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David Marler：1964-06-02, ニューメキシコ州：白昼、黒いコマ型 UFO が少年に火炎を放射。祖母も現場で目撃 → 火傷で入院：証言音声つき

· 127 min read

関連記事​

❏ 1964-06-02, ニューメキシコ州 : 白昼、黒いコマ型 UFO が少年に火炎を放射。祖母も現場で目撃 → 火傷で入院 ⇒ この UFO の正体を推測 （途中 3） (2023-10-19)

1964-06-02, ニューメキシコ州 : 白昼、庭にいた少年の頭上に黒いコマ型 UFO が迫り、火炎を浴びせ酷い火傷を追わせた。祖母も現場でこの情景を目撃。　（途中：その2） (2019-02-12)

手抜き​

コマのような黒い UFO 、火傷した少年のスケッチ

15:10--19:27

25:52--

41:00--45:07 祖母の証言音声

50:13--53:30 当時の少年の証言音声

54:00 否定派の馬鹿げた主張

1:01:00-- 母親の証言音声

切り出し静止画​

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動画(1:49:09)​

03-03-2020 David Marler, Forgotten 1964 UFO Burn Victim Case

動画付属概要欄​

5,400 views Streamed live on Mar 4, 2020 PodcastUFO Live Show

ゲストのデビッド・マラーが、1964年のニューメキシコで起きたUFO火傷事件の最新の研究について語る。また、番組の最後には、事件から56年後の被害者チャールズ・デイヴィスへのインタビューが収録されている。トライアングルUFOについても簡単に触れている。番組を応援する / 2959947

デヴィッド・マラーのバイオグラフィー: https://davidmarlerufo.com/bio

詳細

UFO火傷犠牲者事件-1964年ニューメキシコ州

1964年、ニューメキシコでUFO目撃情報が相次ぐ中、最も信憑性が高く、十分に記録された証言のひとつが、これまで注目されることがなかった。この年、ニューメキシコで目撃された他のUFOについては全国的なメディアの注目を集めたにもかかわらず、最も劇的で恐ろしいUFOの目撃談は、ごく一部の地元や地方のニュースメディアを除いて見逃された。この事件は、単にUFOを目撃しただけでなく、8歳の少年が未確認飛行物体に襲われ、ひどい火傷を負ったというものだった。

当時のUFOの文献には少し触れられていたが、この事件はUFOコミュニティからも空軍のプロジェクト・ブルーブックからも基本的に無視された。55年以上の時を経て、この事件はようやく日の目を見ることになった。アーカイブの音声記録、新聞記事、そして数年後に目撃者／火傷被害者に行われた直接のオンカメラ・インタビューを織り交ぜることで、私たちは今、この事件を十分に理解することができる。さらに、この事件は1964年にアメリカ全土で起こった一連の類似した出来事のうちのひとつに過ぎないことが示される。

UFOの報告を評価するとき、目撃情報は一つのものである。UFOが残した物的証拠は別のものである。しかし、8歳の少年に負わされた火傷は、それ自体が一つのカテゴリーである。これは、記録されているUFO遭遇の中でも、より不穏なもののひとつである。

Guest David Marler with a premier discussion of his most recent research of a UFO Burn Victim Case - New Mexico 1964. There are early audio excerpts of an original witness and a bonus clip at the end of the show of an on camera interview with victim, Charles Davis after he has tracked down 56 years after the incident. Triangle UFOs briefly discussed. Support the show: / 2959947

BIO FOR DAVID MARLER: https://davidmarlerufo.com/bio

DETAILS

UFO Burn Victim Case - New Mexico 1964

During an impressive wave of UFO sightings in New Mexico in 1964, one of the most credible and well-documented accounts went hitherto unnoticed. Despite nationwide media attention regarding other UFO experiences in New Mexico that year, the most dramatic and horrific one was missed by all but a few local and regional news outlets. This case involved not just the sighting of a UFO, but an apparent attack and severe burning of an eight year old boy by an unidentified flying object.

Although briefly referenced in the UFO literature at the time, this case was essentially ignored by the UFO community as well as Air Force Project Blue Book. After 55+ years, this case is finally seeing the light of day. Weaving together archival audio recordings, newspaper accounts, as well as a first-hand, on-camera interview done with the witness / burn victim years later, we can now fully appreciate this case. Beyond that, it will be shown that this was just one in a series of similar events that played out across the United States in 1964.

When evaluating UFO reports, sightings are one thing. Physical evidence left by a UFO is another. But the burns inflicted on an eight year old boy is a category unto itself. This is one of the more disturbing UFO encounters on-record.

Whisper AI(large-v2 model) + DeepL​

（文字起こしの妨げととなるので元動画の冒頭から 15:00 は削除。以下の時刻表記には、それによる offset がある。）

Details

▼展開 私たちは画像に番号を振った。さて、私が最初にこの事件を読んだのはここだった。これは1964年末の『4月会報』の表紙を飾ったもので、明らかにその見出しが目を引く、 でも今、ニューメキシコに住んでいる私は、4月号がこの事件を調査し、当時は信憑性が高いと判断していたこと、そして今、ジェームズ・マクドナルドのアーカイヴから音声記録を入手したことを踏まえて、この目撃者を突き止めようと決心した。可能性は十分にある。この証人は実際にまだ生きていて、1964年の8歳の子供だったのだ。 (00:01:00)

十分ありうることだ。この証人は実際にまだ生きていた そして時間のために言っておくが 徹底的に努力した結果 この証人がまだ生きていることを突き止め 確信を得ることができた ちょっといいかな？すまない デイブ 邪魔して悪いが 君の話を聞きたいだけだ どうやって彼を探し出したか 時間はたっぷりある 実名は出さない この録音を聴いているうちに、この事件に関する具体的な録音に出くわしたんだ。当時、私は南西部のある都市に車で向かっていて、その夜、ホテルに入って、この人物がまだ生きているかどうか、徹底的に調べようと思った。夜遅くまで何度もつまずいた末に、私はようやく立証できたと思う。 (00:01:53)

(00:01:26)皮肉なことに、出てきた住所は、その日私が仕事で出張した都市と同じだった。そして実際、私が滞在していたホテルは、私が作成した地図によると、この紳士が住んでいる場所を教えてくれた住所は、私のホテルから2マイル北にあった。 (00:02:26)

翌朝、私は自分の仕事をするために、文字通り1マイル先の道まで車を走らせた。そしてその結論が出た後、同じ道をさらに1マイル走らせた、 でも残念ながら、私が突き止めた電話番号はすべて無効だった。だから私にはその仕事が残され、メールアドレスも知らなかった。 (00:02:58)

1964年のことだから、私がどれほど緊張していたか想像がつくだろう、 この数カ月間、その目撃者だけでなく、彼の妻とも対話が続いていた。妻は、私が妻と一緒に正式な事情聴取を行うまで、この事件の詳細すら知らなかった。いや、話したくないんだ。 (00:03:55)

この紳士はUFO信者とはほど遠い。懐疑論者でもなければ、信者でもない。彼は普通の紳士で、ビジネスマンであり、あなたと同じくらい普通の生活をしている。 (00:04:15)

(00:04:15)彼は平凡な紳士で、ビジネスマンで、あなたが想像するのと同じくらい普通の生活をしている UFOは彼の世界の一部ではない、 でも、ユーチューブでこれを実際に見ることができる人にとっては、私たちが見ているのはUFO図書館で、本棚を全部見ることができる。さて、私たちは今、UFO図書館のすべての本棚を見ることができる。 (00:04:54)

そうだね、今は書類棚が全部見えるけど、そうだね、何個あるかな。ところで、僕の絵の一番後ろにあるのは、君に送ったやつなんだけど、UFOが飛んでいる山なんだ。ニュースレターのような一般的な用語で言うなら、おそらく何万もの書類があると思う、 ラリー・ハッチの家族から新たな研究コレクションを入手する予定だ ラリー・ハッチは1年半ほど前に亡くなった 彼は90年代に最高のUFOデータベース・プログラムを書いていた 私は93年から94年、95年頃に彼と文通していた しかし彼が亡くなった後、私は彼に賛辞の記事を書いた 遺族は彼の研究資料をここに寄贈することに興味を持っている 最終的にはニューメキシコ大学に寄贈され、後世の研究者のために存続することになる その通りだ そして、このUFO事件について聞きたくてたまらない研究者のために、このようなジャグをとってしまって申し訳ない。 (00:06:11)

そして、このUFO事件について聞きたくてたまらないリスナーのために、このジャグをとってしまって申し訳ない。もしよろしければ......私たちは今、このジャグをやっているので...... ニューメキシコ大学が最終的にこれらの品々を保管・管理することになるんだけど、まだゴー・ファンド・ミーじゃなくて、あなたが立ち上げたページはまだ有効なの？私のウェブサイトからアクセスできる。 (00:06:38)

僕のウェブサイトから行けるよ。David Marler UFO calm David Marler UFO calmのメインページにリンクがあって、そこに少し書いてある、 UFOというテーマについて教養ある言説を持ち、陰謀論や信念体系を避け、事実のみに焦点を当てる。そして、それこそが私がアプローチした方法だ。 (00:07:21)

そして、それこそが私がアプローチした方法であり、UFOを事実フィクションに追いやろうが、民間伝承に追いやろうが、私たちの歴史の一部として、また歴史の他の側面として、同意できるだろうか？ (00:07:29)

彼らは数年前、UNMで講演するために私を招待してくれた。UFOというテーマについて、神聖な学問の殿堂で話すことができた。まあ、このエクセレント・ワオとこのサイトのことなんだけどね。 (00:08:06)

まあ、つまり、この大学は、研究者のために、延々とアーカイブUの世話をするつもりなんだ。でも、そのための時間はたっぷりあるし、またすぐに戻ってくるつもりだ。だから、これから出てくるクリップのために、音声とかをテストしなきゃいけないんだ。 (00:08:45)

だから、この休憩のすぐ後にクリップのストーリーに入るから、みんな待っててね。番組へようこそ。この番組の周りでは技術的なことがよく起こるから、デイブの陰謀に違いない。 (00:09:40)

今夜は絶対に問題がないことを確認するためにね。私たちは特別に長い休憩を取らなければならなかった。彼らは音声の復旧を試みているのだが、アップデートがうまくいかず......新しいアップデートが音声をねじ込むと決めたのだ。だからデイブが何をしようとしてもダメだった。音声を再生することができなかった。 (00:10:08)

だから、デイブが何をしようとしてもダメだった。(00:10:08)だから、デイブが何をやろうとしても、音声を55分後に再生することができなかったんだ......もう1回休憩に入るから、もう1回トライするつもりだけど......とてもやりきれないよ......せっかく素晴らしい音声クリップを流す計画があったんだから......それをマーティンに送りたいと思っているんだ。私たちはまだこれを救済することができる......私は希望を持って、それらをあなたにマーティンに送ろうとしている。 (00:10:25)

まだ救いはある。KGRラジオに転送して、みんなに聴かせるよ。ああ、聴衆をがっかりさせたくないんだ。よし、じゃあマルチタスクができるかどうかわからないけど、デイブ、実現できるよう頑張るよ。 (00:10:46)

マルチタスクができるかどうかわからないけど、もしできるんだったら、すぐに事件に取りかかろうじゃないか。 (00:10:50)

みんな待ってるんだ もちろんだ。さて、この事件は1964年6月2日の午後4時ごろに発生した。この事件で興味深いのは、先ほど述べたように、この事件がいかに劇的な事件であるにもかかわらず、当時の捜査がほとんど行われていなかったという事実である。この事件の被害者は、母親と8歳の男の子の祖母を含む故人である。 (00:11:37)

しかし、8歳の少年は明らかに主な目撃者であり、彼は実際にまだ生きていた。チャールズが8歳だったときの画像をすぐに引き出せるかどうかわからないが、画像番号6......ちょっと待ってくれ。1964年、ニューメキシコ州ホッブスにある彼の祖父母が経営していたコインランドリーの裏で、チャールズはその日遊んでいた、 彼はコインランドリーの裏口から8～10フィートほど離れた場所にいて、コインランドリーのオーナーの一人である祖母が裏口のすぐ内側に立っていた。ドアは開いていて、彼女は彼から目を離さず、コインランドリーの前の物事にも目を配ろうとしていた。その結果、彼女の注意は一瞬逸れ、空中でシュー、あるいはフーという音が聞こえ、その結果、彼女の頭が振り向いた。ほんの数分前、彼女は孫が裏の空き地で遊んでいるのを見かけたが、今、彼女は孫が裏の空き地に立っていて、その黒いてっぺんみたいな形をした物体が彼の頭の1フィート上に浮かんでいて、頭からつま先まで炎を吐きながら孫を炎に包んでいるのを見た。シャルルが火傷を負った人であったにもかかわらず、彼は明らかに祖母のようにそれを観察することができなかった。 (00:13:37)

彼は明らかに、祖母のようにそれを観察することができなかった。見てくれるかな。ああ、スカイプだ。でも、とても印象的だったのは、祖母がジェームズ・マクドナルド博士にこのことを伝えているとき、祖母がジェームズ・マクドナルド博士にこのことを伝えているとき、祖母がジェームズ・マクドナルド博士にこのことを伝えているとき、祖母がジェームズ・マクドナルド博士にこのことを伝えているときだった。 (00:14:01)

ジェームス・マクドナルド 祖母は、物体が去るとすぐに、チャールズが彼女の方に走ってきて、彼の顔はやけどを負い、髪の毛は燃えていて、彼女は彼の顔から皮膚が文字通り剥がれ落ちたと説明した。二人とも火を消そうとしている。このとき彼の髪は燃えていて、祖母は彼女に叫んだ。 (00:14:33)

二人とも火を消そうとしている。彼の髪はこの時点で燃えていた。ちょうどその頃、祖父が車で引き上げてきて、彼女は叫んだ、チャールズは火傷を負っている、彼を病院に連れて行きなさいと。その時、彼らはすぐに彼を車に押し込み、町の反対側にあるリー総合病院まで彼を連れて行った。オーケー、わかったよ。 (00:14:59)

それで病院に運ばれて ERで火傷の専門医の 治療を受けたんだ バッジャーという医師で チャールズの回想によると テキサス州ラボックの火傷専門医で、そこの救急外来を回診していた。だから彼はその病院で治療を受けていて、そこの救急外来を回診していたんだ。 (00:15:27)

その後、1、2ヶ月にわたって再診を受けなければならなかったが、公式には第2度の火傷を負ったと発表された。しかし、チャールズも彼の母親も、第2度、第3度の火傷であることをマクドナルド医師に伝えていた。母親は、その後の数日から数週間の彼の様子について、祖母と同様に語った。耳はひき肉のようだった 髪の毛はほとんど焼け落ちた (00:16:09)

彼の耳はひき肉のようだった チャールズが言ったように、彼らは基本的に裏返しにされていた。彼の唇はひどく焼けただれ、彼は一時的に目が見えなくなり、非常に黒い皮膚になった。彼はこの前まで眼鏡を必要としなかったが、事件の後、彼の目はこの後すぐに眼鏡を必要とした。 (00:16:43)

彼はこの前は眼鏡を必要としなかったが、事件の後だったと思う。しかし、祖母は、炎が彼の頭からつま先までずっと燃えていると言った。しかし、火傷の唯一の兆候は、彼の顎のラインから上だった。 着ていたシャツはまったく無傷だった。しかし祖母は、頭からつま先まで炎に包まれていたと、とても力強く語っている、 耳は元通り、顔には傷跡もない。60歳を過ぎた普通の紳士だ。(00:18:03)彼は痛みはなかったよ。 (00:18:03)

痛みはなかった。あれだけやけどして痛みがないなんて。 (00:18:11)

意味がわからないよ。ただ驚くばかりだ。全く意味がわからない。というのも、実際、彼はそれを認めているからだ。それが何なのかわからない。なぜそうなったのかわからない、 ただ、彼が知っているのは、どうやら彼は間違った時間に間違った場所にいて、この非常に劇的で非常にネガティブな体験をしたということだけだ。 階建てのアパートで、おそらく1ベッドルームの小さなアパートだろう、 決して派手ではなかった。文字通り1ベッドルームのアパートだったんだろう。 (00:19:20)

文字通り、1ベッドルームのアパートだったのだろう。そして彼は、路地を挟んだ隣の建物の屋根の上に、この黒い物体が現れるのを見たと言った。そして彼は立ち上がり、私が立ち上がったとき、その物体は私がそこにいることを知っているような気がしたし、私もその物体がそこにいることを知っていた。まるでお互いを認識しているような感じだった。そして彼は、私はその視線から離れなければならないような、そんなただ不安な感じがしたと言った。だから彼は、その物体に反応して左へ足を踏み出した。ステップを踏むか、左へ移動した。そして彼は右へ動き、対象も彼の動きを真似して右へ動いた。 (00:19:52)

彼はそれから右へ動き、対象は彼の動きを真似して右へ動いた 彼はそれから、このコンガの黒いブロックの後ろにしゃがんだ。彼は立ち上がり、その右側に移動すると、物体は再び彼の動きを真似た。つまり、2回か3回、この物体は彼の動きを真似たのだ。ただ衝撃に耐え、彼は目を閉じた。 (00:20:29)

彼は目を閉じて、このようなものを予期して、このように食いしばったのだ。それが最高の表現だ。 (00:21:05)

それが最高の表現方法だ。 子供の頃、こういう上半身を持ってたのか？ (00:21:06)

この未確認飛行物体が何であったかはわからないが、比較的小さく、古い報告でよく耳にする30フィートのなめらかな銀色の空飛ぶ円盤ではない。ところで、彼らはフライング・トップと表現した。 (00:22:11)

チャックが教えてくれたフィート（約1.5メートル）単位の寸法と一致するんだから、驚くことじゃない。 そうだ。事件の日付は1964年6月2日で、火曜日だった。この時点では、おそらく聴衆には何の意味もないだろう。しかし、他の報告書を見始めると、私がそう言った理由がある。さて。多くの聴衆が6月2日のレポートを見ることができる。 (00:22:56)

さて。(00:22:00)ジョージア州リヴォニアで起きた事件で、ビュフォード・パーハムというセールスマンがある晩遅く帰宅しようと車を走らせていたところ、黒い頂上のような形をした物体が火を噴きながら車の周囲を移動するのを目撃した。 (00:23:33)

興味深いのは、チャールズのケースは6月29日（月）に起きたとする証言がほとんどだということだ。午前1時頃だった。火曜日と言ったのには理由があるんだが、厳密には火曜日の朝だったんだ。 (00:23:58)

午前1時頃だった。そしてもう一度言う、 その後、ジョージア州では半径85マイル以内にいくつかの事件が発生し、多くの新聞記事や新聞記事を集めた。ジョージア州ホッブズでのチャールズの記述だけでなく、その6～8週間後に、同じことを記述した他の目撃者がいる。聴衆に特に聴いてもらいたいものはある？ (00:24:50)

そうだ、5番を見てみようか？そうだね、5番はもうあるから、ここを見てみよう。13番を見てみよう。いや、話してるんだ。いや、僕が話してるんだ。13番はあそこだ。クリップと言ったんだ。音声クリップのことだよ。音声クリップを聞きたい？そうだね。持っているかい？準備万端だ。音声クリップを聞きたい？はい、それは素晴らしい。 (00:25:14)

それはあるか？準備できた。どれを聞きたい？おばあちゃんにしよう。おばあちゃんと書いてあるのはある？ (00:25:21)

レース、そうだといいんだが......申し訳ない。ミセス・サムシングのミセスが見えないんだが......最初の数文字しか見えない。ここを見てみよう。申し訳ないが、彼は準備できていると言っている。わかった。そうだ、クリップを回して、おばあちゃんの声を聞いてみよう、 外を見ると、孫がそこに立っていて、この火の下で、まるで黒いもののようだった。彼が何かを言おうとしているのが見えた。そしてほんの数分後、その火のようなものが立ち去り、彼は私のところに走ってきた。そのとき、彼の顔から肉の外側が剥がれ落ち、額の髪が焼け焦げて、髪のてっぺんが焼け落ちた。僕はノーと言ったんだけど、その時一緒にいた女性が、水をかけてあげてと言ったんだ。 (00:27:23)

私は断ったが、その頃、私は彼を私から引き離した。彼は僕の腰に巻き付いていたから、僕は彼にこう言ったんだ。その頃、おじいちゃんが車で来て、チャールズは火傷がひどいんだ。それでおじいちゃんが彼を病院に連れて行って、緊急治療室に行ったんだ。 (00:28:00)

バッジャーが当直で、そこにいたので、彼はまあ、彼を病院に連れていかなければならないだろうと言って、それから彼は戻ってきた。 と言うので、「わからないよ。彼は、私が怒っていると思ったんだと思う。私は真実を話しているんだ。その時、僕はドクターに言ったんだ。 (00:28:37)

本当だよ。その時私は、彼を燃やしたものが何であれ、この右の空中からやってきて、彼の頭上に降り注いだ。彼の目はとても青かった。もちろん、その夜どんな結果になるかはわからなかった。 (00:29:00)

彼の目はとても青く、彼の小さな顔はとても大きく、彼はただ掻きたがった。傷跡が残らないようになるまで、私はほぼ24時間体制でその子のベッドのそばにいた。 ひっかかないように自分で過ごせるようになるまで、私はほぼ24時間体制でその子のベッドのそばにいた。あのおばあちゃんだ。マクドナルドは1秒だけ 聞いたんだよな？ああ、そうだ。 (00:30:14)

あのおばあちゃんだ。今、マクドナルドの声が聞こえたのは、ほんの一瞬だろう？ああ、そうだ。でも、僕にとって不可解なことのひとつがあるんだ。多くの人にとって、これはちょっとぞっとする話題なんだ。 (00:30:27)

でもね、彼女は顔の一部が剥がれ落ちたって話をしてるんだ。その男は傷跡がないんだ。ああ、これも本当に奇妙な側面だと思わない？ (00:30:37)

実際、全部を調べる時間はないんだけど、新聞の記事を調べると、警察は何が起こっているのか把握するために対立していた。7月4日から1ヶ月しか経っていないので、誰かがローマン・キャンドルを持っていたのかもしれない。 (00:31:09)

もしかしたら、誰かが1、2ブロック向こうにローマン・キャンドルを持っていて、ローマン・キャンドルを放ち、その火の玉が彼の顔に当たったのかもしれない。もうひとつは、コインランドリーにはボイラーがあり、蒸気が噴出して彼の顔を焼いたのではないか、あるいは別の警官が、通気口のひとつから糸くずの玉が飛び出してきて、それが発火して彼の顔を直撃したのではないか、と考えていた、 南西部に詳しい人のために説明しておくと、カレチと呼ばれる粘土のような密度の高い土壌があり、チャールズは最近、基本的にそれが裏手にあったと話していた。草木も生えておらず、非常に硬い。チャールズが最近、私に話してくれたのだが、基本的にあそこはそうだったそうだ。 (00:32:07)

草木も生えてなくて、ただすごく硬くて、言うなれば天然のコンクリートみたいなものだろ？ でもカレチがあったから、燃やすものは何もなかった。このカレチが良いアドベを作ると信じている。だから、みんな待っていてくれ。このメッセージの後すぐに戻るよ。 (00:32:47)

だから、みんながんばって。(00:32:32)それでは、みなさん、お待たせしました、番組へようこそ。今、ノートパソコンにダウンロードしている最中なんだけど、これからやろうとしていること。(00:33:19)だからYouTubeの人はこの番組の最後にボーナスがもらえる。 (00:33:19)

だからYouTubeの人々は、この番組の最後にボーナスを得ることができます そしてポッドキャストのリスナーは、証人とのインタビューのその音声を聞くことができます これはあなたがその特定のインタビューを行うために何年前に行うとき デビッド それは昨年の秋だった。去年の秋だね。去年の秋のインタビューだね。このインタビューは本当にいいものだから、YouTubeのボーナスになることを期待しているよ。 (00:33:57)

約11分、実際には11分だ。オーケー、番組が終わってから11分あるよ。KGRのラジオでは申し訳ないんだけど、それはできないんだ。私たちは演奏について話していたんだけど、特にその演奏について詳しく説明してくれる？ (00:34:20)

ええ、もちろん。私は最近、証人にインタビューしたんだけど、ジェームズ・マクドナルドの功績は、事件発生から4年後にこの事件を調査し始めたことだ、 次の映像は、事件から4年後の火傷の被害者チャールズが、ジェームズ・マクドナルド医師に詳細を話しているところだ。ジェームズ・マクドナルド ジェームズ・マクドナルド医師に詳細を伝える。 (00:35:03)

ジェームズ・マクドナルド. (00:35:03)ジェイムズ・マクドナルドだ。 (00:36:00)

なるほど、路地を通ってきたのか。どうやって最初に見たんだ？ そして、それは下に降りてきた。 でも、僕の上には行かなかった。 ただ、下に降りてきたんだ。 そして、僕の体には何が起こったんだろう？ でも体には触れなかった そして、この事件が非常に敬虔な保守的なペンテコステ派の家族であったという事実にも触れておかなければならない。彼らは経営者であったのだ。懐疑論者や人々はこの事件を笑い飛ばし、この人たちはUFO信者の一団なのだと言うだろう。 (00:39:02)

彼は偶然怪我をして、彼らがこのUFOストーリーをでっちあげたのだろうか？ 彼らがそんなことをするようには思えないし、そんなことをする心理状態にはない。もう1つの提案は、彼らは意図的に彼を焼いたのか？ どういう理由で......つまり、とても奇妙なことだ。私が彼らについて学んだことに基づくと、彼らの構成には当てはまらない。 (00:39:23)

それは、私が彼らについて学んだことに基づいて、これらの個人の構成に適合しない。実際、チャールズとの最近のインタビューで、彼はこう言ったんだ。多くの人は、僕らが金儲けをしようとしていると思っただろうね。彼は私に、最近インタビューして思ったことを打ち明けたと言った。 (00:40:01)

彼は私にこう打ち明けた。1964年のことならともかく、ニューメキシコ州のホワイトサンズ・ミサイル発射場かホロマン空軍基地のどちらかから飛来した軍用機に違いない。だから、繰り返すが、彼らはこのような物語を作ったり、組み立てたりしている宇宙士官候補生ではないのだ。彼と会って、彼が56年ぶりにこのことについて考え始めるまでは、文字通り何十年も考えたことのなかった多くの考えやアイデアが表面化し始めた。 (00:40:48)

彼は本当に感情的になったことはあったのだろうか？つまり、これはディックのようなもので、古い傷跡をほじくり返しているようなものだ。 その時、彼は感情的になったことはあった？それとも、そのことについて話すことができた？ (00:41:03)

彼はそのことをうまく話すことができた。でも、そのことを話題にしてくれて本当にうれしい。というのも、彼にインタビューするとき、そのことは常に私の頭の片隅にあったからだ。実際、私が最初に彼の家のドアを完全にアポなしでノックして、当時55年前だったこの事件を掘り起こしたいと思ったのは、さっき言ったとおりだ。だから私は、まだできるだけデリケートであろうとした。 (00:41:26)

(00:41:00)要点を押さえようとしたんだけど、いや、実際、別のクリップにあるコメントの中には、会議でシェアすると言ったように、彼は、当初は何か奇妙なことだったんだ。でも、私たち家族は、彼が言ったように、このことを押し入れにしまい込んで、忘れようとした。ひどい芝刈り機のようだ。火を噴き、黒煙を吐いている。 (00:42:11)

ひどい芝刈り機のようだ。火を噴き、黒い煙を吐いている......私たちが先端技術だと思うようなモデルには当てはまらない しかし同時に、昨年秋にチャールズと話した際、彼はこうも言っていた。ドローンのようなものだと思うが、1964年当時を振り返って、ドローンがどのような動きをしていたかを知っていると彼は言った。そう、こんな風に素早く動くんだ。彼は1964年と言い、これが彼の動きをどのように模倣したかを遡った。 (00:42:40)

ああ、こんな風に素早く動くんだ。そして彼は私にこう質問したんだ。たとえそれがあったとしても、なぜ彼らは8歳の子どもを探して燃やすんだろう？なぜ地球外生命体は、8歳の子供を燃やすためだけに遠くまで飛んでいくんだ？彼は言った。まあ、それはそうだが、チャールズも同じ議論ができるだろう。 (00:43:04)

なぜ地球外生命体は、8歳の子供を燃やすためだけに、はるばる遠くまで飛んでいくのだろう？彼は行く。まあ、それはそうだ。どう考えても辻褄が合わないんだ。デビッド・イット・ハプニング......そうだ、君がこの事件を調べていたとき、このような事件が「不可解な謎」に載ることがよくあるんだ、 MUFONの元国際ディレクターで、親友でもあり同僚でもあるジョン・シュースラー（John Schuessler）が、過去数十年に起きた火傷患者や放射線症例、身体への電磁気的影響を含むUFO事件の簡単なあらすじを、非常に小さなパラグラフで記録した生理学的なケースレポートを書いた。その記事はFate誌に掲載され、1970年末にはNational Enquirer誌にも掲載されたようだ。 (00:44:08)

その記事は『Fate』誌に掲載され、1970年末には『ナショナル・エンクワイアラー』誌に掲載されたようだ。事件から6年も経っているのだから、それについての言及はあるのだが、誰も時間を割いて、この事件をさかのぼって調査しようとか、この目撃者に話を聞こうとは言わない。興味深いのは、番組の冒頭で話した、古い事件を見てみようという話にも触れていることだ。チャールズは、もし15年前、20年前にあなたが私の家のドアをノックしてきたとしても、私はおそらくこの件についてあなたに話すことはないだろうと率直に言った。 (00:44:42)

彼はこう言ったんだ。僕は君のことをよく知ったし、君が正しい理由でこれをやっていることも知っている。誰がこれを見ようと気にしない。 (00:45:05)

誰がこの話を聞くかなんて気にしない 世の中には懐疑的な人も多いけど、信じたい人がいるならそれでいい 信じたくない人がいるならそれもまたいい 彼は言った。共感できる？たとえ目撃者でも、時間の経過とともに、精神的にも心理的にも状況に対処できるようになる。そうだね。最後のクリップを再生してみようか？ (00:45:45)

母親のインタビューだ。もしよろしければ、彼女の画像はないと思うが、母親のケースを再生してみよう。いいね？ (00:45:55)

どうだった？そして、彼は彼女に駆け寄り、彼女はそれを窒息させようと彼をつかんだ。それで、彼は燃えているように見えたらしい。彼は、これが起こる限り、そしてこれが起こったとき、彼はかなり若かったが、彼は決して話を変えなかった。そしてもちろん、ここ数年のことだから、彼の目は、少し前に検査を受けたが、悪化しているようだった。テイラー博士から聞いた話だとね。そして、彼は私にその体を教えてくれた。 (00:47:45)

そして彼は彼女に駆け寄り、彼女はそれをもみ消そうと彼をつかんだ。それで彼は燃えているように見えたらしい。彼は、これが起きた時、彼はまだ若かったんだけど、これが起きる限り、自分の話を変えなかった。そしてもちろん、ここ数年のことだから、彼の目は、少し前に検査を受けたが、悪化しているようだった。テイラー医師から聞いた話ではね。眼鏡をかけなければならない原因は、火傷の熱だと言われた。火傷の熱が目にダメージを与えたのだという。彼の左耳には、ご覧のような傷跡がある。でも、火傷の跡を見たら、信じられないだろうね。そこには刑事も警察もいた。私の理解では、刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。そして、彼らは刑事と警察官を持っていた......彼が眼鏡をかけなければならなかった原因の本質は、火災による熱だった。 (00:48:15)

火傷の熱で目に障害が出たという。彼の左耳には、ご覧のような傷跡がある。でも火傷の跡を見たら、信じられないだろうね。あそこには刑事も警察もいた。私の理解では、刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。 (00:48:20)

そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。 (00:48:40)

そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。そして彼らには刑事と警察官がいた。刑事と警察官がいた。そして彼らは彼の火傷をすべて検証した。 だからわからないけど、刑事と警察を送ったけど、何も見つからなかったのは確かだよ。 グラハム医師は軽蔑さえされなかった。 (00:48:54)

説明のつかないことだ。 自分でもよく考えて、何なんだろうと思ったものだ。 これがクリップ？そうだよ。 チャールズと話をしていて面白かったんだけど、ここ何十年もこのことについて考えたことがなかった彼に、ある啓示がもたらされたんだ。 親として、このことが母に与えた影響について考えるのをやめたことはなかった。 (00:49:22)

祖母から電話がかかってきて、これが空中から飛び出してきて、顔と頭に大やけどを負ったという、一見とんでもない話を聞いた。 (00:49:35)

親として、こんなこと考えたこともなかった。 彼はカメラを見て言った。 彼は言ったよ、僕は今になってようやくこういうことを考え始めたんだ。 その電話を受けたことで、自分が母に与えた感情的な影響について考えるのをやめたことはない、と彼は言った。 (00:49:51)

あなたには娘がいる。 もし奥さんから電話があって、娘の一人が頭から大やけどを負ったと言われたらどうだろう。 あなたは答えを求め、説明を求めるだろう。 このように、私たちが対話と話し合いを始めるまで、彼が考えたこともなかったようなことがたくさんあった。 マーティン、そういえばイメージナンバー10の話をしたっけ？ (00:50:13)

それを共有したかったんだ。 それは私と妻がチャールズと一緒にいたときのことだ。 今すぐ持ってくるよ。 ちょうど今、基本的に今日のチャールズの画像があるんだけど、それを引っ張り出してくるよ。 ああ、いいね。 そうだ、ここにある。 あなたと奥さんとチャールズが一緒に写っている写真がYouTubeにアップされている。 そうだね。 そうだ 彼と彼の奥さんと一緒に週末を過ごして、彼らのこと、彼らが住んでいる南西部の街で経営しているビジネスのことを本当に知る機会を得たんだ。 (00:50:47)

私たちはケースを超えた多くのことを話した。 その結果、かなり良い友情が芽生えたよ。 小さな小さな部屋だ。 なぜかカメラのピントがずれている。 あなたが入った小さな小さな部屋で、あなたはそこに戻って詰めた。彼はビジネスを経営していて、従業員は一体何が起こっているのか不思議に思っている。 その週末はジョークが飛び交った。 (00:51:12)

私たちはたくさんの機材を持ち込んでいて、彼は幅6フィート、長さ10フィートか11フィートくらいの小さなオフィスを持っていた。 チャールズはそこで机に向かっている。 私は三脚にセットされたカメラの後ろにいて、妻は部屋の奥の角のドアの近くに挟まっている。 そして、インタビューの前後には、従業員の何人かが私たちを見ることができるような、ちょっとしたプライベートエリアに出た。 (00:51:42)

何度か従業員たちがやってきて、彼に質問しなければならなかった。 そして彼は言った、「みんな、君たちが誰で、ここで何をしているのか知ろうとしてるんだ。 彼は言ったんだ、事業と投資家の売却を考えているとね。 だから、彼の従業員でさえこの事件を知らない。 そして言ったように、彼の妻はその週末まで詳細を知らなかった。 (00:52:05)

へえ。 あなたが彼と話した時、彼はこの件を片付けて、彼の人生から足を洗うというような話をした？ (00:52:12)

その... つまり、彼の人生から消えて 二度とそのことを口にしないようにする 意図はあった？ ほとんどね。 つまり、さっき言ったように、私が彼の家のドアをノックするまではね。 その後、いくつかの記事が書かれたと彼は言っていた。 実際、そのうちの1つがあったかもしれない。 画像は7枚目だったと思う。 (00:52:30)

もしそれをまだ引っ張り出していなければ。 そうだ。 黒い塊の記事だ。 そうだ オーケー。 数年前の記事だ そうだね。 そうそう、何度もアップしたことがあるんだ。 そうだね。 そうだね。 そうだね。 確かにそうだね。 それは事件の1年か2年後に書かれたものだった。 その後に書かれた記事がいくつかあって、人々は彼らに連絡を取ろうとしたんだ。 (00:52:51)

しかし、そのような働きかけのほとんどは、その母親によって拒絶された。 彼らは何かが起こったことを知っている。 彼らは何が起こったのか理解することができなかった。 実際、チャールズは実に興味深い洞察をしていた。 もし今日、誰かが私のところに来て、何が起こったのかと聞いてきたとしたら、55年、56年前のことを振り返って、母や父や祖父母がその場にいて、その余波を目の当たりにしていたのに、当時は話すことができなかったことを、大人である私がどうやって明確に話すことができるだろう、と。 (00:53:32)

当時子供だった私が、今大人になって振り返ってみて、どうすればもっとはっきりさせることができるのだろう？ 私にできることは、あなたと分かち合ったように詳細を分かち合い、できる限り多くの質問に答えようとすることだけだ。 でも、それが何なのかはまだわからない。 ある人は軍隊だと言う。 UFOだと言う人もいる。 (00:53:50)

でも彼は言ったんだ。 でも彼は、一日の終わりに、何かが起こったことは確かだと言った。 彼の回復過程はどのようなものだったのか？ そうだね、最初の1週間は、さっきも言ったように、彼は病院にいた。 ニュース記事がある。 (00:54:13)

今、それをアップした。 すごいな。 ラボック・アバランチだ。 テキサス州ラボックでその記事が掲載されたんだ。 テキサス州オデッサにもあったが、それ以外には地元の新聞以外、つまりニューメキシコ州ホッブスの新聞とリー郡の新聞にほとんどの記事が掲載されていた。 そして、ほぼ毎日のように彼の回復を追うことができる。 (00:54:38)

彼が入院していたその1週間、1日ごとに彼の状態を更新するニュース記事があったんだ。 それでまた、後遺症はあるのか？ 唯一の後遺症は、右耳の聴力障害が残っていることだ。 さっきも言ったように、眼鏡をかけなければならない。 (00:54:56)

そうだね。 一般的に、あなたが言ったように、彼は、それが何であるか、彼は今日あなたに言うことができないか、または当時あなたに言うことができなかった、彼が持っている、彼は知らなかったが、あなたは、あなたが周りを掘っていたとき、その時点でどのような推測の種類は、あなたはそれで何を見つけたのか？ あなたはすでに、糸くずのような、焦げた糸くずのような、ホワホワしたものは何かと言ったが、もっと論理的なもの、あるいはそれが何であるかに関して論理的と思われるものは何だったのか？ (00:55:29)

ああ、警察が想定していた他のことのひとつは、彼はただマッチで遊んでいたということだった。 実際、彼は病院で警官の一人が彼にこう言ったのを覚えている。 もしマッチを見かけたら、大変なことになるぞ、と。 彼らは、彼がマッチで遊んでいて、どうにかして彼の髪に火をつけたのだと思った。 (00:55:53)

確かに髪に火がつくことはあるだろうが、それで彼が負ったような重度の火傷を負うとは思えない。 でも彼は、ロケに行ったけどマッチが見つからなかったと言っていた。 コインランドリーの中の誰かがタバコに火をつけてマッチを投げつけたりしなければいいのだが。 (00:56:10)

もし何か見つかったら、僕が全部でっちあげたと思われる。 祖母の証言もある。 彼女は実際にその物体を目撃している。 単に火傷を目撃したというだけではない。 彼女は物体を見た。 その物体が彼に危害を加えるのを見たのだ。 そしてまた、敬虔なペンテコステ派の家族である。 (00:56:36)

UFOはおそらく彼らの考えにはなかった。 その通りだ。 さて、最後のクリップからひとつ触れておきたいのは、FBIが関与していたということだ。 祖母のブラウスはFBIの研究所に送られた。 祖母のブラウスはFBIの研究所に送られた。 それを送って、彼が着ていたTシャツも送って分析してもらった。 (00:57:01)

家族はそれについて何の連絡もよこさなかった。 何の連絡もなかった。 それで昨年12月、私はFBIに情報公開請求をして、事件ファイルやあらゆる情報、検査結果など、FBIの立場から見ることができるあらゆるものを手に入れようとした。 2～3週間もしないうちに、第三者の個人情報が含まれているため、プライバシーの問題に抵触するという拒絶の手紙を受け取った。 (00:57:27)

それで彼らは私の依頼を打ち切った。 そこで私はまったく同じ依頼書を書き直し、私の名前を消してチャールズの名前を入れ、チャールズに郵送して署名と日付をもらい、チャールズの名前で提出した。 (00:57:41)

だから、その時点では第三者とは言えない。 面白い方法だ。 彼は返書を受け取り、追加情報が必要だと言われた。 前回彼と話してから、実はそれほど時間が経っていないのだが、彼は追加書類をすべて記入して提出する時間と労力をかけるかどうかで悩んでいた。 だからフォローアップが必要なんだ。 (00:58:01)

繰り返すが、彼はこれに多くの時間を費やしたくないのだ。 でも彼はUFOに興味があるわけではないし、仕事もある。 彼には家族がいる。 でも、彼が再提出しているかどうか、彼と話すつもりだ。 もし再提出していなければ、FBIの検査結果を得るために再提出を説得したい。 (00:58:22)

オーケー、1つだけはっきりさせておきたいことがあるんだが、これについてはまだ全然触れていないと思う。 そして、彼は人々に公表されることを望んでいない。 彼はビジネスを経営している。 彼は自分のいる小さな町で知られている。 多くの人がこのビジネスに参入してくるが、彼はファンファーレを全く望んでいない。 (00:58:51)

だから彼は何も得るものがない。 そして基本的に、あなたは彼とつながる方法を知っている。 彼とつながりたい人は、そのことを忘れることを勧めるよ。 そうだね。 彼は誰からも話を聞きたくないんだ。 もし誰かが本当に感じたり、同じような経験をして、彼にコンタクトを取りたいと思ったら、僕のウェブサイトから連絡してくれたら、喜んでメールを転送するよ。 (00:59:17)

ただ、返信が来るとは保証できない。 でも、僕が受け取ったメールを彼に転送することは、視聴者に約束するよ。 そしてその時点で、返信するかどうかは彼次第だ。 素晴らしい。 (00:59:30)

We numbered the images. So anyway, so go ahead Well, this is where I first read about this case. This was the cover story of the April Bulletin back in late 1964 and Obviously the headline captures your attention, you know boy burned in New Mexico and I thought that was rather interesting but at the time when I first read that April Bulletin I was living in st Louis so there wasn't much I could do living, you know in the Midwest and this occurred way down in the southwest But now living in New Mexico where I reside I decided that Given the fact that April investigated it and I might add deemed it credible at the time seemingly credible and then now Armed with the audio recordings from James McDonald's archives I decided to try to track down this witness a lot of these old cases that people relegate to the dustbin But when you think about it 1964 eight-year-old child do the math. It's quite possible. This witness was still in fact alive and kicking and 1964 eight-year-old child do the math. (00:01:00)

It's quite possible. This witness was still in fact alive and kicking and Let's just say and for the sake of time after an exhaustive effort I was able to track down and establish that this witness was still alive Can we just get it? I'm sorry, Dave. Pardon me for interrupting you, but I Just want you to tell the story you told me and we got plenty of time On how you you tracked him down and we won't use Real names, but yeah Absolutely as I was listening to these audio recordings When I stumbled across these specific recordings on this case I was driving to a city in the southwest as part of my territory that I covered at the time and I got into my hotel that night and I decided to try to do some exhaustive research try to track down see if this person Was still alive After a number of stumbling blocks late into the night. I finally think I established After a number of stumbling blocks late into the night. (00:01:53)

I finally think I established The individual and found out where he lived Ironically enough the address that popped up was the same city that I had traveled to for business that day And in fact the hotel I was staying at According to the maps that I drew up the address that was giving me for where this gentleman lived was two miles north of my hotel and Between Synchronicities its synchronicity and between the hotel and his home Was the hospital that I was going to be doing business with the next day? (00:02:26)

So I literally drove one mile down the road the next morning to do my job and once I had concluded that I drove another mile down the same road and I was in this person's front yard and In this day and age, I don't typically do this But unfortunately the numbers the phone numbers that I had tracked down were all invalid So I was left with the task and I didn't have an email address So I was left with the task of literally showing up unannounced on this gentleman's doorstep Knocking on his door and asking him were you burned by a UFO back in? (00:02:58)

1964 so you can imagine how nervous I was in doing that, especially if I had the wrong person But long story short, I knocked on the door a gentleman answered the door and he kind of gave me this look like oh my god Yes, I'm I'm that individual and we wound up scheduling about a half hour to 45 minutes to have a conversation and Later, I followed up with the individual and did a more formal interview And I must say that there's been ongoing dialogue over the last several months not only with the witness But his wife who I might add did not even know the details of this case Until I showed up with my wife to do the formal interview and for years She used to ask him because he had alluded to it and she would ask him And his name's Charles Charles Do you want to talk about that incident in 64 and he would always respond with and she told me this herself Nope, I don't want to talk about it. There's no need to talk about it Nope, I don't want to talk about it. (00:03:55)

There's no need to talk about it Don't want to talk about it and I have to to emphasize before we get into the details of the case This gentleman is as far from a UFO believer as possible. I wouldn't label him a skeptic I wouldn't label him a believer. He's an average gentleman who is a businessman who has about as normal of a life as you I wouldn't label him a believer. (00:04:15)

He's an average gentleman who is a businessman who has about as normal of a life as you Could imagine UFOs is not part of his world Although in 1964 it broke through into his reality with this case that we're gonna be talking about Right, right I've just to set the scene because of the people in the podcast don't know this but we're in your library And first of all, I want to say you have some type of strange light coming through that's going like right in On your forehead and into your eyes It's the angle of the Sun but for the for the person that can actually see this on YouTube what we're looking at and you can look at this is the UFO library look at all those bookcase. Well, we can see right now all the UFO library look at all those bookcase. (00:04:54)

Well, we can see right now all the filing cabinets, but yes How many and and by the way, my paintings right in the very background the one I sent you It's a mountain with a UFO flying over it anyway If you had to guess how many documents you have housed there right now, have you ever thought of that? Oh Documents, I mean if you use that in the general term as far as newsletters reports things like that nature I would say probably tens of thousands Yeah the only thing I can tell you definitively is there's 16 four-drawer file cabinets full and then there's also bins on top because I'm literally literally running out of space here and In fact in two weeks, I'll be acquiring a new collection of research from Larry Hatch's family Larry Larry Hatch passed away about a year and a half ago He wrote one of the best UFO database programs back in the 90s and I corresponded with him back in 93-94 95 timeframe and But after he passed away I wrote a tribute article to him and the family is interested in donating his research materials here Which will ultimately go to the University of New Mexico Which will survive for future generations of Researchers, that's right. And I'm sorry for taking this jag for the listen that's dying to hear about this UFO case Researchers, that's right. (00:06:11)

And I'm sorry for taking this jag for the listen that's dying to hear about this UFO case And what happened but we only have a couple minutes before we're going into the first break. So if you would We're since we're on this jag right now. Just finish off the University of New Mexico is eventually going to house and care for these items and do you still have the Not the go fund me but whatever the page that you had up is that still active Yes, the go fund me site is active. It can be reached through my website Yes, the go fund me site is active. (00:06:38)

It can be reached through my website David Marler UFO calm David Marler UFO calm and it's on the main page There is a link there that talks a little bit about that And in fact, you'll see the the legal deed of gift to you and em On there as well and I talked about that and in fact, I've even lectured at UNM once I approached them and told him about the collection I had and I've met with the Dean of Library Library Science the director of the Southwest Special Collections Group If you have an educated discourse on the UFO subject and you avoid Conspiracy tales and belief systems and you focus solely on the facts These people are interested in learning more about it. And that's exactly how I approached it These people are interested in learning more about it. (00:07:21)

And that's exactly how I approached it And I state that whether you relegate UFOs to fact fiction or folklore Can we agree as part of our history and as any other aspect of history? (00:07:29)

shouldn't we preserve that and they completely unanimously agreed and Subsequent to that initial discussion and dialogue once they learned about my methodology and how I cite my resources Which a lot of researchers unfortunately in this field don't do cite your site your sources Where are you getting this information when I show them it's coming through credible sources Newspapers government documents They invited me to speak at UNM a couple years ago and was able to speak in the hallowed halls of academia on the UFO Subject which was truly an honor Excellent Wow and this site. Well, I mean this Excellent Wow and this site. (00:08:06)

Well, I mean this University is going to be taking care of archival II taking care of these for researchers for For on and on and on. I think it's a wonderful thing you're doing and yeah It's it just gives more confidence to someone that is Considering, you know donating some things to you and again I apologize to the listener for not going diving right into this case But we've got plenty of time for that and we are going to be coming right back Right after this break I am taking a true break and when I do We have to test out our audio and stuff for that for the clips that are going to be coming up. So We have to test out our audio and stuff for that for the clips that are going to be coming up. (00:08:45)

So Yeah, we'll get into the story in the clips right after this break so hang on everyone we'll be right back Right about about three or four minutes right after these messages All right. Welcome back to the show. I have to tell you something And that is It must be a conspiracy Dave because I tell you what technical things seem to happen around these shows I Can make a real conspiracy theory out of this but Just before the show I went and when Dave Dave left for work this morning He saw that Microsoft was gonna do an update and sure enough when he came home and it was getting ready to connect It said it was 91% Updating you tried to stop the update, but I guess they kind of force them through So we spent some what do we spend like a half hour 45 minutes the other day? (00:09:40)

Please yeah to make sure that was we're gonna be absolutely no problems tonight and During the break. We had to take an extra long break. They are trying to get the audio Working and to no avail the the update the new update decided that it was going to Screw the audio. So no matter what Dave was just trying to do. We could not get audio to play through at the Screw the audio. (00:10:08)

So no matter what Dave was just trying to do. We could not get audio to play through at the 55 minutes after the hour we're gonna go into another break and we will make another attempt but it's very it's crushing because of The plan that we had to run these wonderful audio clips I'm trying to send them over to you Martin in the hopes. We can still salvage this I'm trying to send them over to you Martin in the hopes. (00:10:25)

We can still salvage this Yeah, I mean go ahead and try to send them. I don't know if you can talk and send at the same time but do that and I will forward them on to KGR a radio and get them to play them so we all can hear. Yeah, I don't want to disappoint the audience We're gonna try to make this happen. All right, so I don't know if you can multitask Dave We're gonna try to make this happen. (00:10:46)

All right, so I don't know if you can multitask Dave But if you happen to be able to do that, why don't we get right into the case? (00:10:50)

Everyone's just waiting to hear about it. Absolutely. Well this occurred way back in June on June 2nd 1964 around 4 o'clock in the afternoon and what's interesting about this is the fact that despite how dramatic the case is as we alluded to there was very little in the way of investigation at the time and so There was a really a lot of work on my part to try to establish what transpired and Send those files right now, I think and so What we're looking at is kind of a retrospective investigation a number of the witnesses are Deceased including the mother and the grandmother of the eight-year-old boy. That was the victim in this case Deceased including the mother and the grandmother of the eight-year-old boy. (00:11:37)

That was the victim in this case however, the eight-year-old boy obviously is the principal witness and he was in fact still alive and I don't know if we can pull up real quick an image of Charles what he looked like when he was eight years old image number six you bet we'll get right there just a second. Here we go Go ahead Yeah, and so that's Charles and Charles was playing that day in the back of the laundromat which his grandparents owned in Hobbs, New Mexico back in 1964 and as he has referenced in my interviews, it was kind of a home away from home It was one of the family businesses and he was playing out in the back lot And he was approximately eight to ten feet from the back door of the laundromat His grandmother one of the owners of the laundromat was standing just inside the back doorway the door was open and she was trying to keep an eye on him and keep an eye on things at the front of the laundromat and So as a result of that She was her attention was diverted momentarily and she hears a swoosh or a whooshing sound in the air and as a result of that her head turns and Whereas just minutes before she saw her grandson playing in the back lot She now saw him standing in the back lot with this black top shaped object hovering one foot above his head Belching fire down from head to toe and engulfing her grandson in this fire this all transpired in just a matter of several seconds and the fire disappeared the object shot off and The grandchild came running towards her with his hair on fire temporarily blinded as a result of being burned by this object and so that's kind of what set the stage for it and Even though Charles was the person that was burned. He obviously could not observe it as well as the grandmother Charles was the person that was burned. (00:13:37)

He obviously could not observe it as well as the grandmother And so I just sent the files over via Skype Martin. I don't know if you can see those. Oh, they're Skype Okay, all right, all right, very good. Yeah, go ahead I don't know if you have those but we might be able to get one queued up here in a little bit and we'll be able to hear the grandmother but what was very telling is as the As the grandmother was relaying this to dr. James McDonald As the grandmother was relaying this to dr. (00:14:01)

James McDonald She described that as soon as the object departed Charles ran towards her and his face was burned hair was on fire and she described skin literally coming off of his face Falling off of his face in the aftermath of being burned by this UFO or this unusual object The there was a nurse working or doing her laundry in the front of the laundromat The grandmother shouted to her. They both are trying to put the fire out. His hair was on fire at this point and The grandmother shouted to her. (00:14:33)

They both are trying to put the fire out. His hair was on fire at this point and Just about that time the grandfather Pulled up in his vehicle and she shouted saying Charles has been burned get him to the hospital at which point they quickly shuffled him into the car and drove him to the other side of town to the Lee General Hospital and we may have an image of that hospital just to kind of provide some context there I think it's image number 14 Martin you bet. Okay. I got it I think it's image number 14 Martin you bet. (00:14:59)

Okay. I got it And so they took him to the hospital Where he was treated by a burn specialist in the ER the emergency room a dr. Badger was his name and from Charles's recollection In my recent interview with him. He stated that As he recalls he was a burn specialist out of Lubbock, Texas That would do rounds in the emergency room there. And so he was treated at the hospital That would do rounds in the emergency room there. (00:15:27)

And so he was treated at the hospital He was there for approximately a week Although he had to go back for subsequent follow-up visits over a period of a month or two the official Proclamation was he suffered second-degree burns. However Both Charles and his mother had relayed to dr. McDonald that they were second and third degree burns The mother described what he looked like as well as the grandmother in the aftermath and the ensuing days and weeks They said his face had swelled up so bad you couldn't even see his nose He had a black sooty material deposited all over his face Most of his hair was burned off. His ears looked like ground beef Most of his hair was burned off. (00:16:09)

His ears looked like ground beef They were as Charles told me they were basically turned inside out But they looked like raw raw meat. His lips were burned severely He was temporarily blinded and he had a very dark skin temporarily blinded and as a result of this The only long-term side effects that he had or long-term medical consequences he had as a result is his hearing was damaged in his right ear and His eyes he needed glasses shortly after this. He didn't need glasses before this but after the incident His eyes he needed glasses shortly after this. (00:16:43)

He didn't need glasses before this but after the incident I believe it was. Dr Taylor was the optometrist or the eye doctor that he saw after he had healed up the the Doctor basically implied that he needed to have glasses as a result of the heat that was exposed to his eyes and so Since then he's worn glasses and he's had a hearing deficit in his right ear But that being said the grandmother described flames burning all the way down from his head to his toe Yet the only telltale sign of a burn was from his jawline up In other words his neck his shoulders his t-shirt he was wearing was completely intact But the grandmother very emphatically stated he was covered from head to toe in fire And so we have these incongruities these things that we just can't explain And the other thing we can't explain is the fact that despite the severity of his burns If you were to look at him today, you would never know that he had succumbed to any type of burn His ears are back to normal, there's no scarring on the face He's just your your average 60 plus year old gentleman, and you know, oh, pardon me What I think of I think you're your cameras off a little bit now You're looking over at an angle, but I think the the strangest part of this correct me if I'm wrong. He had no pain You're looking over at an angle, but I think the the strangest part of this correct me if I'm wrong. (00:18:03)

He had no pain No pain, that was another unusual aspect unusual. How can you be that burned and have no pain? (00:18:11)

It doesn't make any sense to me. It's just amazing. It doesn't make any sense at all. And in fact it was interesting because You know, he admits that in fact, you know, he will state matter-of-factly It doesn't make any sense. I don't know what it was. I don't know why it happened, but I know it happened and You've seen the full interview to get a flavor of his sincerity He doesn't claim to have any answers the only thing he knows is he apparently was at the wrong place at the wrong time and Had this very dramatic very negative experience another aspect of this which is very interesting is When he was playing in the back lot his attention was drawn to this object that appeared In just for the audience's sake he was in the back lot immediately next to that was a back alley and Immediately after that was a one-story apartment building which was probably little one-bedroom apartments They were it wasn't, you know, very fancy by any means. It was probably literally a one-bedroom apartment and They were it wasn't, you know, very fancy by any means. (00:19:20)

It was probably literally a one-bedroom apartment and He said he saw this black object appear over the roof of the neighboring building there across the alley And he stood up and he stated when I stood up I felt like it knew I was there and I knew it was there like there was mutual recognition And he stated that I had this just uneasy feeling like I just needed to get out of its gaze So he stepped to the left the object in response Step or move to the left. He then moved to the right the object mimicked his movements and moved to the right Step or move to the left. (00:19:52)

He then moved to the right the object mimicked his movements and moved to the right He then crouched down behind this black block of conga. There's this Block of concrete that was there almost to hide from the thing Then he stood up and moved to the right of it the object again mimicked his movement So two or three times we have this object Mirroring his movements and as soon as he moved again to the right the object within a split second advanced towards him To it moves so fast that he stated I felt like it was almost as if a car's coming at you and you know You can't move in time. You just brace for impact and he closed his eyes You can't move in time. (00:20:29)

You just brace for impact and he closed his eyes He clenched up like this in anticipation of this thing he said I thought it was gonna go through me But in point of fact, it didn't go through him the object Advanced moved directly over his head at which point it belched this column of fire down that consumed his body then Disappeared and then the object immediately departed Dave This is just really fascinating for the YouTube Person we just have the image up there now of the sketch of what he sketched out as the black blob It looks like a top. That's the best way you can describe it It looks like a top. (00:21:05)

That's the best way you can describe it Is it when you're a kid you have these tops? (00:21:06)

They usually have a stick on the top that you wrap the string around make it spin around So this is missing the stick, but it basically looks like a black top He described it at the time and most recently as a black top He stated that it was approximately two to three feet wide and five to six feet tall So we're not talking a large UFO and I use that term literally unidentified flying object We don't know what this unidentified flying object was, but it was relatively small this isn't the 30-foot sleek silver flying saucer that we're used to hearing about in the older reports and So it's very interesting that we have this object Interestingly enough in going through the historical data I found a case that Jacques Vallée talked about in one of his early books a challenge to science and You could literally overlay those two sketches the witnesses in France and their Dimensions that they described because it was European case was listed in meters When you convert the meters that they used to describe their object, which by the way, they described as a flying top. No surprise When you convert the meters that they used to describe their object, which by the way, they described as a flying top. (00:22:11)

No surprise it matches the dimensions in feet that Chuck had given me Yeah, isn't that something and was was that particular neck if you're saying meters and that was European But wasn't there some sightings in Georgia? Yes. Well, and that's that's what's really fascinating about this case now the date of the incident was June 2nd, 1964 Which was a Tuesday and that probably means nothing to the audience at this point But there's a reason that I mentioned that When we start looking at other reports and I've got some of the reports right here That was on June 2nd. Now. We have a report that many the audience members can can look up That was on June 2nd. (00:22:56)

Now. We have a report that many the audience members can can look up There was a case from Livonia, Georgia Where a salesman by the name of Buford Parham was driving home late one evening and He saw a black top shaped object Belching fire and it made three passes at his vehicle as he was driving He felt intense heat as it as it moved around the vehicle And in fact, it burned his arm His arm was red from exposure to heat as a result of this thing But he described it as a flying top black belching fire very similar in nature to what? (00:23:33)

Charles described Now Charles's case occurred about two to three weeks before now What's interesting about that is most accounts will state that it occurred on Monday, June 29th But when I went to the original investigator notes, it did occur the night of June 29th But technically it was Tuesday morning. It was around 1 o'clock in the morning. And again, there's a reason I'm saying Tuesday But technically it was Tuesday morning. (00:23:58)

It was around 1 o'clock in the morning. And again, there's a reason I'm saying Tuesday After that we had several other cases in Georgia within an 85 mile radius of each other that garnered many newspaper articles and newspaper accounts where multiple groups of people were describing a UFO that was a black top shaped object belching fire so we don't only have Charles's description in Hobbes way over in Georgia in the intervening or in the subsequent What six to eight weeks after that we have other witnesses describing the same thing and I might add Many of the cases in Georgia had local law enforcement that showed up on the scene who also witnessed the UFO Wow We have Dave we do have the clips Cued up. So is there one in particular you'd like the audience to hear? (00:24:50)

Yes, why don't we take a look at number? Well, we have number five already Let's look at let me see here. Just trying to see let's look at number 13. No, I'm talking. I'm sorry Let me be more clear about that. I have 13 up there. I was said clips. I meant clips audio clips Do you like to listen to an audio clip? Yes, that would be great. Do you have those? We're all set. We're ready Do you like to listen to an audio clip? Yes, that would be great. (00:25:14)

Do you have those? We're all set. We're ready Oh great, which one would you like to hear? Let's the grandmother. Do you see one listed with the grandmother? (00:25:21)

race, hopefully you do and Again I apologize. I don't see I see mrs. At Mrs. Something I can only see if first few letters. Let me see here. I'll see if I can pull it up real quick And my apologies, he says he's ready to go. Okay. Yeah, go ahead and roll the clip if you would let's hear the grandmother Standing on the inside, but I could see him real good and I looked down and I heard You know how wind will blow up, you know a swift like And I looked out and my grandson was standing there and under this fire it looked like Black thing And it was right over his head and We're standing straight up and I was so astonished that I couldn't say anything I could see him and under this star This fire had him all covered to the ground and I could see him and under this fire and and I could see him trying to say something and Just a few minutes And this thing just like that and left and he ran to me and when he did the outside of his Flesh was falling off of his face and the hair was burned on his forehead so far up it had burned the top of his hair off and I grabbed him real quick and The lady that was there with me said Oh put some water on it. I said no, but about that time The lady that was there with me said Oh put some water on it. (00:27:23)

I said no, but about that time I Pulled him away from me. He was locked around my waist and I Said to him I said, oh The skin was falling off of his face. And so about that time his grandpa Grandfather Drove up and I said Charles is burned real bad. Take him to the doctor and so he taking him to the hospital to the emergency room and Dr. Badger was on duty and Dr. (00:28:00)

Badger was on duty and there and so he said well, he'll have to go put him in the hospital and He said when then he came on back and I went on up and he said I don't understand this burn he said What kind of burn is this? And I said, I don't know dr. Badger and I've been telling what I've seen And I think he thought well, I was mad Right at that time and I said doctor. I'm telling you the truth. I said this whatever burned him come from these Right at that time and I said doctor. (00:28:37)

I'm telling you the truth. I said this whatever burned him come from these Right out of mid Air and just lit down over his head and I still think he thought I was had lost my mind see and so then his face began to swelling and Of course, they didn't know what the outcome was gonna be that night. He is eyes were so blue Of course, they didn't know what the outcome was gonna be that night. (00:29:00)

He is eyes were so blue He his little face was oh just well real big and he just Wanted to scratch it Continually we I had to sit by his bedside 24 hours Around the clock keep him from scratching his just turn the skin off It is so bad and they didn't under eat the doctor didn't understand that either Then he got where he could come home and It didn't leave a scar and I stayed by the child's bed Just nearly around the clock myself until he got Or he could stay by himself without scratching and then of course we leave in a couple hours a day But then she had put glasses on him last year because of this The doctor there said it was cause of this burn Is that the clip Dave That's it. That's the grandmother. Yeah, and did that we just heard McDonald there for just one second, right? Yeah, correct That's it. (00:30:14)

That's the grandmother. Yeah, and did that we just heard McDonald there for just one second, right? Yeah, correct Very in there. Yes Yeah Wow, very interesting the different things she said but you know one one of the things that is puzzling to me and you know I know this is kind of a gruesome topic for a lot of people. I think it is I know this is kind of a gruesome topic for a lot of people. (00:30:27)

I think it is But you know, she's talking about parts of his face falling off. The guy has no scars Yeah, don't you think that is really really another strange aspect to this? (00:30:37)

It's it's very strange And in fact when you look through and we don't have time to obviously go into all of them But when we go through the newspaper accounts The police were at odds to try to figure out what was going on and rightly so They approached this from a very practical standpoint One of the initial possibilities they thought might have happened was because this was June 2nd Maybe someone since it's only a month from July 4th. Maybe someone had a Roman candle a Maybe someone since it's only a month from July 4th. (00:31:09)

Maybe someone had a Roman candle a Block or two over and they fired a Roman candle off and the ball of fire This fiery saw was actually a ball of fire from a Roman candle that hit him in the face They were never able to substantiate that in fact later newspaper accounts say that there was no there was no merit to that It was just one possibility that they were exploring Another one was that because it was a laundromat and you have boilers Maybe some steam jetted out and burned him on the face or another one had postulated another officer That may be a ball of lint had flown out of one of the vents that ignited and hit him in the face Yeah, but when they went on site they could find no telltale signs And in fact, they couldn't even find areas of burning on the ground now for those that are familiar with the southwest there's a soil highly packed dense clay like soil called Kalechi and Charles had told me recently that that's basically what was back there. There was no vegetation was just very hard Charles had told me recently that that's basically what was back there. (00:32:07)

There was no vegetation was just very hard It's almost like a natural concrete if you will, right? And he said that's all that was back there and they tried to see if there was any burn marks But there was really nothing to burn because of the this Kalechi that was back there. It makes good adobes, too I believe there or that whole composition, but we're ready to go into break now I do think that you know, there's so many strange aspects To this we got a lot to cover and we are going to during this break We are going to make another attempt at trying to make things happen and that will be the video clip Hopefully we'll be able to do that. So hang in everyone. We'll be right back right after these messages Hopefully we'll be able to do that. (00:32:47)

So hang in everyone. We'll be right back right after these messages Hey everybody, welcome back to the show we took a break there and we tried our darndest to get the Video clip which also has really good audio So this is what I'm going to attempt to do. I'm currently in the middle of downloading this to my laptop and what I'm going to do or what I'm gonna say again when I'm going to attempt to try to do is Capture the window get it through the software. So the people on YouTube can get a bonus at the end of this show Capture the window get it through the software. (00:33:19)

So the people on YouTube can get a bonus at the end of this show And the podcast listener can hear the audio of it of the interview with the witness This is a when you do how long ago to do that particular interview David That was last fall. So last fall. So this happened last fall the interview. It's really good So that is going to hopefully be a bonus to YouTube Hi, it's always tricky setting up the audio on a situation like that I will do my best be patient with me as soon as we end the show tonight and hang in there if you want a bonus What is it about 20 some odd minutes something like that? (00:33:57)

About 11 minutes actually 11 minutes. Okay, you'll have 11 minutes after the end of the show. Sorry over at KGR a radio We can't do that over there, but hopefully the listener will get to hear that So let's let's continue on We have a actually we have an audio clip. We were talking about playing Can you go into the detail of that one in particular? (00:34:20)

Yes, absolutely. So Obviously, I've recently interviewed the witness but again James McDonald to his credit Started looking into this case four years after it had occurred so the recording we heard earlier with the grandmother was conducted in 1968 and Right around that same time frame give or take a day He had reached out to the mother of Charles and while speaking with Charles's mother He said by any chance would Charles happen to be there and she's it's like yes, he's right here So the next clip we're gonna hear is Charles the burn victim four years after the incident Relaying details to dr. James McDonald. All right roll it Relaying details to dr. (00:35:03)

James McDonald. All right roll it As you Well, let's see maybe I'm still not right clear on that Was it was it entirely above you like somebody holding something above or did it fit around you? (00:36:00)

I see did it come down the alley. How did you first see it? And then it dove down Come down it but it didn't go top of me just kind of went down And like what's gonna go through my body? But it didn't ever touch. Yeah, I covered my body I Don't know I Don't know Oh That's really amazing really amazing Yeah, and and I should mention the fact that this was a very devout conservative Pentecostal family They were business owners again the skeptics and people will laugh at the case and probably try to Derail it and say well these people were a bunch of UFO believers it was quite the opposite and at the time they never sought publicity and so When people try to look at an alternate explanation, well, what is the alternate explanation? (00:39:02)

Did he accidentally injure himself and they concocted this UFO story? It just doesn't seem to be something that they would do it's not within their frame of mind to do something like that and The other suggestion is well, did they intentionally burn him? And for what reason I mean It's very strange. It does not fit the makeup of these individuals based on what I've learned about them It's very strange. (00:39:23)

It does not fit the makeup of these individuals based on what I've learned about them And again, there was there was no profit to be gained. There was no money to be had in fact Charles in my recent interview with him He stated that you know, a lot of people probably thought we were trying to make money I said well quite the contrary said you incurred a week's worth of hospital bills not to mention follow-up medical Bills I said quite the contrary you guys incurred quite a bit of cost as a result of this and So it was very interesting and all of these years in the 56 years since this happened in Interviewing him recently. He told me he confided in me that he thought Interviewing him recently. (00:40:01)

He told me he confided in me that he thought Whatever this was in 1964 that it must have been something military That went off range from either White Sands missile range in New Mexico or Holloman Air Force Base They weren't thinking of UFO in the sense alien spacecraft. So again, these aren't space cadets Fashioning or constructing a story like this and it wasn't until I met with him And he started thinking about this after 56 years that many thoughts and ideas started to come to the surface that he hadn't thought about in decades literally decades and In fact, I'll be sharing additional video Interviews that touch on that at the upcoming conference in Eureka Springs, Arkansas, where I'll be presenting this material Did he ever? (00:40:48)

Did he ever become like really emotional when he I mean, this is like dick, you know picking at an old scar I hate to say that terms kind of but it kind of fits this one, right? Did it did he ever get like it was too much for him or was he it was he able to talk about it? (00:41:03)

He was able to talk about it well but I'm really glad you bring that up because that was always in the forefront of my mind as I was interviewing him In fact when I first as I mentioned earlier knocked on his door completely unannounced and wanted to dredge up this incident from what was then 55 years ago and So I was trying to be as delicate as possible yet. Try to be to the point So I was trying to be as delicate as possible yet. (00:41:26)

Try to be to the point but No, and in fact in some of the the comments that I have in another clip which as I mentioned I'll be sharing at the conference He states that he's okay with it now that you know Initially, it was something strange. He couldn't wrap his mind around it but pretty much myself my family we all just kind of as he said put it in the closet tried to forget about it and just move on with our lives and Again harboring under the notion that this must have been something military and I will concede And I think probably many of your audience members are sitting there thinking as they're listening to this This doesn't sound like something high-tech. It sounds like a bad lawnmower. It's belching fire and belching black smoke This doesn't sound like something high-tech. (00:42:11)

It sounds like a bad lawnmower. It's belching fire and belching black smoke It doesn't fit the model of what we would think would be advanced technology But at the same time in talking with Charles last fall He indicated that but knowing what we have with drones today. He goes I would think it would be something like a drone But he said but knowing what our drones do today to look back to 1964 and he went back to how this thing mimicked his movements. Yeah, it would quickly move like this. He said 1964 and he went back to how this thing mimicked his movements. (00:42:40)

Yeah, it would quickly move like this. He said Now thinking about it He goes I'm beginning to question the military explanation because I can't believe we would have something like that And then he posed the question to me he goes and even if we did have that Why would they seek out and burn an eight-year-old child and I and I countered that with well One could use the same argument Charles. Why would extraterrestrials fly vast distances just to burn an eight-year-old child? He goes. Well, that's true One could use the same argument Charles. (00:43:04)

Why would extraterrestrials fly vast distances just to burn an eight-year-old child? He goes. Well, that's true He goes I I agree with you on that one. He goes it doesn't he goes no matter how you look at it It doesn't make any sense David it happened Yeah when you were looking into this head, you know a lot of times something like this will go into Unexplained mysteries or has anyone ever done a story about this case over the years that you're aware of Well, there's been slight references to it John Schuessler good friend and colleague John Schuessler former international director of MUFON John wrote physiological case report where he documented in very small paragraphs just a quick synopsis of UFO incidents over the last several decades involving burn victims or radiation cases or electromagnetic effects on the body and He does have a quick little blurb about it and references the April Bulletin and Subsequent to the April Bulletin. The article was published in Fate magazine and apparently an issue of the National Enquirer as late as 1970 Subsequent to the April Bulletin. (00:44:08)

The article was published in Fate magazine and apparently an issue of the National Enquirer as late as 1970 You know six years after the incident so there have been references to it, but nobody's taking the time to say Well, let's go back and investigate this case or let's go talk to this witness. And what's interesting is also touching on what we Started talking about the beginning of the show looking at these old cases Charles told me point-blank if you came knocking on my door 15 20 years ago I probably wouldn't talk to you about this and I looked down and my wife was there with me We both looked at him and I said, well, why are you willing to talk about it now? (00:44:42)

And he said one because I know I've gotten to know you and I know you're doing this for the right reasons You're trying to present the truth and trying to find answers to this mystery and he said but second of all he goes You know, I'm in my early mid-60s He said I'm to the point now in life where I don't care who sees this. I don't care who hears about it He said I'm to the point now in life where I don't care who sees this. (00:45:05)

I don't care who hears about it There's a lot of skeptics out there, but if people want to believe it, that's fine If people don't want don't want to believe it, that's fine, too He goes I'm just to the point in my life where I don't care anymore. I Can totally relate to that? Yeah And so yeah So I think it's important sometimes to revisit these cases Even if these witnesses were hesitant to come forward in the wake of these encounters with the passage of time with As I think you alluded to being able to deal with the situation both mentally psychologically Sometimes they're in a better place to start relaying this information, right? Right. Why don't we queue up that last clip? (00:45:45)

It's the mother right is the interview with the mother. So if you would I don't think I have any images of her but Let's roll the the case of the mother. Okay? (00:45:55)

I How body. And he ran to her and she grabbed him to try to smother it. So apparently he looked like he was on fire. He, as long as this happened, and he was quite young when this happened, he never changed his story. And of course, I had thought, since this has happened in the last few years, his eyes, I had them tested not too long ago and they seemed to be getting worse. From what Dr. Taylor has told me. And he told me that body. (00:47:45)

And he ran to her and she grabbed him to try to smother it. So apparently he looked like he was on fire. He, as long as this happened, and he was quite young when this happened, he never changed his story. And of course, I had thought, since this has happened in the last few years, his eyes, I had them tested not too long ago and they seemed to be getting worse. From what Dr. Taylor has told me. And he told me that the nature of the cause of his having to wear glasses was the heat from the fire. He said that the heat from the burns caused eye damage. On his left ear he has one scar that you can see. But from the burns, had you seen him, it would have been unbelievable. They had a detective and they had police all down there. And from my understanding, they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police the nature of the cause of his having to wear glasses was the heat from the fire. (00:48:15)

He said that the heat from the burns caused eye damage. On his left ear he has one scar that you can see. But from the burns, had you seen him, it would have been unbelievable. They had a detective and they had police all down there. And from my understanding, they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. (00:48:20)

And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. (00:48:40)

And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they had a detective and a police officer. And they validated all of his burns or did I hear anything else about it? So I don't know, but I do know they sent a detective and police and they could find nothing, you know. Dr. Graham wasn't even scorned. (00:48:54)

It's unexplainable, that's all I can tell you. I've often thought about it and wondered what it was myself. That's a clip? Yeah. Yeah, and it was interesting, piggybacked with that was in talking with Charles, one of the epiphanies, if you will, that came to him, not having thought about this in decades. He says, now as a parent, he goes, I never really stopped to think about the effect that this had on my mother. (00:49:22)

He goes, thinking of her at work, getting a call from my grandmother and hearing this seemingly outrageous story that this thing came out of the air and severely burned his face and his head. (00:49:35)

He goes, as a parent now, I'd never thought about this. And he looked at the camera as I'm talking to him. He said, I'm only now starting to think of these things because you're dredging a lot of stuff up in my mind. He said, I've never really stopped to think of the emotional impact that I had on my mother to receive that call. (00:49:51)

And he said, you have daughters. He goes, imagine if your wife called and said, one of your daughters was burned severely from the head up. You would want answers, you would want an explanation. And so there were many things like this that he had never thought about until we really started having this dialogue and this discussion. Martin, I don't know, did we bring up image number 10? (00:50:13)

I just wanted to share that. That was my wife and I with Charles. I will bring that up right now. Just right now I have a image of basically of Charles today, but we'll pull that up. Oh, great. Yeah, and here it goes right here. Picture of you, your lovely wife, and Charles together is up on YouTube. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we spent an entire weekend together with him and his wife and got a chance to really get to know them and their business that they run in the city that they live in, in the Southwest, and really had a chance to get to know them a little bit as individuals. (00:50:47)

We talked about a lot of stuff beyond the case. And we've developed a pretty good friendship as a result. And if you can describe, it's a little tiny room. For some reason, your camera focuses off. The little tiny room you're into and you stuffed back in there and he has a business he's running and employees are wondering what the heck's going on. It was a running joke that weekend. (00:51:12)

We were bringing in lots of equipment and he has a little, I would say, was probably six foot wide office by about maybe 10 foot long or 11 feet long. And so Charles is in there at his desk. I'm there behind the camera set up on a tripod and my wife is wedged in the back corner of the room near the door. And we're conducting this interview and then both before and after the interview, we're out in a little private area there where some of the workers could see us. (00:51:42)

And a couple of times the employees had to come over and ask him a question. And he said, yeah, he goes, everyone's trying to figure out who you guys are and what you're doing here. He goes, I just told him, we're thinking about selling the business and your investors. So even his employees don't know about this incident. And like I said, his wife didn't even know all the details until that weekend. (00:52:05)

Wow. When you spoke with him, did he ever talk about like putting this thing away and out of his life? (00:52:12)

Like for, you know, I mean, did he have an intention to that just be out of his life and not ever talk about it again? Pretty much. I mean, pretty much until, like I said, I knocked on his door. He said there were some subsequent articles that were written. And in fact, I think we might have one of those. I think it was image number seven. (00:52:30)

If we've pulled that up yet. Yeah. The black blob article. Yep. Okay. And that was done a few years. Yeah. So, oh yes, I've had that up many times. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's for sure. That was one that was written about a year or two after the incident. So there were some subsequent articles written and people trying to attempt to reach out to them. (00:52:51)

But most of those overtures were, you know, pretty much rebuffed by the mother who really didn't want to talk about it anymore. Again, they know something happened. They were never able to grapple with what happened. And in fact, you know, Charles had some really interesting insights. He said, if someone were to come to me today and ask me what happened, how can I as an adult looking back 55 years, 56 years now, and tell them with clarity what happened when my mother, my father, my grandparents were there and they were witness to it in the aftermath and they couldn't speak to it at the time. (00:53:32)

How can I as a child then, adult now, look back on it and try to provide any more clarity? He goes, the only thing I can do is share the details like I shared with you and try to answer as many questions as I can. But he said, I still don't know what it was. He says, some people say it's military. Some people say it's a UFO. (00:53:50)

He goes, I have no idea. But he said, at the end of the day, I know something happened. What was his recovery process like? Well, for the first week, as I mentioned, he was in the hospital and I think we have one, I think at image number four, where you can actually see where he was discharged from the hospital. There's a news article. (00:54:13)

I have that up right now. Oh, great. And that was the Lubbock Avalanche. And if you notice, that was Lubbock, Texas that ran that article. There was another one in Odessa, Texas, but beyond that, I could not find anything other than local, in other words, Hobbs New Mexico newspaper and the Lee County newspaper that ran most of the articles. And you can follow his recovery on almost a daily basis. (00:54:38)

They had a news article updating his status on a day-by-day basis during that week he was in the hospital. So again- And any lasting effects? The only lasting effects is he still has some hearing deficit in his right ear. And as I mentioned, he has to wear glasses. (00:54:56)

Yeah. And in general, I know you said that he has, he had no idea, he can't tell you today or he couldn't tell you then what it is, but what type of speculation at the time did you, when you were digging around, what did you find with it? You already mentioned that, you know, what the hoaxy things like lint, burnt lint, and the, you know, but what were some of the more logical or something that seemed logical as far as what they were? (00:55:29)

Yeah, one of the other things that the police were postulating is that he was just playing with matches. And in fact, he remembers one of the officers talking to him in the hospital stating, we're now, we're gonna go back to that location. And if we see any matches, he goes, you're gonna be in big trouble. And they thought he was playing with matches and somehow set his hair on fire, which obviously still would not account for the major injury to his face. (00:55:53)

I mean, it certainly that would set your hair on fire, but I don't think it would cause the severity of burns that he incurred. But he said that they went on location and they couldn't find any matches. He goes, and I even remember as a kid thinking, I hope one of the people in the laundromat didn't light a cigarette and throw a match down because then they're gonna blame that on me. (00:56:10)

He goes, I remember as a kid thinking that, that if they do find something, that then they think I did make this whole thing up, which obviously he didn't. And again, we have the grandmother's testimony. She physically witnessed the object. We're not just talking about she witnessed him being burned. She saw the object. She saw the object inflicting this harm upon him. And again, we're talking a devout Pentecostal family. (00:56:36)

UFOs were probably not even in their mindset. Exactly, yeah. Now, one thing from the last clip I'd like to touch on, the FBI was involved. The grandmother's blouse was sent into the FBI laboratories. Some of the skin that had fallen off his face, they had taken skin scrapings. They had sent that in and his T-shirt that he wore, they sent that in to have it analyzed. (00:57:01)

The family never heard back on it. They never heard another word. And so in December of last year, I filed a FOIA request with the FBI to try to get my hands on the case file, any information, the laboratory results, anything that we could look at from the FBI standpoint. Within about two to three weeks, I got a rejection letter stating that because it involved third-party individuals, it would violate privacy issues. (00:57:27)

And so they terminated my request. So I redrafted the exact same request, took my name off, put Charles's name on there, mailed it to Charles, had him sign and date it, and he submitted it under his name. (00:57:41)

So they can't say it's third-party at that point. Interesting way. He received a letter back, and they stated they needed some additional information. And this isn't actually too long ago since I spoke with him last, but he was wrestling with whether he wanted to go through the time and effort of filling out all the additional paperwork and submitting it. So I need to follow up. (00:58:01)

Again, he doesn't want to invest a lot of time in this. He was nice enough to afford me time to interview him, but he's not into UFOs, and he has a business to run. He has a family. But I am gonna be talking to him to see if he has resubmitted that. And if he hasn't, I hope I can convince him to resubmit that in the hopes that we can get some FBI laboratory results. (00:58:22)

Okay, one thing I wanna clarify, and I don't think we've touched on this at all, is that he, even though his name is out there, he has a different name. And he doesn't want people to, he wants no publicity, basically. He runs a business. He's known in his little town that he's in. Lots of people come into this business, and he just does not want any fanfare at all. (00:58:51)

And so he has nothing to gain. And basically, you know how to connect to him. And I encourage the person out there wanting to connect to him to forget about it. Right, right. Because he doesn't wanna hear from anyone, really. Yeah, and if someone does truly feel, or if maybe someone's had a similar experience, that they would like to contact him, if you wanna contact me through my website, I would be more than happy to forward the email on. (00:59:17)

I just can't guarantee you're gonna get a reply. But I will promise your audience that I will forward any emails I receive to him. And then at that point, it's upon him if he wants to reply. Excellent. (00:59:30)

(2024-06-30)