Travis Watson : 森の中のポルターガイスト現象と UFO/bigfoot 現象の共通点を語る：文字起こし＋和訳
前置き
Travis Watson がタイトルの趣旨の重要な指摘をしている。全文の文字起こしを記録しておく。いずれ AI での分析に役立つ筈。
FasterWhisper AI(large-v2 model) + DeepL(2024-07 model)
▼和訳 展開
今夜はトラビス・ワトソン氏をお迎えします。やあ トラヴィス 戻ってきたよ 君とやり取りしたメールを 見返してたんだ 番組に出るためにね もう4、5回は出てるかな。 (00:01:09)
そうだね。あなたの本のほとんどに何度も出演してきたわ。今回はどうなるかわからない。見てみないと。 そうだね。今回はかなり簡潔だった。収録を始める前に言ったように、この本は私が書いた本の中で最も難しい本だと思う。そのトピックに興味がなかったからとか、そういう理由ではなくて、行きたいウサギの穴がたくさんあったからなんだ。 (00:01:46)
そして、ご存知のように、この時点で私の本を全て読んでいる皆さんもご存知のように、私がこ のようなものを書くときの目標は、トピックについてかなり簡潔な概要を書き、そして、あることに興味があれば、それを調べに行くことができるように、多くの参考文献を提供することです。さらに調べたりすることができる。 (00:02:07)
それが私の目標のようなものです。というのも、この本でポルターガイストについて研究するのは、本当に本当に大変だったんだ。 (00:02:45)
そう。だから、これを簡潔にまとめるのはとても難しかった。そして、時々この本を見て、ああ、簡潔すぎた。もっと書くべきだった。 と思うこともあれば、ああ、これ以上書いたら、2巻セットになってしまう、と思うこともある。 (00:03:11)
そう、ジョシュア・カッチンの本になってしまう。 (00:03:11)そうだね、ジョシュア・カッチンの本になるね。まあ、そんなことは言いたくなかったけど、そうだね、2巻セットになってたかもしれないね。だから、私はあなたに感謝しているんだ。 (00:03:39)
どういたしまして。 (00:03:42)
そう、どういたしまして。この本「森のポルターガイスト」を書くきっかけになったのは、ソラヤだったんだ。ソラヤは何度もこう言ったんだ。 そうだね。彼がこのように言うのを、私は『Word of the Road go』で何度も聞いたよ。 (00:04:11)
彼の言う通りだと思った。それで、自分ならどうアプローチするかって考えたんだ。 (00:04:40)そして、この本は挑戦だった。 (00:04:40)
そして、人々の興味をそそるような形で物事を表現し、なおかつ、特定のトピックに興味があれば、さらに研究を進めるためのリソースを提供できたと思う。
(00:05:02)
そして、これが幻の黒い犬に ついての話だ。幻の黒い犬についての話です。カナダの怪物やミステリー、あるいはカナダのサスカッチについて話そう。話したい事件は山ほどある。 (00:05:19)
この本でも同じようなアプローチをとることができたかもしれない。というのも、このトピックは、確かにケースワークに適しているのですが、先ほども言ったように、もし私が引用できるケースをすべて紹介していたら、2巻セットになったでしょう。 (00:05:45)
、何十万字という長さになっただろう。だから、この本での挑戦は、簡潔であることと、トピックをサービスすること、同時に、数回で簡単に読めるような本にまとめることだったんだ。だから、かなりの挑戦だったよ。 (00:06:15)
そして、そんなあなた、どうぞ。(00:06:15)そして、そういう人たちのために、どうぞ。主要なポイントをすべてカバーし、退屈することなく、素晴らしい例をいくつか挙げてくれた。そうだね。それが心配だったんだ。僕は些細なことが大好きだから、ジョシュアの本を読んで、ああ、これはとてもクールだ、と思うことができるんだ。 (00:06:38)
そうだね。でも、多くの人が、要点だけ言って、何が言いたいの？あるいは、20ページも前に言いたいことを言ったじゃないか。この話はもうやめて、他の話をしよう。だから僕は、そういう読者にアピールできるような男になろうとしてるんだ。 (00:06:56)
ちょっと話を戻して、一体何の話をしているんだろうと思っている人のために、本の名前は『森のポルターガイスト』です。これはまた、ソラヤやティム・レナーやジョシュア・カッチンや、北米や世界中の森を彷徨っている大型の二足歩行の 霊長類というだけでなく、サスカッチという存在には何かもっと大きなものがあると信じているすべての人たちにちなんだものです。 (00:07:23)
私がこの本で特に興味を持ったのは、BFROがクラスBと呼ぶ遭遇である。つまり、人々は森の中で経験をするが、実際には何も見ていない。枝が折れる音や二足歩行の足音が聞こえるかもしれない。石を投げつけられることもある。奇妙な、木でできた建造物に出くわすこともある。 (00:07:55)
サスカッチの研究者たちが、ああ、こういうものを見たら、その地域にはサスカッチがいるんだ、と言っているようなものばかりです。 (00:08:00)
そしてソラヤが指摘したように、もしそのようなものをたくさん持っていって、誰かの家に置いたら、ポルターガイスト事件になる。それで、ポルターガイストについてよく知らないから、何か調べてみようと思ったんだ。そして、この本を書く過程で発見したのは、人々が何も見ていないクラスBの遭遇の多くには、非常に明確な超常現象的側面がある、あるいはある可能性があるということです。 (00:08:40)
私は、森のどこかに未知の生き物がさまよっているかもしれないという考えを否定しない、と何度も言ってきた。 しかし、そこにある膨大な証拠、つまり、石を投げつけられたりする古典的なクラスBの遭遇を、アメリカやカナダ全土に分布しているものを見てみると、珍しい二足歩行の霊長類が、さまざまな場所で、さまざまな人々にさまざまなことをしているなどということは、あり得ないということになる。 (00:09:17)
私の考えでは、とにかく何かあるはずだ。世界のかくれんぼチャンピオンが森の中 をうろうろしているよりも、もっと何かあるはずだ。失礼。それがこの本の出発点だった。ウィレットが書いた『イルミネーションズ』（彼の名前はいつも忘れてしまうんだけど）を読んだときに、このアイデアが浮かんだんだ。その後、別の何かに出会って、ふと、これはビッグフットにも当てはまる、と思ったんだ。 (00:09:55)
そして調べれば調べるほど、そうだ、ポルターガイストは部分的にあなたの予想通りに擬態しているんだ、と。ポルターガイストは幽霊のような音を出すかもしれない。(00:10:16)そうだね。 (00:10:16)
そう。ポルターガイストの事例をよく調べてみると、面白いことがわかるんだ。 ポルターガイストとはドイツ語で、文字通り騒がしい幽霊という意味です。ポルターガイストはドイツ語で、文字通り騒々しい幽霊を意味する。 (00:10:40)
特定のタイプの幽霊のことで、非常に強い運動的な活動が特徴です。ポルターガイストのケースを調べ始めると、ポルターガイストは家に閉じこもった状態で、さまざまな音を出すことができるということがわかります。 (00:11:19)
そう。私の問題は、エンフィールド事件やブラック・モンク事件がよく起こることです。そうだね。混乱している。ああ、それは理解できる。 (00:11:23)
さて、そのうちの一つ、ブラックモンク事件だったと思いますが、引用しないでください。 このポルターガイストが家の周りにいた時期の終わり頃に、納屋の動物のような鳴き声がしたんです。ええ、それがモンクの事件だったと思います。 (00:11:49)
家の中で。ええ。そうだ。そういうことがあるんです。古典的なタロットの本『幻影』に出 てくる事件について話したんだけど、その人が見たか聞いたか、何も見なかったんだけど、家の前の門が開く音がしたんだ。そして、歩道で足音が聞こえた。彼は窓の外を見ていた。 (00:12:15)
何も見えなかった。でも、その時、彼は、文字通り、踵を返して彼を揺り動かすような、ひどい悲鳴を聞いたんだ。興味深いのは、彼の妻はすぐそばの部屋にいたのに、何も聞こえなかったということだ。ええ。でも、彼はこのひどい、ひどい悲鳴を聞いたんだ。 (00:12:36)
私たちはいつも森の中でサスカッチの声を聞く。サスクワッチの鳴き声が他の鳴き声と違うのは、その音量の大きさだとよく言われるだろ？この人は音量が大きいと言っている。彼は、これは本当に、本当に大きかったと言っているんだ。そして、あまりの大きさに、またしても、彼の踵を返したんだ。でも、他の誰にも聞こえなかった。 (00:12:57)
結局のところ、これは古典的な怪談話だった。結局、この男はその日の午後、借家の一人と言葉を交わしていた。そしてどうやらこの人はその晩自殺したらしい。そして、彼はこの幽霊体験をした。そうなんだ。つまり、彼はとても古典的な怪談なんだ。 (00:13:25)
しかし、人々が「サスカッチがいることは間違いない。私たちは、超常現象や特にポルターガイストの言い伝えの中に、それを模倣する事例が実際にあることを発見しました。 足跡の話ですね。1800年代に起こった古典的なフォーディアンの出来事のひとつで、誰もそれが何なのか解明していないのですが、英国で雪の中に長い足跡を残したものがありました。 (00:14:10)
そして面白いことに、そいつは家までやってきて、屋根の上に足跡を見つけたんだ。屋根を横切り、また下りてくる。僕のお気に入りのひとつだよ。 その話は大好きなんだけど、何かが足跡をつけるという、古典的なフォーディアンの物語なんだ。 (00:14:30)
この本にはポルターガイストの事件も出てきます。この事件にはたくさんの水が絡んでいたからだ。その一連の事件の最後の方で、母親が階下に降りてきて、玄関に向かう廊下に敷いてあったカーペットが、なぜか水で飽和状態になっているのを見つけたんだ。 (00:14:59)
そしてこのようなことは事件全体を通して起こっていたんですね。どこからともなく水たまりができていたんです。実際、ある時は地元の水道局を呼んで、家の中の配管を見てもらったんだ。 (00:15:16)
どんどん出てくるんですね。この場合、カーペットは飽和状態でした。彼女はそこに立っていて、ふにゃふにゃのカーペットに足跡がつくのが見えたんだ。だから、たとえ強力な物的証拠について話していたとしても、誰もが、ああ、この足跡を見つけた、このギブスを見ろ、と思うだろう。熱隆起とか、そういう楽しいものもある。 (00:15:50)
フォリアナには、ポルターガイストとしてひとくくりにされた、目に見えない力が足跡を作っているケースがあります。サスカッチの言い伝えで聞くような、石を投げたりするようなことは、すべて古典的なポルターガイストのものなんだ。 (00:16:27)
そうでないもの、例えば木の構造のようなものでさえ、レゴを部屋中に投げつけたり、重い家具を持ち上げたり、そういうことができる力があるのなら、そういう力が木の枝をねじり合わせることもできないわけがない。 ティム・レナーが話していた話なんだけど、私がアルバトウィッチに行ったとき、公開番組だったかパトロン・コーナーだったか忘れたけど、ビッグフットとの遭遇を報告した人の話があったんだ。 (00:17:00)
そして彼はその男と話をしていて、もちろん彼は今、他に何か奇妙なことが起きていないか人々に尋ねている。(00:17:00)その人は、幽霊が出たんだ。その幽霊は基本的にビッグフットのような形をしていたんだけど、それが幻のように見えたから、それが関係しているとは考えもしなかったらしいんだ。 ティムは、ああ、これがビッグフットなんだな、と思ったんだ。 (00:17:23)
つまり、この本を通して私が指摘していることのひとつは、「道はどこへ行ったのか」についての対話の中で、私たちが何度も話してきたことのひとつでもあるのですが、超常現象の至るところで見られる「サイロ化」です。サスカッチの研究者はサスカッチを研究する。そして、ゴーストハンターは幽霊を探し、UFO研究家はUFOを研究する。 (00:17:55)
そして、この本の中で私が言っていることのひとつは、サスカッチのサイロから一歩外に出ると、Xが見えるということです。それはフォーティーン現象です。それはフォーティーン現象であり、1万フィート（約1,000メートル）の高さから見て、ちょっと待てよ、と言わなければならないものなんだ。そうそう、サスカッチの言い伝えにはこういうことがあるんだ。サスカッチの言い伝えで典型的なのは、石を投げることだ。石を投げつけられてキャンプ場から追い出される、というのはよく聞く話だ。モンスター・クエスト』のサスクワッチ襲撃のエピソードでも見たよ ね。番組の最後に、何かが屋根に石を投げつけて、みんなサスカッチだと大騒ぎするんだ。サスカッチがいることを証明するために、科学者たちがここにいるんだ。そして何かが起こるとすぐに、みんなパニックになって家の中に隠れてしまう。 (00:19:03)
ええ、その通りです。恐怖に怯えたかわいそうなカメラマンが一人、サーマルカメラを持って玄関に立ち、何かを見つけようとしている。でも、屋根の上で石がポンポン鳴ってるでしょ？もちろん、サスカッチの人たちはみんな、石を投げるのはサスカッチがこの地域にいる証拠だと言うんだけどね。 (00:19:26)
、ポルターガイストの研究をしている人たちのところに行くと、ギレル・プレイフェアのような人がいて、彼は、石を投げるのはポルターガイスト活動の典型的な兆候だ、と言うんです。エンフィールドの事件では、新聞社のカメラマンがレゴで頭を殴られたんだ。 (00:19:56)
彼は悪い時に悪い場所に立っていて、何かがズンズンやってきた。プレイフェアが1週間後に彼に会ったとき、彼はまだこのあざが残っていたんだ。つまり、この力が何であれ、翼を広げているんだ。石がなかったから、家にあった他のものを拾ったんだろ？ (00:20:10)
ブラジルで起きたポルターガイスト事件について、プレイフェアが語った別の話があります。ある特定の人物、たいていは若い人物に事件が集中するんだ。 このケースでは、この若い女性の家で多くの荒々しい活動があった。 地元のスピリチュアリストの信者が、スピリチュアリズムはブラジルで生まれた宗教の一種ですが、彼女を自分の家に連れて行くことを志願しました。 (00:20:53)
そして実際に、この若い女性が彼の家に滞在している間、彼の家の屋根に当たった石の数を数えていた。正確な数は忘れましたが、この出来事の間に実際にこの家に落ちた石の数は300個ほどだったそうですね。だから、ポルターガイストも石を投げるんだ。ポルターガイストも石を投げます。 (00:21:28)そして、ポルターガイストを見た人は、「ビッグフットは幽霊だ」と言うのです。 (00:21:28)
そして、ポルターガイストは私たちが思っているようなものではないと言っているのです。これは幽霊でもビッグフットでもないものなんだ。そうですね。私がこの本で言っているのは、特に、荒野で不穏な動きを体験して何も見なかった人たちのことです。それはクラスBの出会いだ。 (00:21:56)
足音を聞いたり、石を投げつけられたり、木を叩く音を聞いたり、そういうことはあっても、実際にサスカッチを見ることはない。では、なぜ二足歩行の霊長類でなければならないのか？森の中にいるからだ。 森の中だから？そう、その通り。森にいるからサスカッチなんだ。あの人が家の中でビッグフットの姿を見たように、でもビッグフットじゃない。ビッグフットは彼の家にはいない。だから幽霊だ。 (00:22:22)
ビッグフットは外にいるんだろ？そうだ。でも、リンダ・ゴドフリーが嬉しそうに話していた、寝室に現れるというケースもあるんだ。そして、もしあなたが懸命に探せば、おそらくそのようなサスカッチの話を見つけることができると私は賭けます。 (00:22:54)
そんなことがあったという話はよく知らないが、一生懸命探せば見つかるに違いない。ああ、そうだね。それで、私たちが直面している問題は...。この本を読むと、サスカッチの研究をしている多くの人たちが、「サスカッチは幽霊じゃない。サスカッチが幽霊だとは言っていない。 (00:23:12)
サスカッチが本当に何でもあるとは言っていない。私は、森の中で起こっていることのいくつかに実際に関係している可能性のある、さまざまな存在や力について述べています。でも、サスカッチなんて存在しない、とは決して言わない。そうですね。二足歩行の霊長類がどこかにいないとも言わない。ただ、それが全てだとは思っていないんだ。 (00:23:43)
そういう人は少数派だと思う。というのも、類人猿は非常にとらえどころのない生き物だからです。それに、おそらく人がまったく住んでいない地域なのでしょう。そうだね。私はカナダに住んでいる。何十万平方マイルもの原生地域があるんだけど、滅多に人間の姿を見ることはないんだ。 (00:24:09)
二足歩行の大型霊長類の集団がそこらじゅうをさまよっている可能性は十分にある。それに、彼らにとっての食べ物はたくさんある。メガファウナもたくさんいる。 (00:24:14)
鹿やヘラジカやヘラジカや、そういうのがたくさんいる。生育期には果物やナッツ類、ベリー類とかね。可能だよ。 可能性はある。この現象は、文字通り至る所で見られるほど広まっているからね。 (00:24:37)
クイニー号や401号線でサスカッチを見たという人がいます。つまり、このような現象は文字通りどこにでもあるのだ。そして、これらの目撃情報、特に人々が体験しているこれらのクラスBの遭遇、そのうちのいくつかは非常に人口の多い地域であるが、それらがすべて、つまり、森の中を彷徨 っている大型霊長類だとは思わない。 (00:25:10)
その存在は、ティム・ブレナーも言っていることだと思いますが、マーベルのスーパーヒーローのような進化的な利点を備えていなければなりません。だから、森の中ではもっと不思議なことが起こっていると思うんだ。 (00:25:44)
もし誰かがサスカッチ・ジンを買ったら、僕は興奮するだろうね。つまり、最高にクールだと思うんだ。新種？すごい。うん。うん。 でも、それですべてが説明できるわけじゃない。 そうなんだ ええ、それでもまだ、これらの生き物について聞いた奇妙な話のいくつかは説明できません。 森の中で石を投げつけられたり、木をたたく音が聞こえたり、声が聞こえたり、足音が聞こえたり、これもポルターガイストの典型的な現象だ。 (00:26:14)
テントの周りから足音が聞こえるとか、そういうことだ。 そして、キャッチフレーズはいつも、2本足の生き物の鳴き声がどんなものか知っている。あれは二本足の生き物なんだ。まあ、そうだろうね。ただ、あなたが思っているような二本足の生き物ではなかったかもしれない。 では、ブラックストーン・ギャップの事件について話そう。
(00:26:37)
弓の猟師たちが一晩キャンプしていて、夕食を作っていたんだ。 ああ、そうそう。あれは投石事件だったよね？ ああ、そうだ。 ああ、もう一度見直してみる機会があったんだ。でも、これはとても典型的な例で、森に出かけてキャンプをしている人たちがいるんだ。 (00:27:01)
カナダにはたくさんのハンターがいます。荒野に出かけて、そこで時間を過ごす人たちがいる。彼らは弓狩りに出かけていた。確か、次の 日の朝、彼らはそうするつもりだった。 (00:27:19)
そう。計画が中断された以外はね。 最初は熊だと思ったんだ。それでショットガンを撃ったんだ。 それは、言おうと思ってたんだけど、空に向かって発砲したり、森に向かって発砲したりしたやつだね。そう。森の中で騒ぎを聞いたんだ。 (00:27:46)
彼らは、ああ、熊に違いないと思ったんですね。そういう田舎にいたからね。それで、彼らはそこに座っていたんだけど、その音がずっと聞こえてきて、一体何なんだ？実際に石を投げられたこともあったと思う。 サッカーボール大の大きな石が、彼らのキャンプに飛んできたんだ。 (00:28:03)
そう。それから木が... 森に向かって発砲した後に。 そうだ。それから木が揺れ始めたんだ。 揺れ始めた。そうだ それで サスクワッチ研究者は、これをみて、ああ、この地域にサスクワッチがいて、彼らはそれを聞いたんだ、と言うでしょう。 (00:28:26)
ドンドンと鳴きまくっていた。一方では、サスカッチは基本的に森の忍者だという報告もある。 そうなんです。でも、こういう経験もあるんだ。彼らがそこに座っていると、茂みの中でドタドタと音がするんだ。なるほど。なぜ忍者が音を立てているんだ？それがわからないんだ。 (00:28:52)
でもとにかく、この男たちのうちの一人が、この熊を、熊だと思っている熊を追い払おうと決心して、ショットガンを撃ったんだ。どこで撃ったのか、空中に撃ったのか、森の中に撃ったのか、よくわからない。わからない。しかし、彼がそうするとすぐに、私は基本的に腰を下ろし、サッカーボールほどの大きさの石が森から飛び出してきた。典型的 なサスクワッチ、つまりサスクワッチの研究者のような視点からこの事件を見ると、その地域にサスクワッチがいた。サスクワッチは石を投げて報復した、石をいくつか投げて報復した。もしその地域に巨大な二足歩行の霊長類がいたなら、そうなるのは目に見えている。 (00:30:12)
。でも、顕微鏡からレンズを外して、もっと高いところ、つまり1万フィートの高さまで視野を広げて、他の超常現象を見てみると、言ったように、投石はポルターガイスト活動の典型的な兆候であることがすぐにわかるんだ。そうです。ほとんどすべてのポルターガイスト事件で起こることだ。石でないなら、空中を飛んでいるもの、つまり、花瓶やその他の小物や小道具が空中を飛んでいるんだ。 (00:30:45)
私が見た古い事件の中に、家中の食器が全部割れてしまって、事件が終わるまでにバケツ3杯分の割れた食器があったという話がありました。典型的なポルターガイストの話だよ。ポルターガイストって何？という疑問が湧いてきて、そこから、私は本当にウサギの穴に入り込んでしまったんだ。また、ポルターガイストを見ていると、ほとんどの超常現象にはポルターガイストも関係している傾向があることに気づきます。 (00:31:34)
、ポルターガイストという騒がしい霊と人間との間には、私の考えではとても興味深い接点があります。私の考えでは、ニワトリと卵のどちらが先か？というのも、超心理学的な自然発生的PK（RSPK：Recurrent Spontaneous Psychokinetic Activity）という理論があるからです。理論的には、何らかの理由で感情や何かを表現できない人が家庭にいる。非常に心理的なものだ。 (00:32:09)
そして、自分自身を外に表現する代わりに、ある作家がサイキック癇癪（かんしゃく）と呼んだものを、基本的に投げてしまう。その結果、マクロなPK活動が起こるんだ。 (00:32:26)
ポルターガイスト事件の終盤に差し掛かるまでは、それは素晴らしいことだ。それは心霊現象ではなく、幻影です。私の理論のひとつは、少なくともこのようなケースのいくつかでは、自分の周囲でこのようなサイコキネティックな活動が自然発生的に始まり、他の存在を引き寄せてパーティに参加させるというものです。 (00:33:11)
そして気がつくと、幻影が現れたり、その他いろいろな楽しいことが起こっている。でも、超常現象の多くにはポルターガイストの活動が組み込まれているという考えについて話していますね。それは幽霊の出没で起こる典型的なことですよね？(00:33:41)あなたは、超常現象の多くにポルターガイストの活動が組み込まれているという考えを持っています。 (00:33:41)
電磁波の揺らぎとか、人が物を見たりとか、そういうこと。でも、ある時点で、場合によっては、人が押されたり、物が動いたりするような現象が起こるんだ。心霊番組を何回見たことがある？カメラをセットして、部屋の中の何かが動いて、みんなが興奮する。 勝手にね。椅子が動いたり、ろうそくがテーブルの上を動いたり、そんな感じ。 (00:34:05)
それは心霊現象だ。ポルターガイストの活動だ。古典的なポルターガイストの活動だ。 でも、基本的には別の環境での話です。そうですね。だから、みんなが話しているのは、幽霊のことなんだ。たぶんね 人間の死者が何をしでかすかわからない。そうだな 言い伝えに注意 を払えば、人間の死者はいろんな面白いことができるんだ。 (00:34:38)
そうだね。でも、それは1つに過ぎない。そしてこれもまた、この本全体を通して私が言いたいことだ。それは、非常に多面的な現象に対するひとつの説明にすぎず、さまざまなものを包括することができる。エネルギーは私たちから来るだけでなく、他の意識も存在するのかもしれない。でもそれは、私たちの期待に基づいて現れるんだ。 (00:35:08)
特に一度きりのモンスターとの遭遇のように。私はいつも、人々は脳が処理できない何かに遭遇しているように感じている。とてもユニークなんだ。 そうだね。私たちの脳の中にある名簿は、どうなっているんだろう。怖いよ。それが何なのか分からない。 だから怖いんだ。何が怖いんだ？怪物は怖いね。怪物を見てるんだから。 ほら。 (00:35:34)
このモンスターを見ましょう。(00:35:34)この怪物を見てみよう。ちょっと「森のポルターガイスト」からは外れるけど、「カナダの怪物と謎」の中の「湖の怪物」のコーナーに、ブリティッシュ・コロンビアの湖で怪物に遭遇した若いカップルの話があるんだ。どの湖だったか忘れた。 (00:35:51)
ブラックラグーンのクリーチャーみたいだった。そうだね。そうだ。この生き物を見たのは、この2人だけなんだ。 (00:36:02)
そう、オハイオの町にいたカエル男みたいな奴？そうだ ああ、たまにどこかで、一度きりの奇妙なことが起こるんだ。 モンスターが登場するとき、そのモンスターのアーキタイプを一人の人間に当てはめてしまうことがある。そして、他の誰かがこのちょっとした奇妙なことに遭遇すると、これはモンスタ ーに違いないとか、そんな風に思うんだ。 (00:36:31)
そう。そう。そうだ。これが噂の怪物に違いない キールのモスマンの予言のように、UFOを体験した人たちの周りでポルターガイストのような現象が起こっていた。 そうだね。臨死体験をした人たちにも同じようなことが起こる。そう、その通り。 (00:36:56)
その通り。だから、ポルターガイスト活動は、これらすべてを結びつけるもののひとつなんだ。でも、本当のところは理解できていないんです。とても不可解なことなんだ。森の中でポルターガイストに遭遇すると、人々の脳はサスカッチに違いないと混乱してしまうんだ。ああ、そうだ。 (00:37:27)
家の中でポルターガイストに遭遇したら、それは幽霊に違いない。そうだ。ポルターガイスト体験をして、空に明るい光が見えたら、それはUFOに違いないでしょう？うん。などなど。この本は特にポルターガイストとサスカッチの接点に焦点を当てている。でも、ポルターガイストとUFO、あるいはその他の興味深い現象について、簡単に本が書けると思いますよ。 (00:37:58)
『イルミネーションズ』もそんな感じだよ。 そうだね。つまり、彼は、これらの大量のUFO現象は、例えば、町などでPKエネルギーが蓄積されることによって引き起こされ、それが大規模な目撃につながると言っているんだ。 つまり、PKエネルギーかもしれないし、バイオ、バイオ電気、地球の磁気とか、そういうものが特定の場所に蓄積されるのかもしれない。 (00:38:38)
この本についてはちょっと触れないことにする。でも、ストーンヘンジにしろ、ワイオミングのメディスン・ホイールにしろ、人々が巨大なスト ーン・サークルを作った場所がありますよね。 (00:39:00)
こういったものの多くには、エネルギーラインがつながっているという説がありますよね。だから、いくつかの線の結節点に位置する町では、奇妙な体験をすることになるんだ。ミステリーズ・イン・ザ・ミスト』で、モスマンの予言で起こった出来事について話したとき、私はそのような説を提唱しました。 (00:39:35)
つまり、可能性はあるんだ。そうなんです、私たちは多くを知らないんです。でも、それがこういうことをやる面白さなんだ。そうだね。この本で本当に伝えたかったことの1つでもあるんだ。サイロから抜け出して、他の奇妙な出来事を見てみようということなんだ。 (00:39:54)
世の中には奇妙なことがたくさんある。その、謎だらけなんだ。このような分野に携わるのであれば、私の意見ですが、とにかく、謎に対する高い耐性が必要です。 (00:40:19)
私たちは顔が真っ青になるまで理論化することができる。いくつかは正しいかもしれないし、いくつかはただの気体かもしれない。そうですね。特に沼地のガスだ そう、沼地のガスだ。ウィル・オ・ザ・ウィスプだ 何て言うんだっけ？狐火だ そうだ。二足歩行の霊長類が森の中を彷徨っているという謎がある。その謎は、二足歩行の霊長類と何らかの接点があるのだろうか？ (00:41:00)
このすべてがどのように連動しているのでしょうか？(00:41:00)そのため、私は多くの時間を費やして、私が提唱している理論のいくつかを説明するために、いくつかの架空の出会いのようなものを書きました。 (00:41:26)
それを一冊の本にまとめることはできない。つまり、もっ ともらしいことは言えないんだ。でも、それは私がやろうとしていることでもあるんだ。あなたがウサギの穴について話していたのと同じような問題を抱えているんだ。 (00:41:48)
だから、それを切り離して、1つのことを取り上げて、よし、次はこれだ、というように、1つのポイントに到達して、これらのことがどのように交差しているかわかるように、十分に説明しなければならない。ああ、その通りだ。そうそう、それが難しいところなんだ。 (00:42:13)
だから私は、穴から小さなメロンボールを切り出して、しばらくそのメロンボールに取り組んで、それを本に発展させるのが好きなんだ。そう、そう。 そうしないと、完全に圧倒されてしまうからね。ポルターガイストとは何か、ポルターガイストの可能性とは何かについて話し始めると、マイク・クリーブランドの理論、超常現象的なUFO体験やサスカッチ体験などをする人は、人によっては、実はシャーマンのイニシエーションを体験している可能性がある、という話をするんだ。そうですね。シャーマンを研究するとき、魔女を研究するとき、そしてそのようなカテゴリーに分類されがちな人たちを研究するとき、彼らが霊的な動物を伴っているという考え方があります。この本では、どの霊獣がファミリアなのかについて話しているんだ。 (00:43:33)
そこで、いい考えがある。森の中で人々が遭遇しているこれらの現れのいくつかが、彼らの馴染みが彼らと接触しようとしている最初の現われだとしたらどうだろう？ (00:43:46)
そして彼らの心が、その身近な存在を巨大な二足歩行の霊長類のように見せているとしたら。多くの人は、 「頭がおかしいんじゃないか」と言うだろう。というのも、人々は何千年もの間、文字通り何千年もの間、何らかの形で霊獣と関わる経験をしてきたからです。 (00:44:13)
歴史を通して。 21世紀の科学的唯物論者なんだから、そんなことは起こるはずがない。すべて幻覚なんだ。 そういう人は... これを君にあげよう。君の幻覚は本物だ。 そういうタイプの人は、もう何もかもわかったような気になるんだ。謎はない そうだ 人は幻覚を見たり、作り話をしたりして、それで解決するんだ。ハイになってるとか... そうだね。残念ながら、そんなに単純じゃないんだ。 (00:44:44)
僕の嫌いなことの一つなんだけど、よく言われることの一つなんだ。誰かが犬男を報告したり、サスカッチを報告したり、UFOか何かを見たりするようなものだ。懐疑的な人たちが最初に彼らに尋ねることのひとつは、どのくらい飲んだんだ？というようなことです。皆さんはどうかわかりませんが、私は若い頃、たくさんお酒を飲みましたが、サスカッチやUFOを見ていると思うほど飲んだことはありません。 (00:45:20)
短い間にお酒を飲んだら、体験の回数が減ったんだ。 そう、そうなんだ。中枢神経を抑制する作用があるんだ。 そうなんだ。脳波の活動を抑制するんだ。だから、酔っぱらっているときに経験することは、本当に... その通り。では、本の中からジェフ・メルドラムについて見てみましょう。ジェフ・メルドラムは生身のサスカッチの大推薦者の一人です。彼は... それには理由がある
(00:45:59)
そして、私は、私は、どうぞ。 彼は何？彼は動物学の学位を持っている。 動物学と人類学の博士号を持っている。つまり、二足歩行の霊長類が存在するという話を聞くなら、ジェフ・メルドラムが最適なんだ。 彼は文字通り、二足歩行運動に関する本を書いた人だ。 (00:46:27)
つまり、彼の博士論文とその後の研究は、文字通りそれに関するものだったのです。サスクワッチの伝説と科学の出会い」という彼の本は、サスクワッチの分野では古典のひとつです。 (00:46:54)
つまり、私はこの人をとても尊敬しています。彼は明らかにこのことについて多くの時間を費やしてきた。 (00:46:56)
そして彼は、これがデマでないことを証明できる。これには真皮の隆起があるんだ。誰かがデマを流したとは限らない。必ずしも生身の動物という意味ではなく、人を騙そうとする、ある種のトリックスターのようなものだ。 (00:47:17)
しかし、メルドラム博士によると、ビッグフットとの遭遇で最も一般的な4つの事柄がここにリストアップされている。そして、これらすべてが一致する。そうだ。石を投げる音、ラップ音は古典的なものです。 (00:47:40)
つまり、スピリチュアリズムの歴史について知っている人なら誰でも知っていることだけど、キツネに対する一番最初の顕現は、叩く音だったんだよね？木をたたく音だ。私はスイスのルースホルド事件について話していますが、そこで起こったポルターガイスト活動のひとつは、実際にドアをノックする音を聞いたというものでした。誰がいるのか見ようとドアを開けると、そこには何もいなかったのですが、ドアのすぐ外に木片が落ちていたのです。 (00:48:14)
つまり、この力が何であれ、ドアを叩くのに木片を使っていたわけだ。そう。木を叩く音はポルターガイストの仕業ですね。他の2つは？興奮しちゃって。石を投げたり、木を揺すったり、木を叩いたり、スカンクのような香りがしたり。そう。木が揺れるというのは、目撃報告やポルターガイストの事例がいくつもあるんだけど、例えば、黒い坊主の事件では、ポルターガイストが実際に娘の上に家具を積み上げたんだ。 (00:49:00)
つまり、これは非常に重いものを動かすことができる力なのです。だから私は、もしその力を木に作用させれば、何の苦労もなく木を揺り動かすことができる、あるいは木を持って行って、小さなねじれた紐のようなものに曲げることができる、と信じて問題ないんだ。 (00:49:17)
ポルターガイストは、サスカッチの言い伝えで報告されているような、クラスBの遭遇と同じようなことをすることができます。実際、私はいくつかの章で、サスカッチの調査から集めたものをリストアップして、ポルターガイストがどのようなことができるのか、どのようなことをしたのかについて話しました。 (00:49:50)
つまり、私はメルドラム博士を尊敬しています。彼の研究は、私がこれらの目撃情報や出来事の説明を完全にあきらめない理由のひとつだと思います。なぜなら、彼は本の中で、とてつもなく説得力のある説明をしているからです。 (00:50:19)
そして、彼は明らかに、これらの足跡について、とても扱いやすく、とても科学的な方法で語ることができる専門知識を持っています。しかし残念なことに、彼は、例えば先住民の信仰などには言及するものの、それらの信仰を飛び道具として使っている。つまり、原始人たちはこのような理論を持っていたけれど、私 たち優秀な科学者はこれが実際に起こっていることだと知っている、というようなことなんだ。そうだね。ちょっと恩着せがましいかな。 (00:50:53)
でも、つまり、これはとても典型的な思考なんだ。人類学ではよく見られることで、ああ、この原始人たちと彼らの考えを見よ、みたいな。人類学者も少しはそういう考え方から脱却しつつあるけど、学問の世界ではまだそういう考え方が多いんだ。 (00:51:09)
だから、メルドラム博士の存在は、私がそこに生身の生き物が存在することを完全にあきらめきれない理由のひとつなんだ。 でも、メルドラム博士には説明できないんだ。 みんなが興奮するような、すばらしいサスカッチの足跡が、トウモロコシ畑のど真ん中を歩いて消えていくなんてことが。 ああ、そうだ。左の足跡だけあって右の足跡がないなんてことも。 (00:51:36)
そう、真ん中に足跡が1つ付くんだ。つまり、追跡の知識があれば、そして、僕は追跡の専門家ではないけど、過去に捜索救助の仕事をしていた時に、人跡追跡の授業を受けたことがある。 (00:52:06)
そう。サスカッチの足跡を見ると、彼らはトラック・トラップの中にいて、川の岸に沿って歩いているんだ。 トラックトラップがあるとして、指紋が残るような表面があるとして、どうやって足跡をつけるんだ？
(00:52:34)
川を飛び越えたんだよ。わかった。信じたいように信じればいい。 ジョシュア・カトチンは、超常現象の匂いに関する本を一冊書きました。ああ、そうだね。ジョシュアは超常現象の匂いの専門家ですが、私が言いたいのは、あなたがポルターガイストについて話すとき、例えば、黒い僧 侶の場合、そのエネルギーがどんな気分だったかによって、匂いが変わる傾向があったということです。 (00:53:06)
時には甘く、コリン・ウィルソンはその匂いを魅惑的だと言っていたと思います。 サスカッチに出くわしたときに人々が話す匂いを、私はよく思い出した。 (00:53:50)
そうそう。そうだね。つまり、ポルターガイスト事件や、もっと広い意味での幽霊事件で、どれだけの幽霊事件を見たことがありますか？そう。祖母の香水の匂いがしたから。 あるいは、タバコの煙の匂いがしたから、ジョー叔父さんがそこにいるのがわかった。 (00:54:12)
こういったきっかけは、超常現象や幽霊事件、ポルターガイスト事件ではよくあることなんだ。きっと匂いも関係しているんでしょうね。ジョシュアはUFO事件と関連した匂いのいくつかを話していますね。そうだね。ジョシュアが好きな匂いって何？ブリムストーン そう。硫黄とブリムストンが一番多いね。硫黄は、ええ、とても一般的です。そうだね。悪臭でしょ？ (00:54:44)
ビッグフットのことを、腐った卵のような臭いがする、と表現する人を見たことがある。そうだね。(00:55:13)また、あなたは、この十字架、十字架、奇妙な現象が起こっているのに、人々は自分のサイロに吊るされ、そこから抜け出すことができないようです。 (00:55:13)
そして、特にサスカッチ研究者の問題のひとつは、他の研究者はみんなうわべだけで、実際は生きている生き物を追いかけていると思っていることだ。そうですね。だから、余計に信じようとしない。今は少し変わってきているようですが、まだ生身の研究者が非常に多く、自分たちの物質的なパラダイムから外れたものには目を向けようとしないんです。 (00:55:49)
、謎の霊長類がその辺をうろついている、というような小さなジャンプはできても、森の中で本当に奇妙なことが起こっている、というような大きなジャンプはできないんだと思う。ところで、あなたの本の「森のポルターガイスト」は「荒野のポルターガイスト」ではなく「森のポルターガイスト」ですが、ジョシュはそれを「荒野のポルターガイスト」と呼んでいました。 (00:56:08)
それで、これはいい名前だと思ったんだ。最初にこれを思いついたとき、たしかレッド・ピル・ジャンキーが言っていたんだけど、ローレン・コールマンが70年代か何かの著書の中でこのことに触れていたんだ。そして、彼はそれについてどこにも行かない。 (00:56:27)
それは知らなかった。ローレン・コールマンの作品は読んだことがないんだけど、彼はこのつながりを作った他の誰かだったんだね。 (00:56:37)
そう。そうだ。サスカッチの研究では よくあることなんだ。怪物みたいな人もいる。カナダの湖には謎の蛇が泳いでいるんだ。カナダのモンスターやミステリーについて、僕は湖のモンスターについて何章も何章も書いたんだ。国の端から端まであるんだ。 (00:57:05)
もし、これらの湖に実際に巨大な蛇がいたとしたら、そこに他の種類の動物がいるとは思えない。そうだね。そうだね。とてもいい指摘だ。とにかく よし。ちょっと休憩して、すぐ戻るよ。オーケー。ここでちょっと休憩。連絡先 www.wheredidtheroadgo.com. ここに全てがあります。 (00:57:35)
ソー シャルメディア、ディスコード、フェイスブック、以前はツイッターだったもの、そしてレディットへのリンクもあります。そう。そして、もちろんYouTubeも、すべてのEメールも、コンタクト・セクションにあります。wheredidtheroadgo.comの2つのストーリーで、リスナーのストーリーショーのためにストーリーを送ることもできる。メタルやパンク、その他ヘヴィでダークな音楽を扱う私の音楽番組も、thelastexit.orgでチェックできる。それでは。 (00:58:02)
今週のおすすめ。このポッドキャストを推薦したのは初めてだと思う。アパラチアの古い神々」。とてもダークな、うーん、フォークロアっぽいポッドキャストだった。フィクションなんだけど、信じられないほどよくできている。というわけで、今週のおすすめはこれ。アパラチアの古き神々。さて、番組に戻ろう。今回はトラヴィス・ワトソンが彼の著書「森のポルターガイスト」について語ります。 (00:58:29)
そして、あなたは、メルドラムのリストについて休憩前に話しましたが、サスクワッチ・カナダのものを基にリストを作りましたね。そして、まず最初に静寂から始まり、それは確かに頂点捕食者がその地域にいることを示すサインになり得る。 (00:58:51)
でも、ジェニー・ランドールの「オズ・ファクター」ともうまく一致する。そうそう。もし頂点捕食者、つまりサスカッチに間違いなく該当するような生き物がいる場合、私がこの生き物について学んだことを考えると、その地域の音は弱まり、その地域の生き物は基本的に隠れてしまいます。 (00:59:17)
でも、静寂について話し始めると、私が静寂と呼んでいるものは、正式な呼称 ではありません。私がそう呼ぶことにしたのは、それが、超常現象の分野全体にわたって、非常に多くの異なる事件の要因となっているからです。これは、ジェニー・ランドールが「オズ・ファクター」と名づけたものです。ジェニー・ランドールはイギリスのUFO研究家です。彼女は、ある工場で調査をしていました。そこでは、警備員が、非常に典型的な、ほら、光り輝く、構造化されたUFOを目撃したのです。 (01:00:12)
そして彼女は、彼のこの出来事の説明の中で、いくつかのことが、前兆のようなもの、あるいは彼に現れた現象に付随するもののように思われることに気づきました。そのひとつは、何かが起こりそうな予感です。
(01:00:37)
それから、時間の歪みもあって、長い時間が過ぎたと思ったら実は短かったとか、その逆もあります。 (01:00:44)
そう。そしてもちろん、一番大きな時間の歪みは、今で言う「ミッシング・タイム」です。 この場合、彼女は、UFOの目撃談によく見られる現象があることを発見したと話しています。それはまるで、突然、すべての音が消され、ほとんど完全に無音になる空間に足を踏み入れたような感じだった。 (01:01:19)
周りで何かが起こっていても、何が起こっているのかよく聞こえない。この静寂は、サスカッチの事件でもよく見られますが、森の中を歩いていて、見られているような気がして、突然、静寂が襲ってきます。そして、自分は普通の現実から一歩踏み出してしまったんだ、というような、はっきりとした感覚があるんだ。 (01:01:45)
そうだね。もしあなたがカルロス・カスタネダのファンなら、彼の本の中で、彼は、突然、非日常的な現実の状態に入った、みたいなことをしきりに言っていますよね。 そうだね。そしてそれは、人々が抱く感覚とよく似ているんだ。静寂が訪れ、自分がもうカンザスにいないような感覚に陥るんだ。 ランダルが指摘しているように、これはUFO事件でよく見られますが、超常現象の伝承を全体的に調査し始めると、サスカッチ事件でも見られるようになります。 (01:02:22)
犬男事件ではあまり気がつきませんでしたが、そういうこともあるのでしょう。 UFO事件や、その他、ポルターガイスト現象でも見られます。だから、その、その、別の、その、別のつながりがあるんです。 (01:02:50)
このようなクラスBの出会いがあります。ハイキングをしてたんだ。すべてが素晴らしかった。青い鳥が鳴いていた。でも突然、何もかもが静かになった。そう。これは通常、何かが起こる前兆なんだ。ポルターガイストのケースでも同じことが起こりますが、この種の祟りの被害者となった人たちは、実際に、監視されていると感じる経験をすることがあります。 (01:03:24)
大混乱に陥る前に、基本的に、音が小さくなったような感覚を覚える。家の中で何かが動き出したりするんです。でも、そのつながりを見るには、実際に十分な距離を置く必要があるんだ。 そうですね。オズ効果を経験したことはありますか？ そうだな。そうだな、どう説明するのが一番いいかな？ (01:03:53)
私は、えーと、えーと、魔法のような働きでそれを経験したことがあります。そうですか。基本的に、神聖な空間を作ると、その効果がその場所に降りてくるんです。他の人と一緒にワークをしていると、時々、すべてが本 当に静かになるんだ。神聖な空間から抜け出すまで、何も聞こえないんだ。 (01:04:32)
その神聖な空間を取り払うんだ。そのようなことを作り出すのは、意識の変容でもあることを示唆しています。 (01:04:41)
はい。脳波の状態と関係ないのかな？ そうだね。もし、脳波が突然、別の、別の意識レベルにシフトしたのでないなら、ほら、私たちは彷徨っているんだから、ほとんどの時間、みんなベータで、考えて、やって、こんなことをやっているんだ。 (01:05:01)
それに、たとえ座って、自分の好きなテレビ番組について空想していたとしても、脳の状態は変わるんだ。 そうそう。 森の中を歩いているとしよう。そして突然、「ああ、ここも静寂を見た場所だ」と思ったとする。 (01:05:26)
それについては後で話すよ。そして突然、ある種のエネルギッシュな領域に入り、脳波がシフトする。そうすると、突然心が消えて、静寂に包まれるんだ。ああ、待てよ、何か注意を払わなければならないことがある。 (01:05:48)
そうだ。そうだ。だから、つまり、それは完全に可能なんだ。沈黙を経験した他の時は、時々、思い出す前に話さなければならないことがあるんだ。 そうだね。アリゾナに10年以上住んでいて、そこでハイキングにかなりの時間を費やしたんだけど、スーパースティション山脈でハイキングをする機会があったんだ。そうだね。アパッチ族の言い伝えでは、そこはエナヒン族、彼らの雷神の故郷だった。 (01:06:24)
そして、スーパースティション山脈には、あまり行きたくないような場所もあります。私は普通のトレイルを歩いていました。実際にトレイルを歩いたんだ 。 藪漕ぎとかではなかったんだけど、トレイルから少し外れて、渓谷に迷い込んで、2歩くらいその渓谷に入ったら、突然、私の知覚では、暗くなって、周りが静寂に包まれた。そして、自分がそこに歓迎されていないということも、はっきりと経験したんだ。 (01:07:00)
さて、何人かのデファイとは違って、私はこう言った。 と言って、2歩後ろに下がり、振り返ってその場から立ち去った。 そして渓谷から出るとすぐに、すべてが元通りになった。 そう。だから、その、もし僕が、そのエリアに押し入ってたら、とても恐ろしい経験をしたんじゃないかと思うんだ。 (01:07:26)
たぶん、あるいは、もっと激しくなって、そのまま消えてしまったかもしれない。だって、私がそういうことをしたとき、そうなったんだもの。つまり、わからないんだ。 (01:07:35)
うん。このエネルギーは、私のエネルギーと調和していないから、ここは私にとってベストな場所ではないかもしれない。 だから、私が歓迎される別の場所に行くわ。 (01:07:58)
そうだね。ええ、でも、そうです。ちょっと思い出すのに時間がかかったけど。 でも、もしパトロンになったら、そのことについて話すかもしれません。あなたのリストには、草むらで動く音も含まれていますが、これは動物が発すると思われる音ですが、ポルターガイストが発する音でもあります。 (01:08:22)
ポルターガイストは壁の中で音を出したりします。壁の中で音を出すんだ。足音が聞こえる。階段を上り下りする音がする。ポルターガイストの典型的な 兆候の1つだ それを屋外に置き換えてみると、その力が森を彷徨っているときに何が起 こるかというと、二足歩行をするようになるんです。 (01:08:49)
枝が折れる。森の中に何かがいることを示すようなことが起こるんだ。 そうだ。二足歩行と思われる重い足音がする。ポルターガイストは間違いなく足音を立てる。 そうそう。そうだ。ポルターガイストの典型的な兆候です。 (01:09:12)
何度、幽霊が出るという話を聞いたことがある？その兆候の一つは、誰かが階段を上り下りすることだった。 超常現象の典型的なものだ。サスカッチ側の人間が超常現象を見たら、そう思うだろうね。 (01:09:34)
でも、もちろん、物理的な生き物でなければならない。そうだね。そうだね。そして最後に、もちろん、構造物や巣、アイテムや木のサスペンションです。 さて、これに関して興味深いのは、まず第一に、サスカッチがこれらを作っているのを実際に見た人はいないと思います。 (01:09:56)
第二に、私たちがある場所に行くと、人々が、ああ、これはサスカッチに違いないと言う理由の一つは、このようなことは、人々がこのような生き物を見たことがある地域で起こる傾向があるからです。そうですね。まあ、好きなように解釈してください。でも、ポルターガイストの言い伝えをひっくり返せば、環境を変化させることに興味がある存在ということになる。
(01:10:23)
では、家の中に木の構造物を作る代わりに、私は、あるポルターガイストの事例についてお話しします。
洋服屋さんの人形みたいなのがあって、服を着て、ストッキングを履いて、靴を履いて、手を組んで祈ってるんです。なるほど。いい例がありますね。 (01:10:58)
オリーブ・ヒルのポルターガイスト事件で、私が本の中で話しているのですが、ウィリアム・ロールは、心理学の大物の一人で、ロイド・アウエルバッハは、私が思い出そうとしていた人物です。なるほど。そうか あの、サイキックの癇癪持ちの。 (01:11:18)
そうです。ウィリアム・ロールはこのオリーブ・ヒルの事件を調査していて、彼はこの幽霊の焦点を、ええと、キッチンに追っていました。 (01:11:25)
そして、この若い男がキッチンの流しに近づいたとき、彼は手を洗っていたか、飲み物を取っていたか何かだったと思います。ロールは、ダイニングテーブルが基本的に浮遊し、反転して、ダイニングチェアの上に座るように慎重にセットするのを見た。そう。つまり、構造物を作っていたんだね？構造を作っていたんだ。 (01:11:47)
ポルターガイストにはよくそういう行動が見られますよね。彼らはいつも、環境を変えていて、時には物を壊している。ええ。それが彼らの好きなことのようだ。
(01:12:08)
ええ。興味深いことに、彼女は少しも怪我をしていなかったのですが、彼女が少しリラックスしてパニックをやめるまで、この家具を取り除くことができなかったのです。そして突然、家具を持ち上げることができた。ということは、彼女のエネルギーがこのポルターガイストと何か関係があると考えざるを得ない。 (01:12:30)
そうです。私が思うに、恐怖からこの現象に近づくと、そのエネルギーに恐怖を送り込むことになります。怖いものが返ってくる。文字通り、エネルギーを与えているんだ。そう、その通り ポルターガイストは、このエネルギーが何であれ、それを変化させ、それに合わせて環境を変えることに興味があるんだ。他の場所に物を移動させたり、時には、ただ単にその悪態をつくために何かをしたりするんだ。 (01:13:15)
ええと、確かエンフィールド事件だったと思います。ええと、引用しないでください。いや、ブラックモンク事件だったかな。冷蔵庫から卵が出てくるという問題があった。そう。卵が冷蔵庫から出てきて爆発したんだ。でも卵の臭いの代わりに、爆発して心地よい臭いの爆弾になったんだ。 (01:13:39)
その母親はこれにうんざりして、実際に冷蔵庫から卵を取り出して床に置き、卵の上に木箱を置いてその上に座った。 卵が現れたり吹っ飛んだりするのは、典型的な 「アポート 」と呼ばれる例で、物が現れたり消えたりするんだ。 (01:13:56)
これはポルターガイストが有名な現象で、クラスBの奇妙な現象にも当てはまります。投げられている石は、必ずしも森から拾って投げられているとは限りません。空から降ってくるだけかもしれない。 (01:14:19)
そうだ。ポルターガイストの事件では、石がない場合、ポルターガイストがどこかから石を拾ってきて、あなたの上に落とすんだ。 (01:14:25)
そう。そう。物を消したり。あるいは物を作る。「変だと気づいたのは 鍵をなくした時だった "という 事件を何件見た？そうだ そうだ 鍵がなくなるんだ で、2時間後にまた現れて、何の理由もなく......。 (01:14:55)
ポルターガイストの侵入の対象が、通常は人を襲わないのに、人を襲うことがある。 つまり、レゴを除けば、深刻な被害はなかった。あのレゴは別として... 深刻な被害はなかったが、 彼の注意を引いたのは確かだ。ええ。ウイリアム・ロールは 、ポルターガイストの事件で、誰かに、ああ、こういうのは人を殴ったりはしないんだ。 (01:15:21)
それで、ポルターガイストが何かを拾って、それで彼を殴った。それで彼は傷ついた。(01:15:21)それで、ポルターガイストが何かを拾って、それで彼を殴ったんです。 (01:15:38)
「黒僧侶事件 "はよく引き合いに出しますが、これはポルターガイスト事件の母体のようなものです。そうだね。エンフィールドの事件は、誰もが知っている。だから、あまり知られていない事件を取り上げようと思ったんだ。 (01:15:55)
でも、ブラック・モンクの事件では、いろいろなものが飛び交っていて、そのスピードも速かった。 だから、まるで盗聴されているようだった。 (01:16:12)
そう。ただ、スピードが速くて、触った後、基本的に落下するんだ。ビッグフットの投げる石で殴られる人はまずいません。サスカッチが投げた その通り。(01:16:43)その通り、サスカッチに石を投げられて、実際に殴られた人はいない。 (01:16:43)
そう。(01:16:00)ああ、確かにあったんだろうけど、頭から思い浮かばないんだ。これも似たようなものだ。そろそろ時間切れです。もう1つ、本で取り上げた事件を取り上げましょう。 ウェストコット通り37番地の事件です。 (01:17:03)
えーと。それはイギリスですね。1980年代後半で、住所はアンジェリアン・ウィンドウズ社の所在地です。そして、この建物で何か奇妙なことが起こっているという最初の兆候は、ビジネスミーティングの最中に起こった。8人以上の目撃者が、部屋の隅でカーペットが勝手に立ち上がっているのに気づいたが、自分が何を見たのか説明できなかった。 (01:17:26)
目撃者たちはその出来事を無視し、冗談にすることにした。この続きを覚えているか？ええ。そしてこれが、そうだ。というのも、ある晩、彼女の姉が彼女を迎えに来たんだけど、その姉が幽霊体験をしたんだ。 (01:17:50)
その人以外は、この事件に関わったほぼ全員が、ポルターガイストを苛立ちとしてとらえていました。そうですね。部屋の中でカーペットが舞い上がるのを見たとしても、「いや、そんなの見たことないよ。いいんだ。まあ、無視することにしよう。
(01:18:23)
この事件には、いくつかの異なる、発生したタイプの出来事があります。そのうちの大きなものの1つが、えー、近くでコーヒーショップを経営していた人が、この建物から音がするのを聞いたんです。で、彼はそこに駆け寄った。彼と事務所のマネージャーは2階に行った。ポルターガイストが重いものを動かすことができるもう一つの例です。 (01:18:49)
彼らは鍵のかかっている部屋に入ったのですが、その部屋は以前は鍵がかかっていなかったのです。何かがドアに鍵をかけ、タンスだったと思うのですが、部屋を横切って、実際に窓にぶつかって割れるほどの力で動かしたのです。この事件で印象的だったのは、このポルターガイストに対する人々の反応がいかに非定型的であったかということです。 (01:19:15)
つまり、基本的にオフィス・マネージャーは、よし、窓でも何でも修理しよう、という感じなんです。こんな怪奇現象が起きているのに、「まあ、いいや」みたいな。もう本当に腹が立つし、お金もかかる。でも、そのコーヒーショップを経営している人が、ハロウィーンの資金集めの ために、ラジオ局を呼んで、この場所で一晩過ごさせ、その間にイベント活動をさせれば、ハロウィーンのいいイベントになると考えたんだ。誰も怪我をしなかったんだけど、ラジオ局の人たちはマイクとかを全部部屋に設置して、後で戻ってきたら、機材がぐちゃぐちゃになってたんだよね？そう。ドーン、ドーン、ドーン、ドーン、ドーン、ドーン、ドーン、ドーン、ドーンって足音がして、ポルターガイストの典型的な現象に遭遇したんだ。 (01:20:10)
そう、つまり、それは本当に、ある期間、活発な事件だったのですが、それに対する人々の反応は、なぜかとても非典型的だったようです。多くのポルターガイスト事件に見られるような恐怖はなかった。考えてみてください。家の中を何かが歩き回っていて、物を投げつけたり、食器をつぶしたり、卵を投げつけたり、石を落としたりしていたら、多くの人が恐怖を感じるでしょう。 (01:20:38)
ええと、この作品では霊媒師が登場しました。霊媒師が来て、基本的に霊に立ち去るように言ったんだ。そして、事態は悪化していきました。これはポルターガイストの事件で起こる典型的なことです。これは、私が指摘するタイプの現象の1つで、人々が走り回り、悪魔だ、悪魔だ、神の力だ、聖水を投げるなど、くだらないことをするものです。ポルターガイストにそんなことをしたら、大変なことになるぞ。 (01:21:12)
私が見たすべての事件で、ポルターガイストを家から追い出そうとすると、活動が活発になりました。黒い僧侶のケースでは、実際に誰かがやってきて、霊を動かそうとしました。その結果、霊は非常に反キリスト教的な感情を持つ ようになり、壁にスプレーで逆さまの十字架を描くようなことを始めたのです。 (01:21:38)
そして、イースターの日曜日にね。Well, it was, it was, it was behaving to expectation. ええ、その通りです。その通り。それで、それで、それで、それで、宗教的な工芸品をひっくり返したりとか、そういうことで、また、期待通りに振る舞ってた。 (01:21:57)
私の本や、ゴーストハンターのような人、私に話しかけてくる人に、いつも言っていることがあります。(01:22:22)あなたは、自分が何を扱っているのかを知る必要がある。 (01:22:22)
例えば、何でもかんでも悪魔だと決めつけてはいけない。悪魔を追い出したり、追い払ったり、追い払ったりするために、他の種類の霊を怒らせるようなことをすることもあるからだ。 あるいは あなたをなだめようとする 悪魔になりたい？悪魔になれるよ。 (01:22:47)
どうぞ。そう、つまり、そういうこともある。ええ。でも、ポルターガイスト現象で面白いのは、これを追い払おうとすると、多くの場合、より強くなって戻ってくるんです。 実際、2、3日は治まるかもしれないけれど、力を蓄えているんだと思う。 (01:23:03)
そう。そして、それは復讐のように戻ってくる。 よし。もう時間がない。でも、みんなに伝えてね。この本は「フォレスト・ポルターガイスト」と呼ばれています。ええ、『フォレスト・ポルターガイスト』です。あなたはW.T.ワトソン名義で書いていますね。W.T.ワトソン名義で書いてる。ええ。本はアマゾンで買える。Kindleで。ペーパーバックもあります。Kindleアンリミテッドなら読めるよ。 (01:23:27)
いいね。ページもめくってもらえるし ね。でも、そうだね。でもね、この本は「森のポルターガイスト」と呼ばれているんだ。副題は「超常現象のB級遭遇」とかそんな感じかな。表紙がすごくかっこいいんだ。僕の『ミステリーズ・イン・ザ・ミスト』の表紙をモデルにしているんだ。だから、かなり満足しているよ。 ミステリーズ・イン・ザ・ミストと、他には？ (01:23:54)
あら。見てみよう。Phantom Black Dogs, Walkers in the Liminal Way』（幻の黒い犬、限界の道を歩く者たち）があるんだけど、これは幻の黒い犬の幻影について書かれたもので、イギリス全土、それから北米と南米に現れる様々な幻影について書かれたものなんだ。霧の中のミステリー」は、超常現象における霧、霧、雲に関する私の本で、UFOであれ、クリプトイドであれ、湖の怪物であれ、あなたが興味を持っているものすべてを味わうことができる。 (01:24:29)
Canadian Monsters and Mysteriesは、カナダに引っ越してきたばかりの頃、自分の新しい故郷ではどんな奇妙なことが起こるのだろうと思ったときに書いた本です。(01:24:51)そして、この本はカナダに引っ越してきたばかりの頃に書いた本だ。 (01:24:51)
その本には巨大ビーバーも出てくる。巨大ビーバーが出てくるから、この本を読んでみて。カナダで一番好きな話のひとつだよ。サスクワッチの中心地であるブリティッシュコロンビア州以外のカナダに伝わるサスクワッチ伝承を紹介した『サスクワッチ・カナダ』もあります。カナダの他の州でもサスカッチの目撃情報があるかどうか知りたかったのですが、実際にありました。かなりの数があります。 (01:25:17)
その中にはかなり奇妙なものもある。この本には「スト レンジャー・シングス」というセクションがあり、実際に奇妙な目撃談のいくつかが詳しく書かれている。そして今、一番新しいのが森のポルターガイスト。 (01:25:31)
そして、また来てもらうことにしよう。この本にはまだ話したいことが山ほどあるからね。では、ありがとう。 それじゃ。次回はスピリッツの話だね。 そうだね。
▼文字起こし 原文 展開
tonight I have returning Mr. Travis Watson. Hello, Travis. Yep, I'm back. I was looking back through my emails for all the times that I've corresponded back and forth with you, you know, getting ready to come on the show. It looks like I've been on like four or five times. (00:01:09)
Yep, yes you have. And we've done multiple parts for most of your books. I don't know how this one's going to go. We'll have to see. Yeah, I don't know. This one was pretty concise. It's like I was saying before we started the recording, this book is probably the most difficult one I've written. And not because I wasn't interested in the topic or anything like that, but because there were so many rabbit holes I wanted to go down. (00:01:46)
And, you know, as you know, having read all of my books at this point, my goal when I do one of these things is to write a fairly concise overview of the topic and then provide people with a bunch of bibliography stuff that if they're interested in certain things, they can go and look it up, right? They can go and do further research. (00:02:07)
That's kind of my goal. It was really, really hard with this book because when I got researching poltergeist, I mean, my goodness, you have, well, you have all of the years of psychical research, you know, from all the way back into the Victorian times, you know, plus the modern, the take of modern parapsychologists, you know, plus all of my, you know, my particular animistic leanings, which come oozing out all throughout this book, you know, and then you have Sasquatch research on top of all of that. (00:02:45)
Yeah. So it was, you know, it was very difficult for me to put this into a concise format. And, you know, sometimes I look at the book and I'm like, oh my God, I was too concise. I should have written more. And other times I'm like, ah, no, if I'd written any more, it would have turned into a, you know, two volume set. (00:03:11)
Yeah, it would be a Joshua Cutchin book. Well, I didn't want to say that, but yeah, it would have turned into, you know, it would have turned into a two volume set like, you know, Ecology of Souls or like, you know, in Tim's book about Sasquatch, you know, where the footprints end, you know, it would have turned into that. So, you know, I have you to thank for this. (00:03:39)
Well, you're welcome. (00:03:42)
For those who, yeah, you're welcome. For those of you who are listening who may not know, the impetus for this book, The Forest Poltergeist, actually came from Soraya, who made the comment on more than one occasion that if you took all the stuff that people are reporting out in the wilderness and you put it in a house, it'd be a poltergeist case. Yeah. And I heard him say this on, I heard him say this on Word of the Road go any number of times. (00:04:11)
I was like, you know, he's right. And I got thinking about, you know, well, how would I approach that? And the next thing you know, I'm writing a book about it, which happens to me all the time, but so, you know, this book was, it was a challenge because there is so much material that could have been included in it. (00:04:40)
And I hope that I've represented things, you know, in a way that'll pique people's interest and still, you know, provided them with the resources to go on and do further research if they're interested in a particular topic. It's also, yeah, it's also different from the standpoint that, you know, most of my other books have been, okay, we're going to talk about phantom black dogs. (00:05:02)
And here's a story about phantom black dogs. Here's a story about phantom black dogs. And here's a, yeah, or we're going to talk about, you know, monsters, mysteries in Canada, or we're going to talk about Sasquatch in Canada, or, you know, any of those kinds of things. There's lots and lots of cases to talk about. (00:05:19)
And I could have done, taken a similar approach with this book, but this one's more of a think piece. Because, you know, the topic is, you know, it lends itself to case work, certainly, but you have this situation where, as I said, again, if I'd gotten into all the cases that I could have quoted from, you know, for all of these different things, it would have been a two-volume set. (00:05:45)
It would have been, you know, hundreds of thousands of words long, because there's just so much material there. So the challenge really for this one was being concise and doing, trying to do the topics in service, while at the same time, you know, putting it into a book that's, you know, easily readable in, you know, a few sittings. So, yeah, it was quite the challenge. (00:06:15)
And for those of you who, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say, I think you did a good job with it, honestly. You kind of cover all the main points, you gave some great examples without it getting bogged down. Yeah. And that was my worry. You know, it's like, I know that I love the minutiae, you know, so I can sit down and read one of Joshua's books and go, oh, this is so cool. (00:06:38)
Yeah. But I know that there are a lot of people who are like, get to the point, you know, what's the point? Or you made your point 20 pages ago. Now, quit talking about this and talk about something else now. You know, so I try to be the guy who appeals to those readers. (00:06:56)
Just to back up for a minute, for those of you who wonder what the heck we're talking about, the name of the book is The Forest Poltergeist, which, again, is a nod to Soraya and Tim Renner and Joshua Cutchin and all the people who believe that, you know, there's something more to this whole Sasquatch thing than just, you know, a large bipedal primate wandering in the forests of North America and throughout the world. (00:07:23)
My particular interest in this book was what BFRO calls a class B encounter. In other words, people have an experience out in the forest, but they don't actually see anything. You know, they may hear branches snapping or bipedal footsteps. They may have stones thrown at them. They may come across strange, you know, structures made out of trees and those kinds of things. (00:07:55)
They have all of these things that Sasquatch researchers are saying, oh, well, if you see these things, there are Sasquatch in the area. (00:08:00)
And as Soraya's pointed out, if you take a lot of that stuff and you put it in somebody's house, you'd have a poltergeist case. And I got to thinking about that and I thought, well, I don't know a whole lot about poltergeists, so I'm going to find out something about poltergeists. And what I discovered during the course of this book is that there is a very distinct paranormal aspect to, or could be, a very distinct paranormal aspect to a lot of these class B encounters where people aren't seeing anything. (00:08:40)
I have said repeatedly on any number of occasions that I don't discount the idea that there could be an unknown critter wandering around out in the woods somewhere. But when you take the massive evidence that you have out there, you know, class B encounters to the classic class B encounters with the stones thrown and all that sort of thing, you take those and you look at the distribution of these things all throughout the United States and Canada, it's like there's just no way that a rare bipedal primate could be all of these different places doing all this stuff to all these different people. (00:09:17)
There's got to be something, to my mind anyway, there has to be something more going on than, you know, the world's hide-and-seek champion wandering around out in the woods. Excuse me. So that was kind of my jumping off point for the book. And for me, I think this idea occurred to me when I was reading Willette's book Illuminations, and I always forget his first name, where he was comparing mass UFO sightings to poltergeist events. And then something else, I came across something else and suddenly I went, wait a minute, this also works for Bigfoot, except not as mass events, but just as the wilderness sort of thing. (00:09:55)
And the more I looked into it, the more I'm like, yep, it's just that poltergeists mimic partially to your expectations. Because the biggest argument against it is, well, you know, we're hearing what sounds like an ape, for instance, whereas a poltergeist may make sounds like a ghost. It's like, yeah, because that's what you're expecting it to sound like. (00:10:16)
Yeah. But here's the fun thing about that, is if you start to do your research, really start to dig into poltergeist cases. And again, to back up for listeners who are maybe not familiar with the idea of the poltergeist, poltergeist is a German word that literally means noisy ghost. And it is a particular kind of, we'll call it a haunting for want of a better word. (00:10:40)
It's a particular type of haunting that is marked with very strong kinetic activity, you know, where there are things moving around and things manifesting, literally apporting into the house and all that sort of thing. So if you start to look at poltergeist cases, though, one of the things that you find is that the poltergeist, in its housebound version, is quite capable of making a number of different noises. (00:11:19)
Yeah. Now see, my problem is that I often get the Enfield case and the Black Monk case that I talk about in the book. Right. Confused. Yeah, that's understandable. (00:11:23)
Now, in one of those, and I think it was the Black Monk case, but don't quote me on that. They actually had, toward the end of the period that this poltergeist was in, you know, around the house, actually had sounds that were like barnyard animals. Yeah, I think that was the Monk case. (00:11:49)
In the house. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so we get that kind of thing. I talk about a case from the classic tarot book, Apparitions, where this fellow sees or heard, he didn't see anything, but he heard his front gate open. And then he heard footsteps on his footpath. And he's looking out the window. (00:12:15)
He doesn't see anything. But then he hears this god awful scream that, you know, like literally rocked him back on his on his heels. Interesting thing about that is that his wife was just down the room from him and didn't hear a thing. Yeah. But he hears this terrible, terrible scream. (00:12:36)
You know, we always hear, you know, Sasquatch out in the woods. You the Sasquatch sounds that people talk about all the time from other sounds is the volume of it, right? This guy says volume. He said he's saying that that this was really, really loud. And it was so loud that, you know, again, it kind of set it back on his heels. But nobody else heard it. (00:12:57)
As it turned out, this is being a classic ghost story. As it turned out, this fellow had had words with one of his tenants that afternoon. And apparently this this individual killed themselves that night. And then he had this apparition experience. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so he is very classic ghost story. (00:13:25)
But, you know, so, you know, even with the things that people point to that are like, that definitely proves that there's a Sasquatch. We find that there actually are, you know, cases in paranormal and particularly poltergeist lore that can mimic that. You know, you talk about the tracks. One of the one of the classic Fordian occurrences happened back in the 1800s, where there was something and nobody's ever figured out what it was, left a long series of tracks in the snow in the UK that everybody said, oh, it's the devil, because it was kind of a hoofed looking print. (00:14:10)
And the interesting thing about it was this thing would go along and it would come to a house and they'd find the tracks up on the roof and it would go straight across the roof and then back down. And it just kept going. That's one of my favorite. I love that story, you know, but it's a classic Fordian tale of tracks, something making tracks. (00:14:30)
There is a poltergeist case in the book. And again, I'm pretty sure this is the Black Monk case because there was a lot of water involved in that one. Toward the end of that particular series of events, the mom came downstairs and found that the carpet that was running down the hallway toward, I think, their front door was saturated with water for some reason. (00:14:59)
And this kind of thing had been happening throughout the entire case, right? There were puddles of water forming just from nowhere. They actually, at one point, called in the local water board to look at the piping in the house because they couldn't figure out where all the water was coming from. (00:15:16)
It just kept appearing, right? Well, in this case, the carpet was saturated. And as she stood there, she could see footprints forming in the squishy carpet, going down large, like human footprints forming in the carpet, going down towards the door, right? So, you know, even if we're talking about the real strong physical evidence that everybody's like, oh, well, you know, we found these tracks and look at this cast. And, you know, there are thermal ridges and all that fun stuff. (00:15:50)
There are cases throughout Foriana of forces that can't be seen, which were kind of lumping together as a poltergeist, making tracks. So, yeah, I mean, the more I dug into this, the more I came to realize that all of the stuff that we hear about in Sasquatch lore, you know, when you're talking about the stone throwing and, you know, all that kind of thing, all of this stuff is classic poltergeist stuff. (00:16:27)
And even the stuff that isn't, things like tree structures, when you have a force that's capable of, you know, flinging Legos across the room and lifting heavy furniture and doing all these kinds of things, there's no reason why a force like that couldn't actually decide it was going to twist tree branches together too. Well, you know, there's a story Tim Renner talked about, and I can't remember if it was on the public show or on the Patreon segment when I went down to Albatwitch, about someone who had reported a Bigfoot encounter. (00:17:00)
And he's talking to the guy, and he, of course, now asks people if anything else weird is going on. The guy's like, well, I got a ghost. And basically, the guy described a ghost that basically had the form of Bigfoot, but he never considered that possibly being connected because it appeared like a phantom. And Tim was just like, yeah, there's your Bigfoot, you know? (00:17:23)
Well, I mean, one of the points that I make throughout the book, and one of the points that we've talked about any number of times in the course of our conversations on where did the road go, you know, is siloing, the siloing effect that you see all throughout the paranormal. You know, Sasquatch researchers do Sasquatch. And, you know, ghost hunters hunt ghosts, and UFO researchers research UFOs, and, you know, everybody has their own little thing that they're doing. (00:17:55)
And it's, you have to, you know, one of the things that I say throughout the book is if I step out of the Sasquatch silo, then I see that X, you know? It is a Fortean phenomena. And so it's something that you have to look at from 10,000 feet sometime and say, wait a minute. Now, yeah, yeah, so we have these things happening in Sasquatch lore, okay? The classic thing in Sasquatch lore is stone throwing, right? We hear about this all the time, you know, people getting run out of their campsites by something, some mysterious force throwing rocks at them, right? We saw this in, I talk about the Sasquatch attacks episode of Monster Quest, right? Where at the end of the show, you know, they have something throwing rocks onto the roof, and they're all, Sasquatch, you know, they're all freaking out about it, right? Which I thought was kind of funny because you have these scientist guys who are like, we're here to prove that there's a Sasquatch. And as soon as something happens, they all freak out and hide inside the house. (00:19:03)
Yeah, that's about right. They have one poor scared cameraman standing on the front porch with a thermal camera trying to find something, which he can't. But they have stones clanking on the roof up there, right? So if you look at that, you know, and of course, so all of the Sasquatch people say, oh well, stone throwing is a definite sign that there are Sasquatch in the area. (00:19:26)
It's like, and then if you go to people who've done poltergeist research, you have somebody like Gileal Playfair, who's like, well, you know, so stone throwing is a classic sign of poltergeist activity. And if you follow those cases and look at them, you know, in the Enfield case, you know, they actually had a newspaper photographer who got a Lego in the head. (00:19:56)
You know, he stand in the wrong place at the wrong time, thing came zooming along. And when Playfair met him a week later, he still had a bruise from this thing, right? So whatever this force is, it's winging things. It didn't have stones available, so it picked up the other things that were available in the house, right? (00:20:10)
You know, there's another story from Playfair that he's talking about a poltergeist case that happened in Brazil, where a lot of times these poltergeist cases have a focus. There's a particular person, usually a young person, that the events seem to really revolve around. In this case, there's been a lot of wild activity in this young lady's home. The local Spiritist follower, Spiritism is a sort of a religion that originated in Brazil, volunteered to take her into his home, so basically so he could study her, right? (00:20:53)
And they actually kept count of the number of stones that hit the roof of his house while this young lady was staying with him. They had like, I forget the exact number, but it was 300-something stones that actually landed on this house during the course of this event, right? So, poltergeists throw stones too. They'd see that. I think part of the problem too is that people look at a poltergeist and they're basically saying, well, so you're saying Bigfoot's a ghost. (00:21:28)
And it's like, no, we're saying that poltergeist is not what we think it is. This is something not ghost, not Bigfoot, but it helps create the illusion of these things. Right. And the point that I make is that what I'm talking about in this book is specifically people who experience disturbances in the wilderness and don't see anything. That's a class B encounter. (00:21:56)
They might hear footsteps, they might have stones thrown at them, they might hear tree knocks, that kind of stuff, but they never actually see a Sasquatch. So why does it have to be a bipedal primate? Because you're in the woods. Because you're in the woods, right? Yeah, exactly. I'm in the woods, therefore Sasquatch. Just like that guy was seeing basically the Bigfoot form in his house, but they can't be Bigfoot. Bigfoot's not in his house. So it's a ghost. (00:22:22)
Bigfoot's outside, right? Yeah. And if you extrapolate from dog man lore, if you extrapolate from dog man lore, you see dog men outside, but then there's a subset of those cases that Linda Godfrey was happy to tell people about where the dang things appear in people's bedrooms. And I'll bet you that if you went hunting hard enough, you could probably find a Sasquatch story like that. (00:22:54)
I'm not familiar with one having happened, but I bet if you looked hard enough you could find one. Oh yeah, almost certainly. So the problem that we face in dealing with it... I know that this book's probably going to tick off a lot of people who do Sasquatch research, because they're like, Sasquatch is not a ghost. And I'm not saying Sasquatch is a ghost. (00:23:12)
I'm not saying that Sasquatch is really anything. I put out a number of different you know, beings and forces that could actually be responsible for some of the stuff that's happening out in the woods. But I don't ever say, you know, there's no such thing as Sasquatch. Right. Or, you know, there's not some bipedal primate out there somewhere. I just don't think that that's all there is. (00:23:43)
It's like all the people who are... I think those are the minority of the cases that would represent an actual ape, because it is a very elusive creature. And it's probably an area that are not populated at all. Yeah. You know, it's like my point has always been, you know, I live in Canada. We have hundreds of thousands of square miles of wilderness that very rarely see a human being. (00:24:09)
It's entirely possible we could have a population of large bipedal primates wandering around out there. And, you know, there's plenty of food for them. There's lots of megafauna. (00:24:14)
There's deer and elk and moose and all that kind of stuff. And all kinds of, you know, fruits and nuts and berries and all that sort of thing in the growing season. It's possible. It's entirely possible. But I don't think that's all there is, you know, because this phenomena has spread to such a point that it is literally everywhere. (00:24:37)
You know, you have people seeing Sasquatch, you know, on the Queenie, the 401, you know, as they're driving past St. Catharines, which is a town of 100,000 people down in a ditch. I mean, this phenomena is literally everywhere. And I don't think that all of those sightings and all of those, and particularly all of these class B encounters that people are experiencing, some of which are in very populated areas, I don't think those are all, you know, some large primate wandering around out in the woods. (00:25:10)
That being would have to be, and I think this is something that Tim Brenner says too, that being would have to be endowed with evolutionary advantages that might as well make it, you know, like a Marvel superhero, you know, to be able to avoid detection for as long as it has. So, you know, I think there's something a lot more mysterious going on out in the woods. (00:25:44)
I mean, yes, certainly, I mean, I would be stoked if somebody actually bought a Sasquatch gin. I mean, I think that was cool as heck. Brand new species? Wow. Yep. That's really neat. But it still wouldn't explain everything. It does. Yeah, it still doesn't explain some of the wacky stories we get about these creatures. And a lot of these experiences that people are having in the woods where they're having stones thrown at them, they're hearing tree knocks, they're hearing vocalizations, they're, you know, they're hearing, you know, footsteps, which is another classic poltergeist thing. (00:26:14)
They're hearing footsteps out, you know, around their tents and that kind of thing, you know. And, you know, the tagline is always, I know what a two-legged creature sounds like. And that was a two-legged creature. It's like, well, yeah, I'm sure it was. It just may not have been the two-legged creature you were thinking it was. Well, let's talk about the Blackstone Gap case. Do you remember this one from Alberta? (00:26:37)
Bow hunters were camped for the night and they were cooking dinner. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was a stone throwing case, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had a chance to go back and review a whole lot. But, you know, it's a very, you know, it's a very classic example where, you know, you have, you know, people who are going out in the woods, you know, and they're camping out. (00:27:01)
Lot of hunters in Canada. So very much the case that you have people that do go out in the wilderness and spend, you know, some time out there. You know, these guys were going out, they were going bow hunting. As I recall, they were going to do that like the next morning. (00:27:19)
Yeah. Except that, except they had their plans interrupted. Well, they thought it was a bear initially. So they fired a shotgun. That's, I was going to say, that's the one where they fired at, fired into the air or fired into the woods. Yeah. Okay. So, yeah, they heard disturbance in the woods. (00:27:46)
They thought, oh, must be a bear, right? Because they were up in that kind of country. So they were, you know, they were sitting there and they kept hearing this and they were like, okay, what the heck? I think they actually had some stones thrown at one point. There was a large stone, the size of a soccer ball came flying into their camp. (00:28:03)
Yeah. And then a tree started getting... After they fired into the woods. Yeah. And then a tree started to shake. Started shaking. Yes. So, yeah. So, you know, and if you look at this from a strictly Sasquatch perspective, you know, then your Sasquatch researcher is going to look at this and say, oh, well, you know, there was a Sasquatch in the area and they heard it. (00:28:26)
It was, you know, thumping around. One of the things that's always puzzled me is, you know, on the one hand, you have all these reports that say that the Sasquatch is basically the ninja of the forest. Yeah. You know, you don't hear him unless he wants you to, you know, but then you have these experiences like these guys, they're sitting there and they can hear this thing thumping around in the bush, right? Okay. Well, why is the ninja making noise? I don't understand that. (00:28:52)
But anyway, so one of these guys decides he's going to run this bear, what he thinks is a bear off, and he fires a shotgun. It doesn't really give us an idea where he fired the gun, maybe into the air or maybe into the woods. I don't know. But as soon as he does this, I basically sits back down and this stone the size of a soccer ball comes flying out of the and these guys decided that discretion was a better part of valor and they better get the heck out of there before one of them got beaten by something that they weren't going to recover from. And so if you look at this from the typically Sasquatch, you know, the Sasquatch researcher kind of modality, you know, there was a Sasquatch in the area, you know, the guy fired at it and it provoked the Sasquatch. The Sasquatch retaliated by throwing a stone, several stones, you know, and, you know, basically it was a territorial display and, you know, ran these guys off, right? Which, okay, you know, I mean, if there was giant bipedal primate in the area, I could see that happening. (00:30:12)
Sure. But if I take my lens off of microscope and I expand out into the, you know, the higher view, the 10,000 foot level, and I look at other paranormal phenomena, I quickly discover, as I said, that stone throwing is a classic sign of poltergeist activity, right? Yeah. Something that happens in almost all poltergeist cases. If it's not stones, then it's things flying through the air, you know, you know, vases and other doodads and knickknacks flying through the air. (00:30:45)
I've always remembered there was one of the cases, one of the older cases that I looked at, where they actually talk about how all the crockery in the house had been broken and they had like three buckets full of broken crockery by the time it was done. You know, it's just classic poltergeist stuff. You know, and then you come into the question of, okay, well, what's a poltergeist? And then it gets into, that's where I really got down the rabbit hole and was trying to, you know, trying not to turn this book into a devolving set. Also, when you look at poltergeist, you realize that most paranormal phenomena tend to also involve poltergeists, which leads me to say this stuff has more to do with us than it does like singularly. (00:31:34)
Yeah, so you have, there is a very interesting, to my mind, interface between the poltergeist, this noisy spirit, and human beings. And in my mind, it's kind of a, which came first, the chicken or the egg? You know, because we have these parapsychological theories of spontaneous PK, RSPK, which is recurrent spontaneous psychokinetic activity. The theory is that there is a person in the home who, for whatever reason, is unable to express their emotions or whatever. You know, it's kind of a very psychological sort of thing. (00:32:09)
And so instead of expressing their themselves outwardly, they throw what one of the writers called a psychic temper tantrum, basically. Which, you know, results in this macro PK activity. (00:32:26)
And that's great, you know, until you start to get to the end stages of a poltergeist case, where really weird crap starts to happen, like the Black Monk case, where people were seeing this hooded figure walking around out there. That's not a psychokinetic activity, that's an apparition. And one of my theories is that perhaps, in some of these cases at least, you have a focus who starts to have this sort of spontaneous outbreak of psychokinetic activity around them, but then attracts in other beings that decide to come and join the party. (00:33:11)
And the next thing you know, you've got apparitions and you've got all kinds of other fun things happening. But you're talking about this idea that a lot of paranormal phenomena has poltergeist activity wired into it. It's a classic thing that happens in hauntings, right? It's like most hauntings are like, oh, you know, there's spooky things and cold spots and all that kind of fun stuff that happens in your ghost shows. (00:33:41)
You know, your fluctuations in electromagnetic activity and people seeing things and that kind of stuff. But at some point, in some cases, you get activity like people getting pushed, or things moving. How many ghost shows have you watched where they've got a camera set up and everybody gets all excited because something in the room moves, right? By itself. Chair moves out, you know, candle moves across the table or something like that. (00:34:05)
That's psychokinetic activity. That is poltergeist activity. Classic poltergeist activity. But in another milieu, basically. Right. So that, you know, everybody's talking about, whoa, it's the ghosts, you know. Well, maybe. You know, we don't know what the human dead are capable of. Right. You know, if we pay attention to the lore, then the human dead are capable of doing all kinds of interesting things. (00:34:38)
Right. But that's just one. And this, again, is my point throughout the whole book. That's just one explanation for a very multifaceted phenomena that can encompass a lot of different things. I suspect the energy not only comes from us, but there may be other consciousnesses out there, like wandering bits of consciousness that when we come in contact with them, like in the woods, they can sort of, you know, make themselves appear to us. But they're going to appear based on our expectations. (00:35:08)
Like, especially when you get like one-off monster encounters. I've always felt like people are encountering something their brains have no way to process. Like, it's so unique. Yeah. The Rolodex in our brain goes, I don't know. It's scary. I don't know what it is. So that makes it scary. What's scary? Well, a monster's scary. You're looking at a monster. Here we go. (00:35:34)
Let's look at this monster. Yeah. You know, and this is, I'm going to go outside of the Forest Poltergeist for a minute, but in Monsters and Mysteries in Canada, there's a story of, in my kind of lake monster section, there's a story of a couple of young fellas who encountered a creature in one of the lakes in British Columbia. I forget which one it was. (00:35:51)
That looked like the creature from the Black Lagoon. Right. Yeah. So, and you know, they're the only two people that ever saw this thing. (00:36:02)
Yeah. It's like, what is the frog man guy in the town in Ohio? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, every once in a while you get this just one-off weirdness that happens somewhere. And I think sometimes, sometimes when you get a monster flap, you're having one person put the monster archetype on it. And then when someone else encounters this, this bit of, you know, weirdness, they're just like, this must be the monster or whatever. (00:36:31)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This must be the monster I heard about. Yeah. I mean, you know, when you look at things like Kiel's Mothman prophecies, you had all kinds of poltergeist activity happening around people who were having UFO experiences, you know, it's like, oh wait, oh wait, no, no UFOs must be the aliens. Right. And the same thing happens with people who have near death experiences. Yes, exactly. (00:36:56)
Exactly. So poltergeist activity is one of those things that ties all this stuff together, but we don't really understand it. Yeah. And so it's, it's very, you know, it's very puzzling to people. And, and I think that what happens is that, you know, if you have a poltergeist encounter in the woods, you know, it gets siloed, you know, people's brains flip to must be Sasquatch, right? Oh, absolutely. (00:37:27)
If you have a poltergeist experience in the house, then it must be ghosts. Yep. If you have a poltergeist experience and there's a bright light in the sky, it must be UFO, right? Yep. And on and on and on. You know, now this book specifically focuses on the interface between poltergeist and Sasquatch. But, you know, I'm sure that you could write very easily a book about poltergeist and UFOs or, you know, any of these other kind of interesting, you know, Fortean phenomena that happened. (00:37:58)
That's sort of where Illuminations goes, you know, except he's looking at mass UFO events. Right. So he's saying, you know, he's saying these mass UFO events are being caused by a buildup of PK energy in like, say, a town or whatever that then leads to massive sightings, which is a different way of looking at it, but it's also quite plausible. Yeah, I mean, it could be PK energy, it could be, you know, just bio, you know, bioelectricity, you know, the earth magnetism or whatever that builds up in a particular place. (00:38:38)
You know, I think that there are, you know, and I'm going to go off the reservation here and not talk about the book for a minute. But, you know, you've got all of these sites where people have made giant stone circles, you know, whether you're talking about Stonehenge, or you're talking about some of the medicine wheels up in Wyoming and places like that. (00:39:00)
You know, there is a theory that there are energy lines that connect a lot of this stuff together, right? And, you know, so you may have a town that's sitting on a nexus of one of the several of these lines that, you know, ends up having these bizarre experiences. I proposed a theory like that when I did Mysteries in the Mist, talking about the events that happened in the Mothman prophecies, you know, with all the different things that happened in this town. (00:39:35)
You know, I mean, it's possible, you know, we don't know for sure. That's it, we don't know a lot. But that's the fun part about doing this stuff. Yeah. And it's one of the things that I really wanted to get across in this book. It's like, get out of the silo and go look at other weird crap that happens. (00:39:54)
You know, it's like there's so much bizarre stuff that happens out there. You know, that, you know, just you have all of these mysteries out there. You know, if you're going to be involved in a field like this, then you've got to have, in my opinion, anyway, a high tolerance for mystery, because you're never going to get an answer to this stuff. (00:40:19)
You know, we can theorize until we're blue in the face, you know, and some of our theories may be correct. You know, some of them may just be gas. Right. Swamp gas, in particular. Yeah, swamp gas, exactly. It's a will-o'-the-wisp. It's a, what do they call it? A foxfire. Yes. So I wanted people to look at this stuff and say, yeah, okay, so there's this mystery of bipedal primates wandering around in the woods, but there's all of this other mystery that's happening out there too. And does this mystery have some interfaces with our bipedal primate? (00:41:00)
How does this all work together? You know, so I spent a lot of time just kind of, I wrote several just sort of fictional encounters, you know, by way of explanation of some of the theories that I was putting forward, because, you know, I mean, there's so many ways that we can, there's so many theories that we can have around these phenomena. (00:41:26)
There's really no way that you can put them all down in one book. I mean, it's just not plausible. No. Although that is kind of what I'm trying to do. Okay. I'm working on a book of alternate theories, but I mean, I'm having a lot of the same problem you were describing with the rabbit hole, you know, like trying to make it presentable as how this stuff is both connected, but there's a lot of different things going on at the same time. (00:41:48)
And so you have to kind of separate it out, take one thing and then like, okay, now here's the next thing, and then explain it well enough that you can get to a point and be like, do you see how all these things intersect? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, and that's the hard part is getting people to see how it all intersects. (00:42:13)
This is why I like to, you know, like carve a little melon ball out of the hole and work on the melon ball for a while and develop that into a book, because otherwise you just get completely overwhelmed. Yeah, yeah. And you know, because there's just so much stuff out there. And then if you start to throw in, you know, I talk about in the kind of explanations area, when I start talking about what poltergeists are or what poltergeists could be, you know, I go down a rabbit hole where I talk about, you know, Mike Cleveland's theory that people who have, you know, these paranormal UFO experiences or Sasquatch experience or whatever, may be actually experiencing a shamanic initiation in some cases, depending on the person, right? Right. And then I went really down the rabbit hole and I thought, well, you know, one of the things that we find when we study shaman, when we study witches and, you know, people that tend to fall in that kind of category, we find a continuing idea of them being accompanied by a spirit animal, which is called familiars, right? And I talk about which is familiars in the book, you know, which is probably not going to earn me any points with some people, but okay, whatever. (00:43:33)
So, you know, so here's an idea. What if some of these manifestations that people are encountering out in the woods are the first manifestations of their familiar trying to get in touch with them? (00:43:46)
And what if their mind actually makes that familiar look like a giant bipedal primate because they don't know how to process it? Yeah. I mean, you know, a lot of people would say, you're nuts, right? I would say keep an open mind because people have been having this experience of working with spirit animals in some way, shape, or form for millennia, literally millennia. (00:44:13)
Throughout history. So why would you just discount it out of hand because, oh, well, you know, you're a 21st century scientific materialist and that kind of stuff just doesn't happen. It's all hallucinations. Well, those type of people... I got this for you, buddy. Your hallucinations are real. Well, those type of people feel like we've already figured everything out. There's no mystery. Yeah. People are just hallucinating or making it up and that solves it, you know, like it's like... Or they're high or... Right. Unfortunately, it's not that simple. (00:44:44)
It's one of my pet peeves about, you know, one of the things that people say almost, you hear it a lot. It's like somebody reports a dog man or they report a Sasquatch or they see a UFO or something. One of the first things skeptics ask them is, so how much did you have to drink, man? It's like, I don't know about you, but I, you know, in my younger days, I consumed a lot of alcohol and I never, ever drank so much that I thought I was looking at a Sasquatch or a UFO or anything like that. (00:45:20)
The short time in which I did drink, I found that my number of experiences went down. Yeah, yeah. It's a central nervous system depressant. Yeah. You know, so in my mind, it depresses all brainwave activity. So if you're having an experience when you're drunk, you must really be having... Exactly. So let's look at, from the book, you talk about Jeff Meldrum. Now, Jeff Meldrum is one of the big proponents of a flesh and blood Sasquatch. He's a... And for good reason. He, what is he? (00:45:59)
And I have, I have, go ahead. What is he? He's a, oh, he has degrees in zoology. He has a PhD in zoology and physical anthropology and all kinds of other fun stuff. I mean, you know, if you're going to listen to a guy talk about there being a physical bipedal primate, Jeff Meldrum is the guy to talk to. This is a guy who literally wrote the book on bipedal locomotion. (00:46:27)
I mean, he literally, that's what his doctoral dissertation and his subsequent work has been about. And his analysis of, you know, these track casts and big footprints, you know, I mean, I think he makes it in, you know, his book of, you know, Sasquatch legend meets science is one of the classics in the Sasquatch field. (00:46:54)
You know, I mean, I'm, I have great respect for this man. He's obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this. (00:46:56)
And just because he's, he can verify that, you know, this was not a hoax, which is great. You know, this thing has dermal ridges. This is not saying someone would put into a hoax. Doesn't mean it's necessarily a flesh and blood animal as much as something trying to trick people, sort of a trickster type of a thing. (00:47:17)
But you put a list in here of four of the most common things that happened during class people, bigfoot encounters, according to Dr. Meldrum, which is stone throwing, tree shaking, wood knocking, and a skunky scent. And all of these match up to these things. Yes. You know, you know, the stone throwing we've talked about, rapping sounds are a classic. (00:47:40)
You know, I mean, anybody who knows anything about the history of spiritualism knows that the very first manifestation to the foxes was a rapping noise, right? It's a knocking sound on wood. I talk about the loothold case in Switzerland, where one of the poltergeist activities that happened was that they actually heard something knocking on the door. And when they opened the door to see who was there, there was nothing there, but a piece of wood fell to the ground right outside the door. (00:48:14)
So whatever this force was, was using a piece of wood to rap on a door. Yeah. Okay. You know, so wood knocking, you know, again, definitely something a poltergeist could do. What were the other two? I get excited. It was stone throwing, tree shaking, wood knocking, and a skunky scent. Yeah. So tree shaking is just a, you know, I mean, we have any number of witness reports and poltergeist cases of poltergeist being able to, for instance, a black monk case, the poltergeist actually piled furniture on the daughter in that particular case, heavy furniture. (00:49:00)
You know, so this is a force that is capable of moving very heavy objects. So I'm not, you know, I don't have any problem believing that if you put that force out in the wood, it could shake trees without any difficulty whatsoever, or it could take them and bend them into little twisty ties and that kind of stuff. (00:49:17)
You know, so, you know, again, the poltergeist is very capable of doing just about anything that, it is capable of doing anything that's been reported of these class B encounters out in Sasquatch lore. I've actually gone through in some of the chapters and gone through a list of things that I've, you know, gathered from Sasquatch research and talked about how, you know, poltergeist can do these things, you know, or they have done these things. (00:49:50)
You know, it's just not, you know, I mean, again, I have great, great respect for Dr. Meldrum. And I think that, you know, his work is one of the reasons why I'm not completely, why I'm not willing to completely give up on a explanation for some of these sightings and events. Because he does it, he makes a tremendously compelling case in his book. (00:50:19)
And, you know, he obviously has the expertise to be able to talk about these footprints in a very manageable, in a very, you know, scientific way. Unfortunately, he doesn't, you know, while he does mention, you know, for instance, native beliefs and so forth, he uses those beliefs as a jumping off point. You know, it's like, oh, well, look, these primitive people, you know, had this theory, but we brilliant scientists know that this is actually what's going on. Yeah. Which is a little condescending in my view. (00:50:53)
But, you know, I mean, it's a very typical kind of thought. You see it all the time in anthropology, you know, oh, look at these primitive people and their ideas, you know. Anthropologists are starting to get away from that a little bit, but there's still, you know, a lot of that kind of thinking going on in academia. (00:51:09)
So, you know, again, Dr. Meldrum is one of the reasons why I'm not completely willing to give up on there being some kind of a flesh and blood creature out there. But again, Dr. Meldrum cannot explain how a set of these wonderful Sasquatch footprints that everybody's so excited about can walk out into the middle of a cornfield and disappear. Yeah, yeah. Or how you can get just a left footprint and no right footprint. (00:51:36)
Yeah, you get one footprint in the middle of, you know, I mean, if you know anything about tracking, and, you know, I'm not an expert tracker, but I have taken man tracking classes in the past when I was doing search and rescue stuff, you know, you get what you call track traps, you know, it's a material that provides a good base for footprints to be made. (00:52:06)
Yeah. And when you see these, you know, these Sasquatch track trails, they're in a track trap, you know, they're walking along the shore of a river, you know, where there's soft sand or something along that line, some kind of surface that's going to hold that print. So if you have a track trap, if you have this surface that's going to hold a print, then how do you get one footprint? Yeah, yeah. (00:52:34)
Holy, jumped over the river, you know? Okay. Whatever you want to believe. The last thing you talk about is the smells, and Joshua Cutchin did a whole book on paranormal smells. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, Joshua's the expert on paranormal smells, but all I will say is that, again, when you talk about your poltergeist, for instance, the black monk, the smell tended to vary depending on what kind of quote-unquote mood this energy was in, right? (00:53:06)
Sometimes the smell was almost sweet, and I think that Colin Wilson actually characterized it as seductive, whereas other times, you know, in other poltergeist cases, it was downright rank. And, you know, I was often reminded of the, you know, the smell that people talk about when they run into a Sasquatch sometimes, where, you know, they talk about how it smells like a wet puppy that's been, you know, outside for days and days or something like that, or, you know, it's been rolling in garbage or whatever. (00:53:50)
Right, right. Yeah. So, again, in poltergeist cases, and more broadly in haunting cases, you know, I mean, how many, how many, how many haunting cases have you seen where, you know, somebody was like, oh, well, I knew my grandfather was there because I could smell his pipe smoke. Yeah. Or I knew my grandmother was there because I could smell her perfume. Or I knew, you know, my uncle Joe was there because I could smell cigarette smoke. (00:54:12)
You know, these kinds of triggers, you know, are very common in paranormal cases, ghost cases, you know, poltergeist cases. I'm sure there are smells probably associated. Oh, well, I mean, Joshua talks about some of the smells are associated with UFO cases. Yep. You know, I mean, you know, what's the one, the one that he's real fond of? Brimstone. Yeah. Sulfur and brimstone is the most common across the board. Sulfur, yeah, is very, very common. Yeah. And that's a foul smell, right? (00:54:44)
And I've heard people, or I've seen people describing Bigfoot as having that sort of foul rotten egg smell to it. Yeah. So again, you know, you've got this cross, cross, you know, weird stuff phenomena going on, but people get hung into their silo and they just can't seem to get out of it, you know, and look at some of the other things that are going on. (00:55:13)
And part of the problem, particularly with Sasquatch researchers is, you know, they think everybody else is just woo, and they're actually chasing a live critter. Right. You know, so they're just even more, I think, unlikely to buy into. I mean, it's, that seems to be changing a little bit now, but it seems like there's still an awful lot of flesh and blood researchers and they're, they're just not willing to look at anything outside of their, you know, their material paradigm there. (00:55:49)
I think they've made the little jump into, oh, well, there's this mystery primate wandering around there, but they can't make the greater jump into, oh, there's some really weird crap going on out in the woods. Well, I was told after I presented the idea of the wilderness poltergeist that, and your book's forest poltergeist, by the way, not wilderness poltergeist, but Josh called it the wilderness poltergeist. (00:56:08)
And I went, yeah, that's a good name for it. So when I initially came, come up with this, I think it was a Red Pill Junkie said, actually, Loren Coleman mentions this in like one of his books in the seventies or something, that, hey, you know, if you, if this was happening at a house, it almost seemed like poltergeist activity. And then he never goes anywhere with it. (00:56:27)
Like, I didn't know that. I've never read any of Loren Coleman's stuff, but like, so he was someone else who made this connection, but because he was so siloed on the flesh and blood idea, he never looked more into it. (00:56:37)
Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, and, and, you know, that happens and it happens a lot in Sasquatch research, but you know, yeah. A lot of these people, like monsters too. I mean, people are like, yeah, there's, there's mysterious serpents swimming around in all the lakes in Canada. Apparently, I mean, you know, Canadian monsters and mysteries, I did, you know, chapters and chapters on lake monsters. Cause there's, they're, they're from one end of the country to the other. (00:57:05)
Um, you know, if all of these lakes actually had these giant serpents in them, I doubt that there'd be any other kind of, of fauna in there at all. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very good point. Anyway. All right. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay. Quick mid show break here. Um, contact info www.wheredidtheroadgo.com. That's where you'll find everything. (00:57:35)
All our links to all our social media, discord, Facebook, what used to be Twitter, uh, even Reddit. Yes. And, um, YouTube of course, and the, all the emails are there as well in the contact section. And you can, uh, send your stories for listener story shows in two stories at wheredidtheroadgo.com. You can also check out my music show, which is a metal and punk and other heavy and dark music at thelastexit.org. All right. (00:58:02)
Recommendation for this week. I don't think I've recommended this podcast before. I, I feel like I should have, uh, old gods of Appalachia. It was a very dark, um, folklore-ish sort of podcast. It's fiction and it's incredibly well done. So that is my recommendation for you this week. Old gods of Appalachia. All right, back to the show. So I'm here with Travis Watson talking about his book, the forest poltergeist. (00:58:29)
And, uh, you made a list based on, uh, you know, we talked about Meldrum's list before the break, but you made a list based on some of the stuff from Sasquatch Canada. And the first thing you start off with is the silence, which certainly can be the sign of, uh, an apex predator being in the area. (00:58:51)
But, uh, it also matches up very nicely with Jenny Randall's Oz Factor. Oh yeah. I mean, uh, you know, and again, I will stress, um, it's very much the case that if you have an apex predator, which Sasquatch would certainly qualify as, um, given what I've learned about these critters that, uh, you know, the sounds in the, uh, in the area will tend to, uh, to, to be dampened, you know, the critters in the area go into hiding basically. (00:59:17)
Um, but, uh, when we start talking about the silence, what I call the silence, um, that's not anybody's official designation. It's kind of what I decided to call it because it's, it's such a, um, it's such a factor in so many different cases, uh, across the paranormal field. Um, it wires into, um, something that Jenny Randall's dubbed the Oz Factor. Um, she was doing a, uh, Jenny Randall's a UFO researcher in Great Britain, um, UK. Um, she was doing an investigation, um, at a factory where a, uh, security guard had had a very classic, you know, brilliant lights, you know, structured craft UFO sighting. (01:00:12)
Um, and she noticed that, uh, in his description of this event, um, some things, uh, were, uh, seemed to be sort of precursors or things that went along with, uh, the phenomena appearing to him. Um, you know, one of those, those things is, is a feeling that something's going to happen. Um, and then there's, then there's the silence, which we'll talk about here in a minute. (01:00:37)
And then there's also time distortion, uh, where people will believe that a long period of time has passed and it was actually a short period or vice versa. (01:00:44)
Yeah. Um, and of course the, the biggest time distortion is what people call missing time now. Um, but in this case, she talks about how there is this phenomena that, that she discovered that was very common to UFO sightings, where people would talk about, uh, how everything just became quiet. And it was like, uh, they suddenly had stepped into a space where all the sound was muffled and it became almost completely silent. (01:01:19)
Even if there were things going on around them, uh, they couldn't really hear what was happening. This silence descends and you see this, uh, a lot in, in, uh, Sasquatch cases too, where the person's walking through the woods, they have a feeling they're being watched and then suddenly this silence descends on them. And, you know, there's a very definite feeling of, um, you know, I stepped out of, uh, you know, normal reality. (01:01:45)
Yeah. You know, if you're a Carlos Castaneda fan, one of, in his books, he's come, uh, you know, he's constantly saying things like, suddenly I entered a state of non-ordinary reality. Right. You know, um, and that's very much the sensation that people have. There's this silence that descends and they have this feeling that, you know, they're not in Kansas anymore, basically. Um, and you see this a lot in, uh, UFO cases as Randall's points out, but then if you start to do your research in, uh, in paranormal lore across the board, you see it in Sasquatch cases. (01:02:22)
Um, I haven't noticed it so much in dog man cases, but I'm sure that that happens as well. Um, you certainly see it in a lot of, again, UFO cases, um, and other, uh, you know, we see it too in, in, uh, in, in the poltergeist phenomena. So, you know, um, there's, there's that other, uh, there's another one of those connections. (01:02:50)
You know, you have these class B encounters where people are saying, you know, I was walking through the woods. I was taking a hike. Everything was great. The bluebirds were singing, blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden everything went dead quiet. Yeah. And this is usually a precursor to something more happening. Um, and then you have the same thing happening in poltergeist cases where sometimes, uh, the people who are for one of a better term victims of these kinds of hauntings, uh, actually have the experience of feeling watched. (01:03:24)
They'll have that feeling of muffled sound before all hell breaks loose, basically. Um, and things start moving around their house and so forth. Um, so again, you know, you see the connection there, but you have to actually back up enough to see the connection. Right. And, um, have you ever had the experience before of that Oz effect? Um, let me think. I have, um, in, um, well, let's see, what's the best way to explain this? (01:03:53)
I've had it in, um, uh, magical workings. Oh, okay. Okay. Basically where, um, I've created sacred space and, uh, that effect is sort of just descended on, on the area. Um, I've had people comment on it, um, when I've been doing work with other people that sometimes everything gets really quiet. Um, and you can't hear anything until after you, you break out of that, uh, break out of that sacred space. (01:04:32)
You take that sacred space down. Um, which, which suggests that it could also be an altering of consciousness that creates that, that sort of thing, which would also go along with being able to generate more energy for something to, to work with. (01:04:41)
Yes. Yeah. I have to wonder if it doesn't have something to do with your brainwave state. Yeah. You know, if it's not a sudden shift of your brainwaves into another, uh, another level of consciousness, you know, cause we wander around, we're all beta most of the time and we're thinking and we're doing it and we're doing all this stuff. (01:05:01)
And, you know, even if you sit down and, uh, you know, you're daydreaming about your favorite, um, TV show or something that alters your brain state. Right, right. Now let's suppose that you're walking along, you're out in the woods, la la la, the blue birds are singing and everything is happy and da da da da. And suddenly you enter, oh, this is another place where I've seen the silence. (01:05:26)
I'll talk about that in a minute. Um, and suddenly you enter, you know, an energetic area of some kind and your brainwaves shift, you know, say you drop into an alpha bordering on theta state. That would tend to put you into what I think of as the silence because your mind is suddenly gone. Oh, wait, there's something I need to pay attention to that is not external, it's internal. (01:05:48)
Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that's, that's entirely possible. The other time that I've experienced the silence, I, sometimes I have to talk about things before I remember. Sure. Yeah. Um, I, um, I lived in Arizona for over a decade and, uh, I spent a good bit of time hiking there and I had occasion to hike in the Superstition Mountains, which is one of those areas of high strangeness. Yeah. Um, in the, uh, in the Apache, uh, lore, it was the home of the, the Enahin, their, their thunder gods. (01:06:24)
Um, and there are places in the Superstition Mountains you probably just don't want to go. Um, I was out, um, walking one of the regular trails. I was actually on a trail. Um, so I wasn't like bushwhacking or anything, but, um, you know, I got off the beaten trail a little bit and I wandered into a canyon and I took about two steps into this canyon and suddenly it's, in my perception, it got darker and I had that experience of the silence around me. And I also had a very definite experience that I wasn't welcome there. (01:07:00)
Now, unlike some Defy, um, I said, okay, thank you very much for letting me know. And I took two steps backwards and I turned around and I walked away from that area. And as soon as I got out of the canyon, everything went back to normal. Yeah. So, you know, that's, uh, you know, if I had, you know, pushed my way into that area, I rather suspect that I would have had a very frightening experience. (01:07:26)
Maybe, or maybe it just would have gotten more intense and then just gone away. Cause that's, that's what's happened when I've done that stuff. I mean, it's hard to know. (01:07:35)
Yeah. But, uh, you know, I mean, I, I was like walking along and, you know, when, when I have an experience like that, I take it as a, as a sign to, to say, okay, well, maybe this is not the best place for me to be because this energy is not harmonic with my energy. So I'm going to go somewhere else where I'm welcome. (01:07:58)
Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I have had that experience. Um, you know, it just took me a minute to remember. Yeah. I've had it quite a bit, but I'll, maybe I'll talk about that if we do a Patreon, cause I'd like to get your thoughts on maybe some of that. Um, so in your list, that includes sounds of movement in the brush, which again is something you would expect an animal to, to make, but is totally something a poltergeist can do. (01:08:22)
Cause they'll make sounds like in the walls and stuff. They'll make sounds in the walls. You'll hear footsteps. You'll hear things clomping up and down the stairs. Um, you know, I mean, they're, it's one of the classic signs of poltergeist slash haunting activity. Um, you know, so if you take that, you translate it outdoors, what's going to happen when that forces is wandering around the woods, it's going to make bipedal footsteps. (01:08:49)
It's going to have branches breaking. You're going to have all this stuff going on that would indicate to you that there was something in the woods with you. Yeah. And then you have heavy, supposedly bipedal footsteps, which again, poltergeists definitely do footsteps. Oh yeah. Yeah. Just harking back to what I just said, it's just, it's just a classic sign of poltergeist activity. (01:09:12)
You know, how many times have you heard about, uh, you know, haunting where, you know, one of the signs was somebody clomping up and down the stairs. I mean, it's just, it's a classic, classic paranormal thing. And, you know, if people on that side, on the Sasquatch side of things were looking at, you know, these paranormal phenomena, they'd see that. (01:09:34)
But, um, you know, of course it has to be a physical creature because they're not ready for that yet, I guess. Right. Right. And then the last thing, of course, is structures and nests, as well as suspension of items and trees. Now, the, the interesting thing about this is, uh, you know, I don't think anybody's actually seen a Sasquatch making these things, first of all. (01:09:56)
Um, secondly, when we go to, you know, and one of the reasons that people say, oh, well, it must be Sasquatch is because these things tend happen in areas where people have seen these creatures. Right. You know, take that for what you want. Um, but if you flip over into your poltergeist lore, again, you have a being that is interested in altering its environment. (01:10:23)
Okay. So, um, instead of, uh, you know, making tree structures in a house, um, I re I re, uh, uh, I talk about one case, one poltergeist case where, um, the people would come home and they would find that this, this energy had, uh, set up these tableau, um, in the room. (01:10:42)
So they'd find, uh, you know, like a dressmaker's dummy and it'd have clothes on and have the stockings laid out and there'd be the shoes and, you know, it'd have its hands crossed in prayer because the guy that was being haunted was a reverend. Right. Um, so there's one good example. (01:10:58)
Um, in the, uh, the Olive Hill poltergeist case that I talk about in the book, um, William Rohl, who's one of the, you know, one of the, uh, the big shot pair of psychology people, uh, Lloyd Auerbach was the guy I was trying to remember. Okay. Okay. Um, who was the, the psychic temper tantrum. (01:11:18)
Yes. Um, so William Rohl was investigating this Olive Hill case and, um, he was following the focus of this particular haunting into, uh, the kitchen. (01:11:25)
And as this young man approached the kitchen sink, I think he was washing his hands or getting a drink or something. Rohl saw the dining room table basically levitate, flip itself up and then set itself carefully down so that it was sitting on top of the dining room chairs. Yeah. So again, it was making a structure, right? It was making a structure. (01:11:47)
Um, you know, you see that sort of behavior in poltergeists all the time. They're all, all the time, altering their environment, sometimes by destroying things. Yeah. Uh, which seems to be their, their favorite thing to do. But, uh, you know, the case of, of Diane, the young lady in the black monk case who is going up the stairs and a poltergeist is piling furniture on her. (01:12:08)
Yeah. Now, interestingly, she was not injured in the least, but they couldn't get this stuff off of her until she relaxed a little bit, stopped panicking. And then suddenly they were able to lift the furniture off of her. So you have to think that that, uh, that, that her energy had something to do with this poltergeist. (01:12:30)
Well, and that's, that's one of the things, you know, that's one of the things I suspect is that when you approach this stuff from a point of fear, you're, you're feeding fear into that energy and that's what you're getting. You're getting back something scary. Um, you're literally feeding the energy. Yeah, exactly. Um, and, but you know, my point though, is that in, in all of these different incidents, the poltergeist is interested that this energy, whatever it is, is interested in changing it and altering its environment to suit it. You know, it'll move things to other locations just because, and sometimes it does things just for the sheer cussedness of it. (01:13:15)
Uh, in the, in the, uh, I think it was the Enfield case. Um, don't quote me. Um, they had, no, it was the Black Monk case again. Um, they had a, a problem with the eggs coming out of the refrigerator. Yeah. The eggs coming out of the refrigerator and exploding basically. But instead of smelling like eggs, they exploded into these pleasant smelling bombs, basically. (01:13:39)
Um, the mom got so tired of this that she actually took the eggs out of the refrigerator, uh, put them on the floor, put a crate on top of the eggs and sat on it. And there were still eggs appearing and blowing up, uh, which is a classic example of what they call an apport, uh, where, uh, things appear and disappear. (01:13:56)
Um, and this is something that poltergeists are famous for and something that could account for some of the weirdness that goes on around some of these class B encounters too. Those stones that are being thrown may not necessarily be being picked up and thrown from the forest. They may just be appearing and dropping out of the sky. (01:14:19)
Yeah. Cause this again happens in poltergeist cases, um, where, you know, if there isn't a stone available, the poltergeist apparently grabs one from somewhere else and drops it on you. (01:14:25)
Yep. Yep. Or make stuff disappear. Or make stuff. Yeah. I mean, how many haunting cases have you seen where somebody said the first thing they realized that there was something weird going on is they kept losing their keys. Yeah. Yeah. Because the keys would disappear. And then, you know, two hours later they would reappear and for no apparent reason, you know, I have this happen to me all the time. (01:14:55)
You note that, uh, in instances where objects of poltergeist incursion do strike someone when they usually don't, uh, they don't seem to actually cause serious harm. I mean, aside from that Lego, which really wasn't serious harm. Aside from that one, yeah, it wasn't serious harm, but it certainly got his attention. Yeah. Um, and William Roll got, got, you know, attended to as well, uh, telling somebody at a poltergeist case that, oh, well, these things never hit people. (01:15:21)
And so, uh, the poltergeist picked something up and hit him with it. Now it did hurt him. Um, didn't, you know, didn't affect him at all, but yeah, given the velocity that these things are traveling at through the house, a lot of times you would think that people would be seriously injured. (01:15:38)
Um, but, uh, you know, again, black monk case, um, I quote that one a lot because it is, it's like the mother, it's like one of the mothers of all poltergeist cases. Yeah. That one in Enfield, everybody knows Enfield. So I thought I'd go with one that was a little less known. (01:15:55)
Um, but in the, in the, the, the black monk case, um, you know, there are any number of, of cases where, uh, you know, things were flying around and at rapid rates, but, uh, a couple of occasions that Diane, again, one of the focuses for this activity got hit. So it was just like being tapped. (01:16:12)
Yeah. Thing would just speed at them and then just, you know, basically drop after touching them. And, and that's, again, you don't see people getting hit by the rocks thrown by Bigfoot either. Thrown by Sasquatch. Exactly. You know, I can't think of, uh, I'm sure that somebody can make a liar of me on this one, but I can't think of a Sasquatch case where, uh, there was stone throwing involved where somebody's actually gotten hit. (01:16:43)
Yeah. Um, I'm sure it's happened, but, um, I can't think of one off the top of my head and I've read a lot of Bigfoot reports. Um, so again, that's another similarity. Um, we're, we're almost out of time. I wanted to let, let's cover one more case you bring up in the book. And this is the one at 37 Westcott street that happened. (01:17:03)
Uh, let's see. Uh, uh, that's in the UK. Yeah, it's in the UK and you, it's so in the late 1980s, the address is the site of the Angelian windows company. And the first sign of something strange happening in the building occurred during a business meeting where no less than eight witnesses noticed the carpet rise up on its own in the corner of the room, unable to explain what they had seen. (01:17:26)
The witnesses decided to ignore the event and make a joke of it. You remember the rest of this one? Yeah. And this, and this is what, yeah. And this is one of the cases that just cracked me up because, you know, other than one young lady who, um, uh, actually her sister came to pick her up one night and they had an apparition experience and she refused to come back to the, she quit that night and never came back. (01:17:50)
Other than that person, almost everybody involved in this case viewed the poltergeist as, as an irritation. Right. Yeah. It's like they would see carpet rise up in the room and they'd be like, nah, we didn't see that really. It's okay. Well, we'll just ignore it and hope it goes away. Um, that the, uh, the, the office manager in this, in this building thing got locked in the bathroom once, um, and was really more upset by the fact that the poltergeist was keeping her from work than she was by the fact that there was this weird thing around locking doors in there, in this room. (01:18:23)
Um, there's, uh, you know, so there are several different, uh, outbreak type of, uh, events in this, in this case. One of the, one of the big ones though, um, a, uh, a fellow who owned a coffee shop nearby, um, heard a crash come from this, this building. And he ran over there. Um, he and the office manager went upstairs. It's another example of a poltergeist being able to move a heavy object. (01:18:49)
Um, they went into a room that was locked that hadn't been locked before. So something had locked the door and then moved a, uh, uh, I believe it was a wardrobe, uh, across the room with enough force to where it actually hit and broke a window. Um, now again, the thing that strikes me about this case is how, how atypical people's responses were, were to this poltergeist. (01:19:15)
You know, I mean, basically the office manager's like, okay, we'll fix the window or whatever. It's like, you have this bizarre event happen and they're just like, okay, whatever. Um, this is really starting to piss me off and it's costing me money now. Uh, but, uh, so in this fellow who ran the coffee shop decided for whatever reason that it would be a great Halloween thing, Halloween fundraiser thing to actually have a radio station come in and spend the night in this location, uh, with subsequent event activity happening during that. Uh, you know, nobody got hurt, but you know, the, the radio people set up all of their microphones and stuff in a room and then they came back later and all their stuff was just discombobulated, right? Yeah. Um, and there were thumpings and bumpings and footsteps and all the kinds of fun, classic poltergeist things that you run into. (01:20:10)
Um, so that, uh, it really was, uh, you know, was an active case for, for a period of time, but for some reason people's response to it seemed to be very atypical. There wasn't the, the, the, the terror that you find in a lot of poltergeist case. I mean, yeah, think about it. I mean, if you had something wandering around your house, throwing things around and crushing your crockery and apporting your eggs and dropping stones on you and stuff, you know, that, that would probably be pretty fear inducing for a lot of people. (01:20:38)
Um, in this one, they had a medium pull out in this one. They had a medium come in and tell the spirit basically to leave. And then things got worse, which is traditionally what happens. This is a very typical thing to happen in poltergeist cases. This is one of those, the types of phenomena that I point to where, you know, you got all these people running around, it's demons, it's demons, you know, the power of God, you know, and casting holy water and all that crap, right? If you do that to a poltergeist, you're going to be in serious trouble. (01:21:12)
Um, in all of the cases that I saw, any attempt to throw the poltergeist out of the house resulted in increased activity. Um, in the black monk case, they actually had somebody come in and try to exercise the spirit. Um, and the only result of this was that the, the spirit developed a very anti-Christian sentiment and started doing things like spray painting upside down crosses on the wall. (01:21:38)
And, uh, you know, on Easter Sunday. Well, it was, it was, it was behaving to expectation. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um, so, you know, and, and, and, you know, turning, uh, religious artifacts upside down, all that sort of thing, you know, it was behaving again, according to an expectation. (01:21:57)
Um, you know, so I, I, one of the things that I tell people in my books and, you know, anybody that's, that's, you know, a ghost hunter type person that talks to me, you know, I'm always telling people, you need to know what you're dealing with. If you don't know what you're dealing with, you need to be very careful about what you do. (01:22:22)
You can't just assume that everything is a demon, for instance, because, you know, some of the steps that you might take to, you know, remove or, or, or banish a demon are things that are going to piss other kinds of spirits off. Or they're just, or they're just trying to appease you. They're like, Oh, you want to do demon? I can be a demon. (01:22:47)
Sure. Here you go. You know, I mean, that, that happens too. Yes. But I mean, one of the funny things to me about the poltergeist phenomena is that, you know, if you do, you know, try to get rid of this thing, a lot of times it will come back that much stronger. It might actually go away for a couple of days, but I think it's kind of gathering strength. (01:23:03)
Yeah. And then it comes back with a vengeance. All right. We're, we're out of time. But tell people, okay. So the book is called Forest Poltergeist. Yeah. It's called the Forest Poltergeist. And you write under W.T. Watson. And I write under W.T. Watson. Yeah. The book's available on Amazon. It's on Kindle. It's on, it's available as a paperback. If you have Kindle Unlimited, you can read the book. (01:23:27)
Nice. And you know, I get page turns for that too. I appreciate anything that people do. But yeah, it's called the Forest Poltergeist. I think it's, the subtitle is Class B Encounters in the Paranormal or something like that. It's got a really cool cover. That's kind of modeled after my Mysteries in the Mist cover. So I was pretty happy with that. And also available, you have Mysteries in the Mist and what else? (01:23:54)
Oh, golly. Let's see. So I have Phantom Black Dogs, Walkers in the Liminal Way, which is about the Phantom Black Dog apparition and its various appearances throughout the UK and then in North America and South America. There's Mysteries in the Mist, which is my book on mist, fog and clouds in the paranormal, where you'll get a taste of everything that you're interested in, whether it's UFOs or cryptids or whatever, lake monsters, you name it, it's probably in that book somewhere. (01:24:29)
Canadian Monsters and Mysteries, which was a book that I wrote when I first moved to Canada, when I was wondering, what kind of weird stuff happens in my new homeland? Lots of stuff, again, everything from cryptids to UFOs, lots of lake monster stuff in that one, because there's lots of lake monster stories here. (01:24:51)
And there's giant beavers in that book. Read this book because there are giant beavers. It's one of my favorite stories from Canada. And of course, there's Sasquatch Canada, which is my look at Sasquatch lore in Canada, outside of British Columbia, which is like, you know, Sasquatch Central. I wanted to see if there were Sasquatch reports in the other Canadian provinces, and indeed there are. There are quite a number of them. (01:25:17)
And some of them are pretty weird. There's a section in the book called Stranger Things, which actually details some of the odd sightings. And now the newest one is the forest poltergeist, which is the one we've been talking about. (01:25:31)
And I'm going to have to have you back, because there's still a bunch of stuff out of this book I want to talk about. So, all right, thank you. All righty. We get to talk about spirits next time, huh? All right. I want to take a moment here to give a shout out to all of my Patreons, because without you, this show would not be possible. (01:25:53)
音声(1:28:54)
The Forest Poltergeist with Travis Watson: Part 1 - Dec 9, 2023
動画概要欄
Dec 23, 2023 Seriah is joined by Travis Watson to discuss his latest book “The Forest Poltergeist” and numerous related subjects.
(2024-11-05)