詳細ブリーフィング資料：ラマ・ミッションの起源と進化、地球外生命体とのコンタクト

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（以下はインタビュー動画の文字起こしです。長いので 2分割し、これは前半です。 James Iandoli が聞き手で、ゲストが Joseph Burkes, MD です。）

Hey everybody, welcome back to Engaging the Phenomenon. And again, returning as also highly requested by everybody in the audience, we have again with us, Dr. Joseph Birx. Welcome Joe. Thanks for having me on again. And I'll correct myself and say, Joseph Birx, MD. And today we're gonna be covering something which I think is a very important topic in what Joe would call the contact underground, or the history of modern contact work. (0:00:35)

And that's Mission Rama. And I'm first gonna relay just a very initial kind of introduction to Rama as based in Sixto Paz-Well's English transcribed book called The Invitation. And then Dr. Joe is gonna follow up in regards to an article that was portrayed as very accurate. So just, there's a book, I think it's one of the only English translated books by Sixto Paz-Wells. I think it's one of two, into English is called The Invitation. And that book describes the early beginning and the early mission and some of the early activity that Mission Rama had. (0:01:25)

So Mission Rama is a group from Lima, Peru who was doing contact work. You know, what we in the United States or other countries might recognize as CE5, but, you know, contact work. And Sixto Paz-Wells has a very interesting story in how he got involved in contact and contact work. You know, I believe he was in his late teens or early 20s and his father was actually somewhat of a ufologist in South America and would organize conferences or attend conferences to speak at. (0:02:01)

But his father, from what I understand, was somewhat of a nuts and bolts ufologist reporting on, you know, investigating and reporting different UFO cases. And during one of these conferences Sixto Paz-Wells attended a lecture given by actually a 32nd degree Freemason. And the entire lecture was on telepathically communicating with non-human intelligence. I actually found it pretty interesting that this was being taught by a 32nd degree Freemason, but nonetheless, you know, Sixto Paz-Wells attended this lecture and received some of these instructions and studied it. (0:02:47)

And he went home after that. And Sixto Paz-Wells had also mentioned he was into Hathi yoga. So he was familiar with meditation and concentration exercise. And so he began to practice these techniques that he learned in this lecture about, you know, telepathically communicating with non-human intelligence. And from there, I believe even in the first session, he began, or shortly after, he began automatic writing. (0:03:26)

And during these automatic writing, he would get very interesting answers and responses. And he was sitting around with his family and they started asking him questions, you know, from this non-human intelligence, you know, through Sixto doing automatic writing. And, you know, Sixto was able to respond in some pretty surprising ways, you know, by communicating with this non-human intelligence, up until the point where they said, okay, you know, where can we see you? Or let's, you know, have an encounter. (0:03:58)

And so Sixto was able to name a date, a location, and a time through this automatic writing and, you know, alleged telepathic communication. (0:04:10)

And sure enough, you know, Sixto and some of his family and friends went to the location and, you know, I believe it was like something like 10 p.m. at night when the sighting was supposed to occur, a hamburger-shaped or almost like a disc-shaped object appeared and it came quite low. Everybody freaked out and kind of ran. And that was some of the beginning contact experiences they began to have. (0:04:43)

But Dr. Joe, from your article, what do you got? Well, thanks for having me on again. It's a real pleasure. Before I talk about the mission rama, I just want to remind the audience of who I am. If you haven't had a chance to see the first episode of our interview, or our interviews, which is the second one, engaging the phenomena. I'm an internal medicine physician, now retired, 30 years practice for the Permanente Medical Group. I was, during my youth, an activist at various peace and social justice movements. (0:05:24)

And as a high school student, I studied Spanish. So I got very much involved in support work during the 60s and 70s, support work for the movements of social change in Latin America. When I was 19, I traveled to Mexico, was there for two and a half months. This was a very trying time in Mexican history because the Olympics occurred in 1968, and there were massive demonstrations against the government. (0:05:57)

And in the Plaza of the Three Cultures, La Plaza de las Tres Culturas, the army unleashed machine guns against an unarmed crowd. Well, I shouldn't say that. There were some people armed in the crowd. And about 400 students, workers, were gunned down right in the middle of Mexico City. It was a terrible event. So as a teenager, I was doing support work, traveling to Latin America. In 1969, I traveled to Guatemala. And being an anti-Vietnam War activist in the civil rights and labor support activists, I've identified with the struggle of the young people in Latin America to try to reform their countries and create social justice. (0:06:43)

So that's how I got involved in Latin America. When I became a contact activist, which we talked about in some detail during the previous interview, I heard about Mission Rama through a very important person, Giorgio Pianzenza. In 1970, correction, in 1993, the CE5 network had a three-day in-depth workshop in right outside Phoenix, about 60 miles, in a place that was called Ropes and Mining World. And Giorgio Pianzenza, a young man, and I would say he probably was in his late 20s, early 30s. He was a businessman who had established an import-export business, flying from Lima, Peru, to Miami. And he was a friend of Rama. He had had a sighting when he was, I guess, a teenager in 1974, and 75, just a year after Mission Rama was established. (0:08:00)

And he played a very important role because he was flying back and forth to the United States as liaison between Mission Rama and the North American contact network that was formed in the early 1990s. And so I got a chance to learn about Mission Rama through Giorgio Pianzenza. He described their amazing encounters starting in 1974. And Joe Vallejo, who was a 747 pilot, now retired from United Airlines, he had family in Miami. So he was on my contact team, one of the two pilots on our CE-5 contact teams operating out of Los Angeles in the early 1990s. So I had Captain Joe Vallejo playing a very important liaison role. (0:08:53)

So I got to meet Mission Rama activists in 1993. I was then an organizer for the CE-5 initiative and doing workshops and facilitating other working groups coming into the field. (0:09:11)

And I traveled to the American Public Health Association meeting in 1992, that was in Washington, DC, and actually set up a CE-5 network, or CSETI, Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence booth. And I recruited healthcare workers into our network by right there in the middle of the American Public Health Association's pavilion with thousands of health workers and professionals showing videos of UFOs and asking people to join our efforts. (0:09:43)

And a number of physicians and healthcare workers did join the network. And in 1993, we held our American Public Health Association meeting in San Francisco. So again, I set up a CE-5 network booth and showing videos. And I got to meet a very important individual, Fernando Limaco. He was a retired dental surgeon who was part of the second wave of Rama activists. And he brought to me an article that was published in a UFO library magazine. (0:10:24)

That's a newspaper, I should say a magazine that is no longer in publication, but it had details concerning the formation of Mission Rama, which I'd like to talk to you about. So with that as a background of my interest in Latin America, how I got to know of Mission Rama through Giorgio Pianzenza and my friend, Captain Joe Vallejo, I met this very powerful, very spiritually enlightened individual, Dr. Limaco. So do you have any questions for me at this point? (0:11:03)

No, that's great. And again, just so people understand, Mission Rama is a group of contact workers or contact activists in the early 1970s, essentially doing the same thing that, or in their own way, as the CE5 initiative had started in the 1990s. So I just want people to realize that this is beginning 20 years before Dr. Greer came on the scene publicly with the CE5 initiative. (0:11:32)

I just want to lay that down as a kind of preface. So go ahead, Dr. Joe. Okay, so the article was published in this obscure magazine, UFO Library magazine, but it was written by a very important person, Yolanda Marcino. And she, a Peruvian contact worker and leader of, she was at one time a leader of Mission Rama in the United States. And the story I'm going to share with you is based on that library magazine, UFO Library magazine. (0:12:08)

And just as we've just heard, James told us that Rama got its start in 1974 in Lima, Peru. Now we should say a little bit about Lima. It's a city on the coast of Peru. It's the capital of Peru. Peru is the third largest country in South America. After Brazil and Argentina, Peru is the largest land mass. It's also had a big population of 15 million people back in the 1970s. Now they have over 30 million people in the country. (0:12:49)

It's a place of tremendous diversity along the coast, which is on the Pacific Ocean, you have dry, arid desert. Moisture coming in from the Pacific Ocean hits the Andes and Lima, Peru is elevated off the coast. (0:13:08)

And then you have tropical rainforests on the Eastern slopes going down into Brazil. And you have high desert locations sort of like the United States. And then you've got extremely mountainous areas, the peaks of the Andes mountain going up over 17,000 feet. So these are places where if North Americans tried to go, they would become immediately sick from oxygen deprivation. So it's a land of tremendous diversity. (0:13:48)

At the time that Rama was established, more than half the population were indigenous people. They have their own language, they should say languages, Quechuan. And they are the descendants of the Incas, which was the largest ancient civilization in the new world that was conquered by the Pizarro and his murderous gang of invaders in the mid 16th century. So they have a long history of indigenous people and their culture. (0:14:24)

And the population is mixed North America, I should say Europeans and mixing with indigenous people mestizos, as they call them in Spanish. So with that little background about Peruvian culture and people, I'll tell what I know about the events that James shared with you. Yes, García Wells, Sixto Paz Wells' father was an avid ufologist. In 1974, he had this conference, which you heard about. (0:14:58)

And one of the presentations was about the possibility of contact extraterrestrials through consciousness, mind, telepathy. And automatic writing was what Sixto Paz Wells, who was, as you heard, a young university student, late teens, early 20s. And he was excited about the prospect. He was already a practitioner of yoga. And here again, last time I talked about the modus operandi of a very special type of contact activist. (0:15:34)

I call them prime contactees. Definitely Sixto Paz Wells was one. And the prime contactees are people, young people, primarily the ones that I've worked with are men, but there are many women as well. They are recruited by UFO intelligence as either teenagers or in their early 20s. Typically with minimal adult supervision, they develop consciousness techniques that allows them to establish, shall we say, a link between themselves and universal mind or consciousness in its most unbounded form. (0:16:13)

And with this talent, this psi capability that comes from deep meditation, they're able to establish telepathic communication. Well, Sixto decided he'd give it a try. And it was on January 22nd, 1974, when, with his mom present and a few family members, went into deep meditation and reached out to UFO intelligences. He had a pad by his hand, at his hands, a writing pad. (0:16:51)

And within a few moments, after he achieved this state of unbounded mind, he felt his hand moving across the piece of paper. After a while, well, initially it was just scribble scrabble, but after a while he felt a consciousness that was not his own take over control of his writing hand. And he started writing and he established contact, contact with a being that in his mind's eye appeared to be a middle-aged man with some Asian features sitting at a white desk with his hands on his forehead like this. (0:17:35)

And the being identified himself as Oxalt. And through this telepathic communication, Oxalt communicated to him that he was an extraterrestrial being and he was communicating to Sixto from what we would call Ganymede, which is a Jovian moon, the largest moon, the Galilean moons of Jupiter. And allegedly Oxalt was there communicating via telepathy to Sixto Pazuelos in Lima, Peru. Well, this was quite a shocking experience. (0:18:13)

Sixto wasn't quite sure what to make of it according to the article. (0:18:20)

And so his mom and his sister arranged to have a family get together in their home where they'd give Sixto a chance to do it again. So again, and this was on... I think it was on the first week of February, 1974, with friends of the family there, many young people, he went into a trance. And again, Oxalt communicated to them via automatic writing. (0:18:55)

And just as James mentioned to you, people in the audience, there in the Sixto Pazuelos' home, they got a chance to ask questions to the alleged ET Oxalt. And Sixto was channeling and writing down the answers to their questions. At first, they posed questions to him verbally, but later on in that session, they actually posed the questions to Oxalt telepathically where they would think of questions and Sixto Pazuelos would receive the answers to those telepathically transmitted questions, communicating it all out in automatic writing. (0:19:42)

One particular communication was of significance as there was a somewhat skeptical woman in the audience, a young woman who telepathically communicated that she wanted, if this ET was real, she wanted him to tell her the name of the book that she was reading and to give the page that she was on. And after that thought was transmitted, Sixto Pazuelos writing automatically, not only described, not only named the book, correctly identified the page that she was on, but also gave back to the somewhat skeptical woman in the audience what her feelings were about the book she was reading. (0:20:30)

So there was no doubt in their minds at that point that they had genuine communication with a non-human intelligence that was totally telepathic. And as the expression goes, that intelligence could access their own individual consciousness as readily as you and I access light in a house by turning on the wall switch. So, but they still had doubts as to who this being was. (0:20:56)

And so they said, can you arrange a meeting? And the meeting was arranged on February 7th, 1974. It was located in a place about 60 kilometers south of Lima in a place called Chilca, which is in the desert adjacent to the Pacific ocean. And a group of seven young contact workers who were practicing yoga, and we had been instructed to carry out meditation and eat vegetarian food, which is another thing we're gonna get into. (0:21:36)

The most advanced elements of the contact network are pretty much totally vegan. And this is an important point because people have often asked why did Sixth Apostle Wells and the Mission Rama have such high level contacts from the very beginning and other contact networks 20 years later still have not achieved such success. So we can get into the high level of spiritual development that occurred within the Rama network. (0:22:10)

One part of which was vegetarianism. So as James described it, February 7th, 1974, a contact team of seven out in Chilca and sure enough, the hamburger shaped UFO appeared around nine o'clock at night. (0:22:30)

First they thought it was the moon, but then as it came closer, they saw it was a saucer shaped craft and the young people were not quite prepared. They were very apprehensive. The craft hovered overhead and beamed the light down on the team but was there for about 15 minutes. But they were instructed telepathically through Sixth Apostle Wells doing his automatic writing that they really needed to build themselves spiritually, do more meditation and prepare properly for the next encounter. (0:23:06)

So James, do you have any questions or you'd like to add anything from the book? No, sure. Is that where the article ends? No, this is just the beginning. Okay. Oh, wow. Okay. Sure. I'm hoping we have no limit on time, I'm told. So I'm going to, if it's okay, to go through the details that was the history, the intimate history of the early days of Mission Rama because what Mission Rama became was eventually through emigration, a worldwide network of contact workers. (0:23:45)

When I made contact with Rama in 1993, the article that I quoted just came out, they had claimed that there were over 25,000 individual encounters with extraterrestrial intelligence throughout the Rama network. This was now almost 20 years into their mission. By now, given basically, it's now 50 years of contact experience, or I should say over 40 years of contact work. The numbers are probably in the hundreds of thousands of individuals going out and doing what we call field work or what they call encuentros programos, programmed encounters, probably hundreds of thousands of contact, individual contact experiences have occurred. (0:24:38)

So this is why it's of great importance for people who are interested in this subject, contact with non-human intelligence of a presumed extraterrestrial nature to know the intimate details of this amazing network of very inspired, who were initially were young people. And now there are gray hairs like me, but still interested in the subject. Yeah, just so people have, are familiar that, Rama has used this term program sightings or programmed encounters. (0:25:12)

Can you describe what a programmed encounter is? Yes, what it is, is a meeting, an encounter. It's an arranged interchange where humans, receive messages from the non-human intelligences. And they do it primarily in the early days via automatic writings. And the term used for people within the Rama network who are particularly Sai capability, the term is antennas, antennas, you know? And so what Rama people do is that they find Sai talented individuals. (0:25:56)

And they have usually at least one and better two or three within any contact team or a small network. When two or three of them all receive the same message as to a time and in place of the encounter that's to be scheduled, then the Rama people know that information is solid. It's akin to what the United States government in its remote viewers program used, where they would have multiple Sai capability, psychic spies working for the CIA or the Defense Intelligence Agency who ran remote viewers program. (0:26:36)

They would have multiple remote views of a target in order to verify the information is accurate. (0:26:44)

And so these Rama contact network activists would be independently receiving information. And then when they would correlate the information when it was correct, the same, they knew that that encounter was to be scheduled. So that's how they programmed or scheduled these events. So after this February 7th, 1994 first encounter, young people redouble their efforts, meditation, vegetarianism. They were also told that they should prepare to fast or eat light meals before they go out into the field, because this also facilitates telepathic communication with the alleged ETs. But the communication also spelled out some important guidelines. (0:27:39)

One of which was that the Rama young people were not to try to recruit or tell people who were resistant to the idea of telepathic communication. They should not try to convince others of the reality of what they were doing. And they should not expand their network of contact workers outside of the original seven group, because this was a period of intense training and building the ties between the South American young people and the UFO intelligences that were running basically the contact program. (0:28:17)

But Sixto, whose dad, as you mentioned, was more of a nuts and bolts ufologist, his name was Garcia Paz. He wanted very much, Sixto wanted very much his dad to be involved. He wanted to impress him of his work, how they achieved this truly amazing event of telepathic communication and having a UFO fly overhead and a beam of light beaming down on them in the desert. (0:28:45)

So against their initial instructions, they were able to negotiate with the alleged ETs that, okay, Garcia Wells, their dad, was allowed to go out into the field with him, but nobody else. So on the following week, February 14th, 1974, the Rama team, seven young people were in place. They were meditating, saw a distant light. They identified as a UFO. In Spanish, it's ovni, O, V, N, I, objeto. (0:29:20)

O, V, N, I, objeto volante no identificado, which is the UFO term translated into Spanish. They saw the ovni. And in the distance, and they saw some lights coming down from the mountain across the desert towards them. And instead of coming alone, Six de Paz Wells' dad, Garcia Wells, instead of coming alone and arriving at a later time, which they had expected just him, he brought a whole bunch of his buddies to the site in violation of the protocol. (0:29:55)

And they set up tents and camping and brought beer and created a kind of party-like atmosphere in violation of the agreement they had with the extraterrestrial intelligence that were being channeled and interacted with. And so some of these people were trying to have trance channeling and they were holding hands. And when the UFO finally did fly over, people were totally unprepared and were panicked and were diving into their tents, panic-stricken. So this negative example underlines the importance of competent work and serious business. (0:30:40)

It's not a party, something that needs to be carried out according to protocol and with a discipline and high intentions, very high ideals in order to be successful on an ongoing long-term basis. (0:30:55)

So I'll stop for a moment. Yeah, sure. And yeah, so I want to emphasize here that they weren't just receiving messages. These communications were leading to physical encounters. And again, for anybody listening, this is what we would consider CE-5, except Rama had very powerful early success. Within the first weeks of going out into the field. My contact team in 1992 had immediate success as well, but nothing like this kind. (0:31:34)

We were seeing lights in the sky and having multiple sightings that verified our relationship with the phenomena, but not face-to-face encounters, which came up next, which I'll be telling you about in a moment. And that, and did that include the Zendras, right? That's right. The Zendra is the term used, it's Z-E-N-D-R-A, Zendra. It's a dimensional portal. This was the term given to Sixto by Axalt, the alleged extraterrestrial being with whom he was communicating with. (0:32:08)

So after this disaster in February, the Rama team redoubled their efforts. They were instructed to fast for days before field work. They switched over to very strict vegetarianism. And in the process, there were spiritual centers, the chakras were opened up, and this was a spiritual development in the Rama network was a very important part of their program. When I first met the Rama people, I actually thought they were a bunch of priests because that's the kind of high spiritual energy they have. (0:32:49)

Yeah, well, I also want to interject just very quickly and say, you know, renunciate monks or, you know, any kind of Buddhist monks, they pretty much follow the same practice of vegetarianism, very light eating when they eat. And if you go on any kind of vipassana or Buddhist meditation retreat, you're actually asked to do the same things. You know, you eat a vegetarian diet and you eat very lightly even when you do eat, and you're doing hours of meditation, you know, throughout the entire day, you know, for at least 10 days. (0:33:27)

Right, exactly. And I should bring it back to the CE5 network, which is where I cut my teeth on contact work back in the 90s. And although Rama has their protocols, which are very advanced, I should put in that the CE5 network had protocols as well, but it was more limited. And that was prohibitions against smoking, bringing alcohol, beverages, or any kind of street drugs to our contact work and no firearms. (0:33:57)

This was a rule. This is especially important because the United States, you know, we've got hundreds of millions of weapons and it's very important that we follow basic safety guidelines, as well as of giving the activity, the respect that it warrants by not drinking or not having street drugs and not creating a party-like atmosphere, which back in 1974 led to a disastrous encounter with Cixo Paz-Wells and his father, Garcia Paz. Yeah, and you also want to have a clear, coherent mind individually and with a group. (0:34:42)

And, you know, if you're messing around like that, it's gonna not be the proper coherent atmosphere, number one. (0:34:49)

And number two, you know, on another level, it's gonna dismantle your credibility saying, oh, you know, you were just drunk or high or whatever it is. And, you know, you can't be so sure of yourself how that's influencing your subjective experience. Right. And, you know, so let's go on from there to... So what happened was the face-to-face encounter several months later in July, I believe of 1974, another meeting was arranged. (0:35:20)

Again, a small group of the original contact team got the message to go out into the desert. In Chilca, there's a place called La Mina. It means in Spanish, the mine, in English translation, La Mina. And so their destination was some distance from where they parked their vehicles. And as this group of young people were going to the mine, Sixto Paz Wells in the darkness got separated from his companions. (0:35:54)

And according to this UFO Library Magazine report, which was verified by Yolanda Marcino, I mean, I should say was authored by Yolanda Marcino and was verified as accurate by the contact Rama activists that I met with in the 90s. According to this report, as he's walking through the desert, separated from his team, he sees a light in the distance. And he thought, oh my goodness, that's my companions, compañeros in Spanish, comrades. (0:36:27)

So he starts heading towards the light, but as he gets closer, he sees a man, the shape of a man emerge out of the light and he becomes frightened and he wants to run away. But a strange paralysis comes over him and telepathically he receives the message, come, venga. And he was able to overcome his fear. The paralysis was moved and he walked towards the light where he got to meet Axelt, who was described as a tall man, six foot two, with white blonde hair coming down to his shoulders, powerful oriental features, slanted eyes. (0:37:11)

And Axelt explained to him that he was going to enter into a dimensional portal. At that point, Sixto Paz Wells became very light. He felt like his body was being dissolved, felt heat racing through his neck and his head. And all of a sudden he found himself in a place that was not Chilca on the Peruvian coast. He was in a different type of environment, an earthly environment. (0:37:45)

He was told by Axelt that this was a ET base on the moon of Jupiter called, what we call Ganymede, and they call Moreland, M-O-R-E-L-A-N, Moreland. This was allegedly a base that had been established initially for mining operations thousands of years before. It was a place where, allegedly, a million extraterrestrials, some humanoid, some not, worked together and were promoting contact across the cosmos. (0:38:21)

He was able to see domed structures in the distance up against the mountainside, and he received information about this supposedly utopian type of society that existed on Moreland. People there were strict vegetarians. In fact, they did not have food as we know it, but ate a kind of tasteless food supplement that satisfied all their nutritional needs. (0:38:51)

Again, I can't verify any of this. This is third-hand information received too, received by Sixto Paz-Wells during his encounter written up in the UFO Library Magazine report. But this was a place where people only had to work four hours a day. Like Star Trek, there was no money. They spent much time in spiritual pursuits and guided meditation. And it felt like Sixto Paz-Wells was there for hours when he was then taken back through the Zendra and found himself back in Chilca at some distance from his comrades, compañeros, who he then joined together with and told him his amazing encounter. (0:39:36)

He felt he had been there for about three or four hours, but his friends said they had only been separated him for about 15, 20 minutes. So again, you have the element of distortion of space-time as part of the contact experience by this Latin American leader of the Raman Network, Sixto Paz-Wells. Yeah, and you know, just for people listening, we're not saying this is all exactly what happened. (0:40:07)

We're telling the story as per historical record. This is important to Sixto Paz-Wells' story and this is his account of what happened during his contact experiences. Again, so whether you believe it or not... It's... It wasn't Sixto alone. Right, correct, yeah. You know, the Raman Contact Network. So again, this is important for context and so people understand what, you know, Sixto and the other mission contact members have reported during their contact experiences. (0:40:43)

Yeah, now this became part of the cosmology of the Raman Network. And with tens of thousands of activists and dozens of countries all over the world, it's important for North Americans to have some knowledge of not only the history, but the fact that Rama groups, second and third generation Rama activists are still in operation, including in the United States with the work of... Enrique Van Uyven. Enrique Van Uyven and also... Ricardo Gonzales. Gonzales, yes. (0:41:16)

Some of the people in the audience perhaps watching this interview have done field work with them as I have. And so this is important background information of how the North American and the South American contact networks met. So the following week, reportedly, a group of Rama activists again went out to Chilca, again went to the Lamina, and now not just Sixto Paz Wells, but an entire group of Rama activists, young people was allegedly teleported to this base in our solar system, Ganymede. They called it Moreland, the largest moon of Jupiter. Now that moon of Jupiter is interesting because it's unique of the Galilean moons, those were the original moons seen by Galileo through this telescope when he discovered that the earth was not the center of the universe. (0:42:14)

And Ganymede, what we call Ganymede, has a weak but present magnetic field. It has abundance amount of water and ice, and it has deep crevices where conceivably an ET base could have been because Jupiter puts out tremendous amount of electromagnetic radiation. (0:42:40)

So it would be very hard to establish any kind of human or non-human base on the surface. So from Sixto Paz Wells' description, it sounded like they were, if this event actually occurred as he described, they were underground shielded from the radiation on the surface of the planet. Now, another rumor that I should add is that I have a friend, Ralph Steiner. He was also one of the many contact activists that worked in the CE5 network and helped. (0:43:18)

He was a journalist, a coworker of Leslie Keene in KPFA, which is Pacifica Radio in Berkeley area, Northern California. And my friend, Ralph Steiner, this investigative journalist, developed sources, which is kind of an interesting story because he was not aware of the history of Rama when he acquired this information. One of his informants was a young woman who was a temp worker, and she was given an assignment to work in one of these high security labs that was downloading encrypted information from the United States space probes. (0:44:04)

And according to Ralph, some 20 years ago or more, he interviewed her and she claimed that when she was there at the highly secure lab that was receiving encrypted radio communications from US space probes, they had downloaded images of Ganymede. And one of the images was of mining operations visualized on the surface of that Jovian moon. Now, this is very weak information. It's a rumor, it's third hand, but I just wanted to give it as a vignette. (0:44:53)

And by the way, in intelligence work, rumors are very important because human intelligence can guide intelligence operations where confirmatory information can be achieved with other means. So, although you can say this is just a rumor, it was interesting that Ralph had no knowledge of the history of Rama, but he did interview someone who may have been able to corroborate the reality of an ET base on that Jovian moon. (0:45:26)

(transcript 2of2)

（以下はインタビュー動画の文字起こしです。長いので 2分割し、これは後半です。 James Iandoli が聞き手で、ゲストが Joseph Burkes, MD です。）

Yeah, I asked, I begged Ralph to get me access to that young woman. Well, but he said, no, he would not reveal the source. So, I could never verify the details of her employment, the specific facility that she worked in, but it's an interesting story that suggests there might be a reality to this ET base. And getting back to the Rama, now, we're talking about Zendras, and Zendras are essentially interdimensional portals where the supposed ET intelligence can facilitate transportation to another environment. (0:46:06)

Teleportation. Yeah, so, and 601st went through a Zendra with Oxalt, and now you're saying the second time he's going with the entire... That's right, the second time, a week later, this is the summer of 1974, multiple young people were taken to Ganymede. Reportedly, they were brought before a council of 24 elders on the walls of this enormous meeting hall. There was symbols that look like Chinese ideograms, but over the main stage were these 24 elders, senior ETs, some of whom were clearly not human, sat. (0:46:49)

There was a symbol of Star of David and a trident. (0:46:54)

And that image became the logo for the Rama network, which you can see on some of their literature going back into the 70s. So this was reportedly a multiply witness event of teleportation off the earth's surface to another environment. Now, in later programs, when I talk about the virtual experience model, I'll give an alternate explanation for what I believe may have happened to the Rama people. (0:47:22)

I'm not convinced on the basis of this story alone that they were truly transported to the moon in our solar system. But I believe given the track record of Rama, I think that it's likely that those people who came back with a story of their group encounter, this was the truth as they knew it. It was not a fabrication. And Joe, I hate to do this to you, but in just a few seconds, can you explain the virtual hypothesis? (0:47:56)

What you think they just very, very, very quickly. Let me, we're going to get into this in great detail, perhaps in future interviews. What happened to me was that in the course of field work during the first five years of my interest in UFOs, the intelligence behind the phenomena took me through a series of contact experiences where they actually showed me how they create illusions as a mechanism of contact. (0:48:23)

And so I've developed a schema called the virtual experience model. The virtual experience of the first kind is a holographic type of projection in the sky that appears to be an object, but has no solid structure. Or it can be an image that's projected into the occipital lobe of the witnesses so that one person will see the UFO and other people there will not. (0:48:51)

So this comes out of actual field investigations during the 1990s. A virtual experience of the second kind is a kind of virtual reality where the consciousness of an individual is captured by the intelligence. And it seems just like in the movie Matrix, more real than real, but the encounter occurs not in a physical reality, but in a kind of Matrix-like reality where at the level of consciousness, there's an interaction. (0:49:24)

You wanna call it virtual reality, you wanna call it Matrix-like reality, but seems very real and can be confusing to the experiencer who then goes away from the experience saying, I've been on board spacecraft and yet they've gone nowhere. Right, okay. Third, a virtual experience to the third kind is a virtual memory where a couple drives home at night, they go to bed and in the morning they wake up saying, my goodness, wasn't it amazing? (0:49:55)

We had that encounter, that UFO flew over us and we had missing time, amazing. Well, none of those things actually happened in our reality, but this intelligence, and later when I get into a full discussion, this intelligence has the ability to create artificial memories or memories in plant that seem as real to you and me as what we remember we had for breakfast this morning. (0:50:18)

So this astounding side capability is described in the virtual experience model, which is very controversial. (0:50:26)

When I first unveiled it 20 years ago, I lost half my friends who were furious at me. What I saw wasn't real, that was just a holographic projection. They didn't want to hear that. And I can understand that, because to them it's almost like saying it never happened, in other words. Well, sure. You're absolutely right. And the implications of that is that somehow the intelligence tricked them, almost like in a subconscious level, rather than what they took away from the experience as the main thing. (0:51:02)

But I do want to get back to the Rama thing. I thought it was important for the context of this conversation that it's possible that the Zenduras are part of this virtual experience. Yes, exactly. So now we have the Mission Rama group in a group setting have this Zendra or portal experience. What happens after that? Well, what happened after it was the story of Rama. They had tremendous success. (0:51:33)

You can maybe mention the press coverage that they had. People from all over the world came to witness these programs and encounters. Latin American and Spanish television crews filmed some of these encounters. Many books were written about them all in Spanish, except for the ones that James mentioned. The Invitation, I think it's called by Six of Us Whales. And it became a worldwide network. (0:52:02)

At one point they even allegedly had teams operating in the former Soviet Union which to me was astounding because as part of my physician piece work I traveled to the former Soviet Union and I know that that country was a goddamn police state with KGB monitoring all kinds of interactions and yet Rama had allegedly spiritually based activists in the former Soviet Union doing contact work. (0:52:36)

So they were in Egypt, Europe, North and South America, practically everywhere. And things developed well for about 15-20 years, and then problems started to occur. They were, as inevitably happens, they were falling outs. As we can get into some of the politics of Rama, perhaps at a later time, because what I wanted to share with you is a very important series of encounters, which I believe we still have time for. (0:53:12)

Yeah, sure. And I'll just throw this question in here now. Rama was operating from the early, 1974 up until really present day. Mission Rama is still in different forms operational. Now, had Dr. Greer ever mentioned Mission Rama? Because he's doing basically the same thing, going out and initiating contact. Did Dr. Greer ever mission or try to contact Mission Rama? Yeah, this is somewhat embarrassing to me. (0:53:52)

Because my work in the peace and social justice movements involved a lot of efforts to build solidarity between people working for what we imagine was a better world. And so money, support, publicity, went both ways. When I traveled to Latin America, and I spoke as a teenager to activists, the year after the massacre at Tolte Loco, I told them about our peace movement. (0:54:19)

And they told me about their efforts. And we developed mutual support to make us feel that, well, we're not alone, that we have this is a worldwide effort. Well, in my naivete, perhaps, I imagine that Dr. Greer would embrace a similar posture of solidarity, not only receive my information about Rama, but actually mentioned their work as well. (0:54:50)

He did not. In the five years that I was working closely with the CSADI director, I had never heard him once refer to Mission Rama. When Mission Rama people were brought to a meeting in San Francisco, and this was from my friend Joe Vallejo, 747 pilot who played the role of liaison between myself and Rama people because he was able to fly to Miami. He actually flew and did fieldwork with Rama in Peru. Captain Joe, as we called him. (0:55:17)

He brought Fernando Lamaco, which I'd like to talk about in a few minutes, who was the heavy Rama heavy activist, retired dental surgeon to meet Dr. Greer. Dr. Greer was polite. He greeted Dr. Lamaco, but he had nothing to say to him other than identifying him and greeting him. (0:55:43)

And he never referred to a Rama that I'm aware of then or since. And I can only suspect that the reason has to do with Dr. Greer's primary focus on his efforts to the exclusion of others. He, during all those years, he would repeatedly make the statement that his group that I was member of the board of directors in, and also as head of public education and outreach, and was empowered to speak for the organization Center for the Study of Extraterrestrials. Dr. Greer repeatedly said that his group was the only one in the world that was carrying out this kind of investigation. (0:56:33)

You know, you could say that's true, and that his group was the only one called CSETI, but given the track record of Rama and the enormous effort and contributions they've made, it wasn't totally true. And it was, it was, it was bothersome in a red flag for me, that there was some problems with Dr. Greer. He was singularly focused on his needs. I believe he suffers then and now from excessive pride, despite his many contributions. (0:57:02)

And so I, but that didn't stop me from talking about Rama. For the last 25 years, well, it's actually more. It's, it's 28 years since I made contact with Rama. I've always told everyone about this, share this information. I encouraged North American activists to meet Enrique Villanueva from Peru, and then also Ricardo Gonzalez. And we've been able to establish liaison, people from within the CE5 network, separate from the leadership, or what I would say, misleadership of the CSETI director. We've been able to build ties that are going forward. (0:57:40)

And I'm very happy that I played a small role in facilitating that, along with Joe Vallejo. And also, we should always mention Giorgio Pianzenza, who continues to play that very important role of liaison, explaining the important ongoing work and the historical significance of Mission Rama. Right. And I, you know, I heard about Mission Rama through you, I forget what year, maybe when we first started talking, and I started looking into it. (0:58:12)

And I was amazed that, you know, you know, again, the CE5, what we call it, it's contact work, had been going on for over two decades, you know, before CSETI was established and doing CE5 fieldwork. So, you know, I think it's incredibly important that people are aware of this history of contact work. So, you wanted to go on and speak about a few experiences now. (0:58:35)

Yeah, let's go on, because I want to talk about Fernando Lamaco. And Fernando is a retired oral surgeon. He was born and raised in Peru, educated there. Peru went through some very terrible times in the 1970s and 80s. There was an armed uprising by a group of crazy Marxist Maoists called Sendero Luminoso. These were rural guerrillas who followed what they imagined was a Cuban model of organizing an army of peasants to overthrow the central government. (0:59:24)

And to support their operations, they carried out terrorist attacks, killed government officials, kidnapped middle-class and wealthy people for ransom to pay for their insurrection. And it took many years of fighting to finally suppress this guerrilla uprising. I should mention that Peru was a right place for revolutionary activities because of the great number of injustices that the indigenous people suffered as a result of the lack of sensitivity and care from the central government. (1:00:05)

The central government facilitated building European settlements in the indigenous people's lands, taking over the land. There were mining operations, which is a source of wealth in the country, but also lumber industries, tearing out the rainforests and the wealth of the country. (1:00:26)

So these indigenous peoples, many of them speaking only their native languages, have been in strife with the central government for generations. And on the basis of that strife, opportunist groups like Sendero Luminoso appeared on the scene in the 70s, 80s. So my friend, I met him in the American Public Health Association. I had heard about Arama Heavy was in the Bay Area. And when the American Public Health Association had a meeting in San Francisco in 1993, I set up a CE5 table at this American Public Health Association meeting in the convention hall, surrounded by thousands of health professionals where I would show UFO videos and would recruit people to give money or join the Center for the Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence. It was a pretty gutsy thing to do because I was an ER doctor myself. (1:01:31)

And I, although I had mentioned to people in my medical center what I was doing, I really came out big time there in public, promoting the message that we can engage with the intelligence associated with the phenomena. At that time, I was totally convinced it was ET. So I heard about Fernando Limaco from Giorgio Piancenza and my friend Joe Vallejo. And I invited this retired dental surgeon who was now living in the Bay Area. And he came to sit at the table, and he helped me staff it. (1:02:06)

And I would, we chatted in Spanish and English because I was at that time pretty fluent in Spanish. So I spoke Spanish in the ER all the time to Hispanic patients. And he told me about his story. He left out some of the more unpleasant details of his life. But I was able to find out from Joe, who was more an intimate friend of his, that he had been forced to leave Peru because of the fact that his daughter had been a victim of an intended kidnapping, where these armed guerrillas came to their home. (1:02:50)

And she was 14 years old at the time, they pulled her out. And he charged after them with nothing other than, and this is kind of comical, he became enraged. He grabbed, according to Joe, a vacuum cleaner and started charging at these guerrillas, who we don't know what they saw. But when they saw Fernando charging at them, must have thought it was a machine gun or something because they let go of his daughter. (1:03:18)

And according to Joe's account, Dr. Lamarco was able to get his daughter back from them. And they then were able to emigrate to the United States. But because of the language problems, he was not able to get certified as an oral surgeon, he would have to go through a whole residency. But he did get technical work in terms of building prosthesis, and he was able to be employed and support his family. (1:03:51)

So I got to meet Fernando. And it was, I mean, you meet Fernando He was my age, early 40s, robust, not very tall guy, broad shoulders, his skin had copper color, it was clearly of mixed ancestry. He looked like an indigenous person from the Andes, his eyes were deep inside his eyes, his eyes were deep inside his face. (1:04:15)

And when he talked about Rama, in Spanish, you could see the idealism and the zeal that he had in terms of the contact program. It was it was a truly remarkable experience to chat with him. And his story was that in 1990, he had already emigrated to the United States. And Rama, because it was Spanish language based, they had many people who were not documented. (1:04:46)

And some of the contact workers were are called in the press illegals, or what we call undocumented workers. And one particular contact worker that was part of their operation, because they then started doing field work in the United States, not far from Mount Shasta. He got in trouble with the, with the the Immigration and Naturalization Service now under Homeland Security. So he drove his car to the Castroville area. (1:05:19)

So no, not far from Monterey. And he was driving there to Gilroy to meet with this Hispanic contact worker to give him information about how he could avoid being deported. Because this Rama person was under threat of deportation for illegal status. And since Fernando knew something about the process of getting legal status, he went down there to help his friend. (1:05:44)

As he was driving back, and I know this was the highway, Highway 152, because I've been on it a million times, going back and forth between the coast and Highway 5, which is the main thoroughfare from Northern and Southern California. While he's driving through these fields, he hears this sound like a metronome, metallic. And he then is able to hear the word Paititi, Paititi, Paititi, Paititi, Paititi. He's from Peru, but he's a city dweller. (1:06:14)

And he doesn't know what Paititi means, but he hears Paititi, Paititi, Paititi. And he, he looks over, and there's a flying saucer landed in the field. And he gets out, he looks at it, there's another vehicle looking at it. They watch it for a while, and I believe the saucer then leaves. (1:06:33)

And the sound still, he is ringing in his head, Paititi, Paititi, Paititi. So he then finds out from the Rama network that there's going to be an encounter in Peru. And he travels to Peru, and there is a convention of all the Rama people from all over the world, from Central America, Brazil. There was even one guy from Egypt. And what happened was that the automatic writers, the, they call that polygraph, psychographia is another term for automatic writing. (1:07:12)

They had people from all over the world had received the same message that there was going to be a major encounter in Peru. It was going to take place in Paititi. And at this international meeting of Rama activists with over 200 people present, the leadership of Rama told them that we're going to have this encounter, and we want to know who in the crowd is willing to come forward and go to Paititi. Because this place was not easy to get to. (1:07:48)

There was no roads. It was on the other side of Peru in a rainforest area where indigenous people lived. And it would be a very arduous journey to get there. And the Rama leadership said, who's willing to go? Everybody stood up. Said we're willing to go. Yeah. Subsequent communications, it was determined that only six people were going to be selected by name. And my friend, Fernando Lamaco was one of them. (1:08:15)

They also found out through automatic writing that these people were the only ones who were going to go to Paititi. And if there were any, anyone could make it, there would be no substitutions. So of course, Sexta Paz Wells was there, Fernando Lamaco was there. In my notes somewhere, I have the names of the other contact activists in the Rama network who were chosen. (1:08:39)

And they set about going into the rainforest region. They brought with themselves a pup tent, a metal pot, and about 40 pounds of beans and rice, or maybe more, 50 pounds that they carried in with them. They had a guide to take them into this area, because there were no roads. Some of the areas were so rough that they had to use machetes to cut their way through the brush. (1:09:12)

And they navigated not only by stars, but also by intuition, because they were, or they felt they were, in communication with the intelligence behind the phenomena that guided them. They got to a certain point, and they found that their video camera, which they had, you know, they had just bought a fancy VH video camera with multiple batteries that were fully charged. All the video equipment stopped working, because the batteries were completely drained. (1:09:48)

And they had been totally operational when they tested them before they set out on their trek into the jungle. So they buried their video equipment under a tree and, you know, marked it and so that they would be able to find it. And they continued. At one point, several days, and it took them about a week to get to their destination. (1:10:12)

At one point, the guide said, we're not going any further. And they said, what do you mean? We're going to Paititi. And the guide, according to my friend Fernando, said beyond this point, the people out there pointing towards pointing towards Paititi, they eat people. The story was that the indigenous people were cannibals. (1:10:39)

At least that was the story. And this guide was scared, and he didn't want to go any further. But they were determined to go. So they bid goodbye to this frightened tour guide, and continued into the jungle. They had to cross many rivers that were full of crocodiles. (1:10:57)

The rivers were their source of water. They had this pup tent. At one point, they were so exhausted that they, after the day's hike, they didn't even set up their tent. And they lay down on the side of a stream, and went to sleep huddled together. They didn't even eat. When they woke up, they found themselves surrounded by poisonous snakes that had crawled onto them, because they were attracted by their body heat of the Rama people. (1:11:36)

But you can imagine their terror. But they managed to slowly extricate themselves from these venomous snakes that were over them. The snakes then went back into the river. So this gives you some insight into the challenges and the determination of the Rama people, who all the while continued to meditate. And they got sustenance from their beans and rice, physical sustenance, but also they got spiritual sustenance and encouragement from their meditations and communications with the alleged ETs. At one point, they were quite frightened, because coming across the river was a group of indigenous men who were in a cutout canoe. (1:12:16)

They were armed with bows and arrows and spears. And they were like, oh my gosh, what's going to happen? When they got to talk to the indigenous, these were hunters. These were very primitive people who sustained themselves in the rainforest from hunting and gathering. And this may be hard for people in the audience to believe, but this is what I heard from my friend Fernando Lamarco, retired oral surgeon and leader in Rama for 40 years. (1:12:47)

He said that when they were able to communicate with these huntsmen, they were extremely friendly. In fact, the alleged ETs had telepathically communicated to these hunters in their dreams that a group of city folk were coming, and they should help them. And as a peace offering, one of these hunters gave to Fernando his bow and his arrows. Now, that was the way he made a living. (1:13:29)

That was the way he fed his family. So, that peace offering had great significance to Fernando, who graciously accepted the gift. And then the indigenous people that they were now in communication with guided them further. Into the rainforest to get to Paititi. I'm going to stop for a second. If you have a question, I'm going to drink some water. Sure. So, I'm just going to interject and say this is all part of their program siting, correct? (1:13:58)

Yes, this has all been set up at the level of consciousness. Remote viewers, I should say, automatic riders, selecting the team. Sixto Paz-Wells was there, Fernando Lomaco and others, international team. One day before they met the extraterrestrials, or what they believe were extraterrestrials, while meditation, they all had an out-of-body experience, where they were taken on board at the level of consciousness. (1:14:32)

They knew they were one day away from Paititi. They got to Paititi the following day. And according to Fernando Lomaco, every single one, I think there were five or six on the team, were taken up in a blue beam, taken on to the belly of the craft, into the belly of the craft, where they had a friendly exchange with representatives of what was called the Great White Brotherhood. Now, that sounds like a racist term, because the White Brotherhood is the name given to the racist white supremacist group, but it had nothing to do. (1:15:14)

They called them the White Brotherhood, the Great White Brother, because they were wearing white robes, and because their bodies weren't encased in light. (1:15:19)

And he had an encounter. Now, if you question the reality of it, Joe Vallejo told me this story. Fernando didn't tell it to me, but according to my friend, Captain Joe Vallejo, 747 pilot, who was my liaison with Rama, he said, Fernando told him that one of the people who were taken up on the blue beam became so terrified during the process that he peed in his pants. (1:15:52)

That says to me that high probability that if this event occurred as described, there was a definite physical component to it. I don't think this was necessarily a virtual experience of the second or third kind. And so, they finally get to Petiti, and they're, I guess, taken on board a craft. I don't have any details on that encounter. (1:16:18)

But they then were returned, and they went back the arduous trek. They did receive, as many other Rama activists, the cosmology that guided their group. And according to the Rama cosmology, which developed during that time, and this is, you may say cynically, this is typical contactee fair or fairy tales, but according to the cosmology they received from the alleged ETs, Earth is going through a period of rapid change. (1:16:47)

We are moving from a level of technological barbarism to a higher stage, not only of material development, but spiritual development. And this is why the Rama people emphasized spiritual development among all their volunteer contact workers. According to the Rama cosmology, Earth is going through a very important period of its evolution. And it's an evolution that's not only an evolution of material civilization, in terms of advanced technology, but of spiritual development. (1:17:24)

Rama people, like many in the New Age subculture, talk about vibration. And according to their cosmology, the extraterrestrials who are technologically and spiritually advanced inhabit realms where higher levels of vibration are necessary in order to exist. They also said that coming down to our level of vibration shortens the lives of the individual ETs, who venture into what you might describe as madhouse Earth, a level of existence that the Buddha reportedly called the nightmare of the day. (1:18:07)

This is what we have created on this beautiful planet. War, racism, starvation, endless forms of brutality and exploitation. But the extraterrestrials, according to the Rama cosmology, recognize that we have the opportunity to evolve, and they take it as their sacred duty to assist in that evolution. And this is, I must say, I've received limited telepathic communications similar to this. (1:18:36)

And for people who are skeptical, say, you know, typical contacty fare. But these are messages that have guided the contact network called Mission Rama, originally called Rama, then Mission Rama, now spelled not R-A-M-A, but R-A-H-M-A, which means Ra for Sun, Ma for Earth, and H in the middle for humanity. Yeah. Yeah, and it's pretty remarkable how, you know, some of these similar themes come to just about any experiencer that you talk to has the same message, same impression, same communication about these very similar ideals, I guess you can say, you know, of Earth and the potential and the kind of awakening on the planet and the potential we have to either move forward or, you know, in some cases have catastrophes occur. (1:19:34)

Right. So they talk about the spiritual development of civilizations as if they were rungs on a ladder, and you climb up the ladder. And as each extraterrestrial civilization becomes more sophisticated and evolved, raises their vibration, they have a moral responsibility to assist other cultures. And there is supposedly a galactic federation, which for those Star Trek fans, you know, are part of that concept. (1:20:01)

The extraterrestrials allegedly are here to help raise our vibration, to expand our consciousness so that we can not only survive these terrible times, but to thrive. And they said that the entire galaxy of civilizations, and this might be one explanation for the multiple phenotypes that contact experiences describe, there's dozens of different appearances of greys and reptilians and mantoids and some things that are so strange energy beings that have no particular form. (1:20:39)

If you believe in the cosmology of Rama, the multiple phenotypes that people are describing, phenotype is the technical term for category according to appearance. Okay, phenotype and genotype would be category according to genetic makeup. So all these different phenotypes are here because we are actually the greatest show in the galaxy. Multiple civilizations are allegedly here assisting us, not just for them, but for us, but also for them. (1:21:15)

Because according to Rama, Earth is actually a spiritual dynamo. The potential spiritual energy of this planet, because of the large population and what we have endured, is so gigantic that if we can jump to the next level of evolutionary development, it will also allow the other civilizations that are assisting us to move up on their evolutionary ladder. (1:21:43)

Well, if you hear this kind of message again and again, eventually you believe it. And the Rama people sincerely believed this story. And this is why they were so determined to carry out the contact work decade after decade. (1:21:58)

Despite the betrayals, internal fighting, a similar process happened with Ciceti, that I was a member of. The ugly influence of money and accusations that Sixto Paz-Wells was making up stories and exaggerating. And there were large amounts of money that were raised for both the CE5 network leader, Dr. Steven Greer, and there was also large amounts of money raised for Sixto Paz-Wells. And whenever there's large amounts of money, there's going to be fighting over money and fighting over publicity and attention. (1:22:45)

And so I just wanted to leave the audience with an understanding that the contact network is incredibly difficult and these challenges are going to come up again and again. But the intelligence behind the phenomena is no matter how much the ruling elites would like them to say adios and bug off, it's my impression that the non-human intelligences behind this phenomena are determined to participate in this unfolding of contact with them. (1:23:18)

And they're not going away anytime soon to the consternation of military people who would like their training exercise areas not to be invaded by UFOs or the multinational corporations that might not want to integrate free energy into our technological culture that would end the empire of oil, or the religious fanatics who say, yeah, ET is real and it's the devil. This issue fundamentally challenges all terrestrial elites, but in my judgment, not the peace-loving people of the world who want peace, material development, and most important of all to get it, spiritual development that involves expansion of our consciousness, where we no longer think of ourselves as the Arabs have an expression, me against my brother, my brother and me against my cousin, my cousin and me against the world, that we can unite in the United States and in every other country and build a planetary civilization not based on mutual robbery, but on enlightened cooperation. (1:24:37)

One planet, one people is the way the extraterrestrials, I suspect, if they are from other star systems, view us. And the message of solidarity of brotherhood and sisterhood made large and carried to the cosmos is the driving force behind Rama, CE5 network, and many other networks that are operating below the radar, because they've been instructed by their, if you want to use an intelligence term, so-called ET handlers. (1:25:07)

They've been instructed not to seek publicity, because the intelligence services on this planet have been monitoring the contact network for decades. Since they cannot control the phenomena, the intelligence services follow the people around who are engaged with the phenomena. And I suspect that they see Joe Birx and James Ian Doley and many others as kind of like the idiot boys and girls that hold the goose that lays the golden eggs. They're not interested in little boy. (1:25:42)

They're not interested in the goose, they want the golden eggs. And that's why they are not very successful in establishing liaison with these intelligences. And I suspect also that's the reason why every story that you hear about alien United States government liaison is just another story. I don't think there's any reality in it. And I base that on the fact that in order to achieve some basic level of communication, a certain degree of spiritual transformation is necessary. (1:26:22)

I don't see that happening in the FBI, or the CIA, or the American Chamber of Commerce, or all the ruling organs of elite power on this planet. So I wanted to leave the listeners with that perspective. Because if we're going to build a contact movement, and not just this loose network of well-intentioned individuals, we're going to need to dedicate ourselves on improving ourselves, means overcoming the pernicious effects or controlling the pernicious effects of ego. (1:26:57)

We need to identify not with our own fate, with the fate of our planet, and the fate of intelligent life in the cosmos in general. (1:27:03)

So I could go on at length about more adventures. I know we have a limited amount of time, I can continue with the storytelling of Mission Rama, and the work I did with them and also Joe Vallejo, my 747 friend. But we can stop here. And I'll let you answer any, ask any questions you might have. Yeah, let's, let's bring it to a stop here, just because we're going on pretty long here. (1:27:31)

And again, we're going to be having a series of discussions. So we can always come back and revisit the Rama topic. And actual your, your, your story more so, your involvement with Rama, with your fieldwork group, even some of the stories with, you know, you had encounters with intelligence community. And, and, and, again, we didn't get to Rama's ruling out system, but we'll get around to those things. (1:28:07)

So again, thank you so much for coming on, Dr. Burks. And we got a lot more coming for people listening. So in the coming weeks, and onwards, we're going to be having a series of discussions from everything from Contact and Rama, the virtual experience model, and much more. So thank you so much, Dr. Burks, and I'll speak to you next time. Okay. Transcribed by https://otter.ai (1:28:26)