentも現場に到着しましたが、両者は連携していないように見えたといいます。彼らはDamien氏や他のパーティー参加者が使用していた薬物には関心を示さず、特に暗視ゴーグルを求めていました。
Damien氏の逮捕と取り調べ: Damien氏はLeeと共に逮捕され、San Diegoの刑務所で約1週間、「Abu Ghraib treatment」のような取り調べを受けたとされています。当局はDamien氏がLeeと共謀して軍事物資をテロ組織に売却しようとしていると疑いましたが、Damien氏はLeeについてほとんど何も知らなかったため、協力を拒否しました。
釈放後の嫌がらせ: 釈放後、Damien氏に対する嫌がらせが始まりました。当初は「jarheads」（軍人風の男たち）による露骨な尾行や嫌がらせでした。彼らはDamien氏を尾行し、彼が入る店についてきたり、アパートの外に駐車してヘッドライトを窓に向けたり、夜中に車のラジオを大音量で鳴らしたりしました。これは後に「street theater」と呼ばれる現象に似ていました。
政府車両の証拠: Damien氏が尾行している車を写真に撮り、Guffey氏にナンバープレートを送りました。Guffey氏がDMVで働く友人にそのナンバープレートを調べてもらったところ、すべて「non-existent」（存在しない）という結果が出ました。これはそれらが政府車両であることを示唆しており、Guffey氏にとってDamien氏がパラノイアではないという最初の決定的な証拠となりました。
Lita Johnsonの関与継続: 嫌がらせの間に、Lita JohnsonがたびたびDamien氏を訪ね、「協力する気になったか？」と尋ねました。Damien氏はLita Johnsonの連絡先を持っており、Guffey氏もその番号に電話をかけました。Lita Johnsonは自身を名乗り、Guffey氏からの電話に驚いた様子を見せましたが、Guffey氏の質問（Damien氏が尾行されているかなど）に対して、直接的な回答を避けつつも、間接的に監視や関与を示唆する発言（例：「no one in my agency is currently following your friend」、「I wouldn't advise that」彼が町を離れることに対して、フードファイトの話を聞いて「that made us all laugh」と認めたこと）をしました。この会話のトランスクリプトは本に含まれています。
奇妙な現象の発生: 嫌がらせが進むにつれて、より bizarre な現象が報告されるようになりました。これらは薬物による幻覚の可能性も疑われましたが、Richard Schonger氏との面会によって技術的に説明可能なものがあることが分かりました。
- 壁に銃を持つ手のシルエットが現れる。
- 黒いエネルギーの塊が移動し、置かれていたジャケットを動かした。
- 目に見えない存在が部屋の中にいて、物理的な干渉（押される、話しかけられる）をしてくる。
- 浴室の鏡が動いている最中に、その中に小さな人物の輪郭が見えた。これはRichard Schonger氏によれば、技術が鏡をクローク（覆い隠す）できていなかったために起こる現象であると説明されました。
- 技術の不具合時に、空気中に小さな人物の輪郭や光点（auroras）が見えた。Richard Schonger氏によれば、これは技術が正しく機能していない時の見た目そのものであると説明されました。
- 部屋が物理的に大きくなったり小さくなったりするように感じられた。これはRichard Schonger氏によれば、光学迷彩技術で引き起こすことが可能であると説明されました。
- 電話中に周囲の環境音が突然消えた（騒音キャンセリング）。これはDamien氏の近くにあったATC（American Technology Corporation）という企業が専門としていた技術です。
- 部屋の中で物が飛んだり壊れたりした（ポルターガイストのような現象）。
- 窓の外の景色が、通常の風景ではなく、非現実的なSF的な風景に見えた。これもRichard Schonger氏によれば、光学迷彩技術で引き起こすことが可能であると説明されました。
Western Unionでの出来事: Damien氏が町を出るためにGuffey氏がWestern Unionで送金した際、パスワードを電話で伝えようとすると通話が切れる現象が繰り返されました。これは通話が傍受されていたことを強く示唆しています。
ビーチでの奇妙な体験: Damien氏はビーチで、見えない乗り物が通ったとしか思えない軌跡が砂の上に残っているのを見ました。また、不規則に動く「leap frogging robots」を目撃しました。Guffey氏は後に軍の展示会で似た動きをするロボットを見たことを述べています。
隣人の変化: Damien氏のアパートの隣人が、数ヶ月かけて一人ずつ新しい住人に変わり、全員がDamien氏に対して敵対的な態度を取るようになったと報告されました。
Richard Schonger氏との面会: Damien氏がインターネットでProject Cameleoという invisibility technologyに関するウェブサイトを見つけ、その開発者であるRichard Schonger氏にGuffey氏が連絡を取りました。Richard Schonger氏はGuffey氏が所属するフリーメイソンのロッジのメンバーでもありました。Guffey氏とDamien氏はRichard氏と面会し、Damien氏の体験について話しました。Richard氏はDamien氏が語った奇妙な現象（鏡の中の姿や空気中の光点）が自身の技術の特定の状態や不具合と一致することを認め、Damien氏が真実を語っていると確信した様子でした。
技術の盗用と訴訟: Richard Schonger氏は、自身の開発したProject Cameleoの技術が海軍（Navy）や陸軍（Army）に盗まれたと考え、訴訟やFOIA（情報公開請求）を行っていました。彼は10年前にSAICや海軍に技術を見せたものの、その後彼らは関心を失ったように見えたと述べています。
光学迷彩技術の用途: Richard Schonger氏によれば、この技術は単に人間をカモフラージュするだけでなく、心理戦（psychological warfare）の目的で人間を狂わせるために使用することも可能であると述べています。彼は特許にその用途（木を人間や恐竜、巨大なクモのように見せるなど）を記載したと述べています。彼はこの技術が敵国に対して使われると考えていましたが、民間人に対して使われる可能性についてはnaiveであったとGuffey氏は評しています。
企業の関与: Damien氏が住んでいたPacific Beachの近くには、SAIC (Science Applications International Corporation)やATC (American Technology Corporation)のような、エキゾチックな兵器や非致死性兵器を専門とする企業がありました。特にSAICは、Camp Pendletonにもオフィスを持ち、多くのMyLab experiencers（アブダクション体験後に軍関係者による経験を持つ人々）が何らかの奇妙な繋がりを持っていると、別の研究者Melinda Leslie氏がGuffey氏に語っています。これらの企業は、9-11後の潤沢なブラックバジェットを使い、監視や嫌がらせといった「surveillance role players」あるいは「government funded vigilantes」（政府資金による自警団）としての活動を請け負っている可能性があるとGuffey氏は推測しています。
Cubaでの事件との類似: Guffey氏は、Cubaで発生した、特定の音波兵器による攻撃が疑われる事件が、Damien氏に使用された可能性のある技術と同様のものである可能性を示唆しています。
他の事例との関連: Guffey氏は、この種の嫌がらせがDamien氏だけでなく、Mind Controlの被害者や、UFO研究における「ape men」の報告（David Paulides氏のMissing 411で語られる話など）と類似している点を挙げています。また、小説家Phil K. Dickも1970年代に同様の嫌がらせ（隣人の入れ替わり、電気が繋がっていないラジオからの音声）を経験したと、その妻だったTessa DickがGuffey氏に語っています。John A. KeelのOrganized Harassmentに関するノートも参照されています。

話者の主観や想像

Leeが盗んだ物について: 盗まれた軍事物資の量があまりに多いという懐疑的な意見があることに対し、「I don't know what to tell you, man. That's what he did.」と述べており、自身の直接の知識に基づかない伝聞である可能性を示唆しています。
戦車を盗んだ人物との関連: San Diegoで戦車を盗んだ人物もこの技術で拷問されていたと「suspect」（推測）している点。
Mr. Bigについて: 当局がDamien氏の背後にいる協力者を「Mr. Big」と見なしていると考えたのは、Guffey氏自身の「imagining」（想像）であり、「sarcastically」（皮肉を込めて）であったと述べています。
嫌がらせの動機: Damien氏が当局者を怒らせたこと、あるいは彼が薬物中毒者であることを理由に、実験対象として選ばれた可能性があるという推測を述べています。また、予測不可能な環境で技術の弱点をテストするために、Camp Pendletonではなく民間人（Damien氏）が選ばれたという推測を述べています。
SAICの場所の選択: SAICが「haunted」として知られるWhaley Houseの近くに位置していたのは、奇妙な現象を隠蔽しやすい場所であったためかもしれない、という推測を述べています。
「the list」という考え方: 9-11後のブラックバジェットや、監視を請け負う企業の存在を考慮すると、「the list」のような「paranoid」に聞こえる考え方も現実的であるかもしれない、という推論を展開しています。
Damien氏のParanoia: Damien氏が元々paranoidな傾向があったかという問いに対し、ヘロイン中毒は通常そのような幻覚を引き起こさないとし、嫌がらせが始まってからparanoidになったと見ています。また、嫌がらせがあまりに度を越すと、当局者がいなくなった後でもその人物自身がparanoiaによって勝手に追跡されていると感じるようになる、という可能性に言及し、それが当局者にとって都合が良いと述べています。
偶発的な通行人への反応: Damien氏が嫌がらせの最中に、偶然そこにいた無関係な通行人を当局者と間違えて挑発したり、乱暴な行為（スラッシーを投げつける、車を叩くなど）をした可能性があること、そしてそれが当局者にとって有利に働く（Damien氏が精神的に不安定である、あるいは危険人物であると見なされる）という推測を述べています。
ビーチの足跡やロボット: ビーチに見えない乗り物の足跡があったことや、leap frogging robotsを目撃したことが、単にDamien氏をフリークアウトさせるための嫌がらせの一環だった可能性に言及しています。
Richard Schonger氏のnaiveさ: Richard Schonger氏が自身の技術が民間人に対して悪用される可能性に気づいていなかったことを「naive enough not to understand that」と評しています。
UFO技術とProject Cameleo: Richard Schonger氏の技術が、UFO技術の「cargo cult version」（原始的な部族が高度な技術を模倣するように作り上げたもの）であるという見解を述べています。つまり、UFO現象が示す現実の技術を、人間が現在の技術で模倣しようとしたものであると見ています。

Me:

話者の語った主な出来事を時系列で整理して。

はい、承知いたしました。提供された情報に基づき、話者が語った主な出来事を時系列に整理してご説明します。

この話は、話者の友人であるデイミアンに起こった奇妙な嫌がらせの経験と、それに関連して明らかになった技術についてのものです。話者は、友人への出来事を調査し、後に本にまとめました。

以下が主な出来事の時系列です。

1950年代: リチャード・ショーンガートが軍務中にグアムで薔薇十字団員およびフリーメイソンとなる。話者のフィクション作品の一つである短編集『Spies and Saucers』は、この時期のコンタクティー文化の中で展開される。
1960年代後半: ジョン・A・キールのウェストバージニア州ポイントプレザントでの経験が発生。リチャード・ショーンガートがUFO現象に関心を持ち始める。
1970年代: テッサ・ディックがフィル・K・ディックと共にオレンジ郡に住んでいた際、後にデイミアンが経験したような嫌がらせ（敵対的な近隣住民、プラグにつながっていないラジオから個人的な侮辱の声が聞こえるなど）をフィルが経験し、テッサもそれを聞いている。
1980年代: ソニック技術を用いた状況が再現されたとみられる、人々に対する技術の使用が発生。
1990年代後半: 話者がウォルター・ボアートと出会い、彼の著書『Operation Mind Control』を読んでマインドコントロールや陰謀文化に関する知識を深める。
2000年代初頭（2003年の数年前）: サンディエゴで男が戦車を盗む事件が発生。話者は、この事件が後にデイミアンに使われたような技術による拷問と関連している可能性を示唆している。
2003年夏:
- デイミアンはサンディエゴのパシフィックビーチ地区に住んでいた。
- デイミアンは、友人を介して「リー」（後にドイルと判明）という滞在場所を探していた若者と出会う。
- ある夜のパーティーで、リーが国防総省（DoD）のノートパソコンを見せる。
- デイミアンはそれが盗品だと気づき、リーにすぐに立ち去るよう告げる。
- 数分後、NCIS（海軍犯罪捜査局）の特別捜査官リタ・ジョンソンと他の人物がデイミアンのアパートに現れ、捜索を求める。
- デイミアンは令状なしの捜索を拒否し、ドアを閉める。
- その後すぐにNCISとサンディエゴ市警察が戻ってきて、リー（ドイル）とデイミアンを逮捕する。
- デイミアンは1週間ほど拘留され、軍事装備の販売に関与していると疑われ、厳しく尋問されるが、非協力的だった。
- 7日後、デイミアンは釈放される。当初、彼らはこれで終わりだと思っていた。
釈放から数日後（2003年夏〜秋）: デイミアンから話者に電話があり、軍人風の男たちに公然と尾行され、嫌がらせを受けていると告げる。嫌がらせは、店やレストランへの追跡、アパートの外での駐車、ライトの照射、大音量のラジオ放送など。
2003年秋〜2004年初頭:
- 嫌がらせが悪化する。
- デイミアンは尾行している車を写真に撮り、話者に送る。話者は車のナンバープレートリストを知り合いに確認してもらう。
- ナンバープレートはすべて「非実在」と判明し、政府車両であることを示唆。話者はこの時点で、デイミアンが妄想しているのではないことを確信する。
- 嫌がらせは一時中断し、リタ・ジョンソンが再度現れ、協力する気になったか尋ねる。デイミアンが拒否すると嫌がらせが再開される。
- アパート内で奇妙な現象が発生する：壁に銃を持つ手のシルエットが現れる、黒いエネルギーの塊が移動する、服が動く、見えない人物が押したり話しかけたりしてくる。
- バスルームの鏡が動いている瞬間に、後ろに小さな人物の輪郭を見る。技術が正常に機能しないとき、小さな人物の輪郭や空気中の点々（オーロラのようなもの）が見えることがある。
- リタ・ジョンソンは定期的に電話で、協力する気になったか尋ねてくる。話者はリタ・ジョンソンに電話し、その曖昧な会話を記録する（この会話の全文は本に収録）。
- デイミアンがアパートの外の尾行者に食べ物の混合物を投げつける「フードファイト」事件が発生。
- デイミアンはリタ・ジョンソンとその上司とベーグル店で会う。この時、リタは彼らがデイミアンを監視していたことを暗に認める。
2004年初頭（1月〜2月頃）: デイミアンの体調が悪化（体重減少、血尿、口の中の金属味）。話者は電磁放射線中毒の兆候だと疑う。
2004年初頭: 話者はデイミアンにバンを買って街を出るための送金をする。送金のパスワードを電話で伝える際に妨害を受けるが、公衆電話を介してヒントを伝えることに成功する。
2004年初頭: デイミアンはバンを購入し、サンディエゴを離れる。
サンディエゴ滞在中（嫌がらせと同時期）: 話者は、デイミアンが「見えない小人」について語ったこと、アパートが大きくなったり小さくなったり感じられたこと（他の人も気づいた）、電話中にノイズキャンセリングが発生したこと、窓の外の景色が超現実的なSF風景のように見えたことなどを言及している。デイミアンは写真などで記録を残していた。
サンディエゴを離れた後（2004年以降、カンザス州ウィノナにて）: ウィノナに到着すると、嫌がらせが約3ヶ月間止まる。デイミアンはインターネットで不可視化技術について調査し、教授トシや「cameleo.net」というサイト、そしてリチャード・ショーンガートについて知る。
Cameleo.netを見つけた後（おそらく2004年〜2006年初頭）: デイミアンは話者にウェブサイトについて伝える。話者はショーンガートが自分と同じフリーメイソンのロッジに所属していることに気づき、連絡を取る。話者はインタビューを提案し、ロッジでの面会を約束する。
リチャード・ショーンガートとの面会（おそらく2005年または2006年）: 話者とデイミアンはショーンガートと会い、食事をしながら彼の研究室や技術について聞く。ショーンガートは、自身の「プロジェクト・カメレオ」技術について説明し、心理戦への使用、部屋の大きさの操作、窓の外への映像投影などが可能だと語る。また、過去にSAICや海軍が彼の技術に関心を示したこと、軍を提訴したことを明かす。話者がデイミアンに話すように促すと、デイミアンは自身の経験を語り始める。デイミアンが動いている鏡の中に見えた見えない人物の輪郭や、技術が失敗した時に見た点々（オーロラ）について語ると、ショーンガートは身を乗り出して、それが自身の技術の振る舞いと正確に一致することを認める。この面会によって、話者はデイミアンの語ったことが現実であることを確信する。
2005年後半〜2006年初頭: 話者は、ショーンガートに会う前の自身の疑念を反映させたフィクション版の物語を執筆する。
2015年: ロバート・ガフィーのノンフィクション本『Cameleo, a strange but true story of invisible spies, heroin addiction, and homeland security』が出版される。
現在（インタビュー時点）: デイミアンへの嫌がらせは続いており、最近ではコンピューターが破壊される事件も発生している。ショーンガートは最近引退した。SAICは分割し、バージニア州に拠点を移した。キューバでのソニック攻撃事件は、過去に似たような状況が起きたことの繰り返しのように思われる。最新のスパ戦争会議で、デイミアンがかつてビーチで見たようなぎこちない動きをするロボットが披露された。

これらの出来事は、デイミアンの体験とその背景にあるとされる技術、そして話者がその物語を検証し、本にするに至った経緯を示しています。

AI: timeline

以下は、提供された情報源に基づいたタイムラインと登場人物リストです。

タイムライン

1950年代: リチャード・ショーンガート、軍隊に所属中にグアムで薔薇十字団に入会し、フリーメイソンになる。彼は薔薇十字団の達人が姿を消せるという話に興味を持つ。
1960年代後半: リチャード・ショーンガートがUFO現象に興味を持ち始める。UFOがクローキング技術を持っているという情報から、既存技術でどのように実現できるかを探求し始める。
1970年代: フィル・K・ディックとテッサ・ディックがオレンジ郡に住んでいた頃、隣人が奇妙な技術を持ち込み、ラジオからフィルを侮辱する声が聞こえるなどの嫌がらせを受ける。隣人は時間をかけて全員入れ替わっていた。
1977年: ウォルター・ボアートがMKウルトラなどのマインドコントロール作戦に関する初の詳細な本「Operation Mind Control」を出版する。
1990年代後半: ロバート・ガフィーがウォルター・ボアートと出会い、マインドコントロールについて学ぶ。
2003年夏: ダミアンがサンディエゴのパシフィック・ビーチにある自宅で、友人を介してリー（本名ドイル）という男に出会う。リーは自宅に滞在する。
2003年夏: ダミアンの家でのパーティー中、リーが国防総省のロゴが表示されたノートパソコンを起動する。ダミアンはリーに立ち去るように指示する。
2003年夏: リーが立ち去って間もなく、NCISの特別捜査官リータ・ジョンソンと2人の男がダミアンの自宅を訪れ、捜索を要求する。ダミアンは令状を求めて拒否する。
2003年夏: 数分後、NCISとサンディエゴ市警察が令状を持って戻ってきて、リーとダミアンを逮捕する。麻薬があったにもかかわらず、彼らはナイトビジョンゴーグルに関心を示す。
2003年夏: ダミアンはサンディエゴの拘置所で約1週間拘留され、「アブグレイブ待遇」を受ける。当局は彼がリーと共謀して軍事装備をアルカイダに売却しようとしていると疑う。
2003年夏: ダミアンは約1週間後に解放される。
2003年夏: 解放から数日後、ダミアンはロバート・ガフィーに連絡し、軍服のような男たちに尾行されていると報告する。尾行は公然と行われ、ハラスメントが始まる。
2003年夏: ロバート・ガフィーはダミアンに尾行者の写真を撮るように頼み、ナンバープレート番号を入手する。これらのナンバープレートはDMVのシステムで存在しないと判明し、政府車両であることを示唆する。
2003年夏 - 2004年初頭: ダミアンへのハラスメントがエスカレートする。自宅周辺での見張りと騒音、シルエットの出現、不可視の存在による物理的な干渉、幻覚（部屋が大きくなったり小さくなったり、窓から非現実的な風景が見えるなど）を経験する。
2003年夏 - 2004年初頭: ハラスメントの間欠期に、リータ・ジョンソンが再びダミアンの自宅を訪れ、ナイトビジョンゴーグルのありかについて協力を促す。
時期不明 (おそらく2003年-2004年初頭): ダミアンが隣にいた2人の尾行者に食べ物の混合物を投げつける「フードファイト」が発生する。
時期不明 (おそらく2003年-2004年初頭): ダミアンがリータ・ジョンソンと彼女の上司とカフェで会う。ダミアンが「連邦捜査官とのフードファイトをやめたい」と言うと、リータ・ジョンソンはそれを認め、笑う。彼女はまた、パシフィック・ビーチを「掃除」する必要があると示唆し、ダミアンはそれが自分に向けられていることに気づかない。
2004年初頭: ダミアンは体重が減り、血尿が出て、口に金属の味がするようになる。これらは電磁波中毒の兆候である可能性が示唆される。
2004年初頭: ロバート・ガフィーは、ダミアンがパシフィック・ビーチを離れるためにバンを購入できるよう、匿名で送金する。電話越しにパスワードを伝えようとする際、回線が切れるなどの妨害を経験する。
2004年初頭: ダミアンはロバート・ガフィーがパスワードを伝えるためのヒントを電話越しに叫んだのを聞き取り、送金を受け取る。彼はバンを購入し、ウィノナ、カンザス州へ逃走する。
2004年初頭 - 数ヶ月間: ウィノナ、カンザス州滞在中、ダミアンへのハラスメントが止まる。
2004年頃: ダミアンはインターネットで「Project Cameleo」というリチャード・ショーンガートのサイトを見つけ、ロバート・ガフィーに知らせる。
2006年: ロバート・ガフィーがリチャード・ショーンガートに電子メールを送り、技術についてインタビューを依頼する。ロバートはショーンガートが同じフリーメイソンのロッジに所属していることを発見する。
2006年: ロバート・ガフィーとダミアンがリチャード・ショーンガートに会い、インタビューを行う。ショーンガートはカメレオフ・プロジェクトが心理戦に利用できること、部屋を大きく見せたり小さく見せたりできること、窓の外に画像を投影できることなどを説明する。
2006年: リチャード・ショーンガートは、SAICや海軍が以前彼の技術に興味を示していたこと、そして彼が技術の盗難を疑って海軍や軍に対して訴訟とFOIA請求を起こしていたことを明かす。
2006年: ダミアンが自身の経験をショーンガートに話す。ダミアンが鏡に映った不可視の人物や空中の光点について話すと、ショーンガートはそれを技術が正しく機能していないときの兆候だと認め、ダミアンの証言が本物であることを示唆する。
2015年: ロバート・ガフィーの著書「Camellio, a strange but true story of invisible spies, heroin addiction, and homeland security」が出版される。
2010年: メリンダ・レスリーと他の人々がアリゾナの砂漠にある地下基地で軍関係者に誘拐され、ハイブリッドのような奇妙な生物がいる実験室を目撃したと主張する。
現在も: ダミアンへのハラスメントは続いている。彼は最近、自身の意に反してコンピューターにミルクを注ぎ、過去の写真を失った。
時期不明: アダムというダミアンの友人もハラスメントを受けており、サンティ、カリフォルニア州の砂漠で毛深いヒト型生物が発砲しているのを目撃したと報告する。
時期不明: リチャード・ショーンガート、海軍から技術が盗まれたと考えて訴訟とFOIA請求を起こす。
現在: リチャード・ショーンガートは退職し、トップシークレットの資格も失っている。

登場人物

ロバート・ガフィー: この物語の語り手であり著者。ノンフィクション作家でありフィクション作家。「Cameleo」の出版時はCSUロングビーチで文学（SFクラス）を教えていた。陰謀論に関心があり、特にウォルター・ボアートを通じてマインドコントロールについて知識がある。ダミアンの長年の友人であり、彼の経験を調査し記録した。
ダミアン（作中での偽名：ディオン）: ロバート・ガフィーの友人。高校時代からの付き合い。ヘロイン中毒の問題を抱えている。リー（ドイル）との一件をきっかけに、謎の監視、ハラスメント、不可視の技術による奇妙な現象を経験するようになる。これらの経験が「Cameleo」の核となる。
リータ・ジョンソン（作中での偽名）: ダミアンを最初に訪れたNCISの特別捜査官。ナイトビジョンゴーグルを追っている。ダミアンへのハラスメントに関与していることが示唆されている。
リー（本名：ドイル）: ダミアンの自宅に一時的に滞在した男。キャンプ・ペンドルトンからAWOLし、国防総省のノートパソコン、イラク製の銃、ナイトビジョンゴーグルなどを盗んでいた。
ウォルター・ボアート: ジャーナリスト。「Operation Mind Control」の著者。ロバート・ガフィーの知人で、マインドコントロールに関する知識源となった人物。
リチャード・ショーンガート: 科学者、発明家。カメレオフ・プロジェクトと呼ばれる不可視化技術を開発したと主張している。トップシークレットの資格を持っていた。フリーメイソンであり、ロバート・ガフィーと同じロッジに所属している。ダミアンの経験の技術的な側面を確認した人物。技術が盗まれたと考えて軍を訴えている。
テッサ・ディック: 作家フィル・K・ディックの未亡人。70年代にフィルと共に同様の嫌がらせや奇妙な現象を経験したとロバート・ガフィーに語った。
フィル・K・ディック: 著名なSF作家。テッサ・ディックと共に70年代に奇妙な現象を経験したとされる。
メリンダ・レスリー: 自らを「アブダクティ（宇宙人に誘拐された者）」および「マイラブ経験者（軍関係者に誘拐された者）」と称する人物。ロバート・ガフィーに、SAICとの関連を示唆する情報を与え、自身も軍関係者による誘拐でハイブリッド生物を目撃したと主張する。
アダム: ダミアンの友人。彼もハラスメントを受けていたとされ、砂漠で毛深いヒト型生物を目撃したと主張している。
ドクター・ルドバーガー: 物理学者。リチャード・ショーンガートと共同で実験室を所有している。海軍が以前彼らの技術に興味を示したとされている。
リータ・ジョンソンの上司: ダミアンとのカフェでの会合に同席した人物。ダミアンが彼に感謝しなかったことに怒った。

補足:

上記のタイムラインは、提供された情報源に記載されている出来事のみに基づいています。日付が明確に特定されていない出来事については、可能な限り他の出来事との関連性から時期を推測しています。登場人物のバイオは、提供された情報源に記載されている内容に限定しています。

Whisper による文字起こし

This episode of Where Did the Road Go? is brought to you in part by our Patreons. If you want to become a Patron, go to wheredidtheroadgo.com. And now our show. Transmission start. Welcome to Where Did the Road Go? Join us as we wander off the path and explore lost history, consciousness, the paranormal, unexplained mysteries, alternative thought, and much more. We are present on the web at wheredidtheroadgo.com. Now here is your host, Soraya. Welcome to this edition of Where Did the Road Go? (0:00:38)

Tonight is the first of a two-part interview. I didn't actually realize this was going to be a two-part interview, but I had a really interesting guest, and it went way longer, and we probably could have gone into a third part if we really wanted to, but I'll just have him back at some future point. My guest tonight is Robert Guffey, and he has written a book called Camellio, a strange but true story of invisible spies, heroin addiction, and homeland security. (0:01:07)

And this has a lot of implications across the board in paranormal fields, especially in modern ufology, because it deals with some of the secret technology that seems to actually exist in the military that could explain some unusual encounters. Now in saying that, I don't mean that there are not actual anomalous UFOs, but it's more to the point that it becomes very hard to tell what's anomalous and what's not. (0:01:39)

And this book is a great example of that. I'll tell you, I loved reading this book. It's really good. It is not currently available on Amazon. And we talk about this at the end. Apparently there are copies on Amazon going for a thousand bucks or something ridiculous like that. You can get it from ORBOOKS, O-R-B-O-O-K-S dot com, for like under $20. And there's an ebook as well. (0:02:09)

It will eventually be available on Amazon officially, but for the moment it is not, and people are taking advantage of that and trying to sell it for ridiculous amounts. The second part of this is already recorded, so Patreons will get that pretty quickly. And there's a little extra segment we did too, which was just part of our conversation afterwards and I realized it would make a good Patreon segment, so I'm going to put that up as well. (0:02:37)

But yeah, this is a story about his friend who got mixed up with the wrong people and suffered some pretty bizarre harassment by some element of the government. That's I guess the best way to explain it. It's a very strange story and we get into a lot of different parts and how those parts intersect with other things. So I hope you enjoy it. (0:03:04)

Here's my conversation, part one of my conversation with Robert Guffey. All right, Robert, welcome to the show, finally. Thank you for having me on. And your book is Cameleo, a strange but true story of invisible spies, heroin addiction, and homeland security. (0:03:22)

And when did this come out? The book was published in 2015. So it's a couple years old at this point. Okay. And this is nonfiction? Absolutely nonfiction, though there are people who will try to tell you otherwise. Well, you know, you're a fiction writer. This is the thing, like I'm looking at your bio and you're a fiction writer and you're into conspiracy culture. (0:03:52)

Yes, well, that's true. The book I just published this past November is called Until the Last Dog Dies, which is fiction, which is about a humor virus. It's a virus, a pandemic virus that affects the entire world, that affects only the humor centers of the brain. It doesn't kill you, but it takes your sense of humor away. Oh, man. And it's told from the point of view of a stand-up comedian in L.A. And eventually he comes down with the virus and it starts affecting him as well. (0:04:22)

So it's kind of it has this speculative science fictional element at the core of it. But it kind of also emerges out of the Camilio experiences as well, at least on a metaphorical level, about taking someone's imagination away, their sense of humor, their spirit, their soul away. And that's where the idea came from for Until the Last Dog Dies. But I think if you read that, which is a novel, and compare it to the way Camilio is written, I think that a reasonable person could tell that they're written very differently and that the way I write fiction is different from the way that I write that I wrote Camilio or my first book, Cryptoscatology, that's also nonfiction and is very much different from my second book, which is called Spies and Saucers, which is a collection of novellas that all take place in the 1950s amidst the contactee culture at that time period. (0:05:20)

So I have two books of nonfiction, two of fiction, and I think that they're written in very different styles. The approach is different. The stuff in Camilio, I don't think that anyone could come up with it. It's so peculiar. In fact, that's one reason why I included long transcripts, conversations between me and my friend, who I call Dion in the book, but his real name is Damien. I include long conversations with him and also a very long interview with Richard Schonger, a scientist, because I think you can read that and see that this is not dialogue that anyone would make up if you were writing a stage play or a screenplay. (0:06:07)

I try to edit it down as little as possible so that you could... that authenticity would be obvious to the reader. And I will say, this is actually a very hard book to put down. It kind of shows that you have that fictional writing ability, because there's a lot of books I'll read on this type of stuff that are very dry. (0:06:32)

And they're good books, but I could stop at the end of any chapter and be like, OK, I'll read the rest of that tomorrow. With this one, I'm going, I'll just read one more chapter. I'm like, it's like reading a fiction book. (0:06:39)

I want to see what comes next. Well, that's a huge compliment, because one of the main things I wanted to do to accomplish with the book was to make it entertaining, because so often books are about conspiratorial subjects such as this. It can sort of seem like the eccentric guy on the park bench with the bullhorn yelling at you about the coming new world order. (0:07:07)

And it's easy to just walk right on past that guy. And so people don't like being preached at. They don't like being lectured at either. So my intent was, I'm going to tell this like a story. And the thing is, I spent many years trying not to think about any of this, because, of course, it all began in 2003 and spilled over into 2004 and even past that. (0:07:37)

I think we interviewed Richard Schongert, which we'll get to later, in 2006. So theoretically, I could have written the book back in 2006 or 2007, but I was really just trying not to think about it. And I really didn't know how to approach the story anyway, because it seemed so complicated and bizarre. I didn't really know where to begin. (0:08:02)

But I mentioned at the end of the book that I was teaching a literature science fiction class at CSU Long Beach. And it just so happened that after class one day, a student came up to me and said, Can you think of an idea, a science fictional idea that people think of as science fiction, but it really isn't? And immediately I thought of invisibility, which plays a role in this story. (0:08:23)

And I began telling him the story just extemporaneously. And I stood there in the hallway telling him the story. It took about 40 minutes or something, and his jaw was hanging. And he said, Professor, please, our next class period, tell that story again to the entire class. I said, okay. And so the next class period, he asked me to tell the story, and I did. (0:08:47)

And oddly enough, it just so happened that there was a student in my class who was part of the ROTC. He would come to class every day in full military uniform. He was always very polite. He'd call me sir at the beginning of each sentence. And everyone in the class, I told them the story, and everyone in the class was just sitting there thinking, they looked like they had blank stares on their faces. (0:09:12)

And then this guy in the ROTC, he raises his hand, he says, sir, everything that you've just said overlaps with things that I've heard in my training. I can't say exactly what that is, of course, because we were sworn to secrecy. But the things that you said correlate very precisely with what I heard. And then everyone sort of became less skeptical at that point. (0:09:32)

But right after that class period, I left the classroom and I crouched down the hallway and I pulled a notebook out of my bag and bullet points, wrote down everything I had said and the order I said it in as a kind of outline. And it took up like two full sides of two pages. And that became the outline for the book. Somehow talking it out made me realize, oh, that's how to tell the story. (0:09:54)

Just take it from the top chronologically and barrel right through it. And fortunately, I had a lot of notes from that time period. I just that's the kind of person I am. I take a lot of notes. So I have a lot of notes. I had tape recordings of me talking to Damien, talking to Richard Schoengerd, me telling the story to other people on the phone. (0:10:15)

I had gone out of my way to record some of my own telephone conversations just to have all the facts down. Because, of course, as time goes on, you forget certain things. (0:10:26)

And I'm very glad I did that because I had that stuff to draw upon in order to write the book. Nice. How did you... and you actually did write a fictional version of this story, too, that you tried to get published. Oh, yes. In fact, it's kind of interesting. I haven't looked at that in a long time. But it probably would be interesting to read it now after having written Camellio because that book, that novel, was written in, I think, 2006, right before. (0:11:06)

It was 2005, beginning of 2006, right before I met Richard Schoengerd, who is the figure who confirms everything that Damien had been telling me up to that point. And so, since it was written before I met Richard, there was still a kind of doubt in my mind whether or not... was this all real? Or was this a product of hallucination? You don't really want to believe that this could be happening. (0:11:37)

So I tried to go out of my way to believe that it wasn't, that there was a slight possibility that it wasn't true. And so I actually wrote that novel right before meeting Richard. So if you read that book, which is not published, and I haven't even really looked at it in a long time, it's written in such a way where what's happening to the characters, the characters themselves are not sure if this is really happening or not. (0:12:05)

So it would be kind of interesting as an artifact to read that, because that's kind of where my head was at before I sat down with Damien and spoke to Richard at great length about his technology, which was stolen and used against my friend Damien. How did you get interested in conspiracy culture to begin with? That's interesting because I suspect that a lot of people who are targeted, a lot of them have a problem with even maintaining relationships with the people they used to know before all this began, because family members abandoned them, spouses abandoned them, children, friends, because they think that they've gone crazy, they've gone nuts. (0:12:50)

In this particular instance, the reason I was able to write the book is because I already had somewhat of a background in this kind of material, because I was friends with Walter Boart. Walter Boart wrote the book Operation Mind Control back, which was published in 77. That was the first book about the mind control operations, the MKUltra. That was the first book that really went into detail about how invasive these experiments had been. (0:13:25)

And not only that, Walter went out of his way to point out that these weren't just experiments. Hence the title of the book, Operation Mind Control. It was operational. It wasn't just experiments. So we tested LSD on some of our own people, and it got out of control, and Frank Olson jumped out of a window and accidentally killed himself. It went beyond that to say, no, this is operational. (0:13:53)

It was operational in Vietnam. In fact, that's how Walter started investigating it himself. He had a cousin who had gone to Vietnam, and he came back with what Walter described as, quote, cardboard memories, unquote. Meaning that they had taken his cousin, and they had taken out his memories, turned him into a programmed assassin, just like the Manchurian candidate. (0:14:15)

He'd killed a bunch of people, a remote control killer, and then sent them back home. And the only way to put his memories back in were by showing him photographs of what his childhood had been like. But there was no sensory details connected to those images, hence Walter Boer described it as cardboard memories. He could see still images in his mind of what he looked like as a child or what the house looked like that he grew up in, but he couldn't remember anything beyond that. So he was really like a brain-dead case. (0:14:51)

And Walter was so haunted by this that he began investigating it, discovering it had happened to many, many other people. And out of that grew Operation Mind Control. And then I met Walter in the late 90s and read his book. And so I was very familiar with mind control and that whole milieu. And I had read The Control of Candy Jones, which Candy Jones claimed that she was also a hypnoprogrammed agent for the U.S. military. (0:15:32)

And also books like The Transformation of America by Kathy O'Brien, which oddly enough, I remember sharing with Damien and Damien critiquing it, thinking it was a little too way out there. I remember Damien saying, this reads like porn for right-wingers. It was so detailed in Kathy O'Brien's alleged sexual encounters with Hillary Clinton, et cetera, that he said, it reads like pornography for right-wingers, that right-wingers can read this and be disgusted at it and get turned on at the same time. (0:16:04)

And that was Damien's critique of it, which there might be some validity to that. (0:16:09)

But so he was actually quite skeptical of any conspiracy theory that was like a little too outlandish. In retrospect, if you go back and read Kathy O'Brien's book, it's like, well, a lot of the things that seemed outlandish actually turned out to be true later on. So I don't know. And so maybe we can get into that a little bit later. So it's kind of ironic that Damien was a little bit skeptical about certain conspiracy theories and then ended up being in the middle of one. (0:16:41)

But as a result of my background with Walter Bohart, I was kind of willing to accept the initial premise of what he was telling me. But so even though I knew about mind control, I was not at all familiar with this whole gang stalking phenomenon. That was something that was totally new to me. I'd never heard anything about that. Well, let's start at the beginning with Damien and how that all started out. (0:17:06)

And you've known him since high school. Yes, yes. We met on my 16th birthday. Oh, and he does have a bit of a problem with drugs, it seems. Yes, definitely. And again, that's another reason why someone like Damien wouldn't be believed. Because if you're a drug addict, immediately you would just assume, oh, well, they're just hallucinating. (0:17:34)

People who aren't experienced with drugs tend to think that all drugs are exactly the same. So, you know, I mean, Damien was a heroin addict. That was his main thing, which generally doesn't cause wild-ish psychoactive hallucinations, you know. So in Damien's case, he was living in the Pacific Beach area of San Diego around this time, 2003. It was the summer of 2003. And his house was kind of a party house, people coming in and out all the time. (0:18:10)

And he, through a friend, met this kid who needed a place to stay. And so Damien was like, what the hell? Sure, you know, you can crash on my couch or whatever. And the guy's name was Lee, or at least that's what he said his name was. And one night, Damien's having this party. There's people doing all sorts of drugs. And Lee pulls out this laptop computer and turns it on, and the DoD symbol flashes on the screen. (0:18:45)

And at that moment, Damien said, OK, wait a minute. Hold on here. Pack up your stuff and just get the hell out. Because he immediately recognized that this was stolen property, which in fact it was. It turned out that Lee had gone AWOL from Camp Pendleton and had taken with him a DoD laptop computer, a nine millimeter Iraqi gun that was taken off the body of a dead Iraqi general, 23 pairs of high tech night vision goggles, and apparently an entire truck. (0:19:16)

And some people will criticize the story and say that's impossible. There's no way that a kid could have gone AWOL from Camp Pendleton and taken all that stuff. I don't know what to tell you, man. That's what he did. And he took all that stuff. But also if you go back on YouTube, just punch in like Tank and San Diego, you'll see that about a few years before all of this, a guy living in the same exact area that Damien was living in, Pacific Beach, went, quote, crazy, unquote, stole a tank from an armory and drove it right down the middle of San Diego and ended up getting stuck on the freeway. (0:19:54)

The cops broke through the top of the tank and just shot him where he was sitting. And apparently the guy wanted to go to City Hall to make a statement about something. And as I say in the book, I suspect that he also was being tortured with this technology. So that guy managed to steal a whole tank. (0:20:13)

You know, so I'm not that skeptical that the guy could steal night vision goggles. So he turns on the laptop computer, the DOD symbol flashes on, Damien tells him to get the hell out. The kid says, oh, don't worry about this. They can't track this stuff. (0:20:25)

Then within minutes, there's a knock at the door. Damien opens it and there's a woman standing there. She identifies herself, a special agent, Lita Johnson of the NCIS. That's a made up name. I have her real name and contact information. She's there with two other goons and they say they want to search the apartment. And Damien grew up in the house of a narcotics cop, which is ironic since he later became a heroin addict. (0:20:59)

But so he was very familiar with his rights as a U.S. citizen. And he said, well, do you have a warrant? She said, no, but I can come back with one very quickly. He said, well, come back when you have a warrant. And he slams the door in her face, tells everyone who's busy doing drugs right there in front of him, pick up your stuff and go out the back door. (0:21:22)

And they all immediately throw their stuff onto the floor and go out the back door when they saw that there was heat in the area. And within minutes, a very short period of time, the NCIS comes back, as does the San Diego Police Department. They show up too on the scene, though, according to Damien, it seemed like they weren't working together. They're really like bumping into each other, Keystone Cop style. (0:21:45)

Didn't seem to be working with each other. And even though there's drugs all over the place, they didn't seem to care about that at all. What this particular NCIS agent wanted were these night vision goggles. That was of the utmost importance. And they arrest this kid Lee and they arrest Damien. They take both of them down to the San Diego jail and proceed to give Damien the Abu Ghraib treatment for about a week. (0:22:16)

Damien, they tell him that this kid Lee, that his name is not Lee, that his name is Doyle. They think that Damien is somehow involved in the sale of this military equipment, as if Damien and this kid were in league with each other to sell this equipment to Al-Qaeda. And Damien's trying to tell them, I don't even know the guy. (0:22:40)

I didn't know his name was Doyle. And he was just sleeping on my couch. But they couldn't accept that. I mean, there's huge Kafka-esque qualities to this story. And Damien's trying to convince them, no, he's just a friend of a friend. I don't know anything about this. They wanted him to cooperate. And Damien's not the most cooperative person on the planet in the first place. (0:23:07)

So I could see how that probably went south very quickly. He's been in and out of prison his entire life, and it's ingrained in him not to snitch. That's the worst possible thing you can do. So there was nothing he was going to say. Even if he did know anything about it, he wouldn't have cooperated. So eventually though, after about a week, they let Damien go. (0:23:32)

Now around this time, I was trying to call him. When the day that he was arrested, I had tried to call him, and no one answered the phone. I left a message. He didn't call back the next day or the next day. And after a few days, I began to wonder what had happened, because he usually called me back. And so after seven days, he finally calls back, and he tells me this insane story that he'd been arrested and all of this. (0:23:58)

We both assume that that's the end of the story. They realize Damien didn't have anything to do with it, and they just let him go, and that's the end of it. (0:24:01)

A couple days later, he calls me back to tell me that there are just hordes of jarheads, military-looking dudes, following him around the city. And the way he described it at first was that there was like a dozen of these guys following him around, and being very obvious about it. A parade of people who would follow him into 7-Eleven, then follow him out again. (0:24:25)

He'd go to the Mexican restaurant down the street. They would sit at all the tables around him and stare at him. And then he'd go home, and they'd park in the parking lot outside the apartment building and just shine their headlights through his window. They'd blare the car radio at 3.30 a.m. right outside his apartment. And it started with really sort of, quote, mundane, unquote, harassment like that. (0:24:54)

When he first started telling me about it, I wondered myself, is this some sort of myth-induced paranoia? Which is certainly possible. People who take myth have paranoia, and they think that people are following them. So I wondered if maybe, even though he'd never exhibited any signs like that before this moment, maybe this is the breaking point. (0:25:18)

So I asked him, I said, why don't you take photographs of the people who are following you? And you say there are these cars following you around. They're parked outside your apartment. Take photographs and send them to me. So he did that. And I wrote all the license plate numbers down and sent the list to a friend of mine up in Seattle who worked for the DMV. He ran all the numbers through the system, and all of them came back as non-existent, which didn't make any sense to me because I knew they existed. (0:25:52)

And if Damien was being paranoid, they would come up as real vehicles, people living in San Diego. But they didn't come up at all. They were officially non-existent. And the only way that could be is if they were government vehicles. So that was like the first indication that that list of license plate numbers is in the book. That was the first indication to me that, OK, no, he's not being paranoid. (0:26:17)

Then as the thing progresses, he starts telling me about how their harassment is getting worse and worse. And what would happen is, this would be a continuous thing. And this woman, this NCIS woman, Lita Johnson, all the people who were parked outside his house and harassing him, they would suddenly pull away. (0:26:46)

And then Lita Johnson comes up, goes up to the door, knocks on the door, and says, have you changed your mind? Are you willing to cooperate now and tell us where these night vision goggles are? And Damien would say, I can't do that because I don't know where they are. And then she would say, well, if you change your mind, call my number. (0:26:59)

And she gives him her card. She and her two goons get back in the car and drive away. (0:27:05)

Then all the cars come back and they start turning on the car radio again, shining the lights through the window, and all the harassment starts up all over again. And it was very complicated. I mean, this was what they call, at the time, the term gang stalking didn't even exist. (0:27:29)

In 2003, people were calling it, quote, street theater because of the way that it's almost a performance. Two people will be walking behind you, talking about you, saying private details about your life as if you're not there. Then you'll get on the bus, and there's two people on the bus, and they continue the conversation or repeat the words that you heard an hour before. (0:27:51)

And so he's telling me all this. By the way, I should point out that in this area, in Pacific Beach, his apartment is right next to a corporation at that time. It's since moved. At that time, it was a corporation called Science Applications International Corporation, SAIC, that was within pretty much walking distance of his apartment on Garnet Avenue. There was another corporation called ATC, American Technology Corporation, and both of these corporations specialize in creating exotic weaponry, noise cancellation weaponry, quote, non-lethal weapons. (0:28:33)

So Damien, the harassment gets more and more bizarre to the point where he'll be lying in bed, and a silhouette of a hand holding a gun would appear on the wall above his head and then tilt downward so that the silhouette of the gun was pointing at his head. He saw this amorphous mass of black energy crawl across the carpet, crawled into his leather jacket that was laying on the carpet, and then the leather jacket started moving. (0:29:10)

Oddly enough, I've spoken to a lot of people who were supposedly alien abductees who've reported similar phenomenon, that crawling black energy thing. Then he tells me that there's people in the house who he cannot see who are interacting with him, pushing him over, talking to him. This, again, sounds like classic schizophrenia. At one point, he opened the bathroom mirror in the medicine cabinet, and as the mirror was in motion, he could see briefly the outline of a person behind him, a little person. (0:29:52)

Occasionally, the technology would break down, and he would see an outline of a very small person, kind of like auroras. Some people who suffer from migraine headaches report seeing these auroras in the air. That's kind of like what they look like, but the outline of a small person, dots in the air. Then, Lita Johnson would call again. (0:30:22)

Have you changed your mind? No, you haven't changed your mind yet? It would start all over again. At one point, I asked Damien, why don't you give me her phone number? She'd given it to him. She said, call me when you've changed your mind. I said, give me the phone number. Half because I just wanted to make sure that she was real. (0:30:49)

I called her. She answered the phone. She identified herself. I told her who I was. She seemed really put off that I was calling her and asking. She seemed really surprised that anyone was calling her to talk about this. I said, well, my friend claims that he's being followed. I got a series of CYA answers, like listening to Hillary Clinton speak. (0:31:18)

Just a lot of legalese, going out of your way, verbal acrobatics to avoid actually answering the question. For example, when I said, is my friend being followed? (0:31:24)

She goes, no one in my agency is currently following your friend. I'm sure that that's a true statement. I said, well, then is it okay for Damien to leave town? Because I don't want him to do anything illegal. She said, I wouldn't advise that. I go, well, if you're not interested in him and there's no case against him, why would you advise that he not leave town? She goes, well, it just might make things difficult later on. (0:32:07)

She was very annoyed that I called. She implied that Damien was crazy. The conversation didn't end well. The whole transcript of that conversation is also in the book. Then there was the case of the food fight where Damien was in his kitchen making lunch and there's two jarheads right outside his window talking to each other about Damien. So Damien starts putting in like spaghetti and pasta and then he just starts throwing in like baking soda and Jell-O and peanut butter and he's mixing it all together, pudding. (0:32:45)

He mixes it all together in this weird sticky goo and then runs outside and throws the pot of goo over the fence and it hits both of these jarhead guys on the head and they're covered in this weird goo and they just go running off into the parking lot. It's like the Vons that was next door, which is later on actually led to the only moment where Leta Johnson actually admitted that they were watching him because Damien got it into his head that it would be a really good idea to contact Leta and ask her if they could meet for lunch because he said to me, I'm going to offer my services that I can maybe help track down the goggles and then they'll stop harassing me. (0:33:31)

And I said, that's insane. They're just going to think that you've had them all along and you've been holding out on them this whole time. No, no, no, no, no, no. This will be good. It'll show them my good faith. So he does meet with them and that meeting didn't go well at all. Leta Johnson was there at a bagel shop on Granite Avenue with her superior. (0:33:54)

So that's how he showed you how serious they took this. And Damien at one point just said, listen, I just want to stop having food fights with the feds. I don't want that to happen anymore. And Leta Johnson smiles in spite of herself and said, yes, that made us all laugh. That was the only time where the curtain was pulled aside. And she actually admitted that he was being stalked, harassed and surveilled. (0:34:21)

There's also an interesting aspect to that conversation that there's a kind of Candide like quality to Damien where sometimes he's not aware. There's a kind of oddly innocent quality about him, even though he's been in and out of jail. And so there's a kind of sometimes a bit of an unawareness. And so there's one point where Leta Johnson is telling him how great an area of Pacific Beach was when she was a little girl and that it really needs to be cleaned up. (0:34:57)

And the scumbags, you know, we need to do something about all these scumbags, you know, in San Diego and our town. And Damien is not getting that she's talking about him and he's agreeing with her. It's like, oh yeah, I know what you mean. (0:35:07)

They annoy me so much. I can just imagine her blood pressure rising as she's not getting that she's insulting him. And so that conversation didn't go well at all. In fact, it ended with her superior just turning red and like yelling at Damien for not thanking him for buying him the orange juice and the bagel, which I guess was, you know, that was a work expense for that day. (0:35:45)

So eventually it got so bad that this extended from summer of 2003 all the way into about January, February, 2004. By the beginning of 2004, Damien's lost weight. He's urinating blood. He has a metallic taste in his mouth, which I knew from Walter, from Walter Boart, that that was a sign of electromagnetic radiation poisoning. So I, and around this time, Damien runs into this beachcomber who was selling a van for like $700 or $500, something like that. (0:36:25)

I can't remember. And Damien said that he wanted to buy it, but that someone stole his wallet and all his money was gone. And so I, without even telling him, decide to wire him some money so that he can buy the van and get out. Because I naively thought that if he just left town, it would all stop. (0:36:44)

Which a lot of people think that. And so I don't know if you've ever sent someone money through Western Union, but you have to give a password that the other person, the receiver, will give to the clerk. And then that proves that they're the one who is supposed to receive the money. So the password I made up is pornographic in nature, so I can't say what it is. (0:37:09)

But I knew that it was sort of an in-joke between me and Damien. So I call Damien to give him the password and tell him I just wired him this money. So I do that and Damien's surprised and grateful. And I say, well, let me give you the password. He goes, no, no, no, don't give him the password right now. Because he's concerned that if I say it over the phone, because obviously they're listening to the phone calls, that someone will go and take the money in his place before he can get there. (0:37:34)

So he goes, let me pack everything up first. And then in a couple hours, I'll call you back and you give me the password. Okay. So like two hours later, he calls back and I say, okay, the password is the phone goes dead. I call him back. The password is the phone goes dead. (0:37:59)

That happened like six, seven, eight times, you know? And then suddenly I realized something that was unique for when you're placing a collect phone call. If you've ever placed a collect phone call with someone, there's a moment where the operator is talking to the other person saying, will you accept the phone call where you can both hear each other. And so I placed a collect phone call to Damien. He picked up the phone. (0:38:17)

And while she was saying, will you accept the charges? I yelled out a hint as to what the password was. And I heard Damien laugh for half a second. So I knew he understood it. And then the phone went dead. So he was able to go over to the Western Union and pick up the money and get the van and he packed everything into the van and he takes off. (0:38:44)

And now keep in mind it's 2004. No one's talking about drones. There's no one shooting drones out of the sky over Dodger Stadium. Before we get to him leaving, let's go over some of the things, a couple of things I noticed when he was there. First of all, the people in his apartment he called invisible midgets. Yes, that was the charming phrase that he came up with, invisible midgets. (0:39:10)

And that became a kind of humorous running joke the entire time we would talk about the invisible midgets who were following him. (0:39:17)

You made a good point, though, that if you're trying to keep someone invisible, having someone who's small and agile and stuff and get in and out of things easier would make more sense than a bigger person. Well, as we discover later on, since we know that this technology is actually being used by the military, yes, if you want to get in and out of tight spaces really quick, this technology does not make you bulletproof, right? (0:39:44)

So it's good to have someone who's agile, who's small, who could get in and out of tight places really fast. And so it actually makes perfect sense that you would hire very small athletic, agile people to wear this technology. Yeah. There was also a thing about his apartment feeling bigger or smaller, and other people noticed this as well. Oh, yes. (0:40:15)

The fake space phenomenon. Damien would come home and he would notice that the apartment seemed to get bigger. He calls me one day, he says, my apartment is growing. If you've ever seen Doctor Who, you'll know that Doctor Who has a TARDIS, which is a spacecraft that's also a time machine. And when you go inside the TARDIS, it's much bigger on the inside than it is on the outside, exactly the same principle. (0:40:40)

And he would go inside and the room was either smaller or bigger. And it wasn't just him who noticed this. His friends would come over and say, is the room getting bigger? Later on, we'll discover that in fact, the optical camouflage technology can in fact make that happen. Also, noise cancellation. I mentioned before that ATC, American Technology Corporation, which was based in that same area, was specializing in stuff like noise cancellation technology. One time I was on the phone with Damien, and as I was talking to him, you know when you're talking on the phone with someone, there's some ambient noise you can hear in the background, like cars going by, or the TV in the background, the radio is on, whatever. (0:41:26)

All that just stopped all of a sudden. And then Damien says, all the noise is gone. And then, very often things would happen that if you didn't know any better, you would think the house was haunted, or that there were poltergeists in the house. Things start flying around the room. And as I said, Damien's been in jail, he's been homeless in DC, he shared a prison, he was on the same cell block as Mike Tyson. He's been around the block. (0:41:58)

He's not easily scared. He was crouched on the floor. He sounded like an 8-year-old girl as these things were flying around the room, and tchotchkes shattering on the shelf. And I heard that myself. I was on the phone with him when that happened. And he was scared as hell. So there was a whole panoply of odd phenomenon that was going on. Yeah, the other interesting one was his window, or one of his windows, looked like it was a window to somewhere else, almost like a portal. (0:42:31)

Yeah, he opened the curtains, and he looked out the window, and instead of seeing the scene that he'd always seen, suddenly it was this surreal science-fictional landscape, like three moons in the sky. It looked like a Boris Vallejo painting. But then he opened the door, and it just looked like the normal scene that he would always see. Again, this is also something that's possible with optical camouflage technology. (0:42:57)

Yeah. I mean, that one doesn't seem that hard to believe. (0:43:02)

Yeah. Now, one of the things... how did he relate this stuff to you? Did you take notes while you were talking to him? Yes, I took voluminous notes. And, again, I recorded a lot of the conversations. And at the time, I was in contact with Joan DeArc, who was the editor of Paranoia Magazine. And I had written a lot of articles for Paranoia Magazine, mostly involving mind control, again because of the connection with Walter. I wrote an article called, Honey, Did You Leave Your And that is, in fact, in my first book, Cryptoscatology. And I called Joan to tell her the whole story. (0:43:50)

And I didn't have the technology actually to record both ends of the phone conversation. So I just recorded me talking to her. And I'm so glad I did that, because I kept that recording. And so later on, when I decided that I should write a book about this, I went back to that recording. (0:44:14)

And a lot of the details that I otherwise may have forgotten, like specific dates, specific times, specific names, little details like that, were there on the recording, which I made simultaneous with it happening. So, yes, I tried to document it in many ways. And, in fact, Damien was documenting it the entire time, too. He was photographing a lot of things. (0:44:43)

And a couple of those photographs appear at the beginning of the book. Unfortunately, I was just speaking to Damien the other day on the phone. And I've known other people who have described when something takes over their body and that they don't want to do. I have two friends who claim to be abductees and my lab experiencers. And they've had experiences where they're driving down the street. (0:45:15)

And this one particular woman I know, her foot just started going on the gas, going through a red light. And she didn't want to do that. And I know another friend who you may know Melinda Leslie, she had an experience where she woke up, she was getting ready in the morning, she grabbed her hair dryer, turned on the faucet, and held the plugged it into the wall and held the hair dryer under the running faucet. (0:45:44)

And she didn't want to be doing this. Obviously, you don't want to do that. And those and so these things have happened to other people. Recently, Damien had an experience where he had a glass of milk, and he took it and poured it into the back of his computer. And he said that it's the strangest thing where your hand is doing something and your mind is telling you not to do it, but your hand is doing it anyway. (0:46:14)

And it destroyed everything in the computer that he had, everything that he'd been photographing since 2003. So the harassment is, in fact, ongoing. So do those pictures not exist anywhere else? Not that I know of. Okay. Some of them, some of them, I have some of them, but very small amount. (0:46:39)

Now, initially, they seem to be referring to you as Mr. Big, but wouldn't it have been pretty easy for them to figure out who you were? No, well, that's not a direct quote. That was sort of me imagining what they're thinking because they think that Damien's trying to sell this stuff, but the only person he's talking to is me. (0:47:08)

So I meant that somewhat sarcastically, because obviously, I'm not Mr. Big and Damien's not talking to anyone else. So who else is it that he's supposedly selling this equipment to? He's obviously not in contact with foreign-sounding gentlemen in the Middle East. So who is it that they think he's selling this stuff to? I really think that at a certain point, it began with the night vision goggles and then wanting to get those goggles back. (0:47:41)

But I think eventually what it became was, and it can be as simple as this, that Damien just pissed somebody off. During that week's time when he was in the jail and he was interacting with them, and I can easily see this happening, of him pissing them off because he wasn't cooperating. And I already quoted you, quoted Leta Johnson talking about how she wanted to, quote, clean up the neighborhood in Pacific Beach. And they just decided, this is the perfect guy. (0:48:12)

First of all, he's not cooperating, so we think he's an SOB. B, he's a drug addict and a degenerate. And C, we need someone to test this stuff out on. I remember talking to someone at the time and she said, she was a fellow professor at CSU Long Beach. She said to me, if they had equipment like this, they wanted to test it out, why can't they just test it out on Camp Pendleton? Why would they have to take a civilian to test it out on? And I immediately said, well, because you need to test this out in an environment that is unpredictable, on someone who doesn't expect any of this. (0:48:49)

So you can see where the weaknesses are, because you want to be able to pinpoint the weaknesses of this technology before you utilize it in a real life battle situation. You know, better for Damien to notice you in the bathroom mirror than for some guy for the enemy with a gun to notice you in the bathroom mirror. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And the U.S. has a history of doing things like that anyway. (0:49:09)

I mean, it's not unheard of. Oh, certainly not. No. And then Walter does an excellent job of documenting all that in Operation Mind Control. Yeah. There was also some, you talk about sonic weapons that were probably being used on him as well. Yeah, well, you know, what John Alexander likes to call non-lethal weapons, SAIC, which is based in Pacific Beach. In fact, it was located right across the street from the Whaley House, W-H-A-L-E-Y, Whaley House, which is notorious amongst paranormal investigators for being the most haunted place in California. Yep. It's in the Old Town district of San Diego. And SAIC at that point was located just right across the street, which I find interesting. (0:50:08)

I'm not suggesting that SAIC was creating paranormal phenomenon back in 1899, when supposedly hauntings started. But it is interesting. (0:50:15)

One wonders if these people don't pick certain geographical locations, because perhaps they're a nexus for this kind of odd phenomenon. When I was on Coast to Coast with George Knapp, I mentioned, because I read The Hunt for the Skinwalker, George Knapp's book about the ranch. And there were a lot of parallels between his book and community. If you read them back to back, you'll see the parallels. (0:50:52)

And I suggested to him that it makes perfect sense that if you're going to experiment with technology like this, why not pick an area that already has a reputation for being, quote, haunted, unquote. Yeah. So if something odd happens, or someone sees something odd, you just say, oh, that's the Skinwalker Ranch. It's been haunted for 100 years. (0:51:14)

That's the Whaley House. Everyone knows that place is weird. So in other words, there can be two things going on at the same time. So SAIC was located in that location at that time, not far from where Damien was living. It has since moved, and SAIC has split into two different corporations, one called Leidos, L-E-I-D-O-S, and the other has maintained the name SAIC. The main bulk of the corporation moved to Virginia, which is a good place for it, right next to Central Intelligence Agency. Right. And that's the current status of SAIC. By the way, just a footnote about SAIC, they had an office on Camp Pendleton, which I mentioned in the book. (0:51:57)

But also, when I was talking to Melinda Leslie about all this, I mentioned before she claims to be an abdictee and is a MyLab experiencer, meaning she's been abducted by military people after having her alien abductions. When I was having lunch with her and telling her this whole story, everything I'm telling you, before I said, I go, there was a corporation in San Diego. That's as far as I got. (0:52:21)

And Melinda interrupts me and says, oh, SAIC? That's not something that most people know. SAIC is not floating at the top of most people's consciousness on a daily basis. And she just busts out with, oh, SAIC. And I said, how did you know that? And she said, oh, well, in the investigations I've done, she's spoken to dozens and dozens and dozens of MyLab experiencers. (0:52:46)

And a lot of them have some sort of odd connection to SAIC. So that's food for thought and grounds for further research. Yeah. What do you think, just because it's related and it keeps popping up with this thing in Cuba that seems like it could have been a sonic attack. Any thoughts on that? Oh, yeah, yeah. In fact, I have a blog, cryptoscatology.com, and I keep sort of posting updates on that. (0:53:17)

Yes, I mean, that seems like a replay of situations that occurred back in the 1980s where that technology was used on various people. It certainly seems like a reoccurrence. It seems like the same sort of technology that was being used on Damien. Who was using it and what was the purpose of it? You know, I have no idea, but it certainly sounds like it's the same technology. (0:53:45)

And that was going to be my next question. What would be the motivation behind something like that in Cuba? (0:53:49)

You know, who knows? It could be something as simple as what I've just said. If you're not cooperating and you have access to this technology, there's a lot of evil people out there, right? If they have access to this technology, the way I describe it in the book to try to get it down on a mundane level that people can wrap their minds around it is, imagine you've just cut off Special Agent Lita Johnson on the freeway, and instead of going into road rage, she writes your license plate number down, and suddenly you're on quote the list. (0:54:34)

Now that sounds like a paranoid the list. What do you mean? That sounds pretty paranoid. But actually, it's not really paranoid because when you take into account the black budget, the ballooning black budget that occurred right after 9-11, you have a situation where all these intelligence agencies have been given all this money to prevent another 9-11. And so now you need to spend this money. (0:55:02)

And the way I bring this down to a prosaic level in the book is I explain that my first teaching job was I was an English tutor at El Camino Community College in Torrance. I had a tutoring job. And on the first day, I went into the room where I was supposed to teach or tutor whoever came in, and there were these math tutors sitting there. (0:55:27)

And they weren't doing anything. They were just like playing games, like flipping through their notebook, whatever. And after about like a half hour, I turned to them and I said, what are we supposed to be doing? We're not doing anything. And they just laughed and said, oh, no, you don't understand. Every year, the English department here gets a certain amount of money, and they have to spend it by the end of the year. (0:55:45)

And if they don't spend it, then they have to send the money back. Well, they don't want to do that. So they have to figure out a way to spend the money. So they hired you as an English tutor to have something to do with the money. Meanwhile, even though there were plenty of people there who could have used an English tutor, they didn't tell anyone that there was a tutor there. (0:56:02)

So I would just sit there and do my homework. Now, take that on to a vast, bigger level. And now you've got this black budget. You need to spend it on something. There's no one to watch because, in fact, the problem isn't really terrorism. So now we have to make up terrorists. And so now everyone's a terrorist. (0:56:29)

So this guy in San Diego is not doing anything, pretty much just minding his own business. If he's abusing anyone, it's himself. So now we're going to say he's a terrorist, and we'll follow him around. And we'll create our little crypto Wikipedia page on him and keep adding information about him into it. And then we can say that we're doing something. Meanwhile, the real terrorists are walking in across the border of San Diego with a thermonuclear bomb strapped to their shoulders, and no one notices that. (0:56:57)

That's why I really question the latest school shooter, who there were multiple, about 18 tips about this guy, people calling into the FBI saying this guy's about ready to explode, you should do something about it. Them claiming they don't have enough manpower to do anything about it, which, in fact, is probably true. And I think that that's exactly how this situation started. (0:57:28)

You get someone like SAIC or Leidos, they approach the FBI and they say, you know, you don't have enough manpower to watch all these potential terrorists. We do. Just contract it out to us. You can use the black budget money that you have, share it with us, and then you'll contract it out to us, and then we'll surveil these people and harass them, etc. (0:57:52)

And the FBI says, excellent idea. Here's the check. Then, so now SAIC is doing this, the business is burgeoning, right? So then you got another, like, who knows, InfraGard, InfraGard, which is another one of these corporations. They approach Leidos and say, you know what, you don't have enough manpower to watch all these people, all these terrorists are wandering out here. (0:58:10)

You should contract it out to us. And then Leidos goes, that's a good idea. And then they sign the check over to InfraGard. And now they're doing it, too. And then some other corporation, the Macy Group, M-A-S-Y, they come along and they say to InfraGard, you don't have enough manpower to watch all these terrorists. (0:58:27)

And they contract it out to them. There's just endless kinds of these, the DSAC, the Domestic Security Alliance Council, Whitney, Bradley, and Brown, InfraGard, ITA International, Prescient Edge, EKS Group. It just goes on and on with these privatized industrial corporations who are doing this kind of thing. They're surveillance role players. That used to be what they're called. (0:58:58)

They probably changed the name now. But essentially it's government funded vigilantes, which sounds like a paradox. How can you be government funded and be a government funded vigilante? But that's a pretty good way of describing it. Now, there were also some experiences that Damien had on the beach. Oh, yes. I think you're the first person to mention this. Because they're really weird experiences. (0:59:22)

Because I think you're the first interview where anyone has ever brought this up. But he was on the beach, and there was a vehicle following him. And he could actually see the tracks in the beach following him, but there was no vehicle visible. And then, on top of that, he had another experience. You're talking about the leap frogging robots? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So he was on the beach, and he described them as these robots that moved in this kind of weird, jerky fashion, almost like a Ray Harryhausen stop-motion figure from Jason the Argonauts from the 1960s. You know how that claymation is kind of like jerky and doesn't move in a kind of smooth, human way? He called them leap frogging robots. (1:00:14)

These odd, mechanical creatures that were kind of leap frogging on the beach, right there in Pacific Beach. And I included that detail because I took to heart something I read once in an interview with John A. Keel, who wrote a book called The Mothman Prophecies, which was later made into a film. (1:00:40)

And I read an interview with him once. And by the way, he had a similar kind of time lag. His experiences in Point Pleasant, West Virginia, occurred in the late 60s, but he didn't write the book until 75. And I read an interview with him where he said it was so disturbing, he didn't want to think about it. (1:00:54)

And it took that long, about eight years, to write it. And that's the same time period that it took for me to process it and begin writing this book. What Keel said was that very often UFO researchers will leave out the most important detail, the case, because it sounds silly or irrelevant or ridiculous. And that Keel discovered that usually those were the most important details. (1:01:22)

The Highest Strangest Details were the most important. So he always went out of his way to include them, which is why I didn't leave out the leapfrogging robots, which by the way, they just had a spa war conference, where they show off their new technology. And I was watching it. (1:01:49)

And sure enough, there are these robots that are moving in this weird, jerky fashion, and they're leapfrogging. And so, you know, when they show you something, that means they've had it for many, many years. (1:01:58)

Oh, yeah, decades, probably. Yeah. And so the other weird detail that I insisted on including in the book, even though it might make the whole thing sound ridiculous, so I guess some people would say the whole thing does sound ridiculous, that one of Damon's friends who was also being harassed, who was named Adam, he talked about how he went into Santee, S-A-N-T-E, Santee, California, which is right near San Diego, into this desert area. (1:02:30)

And there were these ape men. At first, they just saw these figures, dark figures off in the distance in the desert, firing like machine guns. That's ominous just by itself, but there's a bunch of desert rats who go out there and just shoot, you know, so it may not be that odd. The machine gun thing might be a little, you know, worrisome. (1:02:52)

As they got closer, they saw that the figures turned towards them, and they saw that they were hairy, humanoid ape things on feet, you know, walking on their feet, firing these guns. And they saw they were pretty close to them, and they could see their eyes, you know, and so they just, they turned around and got out of there real quick. (1:03:16)

And the reason I included that is because later on, I was talking to Melinda, Melinda Leslie, and she had an experience where she and a bunch of people were all abducted at the same time in 2010 from Arizona. She was staying at a friend's house, and the military guys came in, they took Melinda, they took Melinda's friend, they took Melinda's friend's daughter, teenage or college-age daughter, and her friend's husband, and someone else. (1:03:45)

There was about five or six people they took all at the same time. And they took them to this underground base in the desert there in Arizona. And the college-age daughter, at one point, she went off into another area of this facility, and she described a laboratory kind of setting where there were all these weird creatures that she described as like hybrids, like human-slash-animal things, which I thought was interesting when she told me that, because I immediately thought of this story about the ape men. (1:04:21)

And then you may recall, because I know you've interviewed David Paulides many times, Paulides tells that story about the kids that were lost in the woods. And then the people came and found the kids hiding behind the bush. And then they asked the kids, what are you doing? Didn't you hear us calling you? We've been calling you for like 12 hours. (1:04:42)

Why are you hiding here? And then the kids said, well, we didn't want the ape men to come back. We thought you might be the ape men. So I decided to include that detail just because I thought it would be a mistake to leave it out. And also, by the way, just briefly mentioning John Keel, there's an interesting connection. (1:05:07)

There's a website called John Keel, not an authority on anything. John Keel used to have a business card, and on the business card it would say not an authority on anything. Yeah, I always loved that. If you go to the March 5th, 2014 post, it's called Organized Harassment of Individuals. And they list his notes. And it's just notes on and on about people being harassed back in the 60s. So I think, you know, even though this thing ballooned after 9-11, 2001, I think it was going on even back then. (1:05:45)

And in fact, the first person who interviewed me about this book was Tessa Dick, the widow of Phil K. Dick. She has a radio show called Ancient of Days, and she interviewed me. And she told me that everything, that she really liked the book because she could identify with it. Because when she was living with Phil K. Dick in Orange County in the 1970s, she said all the same stuff happened to Phil. And that specific incidents, like I describe in the book how when Damien was living in that apartment on Garnet Avenue, all his neighbors moved out one by one by one over the course of many months and were all replaced with new neighbors. (1:06:32)

And all those neighbors were completely hostile to him. And Tessa Dick said the same thing happened to Phil Dick. And in fact, these new neighbors would move in and they brought in this weird technology with antennas and stuff like that into the apartment. And then the radio started talking to Phil. But not just Phil, Tessa Dick heard it too. And the radio is not even plugged into the wall. (1:06:52)

And there's a voice coming through insulting Phil Dick, you know, personally. And so Tessa Dick heard this too, so it wasn't just like Phil was hallucinating. So again, that's in the 70s. Wow. I did not know that. That's interesting. The invisible vehicle on the beach. And later you do get confirmation that this technology was available. You would think they would cover up the tracks though, unless they wanted him to see the tracks. (1:07:34)

You know what I mean? That could have been it. I mean, it could have been part of the harassment. (1:07:38)

You know, it could have been a ploy to just freak him out. Yeah. And I mean, obviously showing them the robots again would be something just to freak him out and make him think he's losing his mind. Sure, sure. Yeah. You know, it often reminds me of not the movies of Mission Impossible, which I haven't seen, but back in the 70s, the Mission Impossible show and the heroes were these intelligence agents who often like their job was to make someone go nuts. And by the way, Phil Dick really loved the Mission Impossible TV series. (1:08:12)

But there was one particular episode where their job was to make some sort of dictator, you know, like Fidel Castro, think he was going crazy. So the guy who was an expert in disguises would make everyone up to look like they were skulls or something. And he would see a bunch of these people pass by and he thought he was going crazy. (1:08:34)

And I asked later on, you wonder, you know, sometimes these TV shows where they're getting their ideas from. I asked Richard Schonger later on when me and Damien met him, I asked him, I said, in this with this technology, could you use this to make someone appear as if they're if they were going crazy? And he said, Oh, yes, I included that in the patent. (1:08:56)

I included that as one of the uses of the technology that not only could you use it to camouflage people, but you could also use it to make a tree look like it's a man or a dinosaur, a giant spider, whatever you can imagine, and that you could make you could drive someone crazy for psychological warfare purposes. (1:09:16)

And of course, he was he was thinking of it as being used against enemies of the United States. He didn't think that they were going to use it against civilians. Well, yeah, but it always is going to be. Of course. And there's always going to be a scientist who's naive enough not to understand that. Sure, because they're not thinking that way. Yeah, of course. (1:09:39)

And the government looks at everything is how can we use this as a weapon? Yes. But the thing I was going to ask you about that. How much do you think like, obviously, being a drug addict on top of everything else, Damien was probably prone to paranoia to begin with. How much of the things that happened to him do you think were there, you know, like stuff they did, then influencing his own paranoia? (1:10:08)

You mean, in other words, taking advantage of the paranoia that was already there? Yeah, yeah. Sure. Well, I mean, obviously, it's easier to push someone over the edge if they're already, you know, if they already have paranoid tendencies. I mean, I don't think that Damien was particularly paranoid at the beginning of all this. He, as I said, his drug of choice was heroin. (1:10:35)

And I don't recall him having any really particular paranoid episodes until after all this started. (1:10:46)

You know, I mean, if you asked me, is he paranoid now? I would say, well, yeah, but that's sort of a natural reaction to having lived through all this, because you can't really ever know if you meet anyone new, someone new enters your life. And if you're wondering, is this just coincidence or is this person been sent to mess with my head? It would naturally drive you into a kind of paranoid state. (1:11:13)

I guess not only that, though, but they're like with the people following him. I mean, there were obviously a good number of people following him, but I would think it was also possible that some of the people he like accosted may not have actually been following him. Well, I mean, there's really, there's an incident I talk about in the book where he, this one guy was following him around, and he could tell, it was early on, it was early on enough that he wasn't even quite sure it was happening yet. (1:11:43)

And he was, the guy was following him around, so he led him into some kind of a salvation army or something like that. And then the guy followed him out, and so Damien went into like a 7-Eleven and got a big slurpee. And then in the middle of the street, the guy's like just a few feet behind him, Damien turns around and pours the entire, just splashes the entire slurpee into the guy's face, and then calls him a homophobic word that would normally piss off any straight white male in the Marines. And the guy didn't react at all, didn't do anything, just stared at him. (1:12:28)

Now that, in the real world, that doesn't happen. There would be some sort of reaction. And the guy didn't, he just acted like a robot. And probably because he was told, don't interact, no matter what he does, do not react, those are your orders. But I guess what I'm saying is that there are probably a few of those people who really weren't following him, but maybe were startled by it, like he talks about pounding on the woman's car. (1:12:53)

Oh yes, absolutely. Well that only works to their advantage, doesn't it? Oh yeah, absolutely. You can harass him, harass him, harass him to such an extent that maybe you can even pull everyone away for a while, and then the person's mind will do it to itself. Yeah. Yeah, yeah sure. That's a time-saving device right there, when you can get someone to do it to themselves. (1:13:17)

What was the thing that finally convinced you that he wasn't just making this stuff up, or wasn't just crazy? Well, for the most part, when he sent me the license plate numbers, that was my initial... I thought, well, there's really no other explanation for this. However, when the story started getting more and more elaborate with the invisible people, and the rooms growing and all that, I had to wonder how much of this is real and how much of it is not. (1:13:47)

So there was a room for doubt, until Damien, he fled all the way to Winona, Kansas, which is a little town that has like a hundred people in it. (1:13:57)

And for some reason, when he got there, the harassment stopped. I don't know if it's because it's such a small town that you can't get away with a whole parade of jarheads following him down the street. I mean, you'd notice suddenly a black van came down, and there's all these new people coming into the town. Also, everyone there owns guns, so as I said, this technology doesn't make you bulletproof. (1:14:21)

So they, for some reason, left him alone for about three months or so when he was in this town. He was able to gather his wits together, and he went on the internet, and he was trying to find anything that looked like the invisibility technology that he had seen. And he saw something about a guy named Professor Toshi, who was this Japanese inventor, who created this invisibility cloak, which wasn't quite what he had seen. (1:14:42)

And then he came upon this site called cameleo.net, and it was this site run by this guy, Richard Schongert. And Damien says, you should look at this website. This sounds like what I saw. So I'm looking at it, and I'm surprised to see that Schongert claims that he was a 33rd degree Scottish Rite Freemason at the Scottish Rite in Long Beach. Well, I'm a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason at the Scottish Rite in Long Beach. So I thought, wait, this is weird. This guy is in the same lodge as me. I must have met him at some point, though I didn't know it. (1:15:20)

So I emailed him, and I said, you know, I'm a writer. I do interviews. I'd like to interview you about your technology, Project Cameleo. And he writes me back and says, sure. And I mentioned to him that I'm in his lodge. And so he goes, oh, okay, well, we'll meet at the lodge Saturday after next. And so I told Damien, come down here. (1:15:44)

So Damien drives down, and we both pick up Richard, and we take him to lunch, and then we take him to my office on campus. And I didn't know if any of this was actually going to tie in to anything. I mean, it could have been just a dead end. But immediately, Richard starts talking about – first of all, I should mention that Richard has a top-secret clearance, or did until recently. (1:16:10)

He recently retired. So he's worked on top-secret projects. But Project Cameleo was his own individual private side project that was not funded by the military. And he starts telling me about all the uses, everything that you can do with this technology. You can use it for psychological warfare purposes. You can make rooms look like they're bigger than they actually are. You can make them look like they're smaller. (1:16:36)

You could project images outside a window. And on and on, he mentions that he was visited by employees of SAIC, and that they came to visit him. And he showed them the technology 10 years earlier. (1:16:52)

He mentions that the Navy came to the laboratory that he shares with Dr. Ludberger, who's a very eminent physicist, whose home base is in Hemet, California, which is the middle of nowhere. In fact, I went out to Ludberger's laboratory. I went out there myself. And so the Navy went there to see what they could do, and they were interested in it. And Ludberger and Richard thought, well, they're going to fund us. (1:17:22)

This was 10 years earlier, 10 years before the interview. And then after that, they kind of just went away. The Navy went away. SAIC went away. They seemed to lose interest. Then Richard busts out with the fact that he had initiated a lawsuit and FOIA request against the Navy and the military and the Army because he thought that he had been stolen from. (1:17:48)

And so at a certain point in the interview, I stop and I say, okay, Damien's got a story to tell you. And so Damien starts telling him the whole story. And at first, Richard looks a little like, what is this? What's going on here? But the point where Damien mentioned that he had seen the invisible person in the mirror as the mirror was in motion, he kind of leaned forward and he said, oh yeah, yeah, that's what happens because they're cloaking the suit but not cloaking the mirror. (1:18:20)

And then when Damien mentioned seeing the little auroras in the air, little dots, he just leaned forward and Richard goes, that's exactly what it looks like when the technology is not working properly. And it was that moment I could tell Richard was totally invested in it. Because there was no way that Damien would have known that. Damien's not a physicist. He doesn't know anything about optical camouflage. (1:18:43)

It's not a detail that you would just make up. And Richard could tell that he was telling the truth. And also Richard had had some... I interviewed Richard for a separate, totally separate interview for Nexus Magazine last year. And the whole point of that interview was just to go into the origins of Project Chameleon, how he came up with the idea. And Richard said that his interest in Rosicrucianism, because he became a Rosicrucian in the 50s in Guam when he was in the military, he became a Freemason around the same time. (1:19:20)

So he said his interest in Freemasonry and Rosicrucianism kind of melded with... in the late 60s he began to become interested in the UFO phenomenon. And as a Rosicrucian, he had heard for years stories about supposed ascended masters who had reached the higher levels of Rosicrucianism, who could make themselves invisible. And then he started going into the whole UFO thing and reading about how the UFOs had this cloaking technology. (1:19:48)

And he started to wonder, well, how would you do that with our technology that we have today? And that's how it began. So in a way, I guess you could say that Richard's technology is kind of like the cargo cult version of the UFO technology. (1:20:06)

You've probably seen movies from the 1930s, Tarzan movies, where there's an African tribe and they've built a plane and they're worshipping it. That's kind of like what has happened here. In other words, there's sort of like two phenomena happening at the same time. There's that technology, which has been created by humans, aping a real phenomenon. So you have two things going on at the same time. (1:20:34)

And I want to kind of get more into that, but we are running out of time. Do you mind doing a second part? Sure, sure. Okay, so let's stop there. And Robert, why don't you tell people where people can find your blog and where they can get the book? And then we're going to do a second part and cover the rest of all the things I want to talk about here. (1:20:58)

Okay. I suggest going to orbooks.com, O-R-B-O-O-K-S dot com. Because on Amazon, there are these crazy independent booksellers who are selling it for like over $1,000. Oh, wow. And that's nutty. Just go to orbooks.com. You can get it for $18. The e-book is like $10. So O-R-B-O-O-K-S dot com. And my blog is cryptoscatology.com. Spell that. C-R-Y-P-T-O-S-C-A-T-O-L-O-G-Y. Cryptoscatology, which is a word I made up. (1:21:34)

Crypto is Latin for secret, and scatology means the study of feces. So it's the study of secret feces. Gotcha. Nice. All right. So we will continue this with part two. And a special thanks to our Patreons who are donating at the $10 or above level. Christopher Sheehan, Mark Brady, Alison Cook, Christopher Vaughn, Robert Groom, Chris Elmquist, SupaInframan, Patricia Gayaquinta, Lauren Melton, John Eddy, Alfred Tuttle, Kevin Schreck, and Carla Mahoney. Thank you all so very much. (1:22:17)

All right. Next week, part two of my conversation with Robert. Patreons will get it very, very soon this week. And as I said, I'm going to put together a little extra segment out of the conversation we had afterwards for Patreons as well. So again, the book is Chameleo, A Strange But True Story of Invisible Spies, Heroin Addiction, and Homeland Security. And you can get it at OR Books. Don't get it on Amazon, because you'll get ripped off. (1:22:50)

Unless you're listening to this months from now, because they will get it back on Amazon eventually. You have been listening to Where Did the Road Go? This show is made possible in part from our Patreons. And we thank you and everyone listening for helping us continue this exploration of the strange. You can always find everything Where Did the Road Go? related at www.wheredidtheroadgo.com. And thank you so much for your support. (1:23:21)

(2025-05-17)

AI 要約 : 不可視技術と怪しい監視​

前置き​

(*1)​

関連​

AI生成の解説（音声対話）​

Youtube 動画(1:23:25)​

対話​

AI 要約 : 不可視技術と怪しい監視

前置き

(*1)

関連

AI生成の解説（音声対話）

Youtube 動画(1:23:25)

対話